Can you get 8th level vestiges and 9th level maneuvers?

[Averis Vol]

Hello playground.

In an upcoming game, I decided that I wanted to try to a somewhat difficult build. I want to play a warblade/binder. Now this game doesn't have to be particularly high OP, and I'd prefer not to be that guy with the way overpowered build. But as I started to put the pen to paper, I wanted to know, even if I don't use it, if there is a way to get both 9th level maneuvers and bind 8th level vestiges without going gestalt?

There's really not much synergy between the two, so I'm not expecting much, but I figured I'd ask. As a second point though, what is the highest that both can get in 20 levels? and what would be the better of the two to focus on in the case of not getting both 9ths?

Thanks in advance!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

In a word, no, but that's because vestiges cap out at 8th level rather than 9th. The most levels you can sacrifice in a non-initiator class and still get 9th level maneuvers is 6, and that's no where close enough for 8th level vestiges, leaving you to either go gestalt or homebrew.

[A_S]

It's possible using the cheesy interpretation of Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion maneuver advancement, I believe. I'll check.

*edit* No, it's still not.

*edit 2* Yeah, so, by cheesy RAW, a Binder 13/Legacy Champion 1/ToB Class 1/Legacy Champion +5 (advancing the ToB class) gets 7th level vestiges and 8th level maneuvers. You can drop 2 levels of LC for Binder to swap that to 8th level vestiges and 7th level manuevers.

[Averis Vol]

In a word, no, but that's because vestiges cap out at 8th level rather than 9th. The most levels you can sacrifice in a non-initiator class and still get 9th level maneuvers is 6, and that's no where close enough for 8th level vestiges, leaving you to either go gestalt or homebrew.

woops, don't I look silly. Alright, I was just wondering either way. Thanks.

[MeeposFire]

Outside of a homebrew vestige I have not seen anyway of doing this pre epic.

The vestige I saw was a 6th level vestige and granted some maneuvers and a stance (among other goodies).

[Flickerdart]

Couldn't you use bloodlines somehow? Your best summonable vestige, as well as the highest level maneuver you can learn, is determined by your effective level in the class. So with 3 levels of a major bloodline and Improved Binding you only need 12 binder levels to bind 8th level vestiges. Those levels are also granting you 9 ILs, so you could use your remaining 5 levels to take an initiator and get 14th level initiating, or 7th level maneuvers. No cheesy RAW required, either.

Of course, you could combine bloodlines and cheesy RAW interpretation of Legacy Champion, and that would probably get you nines, but I don't really want to do the math on that.

[Vincent Dragon]

I don't think it's possible to get 8th vestiges while progressing maneuvers (even using Uncanny Trickster and/or Legacy Champion, but i don't know how it would be with Bloodlines), but it is possible to get 9th maneuvers + 6th vestiges with:

Binder 10 (+2 of Improved Binding)/Initiator 4/Legacy Champion 6

All of your non-initiator levels totalize 16, so +8 to your Initiator level, which is 12 by now, with +5 from Legacy Champion +1 class feature you got Initiator 17 and Binder 12, which is 9th maneuvers and 6th vestiges.

With Bloodlines probably would be possible to achieve 9th and 8th.

EDIT:

With Bloodlines you get 17 Binding & 17 Initiator level.

Binder 12 (+2 Improved Binding)/Initiator 8

+3 Bloodlines to each = Binder 17 and Initiator 11
1/2 of Binder level = 6
Initiator 11 + 6 = 17

Now you got both 9th maneuvers and 8th vestiges.

[Averis Vol]

Outside of a homebrew vestige I have not seen anyway of doing this pre epic.

The vestige I saw was a 6th level vestige and granted some maneuvers and a stance (among other goodies).

Gonna have to look into that and check with my DM, nice find.


Couldn't you use bloodlines somehow? Your best summonable vestige, as well as the highest level maneuver you can learn, is determined by your effective level in the class. So with 3 levels of a major bloodline and Improved Binding you only need 12 binder levels to bind 8th level vestiges. Those levels are also granting you 9 ILs, so you could use your remaining 5 levels to take an initiator and get 14th level initiating, or 7th level maneuvers. No cheesy RAW required, either.

Of course, you could combine bloodlines and cheesy RAW interpretation of Legacy Champion, and that would probably get you nines, but I don't really want to do the math on that.

Hmmm, that might work. If not 9ths/8ths, at least 8ths and 7ths liek you said. Good call.

[Averis Vol]

I don't think it's possible to get 8th vestiges while progressing maneuvers (even using Uncanny Trickster and/or Legacy Champion, but i don't know how it would be with Bloodlines), but it is possible to get 9th maneuvers + 6th vestiges with:

Binder 10 (+2 of Improved Binding)/Initiator 4/Legacy Champion 6

All of your non-initiator levels totalize 16, so +8 to your Initiator level, which is 12 by now, with +5 from Legacy Champion +1 class feature you got Initiator 17 and Binder 12, which is 9th maneuvers and 6th vestiges.

With Bloodlines probably would be possible to achieve 9th and 8th.

EDIT:

With Bloodlines you get 17 Binding & 17 Initiator level.

Binder 12 (+2 Improved Binding)/Initiator 8

+3 Bloodlines to each = Binder 17 and Initiator 11
1/2 of Binder level = 6
Initiator 11 + 6 = 17

Now you got both 9th maneuvers and 8th vestiges.

that.......is really damn awesome! Might have to see if my DM would allow that. We've never really used bloodlines before so it's a little up in the air. Either way, sick.

[RFLS]

I think Binder 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 10 with Improved Bingding gets you an IL and BL of 17 each, but you won't actually have a 9th level maneuver.

[Vincent Dragon]

I think Binder 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 10 with Improved Bingding gets you an IL and BL of 17 each, but you won't actually have a 9th level maneuver.

Yeah, that's a problem, if only Legacy Champion could be acquired before 11, then the second level of the Initiator class would be taken at 20 level.

That's why Bloodlines or getting only 6 levels of Legacy Champion are better ways to do this, but i don't like Bloodlines very much, they're really cheesy.

[Flickerdart]

That's why Bloodlines or getting only 6 levels of Legacy Champion are better ways to do this, but i don't like Bloodlines very much, they're really cheesy.
Bloodline cheese stems exclusively from the fact that it's not exactly spelled out what bloodline levels are in the game. If you just treat them as un-buy-offable LA, like you should, they're perfectly fine. Using Legacy Champion for extra IL is just plain old cheese, though.

[A_S]

I think Binder 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 10 with Improved Bingding gets you an IL and BL of 17 each, but you won't actually have a 9th level maneuver.
How are you getting your IL up to 17 in this build? Even with a generous reading, LC/UT only get double-counted for IL if you use them to advance your initiating class' features, and you can't do that and advance Binder at the same time...

[Spuddles]

Start with True Dragon.

Get yourself 9th level casting/8th level binding. Probably anima mage.

Use wyrm of war sovereign archetype to trade out spells known for maneuvers. See dragons of eberron. Not sure on recovery method.

[Lord Haart]

Captain Lousy Writing to the resque!

Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you
add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to
determine your initiator level. See the prestige class descriptions
in Chapter 5 for details.© ToB, page 39.

While there is an arguement that RAI, it applies only to ToB prestige classes other than Bloodstorm Blade (those that contain the words "You add your full deepstone sentinel levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known", but RAW it seems to apply to all prestige classes there are but Bloodstorm Blade (and even there, the evidence is anecdotal — BB doesn't say it gets half IL in class description, but it follows from the example statblock, which is an iffy source). I believe there was a thread on this recently, but i'm too lazy to find it now; google yourself. Get your master to agree with the later interpretation (i suggest bribery), prestige out of Binder early and go to town.

[RFLS]

How are you getting your IL up to 17 in this build? Even with a generous reading, LC/UT only get double-counted for IL if you use them to advance your initiating class' features, and you can't do that and advance Binder at the same time...

RAW, PrCs give you full IL no matter what.

[A_S]

Ah, this is different cheese than the one I was thinking of. Carry on!

[prufock]

Couldn't you use bloodlines somehow?

A man after my own heart.

Effective binder level and initiator level are both level-based calculations, so bloodlines work wonderfully. You need effective binder level 15 (since you'll be taking Improved Binding) and initator level of 17.
Human with Magical Training and Precocious Apprentice at level 1, Improved Binding at level 3, Weapon Focus at 6.
Binder 1/Crusader 6/Knight of the Sacred Seal 1/Scion of Dantalion 1/Anima Mage 1/Bloodline 3
EBL: 18
IL: 17
At level 13. Bloodlines, broken as hell. After that, well, take whatever you darn well please.

Alternatively, ask your DM to look at the Adaptations section of Anima Mage and see if you can do an initiator adaptation.

[relytdan]

this seems to be the best answer...

Human with Magical Training and Precocious Apprentice at level 1

Binder 5 /Uncanny Trickster 3/ Warblade 2/ Legacy Champion 10

the trickster and LC with Improved Binding feat = EBL 17th which sees 8th level binding

warblade and both PRC's count as full IL: 15 + 2.5 from binder = IL: 17.5 which sees 9th level maneuvers

[MeeposFire]

Gonna have to look into that and check with my DM, nice find.



Hmmm, that might work. If not 9ths/8ths, at least 8ths and 7ths liek you said. Good call.

Let me know if you want it as I know where to find it. As a bonus it has a LOT of other vestiges in it too (of varying quality some are good and some not so much).

[Psyren]

PF's Occultist can do this easily if you simply choose one of the caster archetypes that gets binding progression, like the Soul Weaver Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/radiance-house---wizard-archetypes/soul-weaver) or the Pactsworn Pagan Druid. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/radiance-house---druid-archetypes/pactsworn-pagan)

[Spuddles]

PF's Occultist can do this easily if you simply choose one of the caster archetypes that gets binding progression, like the Soul Weaver Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/radiance-house---wizard-archetypes/soul-weaver) or the Pactsworn Pagan Druid. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/radiance-house---druid-archetypes/pactsworn-pagan)

I'm not sure how those help OP, unless you're using wyrm of war.

[Averis Vol]

Let me know if you want it as I know where to find it. As a bonus it has a LOT of other vestiges in it too (of varying quality some are good and some not so much).

If you have a link that would be great; always lookin to expand my list of good homebrew.

[Averis Vol]

PF's Occultist can do this easily if you simply choose one of the caster archetypes that gets binding progression, like the Soul Weaver Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/radiance-house---wizard-archetypes/soul-weaver) or the Pactsworn Pagan Druid. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/radiance-house---druid-archetypes/pactsworn-pagan)

I have heard good things about the PF Occultist, might try it instead.

[MeeposFire]

If you have a link that would be great; always lookin to expand my list of good homebrew.

Reshar, The Ninefold Prince of Blades
Level 6
Binding DC:23
Reshar gives you power and knowledge of the Sublime Way, his wisdom, and hardiness of body.

Legend:Reshar was a human master swordsman. He struggled to gain true knowledge of the Sublime Way and he went to achieve this in a revolutionary method, by mastering all nine of the disciplines. After mastering all nine disciplines he took pupils from each discipline and created a temple in the mountains. After a century passed the temple was well established but Reshar still had not defeated his primary adversary, truth. In order to find truth Reshar decided that he had to travel the world. Before Reshar left he gave each master of a discipline a unique sword to represent his discipline. Reshar then told each master that as long as the swords were kept in the temple all would be well, but if any were stolen then the temple would fall. Reshar left the temple with the knowledge that he had created a great school that would never fail which would continue his teachings. Soon after the temple was out of sight he met an old man on the road. The man was alone and it seemed that his hands were injured previously as they were bent out of shape. Reshar asked the man if he wanted help but the old man refused. During his long conversation the old man let slip that the greatest adversary that nobody can defeat was death itself and therefor that only by defeating death would Reshar ever find truth. Reshar then left the man and traveled and meditated on beating death. As Reshar was about to meditate himself beyond the boundaries of death a voice intruded on his thoughts, "They are gone" the voice said and in that moment Reshar saw that his temple was destroyed from within. Reshar then realized that he had lost his true chance of immortality by the continuation of his art. With this his eyes flew open and he saw the speaker, the old man with bent hands holding the Rapier Supernal Clarity. The old man's shape then changed to the form of a Rakshasa. With this shock Reshar missed his chance of defeating death and passed on to being a vestige though not before he took the Rahshasa with him. It is said that if someone can bring all nine blades together and perform a special ritual then Reshar may return the world to harmony and restore the temple of the nine swords.

Special Requirement:The binder must carry a representation of at least one weapon from each martial discipline when he creates the seal. These do not have to be actual weapons they could be charms or the like as well. Reshar also hates Haures and will not bind with a binder who is bound to Haures, or allow you to bind to Haures if you are already bound to Reshar.

Manifestation: First you see a tiger pacing in the blackness. The tiger starts scratching and biting itself. The tiger is then stabbed in the heart by an unseen dagger. The sun then appears and seems to beat down on the dying tiger furthering its anguish. As the sun sets the tiger lights on fire. The tiger screams in a human voice and soon after the tiger is attacked by white ravens. When there is only the skeleton left the birds are scattered by an iron cage that then surrounds the remains. The cage then swallows the tiger and becomes enveloped by stone. The stone then grinds until even it falls away and all that is left is a diamond. Inside the diamond stands the spirit of a man defiant with gray hair who then speaks to you.

Sign: While you are bound the weapons you used in the binding ritual leave tattoos on your body seemingly at random places and sizes. If you did not use the weapons (such as if you have the ignore requirements feat or you used an unarmed strike as your discipline weapon) you gain tattoos of the nine swords themselves for each weapon you did not have (and of that discipline).

Influence: While influenced by Reshar you must take up any challenge to you no matter how small or trivial. You also must try to convince any warrior to take up the Sublime Way as that is Reshar's favored style.

Granted Abilities: Reshar grants you the ability to strike like a warblade, be quick like a swordsage, be tough as a crusader, his knowledge of the Sublime Way and it's skills, and lastly his personal longevity.

Way of the Nine:The binder gains access to 5 martial maneuvers from any discipline and one free stance from any discipline. If the binder desires more stances he must take them as one of his martial maneuvers. At effective binder level 15 and twenty you gain one more maneuver (max of seven). These are your maneuvers known and your maneuvers readied. You must still follow all restrictions placed upon a martial adept including prerequisites. Your initiator level is equal to your effective binder level minus two. So a 13th level binder is a 11th level martial adept and thus has access to 6th level maneuvers. Only your EBL counts towards your initiator level for this ability. Once a maneuver has been expended that particular maneuver is recovered automatically 5 rounds later. Once recovered you may use the maneuver again. All of your maneuvers are supernatural even if they are normally not. Lastly all save DCs for the maneuvers should be calculated by the traditional binder method of DC=10+1/2 binder level+ cha modifier.

Sage's Quickness: The binder gains a +3 to his initiative bonus. This increases to +4 at 15th EBL and gets +1 every 5 levels after.

Crusader's Vigor: As the Mettle ability.

Know the Way: you gain a +10 to Martial Lore checks and may use the skill untrained. You also gain +2 to a disciplines primary skill for every maneuver you pick from that discipline from your Way of the Nine vestige feature and a +1 to Martial Lore checks to identify a maneuver from that discipline. For example if you took 3 Diamond Mind maneuvers you would gain a +6 to concentration checks and an additional +3 to martial lore checks to identify a diamond mind maneuver.

Gray but Young, Quick yet Wise: The binder is now under the effect of the Timeless body ability of the druid class except that any aging penalties are removed for the duration of the bind to Reshar. Reshar was quick to act but he was also very wise and gives you a +4 to your wisdom score.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1051726?page=29


There you go a link to the old vestige thread. Sadly the index no longer works.

[MeeposFire]

Split this up as it was too much for one post to make sense.

I also really like this vestige. It was at first a joke but I think it is a good thematic vestige with some fun if you know the reference.

Spinal Tap, The Shark Sandwich

Level 7 (Spinal Tap thinks that it is an 11th level vestige)
Binding DC:34

A loud vestige Spinal Tap gives you great powers over sound itself.

Legend: Nobody is quite sure where Spinal Tap came from. What is known is that it is made of several different beings who utilize strange musical instruments. They are very loud, in fact they are so loud that it is believed that they must be using some magic to amplify the sound. Binders have spent centuries trying to figure out what the lyrics in their song mean but thus far no pattern can be found. One mad binder said he figured out what Spinal Tap was; he said that Spinal Tap was a fictional joke played upon the masses lampooning a group of musicians. Unfortunately everybody thought they were real and somehow this belief was strong enough that they became real (such as Adhan became real in Planescape). The group became unpopular and "died" from lack of thought. Since they were not truly alive they had nowhere to go and became a vestige. All the binders thought this was ludicrous and they laughed at him though Spinal Tap still seems to offer no other clues to its previous life.

Special requirement: You must have at least one percussion instrument, string instrument, or a vocal amplification devise to bind Spinal Tap. Lastly you also need one stone of any size, one dinner roll, and at least a pound of a dense metal. All of these objects are not lost when you bind to Spinal Tap.

Manifestation: First great lights shine from the sky into a dark shadow revealing a giant horned skull. As the light progresses across the shadow a great noise occurs though only the binder can hear it. The light shows off several men in strange outfits playing outrageous instruments, a small 18 inch round stone structure, and various other strange and unnerving things. As the noise gets louder the stage starts to crumble and things go wrong. After everything else has crashed and the music has died the horned skull, broken in many places it may be, flies up and begins bargaining with you.

Sign: Spinal Tap's sign is a bulge in your pants in the crotch area. If you look in your pants there will be a large cucumber in your trousers. This vegetable may be removed but a new one will always take its place and the old cucumber will vanish. If you are wearing no pants the cucumber will float in front of your genitalia as if it was covering you to protect your modesty. The most unusual part (as if it was not strange enough) is that this vegetable will react with anything used to detect metal, magical or otherwise. In addition if you have hair on your head it grows into a glorious Ape Drape.

Influence: Spinal Tap makes you have a strong feeling of being better than anybody else. This also makes you ask unreasonable demands from your party members such as demanding that they heat your bath water with alchemist's fire. They do not have to obey but you must demand. You also vie for creative control in any situation. If someone else was to come up with a plan, for instance, you would have to disagree with it and come up with a new plan. This could even be the same plan but you must try to take credit. Lastly you have an insatiable need to wear tight leather.

Granted Abilities:
Spinal Tap gives you the ability to use their tremendous sound as a weapon, their "great" ability at playing, and their ability to inspire fighting with their sound.

Power Chord: This ability grants the binder a sonic attack. This attack deals 1d4 for every two effective binder levels, though you must hit with a ranged/melee touch attack. After taking damage the target must make a fort save or be deafened for 2 rounds. This attack does full damage to objects and deals double damage to specially vulnerable creatures and objects (such as most glass). This is a standard action to invoke and the maximum range is 11 feat per binder level (treat this as 10 feet per level as the 11th foot is a fake no matter what you believe). Even though it is not required (as supernatural abilities have no explicit components) most binders perform this move by making a wine glass shattering, falsetto using, and mind numbing high note, though others perform a curious mandolin playing motion in the air with no mandolin!

Tune it to 11!: When you use your Power Chord ability you may decide to use this ability to augment its power. This takes no additional action and gives the Power Chord ability the benefit of the empower and maximize supernatural ability feats. After using this ability you may not use it again for 5 rounds.

School of Rock: Spinal Tap teaches you how to perform music though nobody believes that what Spinal Tap wants you to play is actually music. This results in a +16 competence bonus in perform checks with percussion, string, sing, and oration checks. You also have full proficiency with these types of instruments. You can also summon a normal instrument of any type that Spinal Tap gives you a bonus to. If you perform for money these bonuses only apply if you are not influenced by Spinal Tap. If you are influenced by Spinal Tap the bonuses do not apply as the people are put off by the "music" of Spinal Tap.

Inspirational Noise?: Even though most people can not stand Spinal Tap's music it does have a strange effect if used in battle. Spinal Tap can utilize the Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics abilities as a bard of your effective binder level. You do not need the ranks in perform to use these abilities. You still have to perform just like a bard does though. The method of performance is up to you though it should be in line with the types of performance that Spinal Tap gives you bonuses on. You may use an ability as long as you like but as soon as you stop the effect only lasts for five more rounds. After you stop performing you may not use this ability for five rounds.

Immunities: Since Spinal Tap is so used to loud noises they gives you some of their resistance. You are immune to sonic damage, deafness, and other sound based effects that you do not want to effect you.

Show Stopper: Spinal Tap loves having special effects when they perform and thus gives you the ability to make special effects. You may use ghost noise, prestidigitation, and pyrotechnics as the spells as a supernatural ability at will.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Bloodline cheese stems exclusively from the fact that it's not exactly spelled out what bloodline levels are in the game. If you just treat them as un-buy-offable LA, like you should, they're perfectly fine. Using Legacy Champion for extra IL is just plain old cheese, though.

It seems pretty clear to me that bloodlines are just taking an EXP penalty in exchange for some bonuses. They also give you advancement on level based abilities so that you don't fall behind your party. I don't see why you should use un-buy-offable LA.

[Flickerdart]

It seems pretty clear to me that bloodlines are just taking an EXP penalty in exchange for some bonuses. They also give you advancement on level based abilities so that you don't fall behind your party. I don't see why you should use un-buy-offable LA.
"Bloodline levels" is quite explicit. They are levels. The only time XP penalties are even mentioned is when you fail to take these levels on schedule.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure how those help OP, unless you're using wyrm of war.

They don't, I was being an idiot and overlooking the word "maneuvers" in my haste.

Though it's worth noting that the PF Occultist, like the ToB classes, gets half advancement from non-binding classes, so you can actually go Occultist 10/Initiator 10 and be treated as 15 in both. Not too shabby really.

[WhamBamSam]

It's stupid and cheesy beyond belief, limits your maneuvers pretty severely, and is dependent on Dragonwrought Kobolds being True Dragons, which is hotly contested, but this should work by RAW and doesn't require bloodline abuse or for all PrCs to increase IL.

Venerable Wyrm of War (Maneuver Variant) Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Sorcerer 1/Singer of Concordance 2*/Binder 5/Anima Mage 10/Jade Phoenix Mage 2

*Uses dragon auto-qualification cheese which might get books thrown at your head (though really, with this build, that might be unavoidable). Battle Sorcerer 3 might be a less cheesy alternative.

The maneuver variant of the Wyrm of War Sovereign Archetype allows you to permanently trade Sorcerer spell slots for equal level Tiger Claw maneuvers/stances known, and gives you an Initiator Level equal to your Sorcerer level. The variant isn't very well written, but my interpretation is that you don't get to add non-initiator HD/2 to it, since it says that the IL is equal to the dragon's Sorcerer level and specific trumps general. However, ToB PrCs which explicitly add their class level to IL, so you can sort of double dip with Jade Phoenix Mage, and scrape an IL of 17.

Progression:

Sorcerer 1 - Feat: Dragonwrought
Singer of Concordance 1
Singer of Concordance 2 - Bonus Domain: Knowledge, traded for Knowledge Devotion, Feat: Draconic Resevoir
Binder 1
Binder 2
Binder 3 - Feat: Extend Spell, Take Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to get effective Sorc level up to 4.
Binder 4 - Bonus Feat: Improved Binding
Binder 5
Anima Mage 1 - Feat: Martial Study (Whatever)
Anima Mage 2
Anima Mage 3
Anima Mage 4 - Feat: Persist Spell
Anima Mage 5
Anima Mage 6
Anima Mage 7 - Feat: Martial Study or Martial Stance (Whatever)
Anima Mage 8
Anima Mage 9
Anima Mage 10 - Feat Martial Study or Martial Stance (Whatever)
Jade Phoenix Mage 1
Jade Phoenix Mage 2

You end up with an effective Sorcerer level of 15, which results in IL 17 thanks to the two JPM levels, and an effective Binder level of 15, which is 17 for the purposes of determining what vestiges you can bind thanks to Improved Binding.

Sadly, since you only have spell slots up to 7th level to trade in, the only way to actually get high level maneuvers and stances is to Chaos Shuffle/Psychic Reformation around your feats for better Martial Study/Martial Stance selections at higher levels. On the plus side, you don't need Draconic Reservoir anymore once you undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, so you can achieve the maximum of 3 Martial Study maneuvers and one Martial Stance.

Between Anima Mage and your high Cha, you'll have some spell slots to spare even after trading a bunch of them in for maneuvers. As many as possible should go to Vestige Persisted Buffs (*cough*, Draconic Polymorph, *cough*) to make up for your crappy BAB and allow you to run around attacking with maneuvers.

These would be my maneuver choices for this build. It doesn't quite end up looking like a Binder/Warblade, but it's close. You'll have pretty much any Tiger Claw maneuvers/stances you might want up to 6th or 7th level, so I'm not going to bother listing them.

9th level Martial Study: Vanguard Strike, 15th level Martial Study: Daunting Strike, 18th level Martial Study: Castigating Strike, Jade Phoenix Mage Maneuver Known: Greater Divine Surge, Chaos Shuffle/PsyRef Martial Study(Vanguard Strike) to Martial Study(Strike of Righteous Vitality), Shuffle Draconic Resevoir to Martial Stance(Immortal Fortitude), Shuffle Martial Study(Daunting Strike) to Martial Study(Mountain Tombstone Strike, Raging Mongoose, or Girallion Windmill Flesh Rip).

[Averis Vol]

It's stupid and cheesy beyond belief, limits your maneuvers pretty severely, and is dependent on Dragonwrought Kobolds being True Dragons, which is hotly contested, but this should work by RAW and doesn't require bloodline abuse or for all PrCs to increase IL.

Venerable Wyrm of War (Maneuver Variant) Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Sorcerer 1/Singer of Concordance 2*/Binder 5/Anima Mage 10/Jade Phoenix Mage 2

*Uses dragon auto-qualification cheese which might get books thrown at your head (though really, with this build, that might be unavoidable). Battle Sorcerer 3 might be a less cheesy alternative.

The maneuver variant of the Wyrm of War Sovereign Archetype allows you to permanently trade Sorcerer spell slots for equal level Tiger Claw maneuvers/stances known, and gives you an Initiator Level equal to your Sorcerer level. The variant isn't very well written, but my interpretation is that you don't get to add non-initiator HD/2 to it, since it says that the IL is equal to the dragon's Sorcerer level and specific trumps general. However, ToB PrCs which explicitly add their class level to IL, so you can sort of double dip with Jade Phoenix Mage, and scrape an IL of 17.

Progression:

Sorcerer 1 - Feat: Dragonwrought
Singer of Concordance 1
Singer of Concordance 2 - Bonus Domain: Knowledge, traded for Knowledge Devotion, Feat: Draconic Resevoir
Binder 1
Binder 2
Binder 3 - Feat: Extend Spell, Take Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to get effective Sorc level up to 4.
Binder 4 - Bonus Feat: Improved Binding
Binder 5
Anima Mage 1 - Feat: Martial Study (Whatever)
Anima Mage 2
Anima Mage 3
Anima Mage 4 - Feat: Persist Spell
Anima Mage 5
Anima Mage 6
Anima Mage 7 - Feat: Martial Study or Martial Stance (Whatever)
Anima Mage 8
Anima Mage 9
Anima Mage 10 - Feat Martial Study or Martial Stance (Whatever)
Jade Phoenix Mage 1
Jade Phoenix Mage 2

You end up with an effective Sorcerer level of 15, which results in IL 17 thanks to the two JPM levels, and an effective Binder level of 15, which is 17 for the purposes of determining what vestiges you can bind thanks to Improved Binding.

Sadly, since you only have spell slots up to 7th level to trade in, the only way to actually get high level maneuvers and stances is to Chaos Shuffle/Psychic Reformation around your feats for better Martial Study/Martial Stance selections at higher levels. On the plus side, you don't need Draconic Reservoir anymore once you undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, so you can achieve the maximum of 3 Martial Study maneuvers and one Martial Stance.

Between Anima Mage and your high Cha, you'll have some spell slots to spare even after trading a bunch of them in for maneuvers. As many as possible should go to Vestige Persisted Buffs (*cough*, Draconic Polymorph, *cough*) to make up for your crappy BAB and allow you to run around attacking with maneuvers.

These would be my maneuver choices for this build. It doesn't quite end up looking like a Binder/Warblade, but it's close. You'll have pretty much any Tiger Claw maneuvers/stances you might want up to 6th or 7th level, so I'm not going to bother listing them.

9th level Martial Study: Vanguard Strike, 15th level Martial Study: Daunting Strike, 18th level Martial Study: Castigating Strike, Jade Phoenix Mage Maneuver Known: Greater Divine Surge, Chaos Shuffle/PsyRef Martial Study(Vanguard Strike) to Martial Study(Strike of Righteous Vitality), Shuffle Draconic Resevoir to Martial Stance(Immortal Fortitude), Shuffle Martial Study(Daunting Strike) to Martial Study(Mountain Tombstone Strike, Raging Mongoose, or Girallion Windmill Flesh Rip).

Oh man, that builds disgusting :smalltongue: Cool to see that it's actually possible though. For the game as it is, I've decided just to start as Human Binder 4/ warblade 2. It starts me with second level maneuvers and third level vestiges, and I'm okay with that. Thanks for the food for thought everyone.

[MeeposFire]

"Bloodline levels" is quite explicit. They are levels. The only time XP penalties are even mentioned is when you fail to take these levels on schedule.

I agree with you about them being levels (or at least it is what I recall from arguments so long ago) but as I also remember from that time this is a topic that should just be left alone! The evil it releases gives Vecna a fright. It is up there with ToB sucks, Psionics are overpowered, and vest against hellfire threads...

[Seer_of_Heart]

"Bloodline levels" is quite explicit. They are levels. The only time XP penalties are even mentioned is when you fail to take these levels on schedule.

I could swear they specifically say it doesn't count towards ECL which seems pretty clear to me. Sorry, if I wasn't so busy I'd look it up right now, I probably shouldn't even be on the forum right now. Its not an exp penalty in the game sense but in the sense that you spend exp on the bloodline levels instead of leveling up normally.

[Ezekiul]

Sorcerer 1 - Feat: Dragonwrought
Singer of Concordance 1
Singer of Concordance 2 - Bonus Domain: Knowledge, traded for Knowledge Devotion, Feat: Draconic Resevoir


Singer of Concordance requires the ability 3rd level divine spells does it not? Dragonwrought is strong but I don't know about 3rd level divine spells at level 1 due to needing to dip into a class with divine conversion, unless I need another lesson in the power of dragonwrought.

edit:
read through your handbook, could work but would definitely be an uphill battle with a DM.

[A_S]

I agree with you about them being levels (or at least it is what I recall from arguments so long ago) but as I also remember from that time this is a topic that should just be left alone! The evil it releases gives Vecna a fright. It is up there with ToB sucks, Psionics are overpowered, and vest against hellfire threads...
Don't forget "The tier system is stupid."

[WhamBamSam]

Singer of Concordance requires the ability 3rd level divine spells does it not? Dragonwrought is strong but I don't know about 3rd level divine spells at level 1 due to needing to dip into a class with divine conversion, unless I need another lesson in the power of dragonwrought.
Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.So by RAW, as a dragon, the Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype regardless of any other prereqs. There are a few really stinky cheeses that come from this, but I'm rather fond of some of the smaller tricks you can get out of it, such as the Singer of Concordance 2 dip for full spellcasting progression (it allows progression in any spellcasting class, not just divine ones) and a free devotional feat (generally Knowledge, but Travel and Strength are also decent options).

[MeeposFire]

Don't forget "The tier system is stupid."

Lol yea. Though I just noticed only one of what we mentioned was a rules question rather than just opinions being debated with facts. Lord I hate that hellfire debate.

[Averis Vol]

So by RAW, as a dragon, the Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype regardless of any other prereqs. There are a few really stinky cheeses that come from this, but I'm rather fond of some of the smaller tricks you can get out of it, such as the Singer of Concordance 2 dip for full spellcasting progression (it allows progression in any spellcasting class, not just divine ones) and a free devotional feat (generally Knowledge, but Travel and Strength are also decent options).

Yea I've seen this. Wasn't one of the uses to dip sorcerer and take the like, 8th level substitution for it or some insane thing like that? gettin the spells, BaB and saves and keeping them as long as they didn't take another level of sorcerer?

Either way, it's of no consequence because dragonwraught kobolds aren't considered true dragons in my group*, so the point is moot (I'm the normal DM, so I generally know all of what flies and what not.)

*I personally think the logic that since they get older they are true dragons is ridiculous, but this isn't the place for that.

[lunar2]

Yea I've seen this. Wasn't one of the uses to dip sorcerer and take the like, 8th level substitution for it or some insane thing like that? gettin the spells, BaB and saves and keeping them as long as they didn't take another level of sorcerer?

Either way, it's of no consequence because dragonwraught kobolds aren't considered true dragons in my group*, so the point is moot (I'm the normal DM, so I generally know all of what flies and what not.)

*I personally think the logic that since they get older they are true dragons is ridiculous, but this isn't the place for that.

this particular cheese doesn't require them to be true dragons, it only requires them to be dragons, which they explicitly are. the dragonwrought feat changes the kobold's type to dragon.

also, what is the vest against hellfire?

[Averis Vol]

this particular cheese doesn't require them to be true dragons, it only requires them to be dragons, which they explicitly are. the dragonwrought feat changes the kobold's type to dragon.

also, what is the vest against hellfire?

Ahh, my bad. I just knew it had to do with kobolds.

the vest against hellfire is whether strongheart vest soulmeld can reduce the con damage from hellfire warlocks hellfire blast. Some say it can as it's damage that can be reduced, others say it can't because the damage isn't coming from an attack against them. Had to look it up myself.

[lunar2]

meh, soon as that argument comes up, just switch to naberius and avoid the whole issue.

[Averis Vol]

meh, soon as that argument comes up, just switch to naberius and avoid the whole issue.

Agreed, but the ability to have options is always nice, and with the strongheart vest opened up, it allows a different fluff for a character. The mechanical defect of the two is really negligible as they both do the same thing really.