Necromancer/Earth Dreamer; would this work?

[tadkins]

Thought about this concept earlier and was wondering if it could actually be made to be an effective build. The character is a necromancer wizard who essentially makes a living off of mining and other digging operations, uses the Earth Dreamer powers to discover the most profitable spots, and then sets up base with a cadre of risen skeletal workers to dig it up.

Figure it could make a baseline for an interesting character, as well as give it something to do in between adventurers. Earth and Death can come together in a meaningful way; after all, most people bury their dead beneath the ground, and mark said graves with large slabs of rock.

[Sception]

sounds fine to me, but while the undead can do some basic lifting/pushing/carrying, you'll still need some living servants to perform the actual mining, at least the parts involving skill checks, because those will be too complex for mindless servants. And if your skilled workers are living, they might object to their unliving co-workers. Expect to run into trouble with the unions, is what I'm saying.

If you're at least medium high level, awaken undead from the spell compendium should be able to get you some skilled undead workers for your mining operations, though they won't necessarily be the best at what they do, and depending on your DM's interpretation, you might need to find corpses of those who actually possessed mining skill to animate. Perhaps using dreamer powers to find a previously collapsed mine with the remains of dead workers trapped within?

a couple skeletal or zombie corpses of large burrowing creatures could also be useful. Perhaps you might skip mine shafts entirely, and use hollowed out bullette or purple worm zombies to transport workers/materials from underground mines with no surface openings at all?

[tadkins]

Thanks for the response. :)

I like the idea of having undead burrowers to do the hard parts. Finding the bodies of actual workers using the Earth Dreamer class would also help tie it in a bit more to the rest of the character. Perhaps I could also have, later on, a few necromancer apprentices to act as foremen for the more skilled parts of the operation?

[OldTrees1]

Skeletons can do skill checks but they cannot have skill points (being mindless) so they cannot do any "trained only" skill checks.

[tadkins]

Hmm...

I forget, if the character had a relatively high skill in Profession: Mining, can they teach some of their skill to others, namely the undead serving it? Also, are there any semi-intelligent but controllable undead that might serve better for the purpose if skeletons can't do it?

[OldTrees1]

Hmm...

I forget, if the character had a relatively high skill in Profession: Mining, can they teach some of their skill to others, namely the undead serving it? Also, are there any semi-intelligent but controllable undead that might serve better for the purpose if skeletons can't do it?

Mindless undead (Int -) cannot have or gain skill points. They can follow simple commands and are allowed to make skill checks (but not of "trained only" skills since they do not have skill points)

Intellegent controllable undead come from Rebuke Undead, High DC Command Undead / Control Undead spells, the Animate Dread Warrior spell or from the Awaken Undead spell.

[tadkins]

Mindless undead (Int -) cannot have or gain skill points. They can follow simple commands and are allowed to make skill checks (but not of "trained only" skills since they do not have skill points)

Intellegent controllable undead come from Rebuke Undead, High DC Command Undead / Control Undead spells, the Animate Dread Warrior spell or from the Awaken Undead spell.

Aye, it's why I'm questioning whether using mindless skeletons to do it would work. They can hammer at the ground with a pick but that's it. When you're digging with a goal (gathering ore, unearthing artifacts, etc) I'm questioning whether they can handle it.

[OldTrees1]

Aye, it's why I'm questioning whether using mindless skeletons to do it would work. They can hammer at the ground with a pick but that's it. When you're digging with a goal (gathering ore, unearthing artifacts, etc) I'm questioning whether they can handle it.

This is where the DM steps in and defines "simple" in "simple commands". The rules say that Zombies can make Profession(Miner) checks since that can be done untrained. However whether they can recognize ore depends on the command issued and the DM's definition of "simple".

If one of my PCs ordered their zombies to "dig for ore", the zombies would be unresponsive. They probably know "dig" but would not understand "ore". However if one of my PCs ordered some zombies to "dig" and others to "gather shiny objects" I would probably have the zombies start to separate out shiny objects including some ores along with other things.

[tadkins]

Awesome, sounds good. :)

Was looking around for some info on Profession: Mining, and if I am correct then you don't need more than one person with ranks in the skill to perform the work that would require a trained skill check, which would be the necromancer herself. She could perform the more technical and managerial aspects of the operation while the undead workers spend day and night on the more menial parts.

As I think more on the character I will probably end up putting some Loremaster levels into the mix. Appraise is a fitting skill I think, as is the Lore ability to know more about the rare artifacts or strange minerals she and her crew might be discovering as they work.

I think it's something I would really like to play one day once I refine the actual concept and build. It seems like a flavorful character that could also give the DM some plot hooks in between adventures. DM could send claim jumpers against her territory, or even a cadre from the Church of Pelor "protesting" her operation and methods.

Thanks for the help. :)

[Sception]

Also depends in part on whether your DM will allow 'follow so-and-so's orders' as a simple command. Some will, and I recommend it, since it makes party necromancers much less obnoxious (one necromancer controlling even two or three minions can be a serious drain on party time, but if instead the necromancer is allowed to command each minion to follow the orders of a different party member, then each party member gets a pet - giving them some incentive to get along with the necromancer - and actions are much more manageable). There are specific spell and item ways to force the issue (SpC's undead lieutenant, etc), but they're kind of a hassle, so it's better if you don't have to.

Leaving one miner in charge of various undead workers still has the problems with living and dead not quite getting along. On top of the foreman not wanting to deal with undead, undead are evil, even the mindless ones, and uncontrolled mindless undead follow a 'kill the living' instinct - depending on DM this might manifest when they have no standing orders, or they might default to interpret unclear orders in aggressive ways. And even if you don't need to deal with that, living workers need light, food, water, air, and risk blabbing about the operation at local towns, bringing down an army of paladins and good-aligned clerics who know exactly how much of a threat a necromantic mining operation represents.

And while one skilled foreman can lead a number of unskilled but intelligent living laborers, things are much iffier for mindless workers. The foreman will have to be constantly watching over each of their shoulders, slowing the work down considerably.

Awaken undead really is the way you want to go. Be aware that there are multiple versions of this spell. The most recent version is from the spell compendium. Note that the Libris Mortis version doesn't mention anything about skills, but the SC version refers you to MM290. Since skeletons and zombies don't normally have any skills, I believe all skills are cross class for them, and between that and their low int, they're not going to be the best miners. Zombies, by virtue of having more hit dice, will have more points, but their slow actions will likely cancel that out. Hopefully your DM will allow you to give them skill focus for their feat/one of their feats, depending on how many hit dice we're talking about.

The awakened undead remain under your animate dead pool, but if you create other skeletons or zombies they'll go uncontrolled, and being intelligent now, they aren't great command undead targets. If you have rebuking, then that control pool can hold them, but you kind of want to use that for spawning undead. So just be aware that if you're going to have a bunch of undead miner workers, you might have to create new ones after animating other targets, or make sure that you never animate so much or so large a creature at a time that your workers go uncontrolled. (ie, save half the pool for workers, and release combat minions into your command undead spell pool immediately so there's always open control space to animate more without releasing the workers).

A foreman is still a good idea, particularly if you can't cast 7th level spells, yet. Animate Dread warrior is the best bet for your foremen, although you only get it two levels earlier. It's a 6th level sor/wiz spell from Unapproachable East. It has an obnoxious XP cost of 250/HD of animated creature, but for a few low level experts, that's not too bad. Unfortunately UE is both a setting specific book and 3.0 content, so it might not be available to you.


Another option is, yes, grabbing the leadership feat to pick up a few lowish leveled followers (ideally clerics, wizards, sorcerers, dread necros, etc, but adepts and experts will do if your DM doesn't allow PC classed followers), preferably undead (necropolitan if possible, though you may have to pay for the ritual yourself, and the followers may lose a level for it), with some ranks in mining. If they have their own access to rebuking or the command undead spell, that also lets you bypass the 'can I order it to follow their orders' question. If they're high enough level to have their own animate dead castings, that's extra hit dice buckets for you to fill, and you can awaken their undead for them when you're able.

Special note if taking leadership: If your DM allows PC leveled followers, they're about to regret it, and here's why: Your arcane caster followers, and clerics with the undeath domain, gain command undead. This spell lasts for days per caster level, completely dominates mindless undead, and allows no save. So you can create dozens of undead of the largest size and greatest power you can create, ignoring hit die limits, and allowing your followers to take control of them via command undead, then order them to follow your orders (or go through the spells or items needed to pass control over if your DM doesn't like that). It's pretty easy to get a control pool of towering undead seige engines and air forces of zombie dragons this way with hit dice totals in the thousands.

I mean, you've gotta use all that obsidian you're mining for something?


Additional general tips; if wizard, don't forbid transmutation. Several useful spells from that school, particularly polymorph any object, an eighth level spell which will allow you to transform any corpse into any other corpse (might need same kingdom, ie lizard corpses for dragon corpses). Obviously great for necromancy. Need a half-fiend Colossal Gold Dragon corpse? Good luck finding one of those, but PAO's got you covered. It's an end game spell, but one you'll want around if you live that long. If you're a cleric, you can pick it up with the trickery domain (conveniently available to clerics of Nerull). Dread Necros and wizards who foolishly banned transmutation can also grab access via the Arcane Disciple feat. The only downside is that your massive undead siege engines are then vulnerable to dispel magic or anti-magic fields, but eh, nothing's perfect.

Actually, it should work on already animated mindless undead, too (same class, related kind, same intelligence), which could save you a lot of obsidian, but then again by the time you can cast PAO, obsidian is either no longer an issue (two level pale master dip, or spell stitching, or your mine is operational), or soon won't be an issue anyway (Plague of Undead: 9th level spell - animate dead plus max HP/hit die and costs 100 gold per casting, which is basically for free at that level, rather than 25 per hit die animated).

Other tips: always keep a bunch of minimal hit dice undead around, preferably piles of uncontrolled zombie rats stuffed into crates and boxes. Turn attempts go from low hit die to high, so they'll burn out on all the weak undead before messing with your real servants. Consider them the 'canaries in the coal mine' as it were. Extra points if you created them with destruction retribution to heal your servants and harm living enemies when they pop. Seige engines should be stuffed with them - nail barrels of zombie rats inside the rib cages of giant skeletons, or have huge & bigger zombies swallow them.

[OldTrees1]

I just checked the Profession skill. Apparently I was wrong. Profession is a trained only skill and thus Mindless creatures cannot use Profession (Miner) to dig.

A skeleton probably is still able to dig but the profession miner rules would not cover the skeleton digging.

[tadkins]

Wow, thanks Malisteen. A lot of good info here to take in. Going to save this page for later reference for when I do get to create and play the character.

Chances are I probably wouldn't be allowed or able to put together the actual operation until higher level, so those choices you've listed would be able to apply then. As for foremen, I did picture them being living (possibly tomb-tainted) apprentices of my necromancer, so they'd have no problem being around the undead.

Was planning on banning Enchantment/Evocation, so no issues not having POA there.

And of course, a questionable and lucrative operation would need to keep base defenses in mind. I love the rat swarms idea; will probably have crates of them next to the tent/building where the necromancer runs the operation. If there's room in the undead pool, I'll probably have a large beefy fighter or two nearby as well. The cool thing about this build though; if things go south for the necromancer, she's always got Earth Dreamer abilities to fall back on; namely Earth Glide, and there's not much you can do to stop an escape with that one. :)

[tadkins]

I just checked the Profession skill. Apparently I was wrong. Profession is a trained only skill and thus Mindless creatures cannot use Profession (Miner) to dig.

A skeleton probably is still able to dig but the profession miner rules would not cover the skeleton digging.

Yep, I figured. I'd probably just have some skeletons mindlessly dig, while others push around ore carts and gather it up. The more technical aspects of the operation would be handled by the necromancer herself, who would have the Profession: Miner ranks.

[Sception]

Probably best to take leadership and have your cohort manage the operation, using their own animate dead pool plus your awaken spell for workers without having to eat into your personal control pools.

[tadkins]

Probably best to take leadership and have your cohort manage the operation, using their own animate dead pool plus your awaken spell for workers without having to eat into your personal control pools.

I was taking into account that necromancer-type characters controlling a lot of minions in combat are generally an annoyance to typical game groups. For the most part I'd only be bringing one or two powerful minions to our adventures, with the operation taking place in the background, so to speak.