Using skills without a roll...

[Ignominia]

Ok,

So this may be a ridiculous question, but I just wanted to make sure I was understanding it correctly and didn't miss something.

First, you DO NOT automatically fail a skill check on a 1 or automatically succeed on a 20 (Like attack rolls or saves)

A few key skills have come up in my gaming group that keep getting used over and over, and it seems that the group has NO chance of failure... for example.

DC 15 Tumble check lets you move at half speed through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity...(+2/ each additional square)

So, does this mean that a PC with a 15 in Tumble can ALWAYS move through a threatened square without provoking an AoO?

Same for Jump checks... 10' gap... 10 in Jump skill, No roll required?

UMD, 20 in UMD, no roll required to use a wand?

[Treme]

absolutely right, if you have enough ranks and stats then no roll is required. 1 is not always a fail and 20 is not a guaranteed success.

[Ignominia]

Beautiful!

Thanks for the reply!

[XmonkTad]

Close: in your examples you only need 14 ranks in tumble, and 19 ranks in UMD, because you always add at least one from the d20.

Is there some reason this doesn't sit well with your group? In order to have 14 ranks in a class skill you have to be mid level, have a circumstance or luck bonus, or have a competence bonus magic/masterwork item. It's not something just anyone can do.

Contrast that with just how dysfunctional the rolling can make things. A commoner can, 1 time in 20, jump 10 feet strait up in the air. Natural 20s act a lot more strangely in skill checks than lots of ranks do.

[Allanimal]

Ok,
DC 15 Tumble check lets you move at half speed through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity...(+2/ each additional square)

So, does this mean that a PC with a 15 in Tumble can ALWAYS move through a threatened square without provoking an AoO?


Yes (well, actually you only need a +14 in tumble to auto succeed since you add the d20 result...)

The DM may impose situational modifiers though, due to terrain or other conditions, that may increase the DC. So you may not always auto succeed.

[Ignominia]

Close: in your examples you only need 14 ranks in tumble, and 19 ranks in UMD, because you always add at least one from the d20.

Is there some reason this doesn't sit well with your group? In order to have 14 ranks in a class skill you have to be mid level, have a circumstance or luck bonus, or have a competence bonus magic/masterwork item. It's not something just anyone can do.

Contrast that with just how dysfunctional the rolling can make things. A commoner can, 1 time in 20, jump 10 feet strait up in the air. Natural 20s act a lot more strangely in skill checks than lots of ranks do.

Thanks, that does make sense... and its not that it doesn't sit right, its just this is the first time our group has gotten to a level where we are at a point that this has come up. Wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some trivial sentence hidden at the bottom of some table somewhere :smallsmile:

[Yuki Akuma]

You can skip rolling if there's absolutely no point in rolling (you want to activate a wand with a +19 modifier in UMD and no penalties in place), sure. But remember that you absolutely are rolling the dice as far as the rules are concerned - you're just 'taking 1'.

[Crake]

Ok,

So this may be a ridiculous question, but I just wanted to make sure I was understanding it correctly and didn't miss something.

First, you DO NOT automatically fail a skill check on a 1 or automatically succeed on a 20 (Like attack rolls or saves)

A few key skills have come up in my gaming group that keep getting used over and over, and it seems that the group has NO chance of failure... for example.

DC 15 Tumble check lets you move at half speed through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity...(+2/ each additional square)

So, does this mean that a PC with a 15 in Tumble can ALWAYS move through a threatened square without provoking an AoO?

Same for Jump checks... 10' gap... 10 in Jump skill, No roll required?

UMD, 20 in UMD, no roll required to use a wand?

It's worth noting that for tumble its not per additional square, its per additional foe per action. You can tumble at half speed in a complete circle around a single foe and only need 1 tumble check.

[Luciandevine]

The tumble rule was actually one rule that I was glad that they changed when Pathfinder came out. I understand that it's to reflect your skill or ability to do something without leaving yourself vulnerable to an attack of opportunity. I just didn't like that it didn't take anything about the BBEG into account when deciding the dc of the roll, a creature that's bigger, attacking faster, or just more skilled for example. This was one of the reasons why I was glad they implemented the Combat Maneuver Defense stat. You can still tumble through their skill if you're good enough, but it's significantly harder against bigger, and often more challenging things, the Tarrasque, dragons, Cthulu for example.

[Dusk Eclipse]

While it certainly needed to be harder in those situations, PF tumble acrobatic checks are night impossible since CMD scales so much faster than skill checks.

[Luciandevine]

I will concede that point, but on the same note, when you're fighting such high level things, it's not entirely difficult to get things to help you avoid being grappled, a Ring of Freedom of Movement for example, or things that help you avoid poisons, diseases, etc. Granted, eating an attack of opportunity isn't ideal, but something like this could also be solved by just delaying your action until after your Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian goes, letting them soak up the attack of opportunity, letting you not only move freely through their range, unless they have combat reflexes, but also moving into what is likely a flanking position. In my opinion, it forces the party to think more strategically than just putting 14-dex modifier ranks in tumble/acrobatics and stopping there.