Is there a way for a divine caster to be their own holy symbol? [Archive]

TuggyNE

2013-11-30, 02:12 AM

Sometimes it doesn't make sense to need something artificial in order to channel one's faith. Does D&D (or PF, I guess) have support for that idea?

And no, that psionic class that shall not be named does not count.

The Oni

2013-11-30, 02:14 AM

If you were a Warforged you could carve your holy symbol into yourself and use that. For that matter, you could probably do that even if you were a normal fleshbag.

Flickerdart

2013-11-30, 02:19 AM

The RAW on holy symbols is as follows: " A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith." This states pretty clearly that the divine focus must be an item, and drawing on yourself does not an item make (though I don't know if "item" is defined by RAW anywhere). Curiously, many of a cleric's spells don't actually require a holy symbol.

BoED, CDiv, or CChamp might have some specific rules on tattooing symbols or such that trump this.

ericgrau

2013-11-30, 02:24 AM

BoED, CDiv, or CChamp might have some specific rules on tattooing symbols or such that trump this.

I know PF has a trait or something that does. Wouldn't surprise me if 3.5 did too.

IAmTehDave

2013-11-30, 02:28 AM

Jeff the Green

2013-11-30, 02:30 AM

There's the Worldly Focus feat from Faiths of Eberron. It only works for spellcasting, though.

Naomi Li

2013-11-30, 02:33 AM

Oracles (from Pathfinder) satisfy all divine focus requirements automatically without need for any equipment. Personally, I think that the "curse" they have is a side-effect of creating an internal holy symbol, and one that generally has far more boons than limitations. (Granted, those limitations are generally a lot easier to become aware of in-universe)

TuggyNE

2013-11-30, 03:08 AM

I know PF has a trait or something that does. Wouldn't surprise me if 3.5 did too.

Happen to remember the name?

There's the Worldly Focus feat from Faiths of Eberron. It only works for spellcasting, though.

That's probably enough for most purposes, at least. Still would kind of like to be able to turn etc without one though.

Oracles (from Pathfinder) satisfy all divine focus requirements automatically without need for any equipment. Personally, I think that the "curse" they have is a side-effect of creating an internal holy symbol, and one that generally has far more boons than limitations. (Granted, those limitations are generally a lot easier to become aware of in-universe)

Hmm. That's certainly something to consider as well, esp with refluffing possibilities.

Flickerdart

2013-11-30, 03:09 AM

"Hi, I'm a cleric of Kord, and these are my biceps" *Flex* *turn undead attempt*
Just watch out for when someone tries to sunder your biceps, since you've declared them to be an item.

Baka Nikujaga

2013-11-30, 03:11 AM

I know PF has a trait or something that does. Wouldn't surprise me if 3.5 did too.

Yes, Pathfinder does, through the Birthmark (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/faith-traits/birthmark) trait. As for 3E, as mentioned above, a brand might apply...though, failing that, the Summon Holy Symbol Orison, perhaps?

Spore

2013-11-30, 03:26 AM

I am talking slightly over the edge fanatic here but couldn't you permanently embed a metal insignia into your skin? Not like a piercing but completely under the skin.

TuggyNE

2013-11-30, 04:33 AM

Just watch out for when someone tries to sunder your biceps, since you've declared them to be an item.

Item, yes; object, no. Disarming still poses a potential problem, but I'd say it's "well-secured", so +4 and you can't be disarmed unless you're pinned.

Yes, Pathfinder does, through the Birthmark (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/faith-traits/birthmark) trait.

OK, thanks.

As for 3E, as mentioned above, a brand might apply...though, failing that, the Summon Holy Symbol Orison, perhaps?

While mechanically almost suitable, flavor-wise it's lame to not actually be free from holy symbol dependency.

SiuiS

2013-11-30, 04:43 AM

Maginomicon

2013-11-30, 06:24 AM

There's a feat somewhere in forgotten realms that lets you turn components and foci into runes, which can then be carved into anything. It suggests a key ring of plaques, but I went with "tattooed into my musculature" instead.

If that applies to divine foci, you'll be fine.
You're likely referring to the Runesmith feat (Races of Faerûn). It only applies to non-costly material components, and it essentially provides a way to convert a spell's material component into a focus worth 1gp that you must craft. I guess it'd be useful if you want to be able to cast a spell without your spell component pouch, and if you combine it with the Nonverbal spell feat (Planar Handbook) you might have something really neat conceptually (imagine having a conversation with someone, and mid-conversation they start gesturing and wow what a neat necklace where did you get that OH MY GODS A FIREBALL), but other than that I'm not sure how useful it would be.

IAmTehDave

2013-11-30, 06:35 AM

You're likely referring to the Runesmith feat (Races of Faerûn). It only applies to non-costly material components, and it essentially provides a way to convert a spell's material component into a focus worth 1gp that you must craft. I guess it'd be useful if you want to be able to cast a spell without your spell component pouch, and if you combine it with the Nonverbal spell feat (Planar Handbook) you might have something really neat conceptually (imagine having a conversation with someone, and mid-conversation they start gesturing and wow what a neat necklace where did you get that OH MY GODS A FIREBALL), but other than that I'm not sure how useful it would be.

Assuming you need to craft 1 rune for each spell you know with noncostly material components, then it might make sense for a spells known type who doesn't want to advertise (by having a honking great neon sign on their belt called a Spell Component Pouch) that they're a spellcaster. A bracelet with a bunch of (nonmagical?) runes on it is a lot less conspicuous. Also, that feat confers a penalty to the spellcraft check of anyone trying to ID your spell. (Unless they have the Runecraft feat too)

SiuiS

2013-11-30, 06:40 AM

If that's the one I'm thinking of, then Ye, it's not as useful. I remember there being a discussion on the theoretical use of a similar feat with consult focuses though... Ah well. Guess I'm jumbling things together.

KillianHawkeye

2013-11-30, 08:07 AM

I am talking slightly over the edge fanatic here but couldn't you permanently embed a metal insignia into your skin? Not like a piercing but completely under the skin.

You could be like Teal'c from Stargate SG-1 and have your god's holy symbol emblazoned in gold on your forehead. :smallamused:

http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080327055022/s__/stargate/images/8/8a/Teal%27c_COTG.jpg

Jgosse

2013-11-30, 08:22 AM

"Hi, I'm a cleric of Kord, and these are my biceps" *Flex* *turn undead attempt*

a cleric of the Armstrong family?

Jgosse

2013-11-30, 08:30 AM

I am talking slightly over the edge fanatic here but couldn't you permanently embed a metal insignia into your skin? Not like a piercing but completely under the skin.

kinda like a jaffa from SG1 http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/ousuisje/SG%20fangurl%20stuff/Thunkalicious/SG-1/otherguysAQOcap2t.jpg

KillianHawkeye

2013-11-30, 08:37 AM

kinda like a jaffa from SG1 http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/ousuisje/SG%20fangurl%20stuff/Thunkalicious/SG-1/otherguysAQOcap2t.jpg

Uh........... kinda beat you to it, pal.

Jgosse

2013-11-30, 08:53 AM

Uh........... kinda beat you to it, pal.

Yeah I noticed after.

Particle_Man

2013-11-30, 10:01 AM

"Hi, I'm a cleric of Kord, and these are my biceps" *Flex* *turn undead attempt*

Flex Mentallo! Gotta love Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol. :smallcool:

This would be useful for the Vow of Poverty clerics that technically can't have a holy symbol (although most DMs I know allow a wooden one).

Valwyn

2013-11-30, 12:41 PM

Be a cleric of yourself. That should fix the problem. :smallbiggrin:
Alternatively, Dungeonscape introduced Sanctified Armor, a mundane upgrade that makes your armor count as a holy symbol.

bekeleven

2013-11-30, 12:46 PM

I think we're all missing the obvious solution here.

True Mind Switch with an awakened animated object holy symbol and then PaO back into yourself.

Come on guys, this is basic stuff.

Necroticplague

2013-11-30, 01:41 PM

I think we're all missing the obvious solution here.

True Mind Switch with an awakened animated object holy symbol and then PaO back into yourself.

Come on guys, this is basic stuff.

Actually, I was thinking about awakened objects as well, though not in that way. Those things can take class levels on their own, so it's perfectly valid for a holy symbol too be a cleric and use itself to cast. Whether you could play as one is more questionable (barring mind switch shenanigans), but it is possible.

Than

2013-11-30, 04:10 PM

Pathfinder has Reliquary Arms and Armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/create-reliquary-arms-and-shields) with a special bonus on Consecrate and Desecrate.

Don't forget the handy dandy Holy Symbol Tattoo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/toys-games-puzzles#TOC-Holy-Symbol)!

Flickerdart

2013-11-30, 04:12 PM

Actually, I was thinking about awakened objects as well, though not in that way. Those things can take class levels on their own, so it's perfectly valid for a holy symbol too be a cleric and use itself to cast. Whether you could play as one is more questionable (barring mind switch shenanigans), but it is possible.
You can only awaken a humanoid construct.

Karnith

2013-11-30, 04:17 PM

I am talking slightly over the edge fanatic here but couldn't you permanently embed a metal insignia into your skin? Not like a piercing but completely under the skin.
Dragon Magazine #359 has rules for embedded holy symbols that function basically as you described. It costs 100 gold for the specially-prepared holy symbol and requires a DC 15 Craft (Body Modification) or Heal check to actually put the thing under your skin.

JeminiZero

2013-11-30, 04:26 PM

How about making it a hard-to-detect item? For example, have your holy symbol be a false tooth in your mouth, like the Teeth of Delvar Nar from Tome of Magic (maybe you worship the tooth fairy). And to turn undead, you smile.

The Oni

2013-11-30, 04:28 PM

"Hi, I'm a cleric of Kord, and these are my biceps" *Flex* *turn undead attempt*

Seriously want to make Alex Louis Armstrong as a cleric now. Also, was ninja'd with this reference.

Flickerdart

2013-11-30, 04:29 PM

Brookshw

2013-11-30, 04:34 PM

"Hi, I'm a cleric of Kord, and these are my biceps" *Flex* *turn undead attempt*

Morning prayers must be something like body building contest. Love it!

Emperor Tippy

2013-11-30, 04:41 PM

You can only awaken a humanoid construct.

But you can PAO an Animated Object into a Shield Guardian and then cast Awaken Construct on it before dispelling the PAO.

Have a Solar with Tenacious Spell: Permanency make the Animate Objects spell permanent and you are golden.

Flickerdart

2013-11-30, 04:44 PM

Have a Solar with Tenacious Spell: Permanency make the Animate Objects spell permanent and you are golden.
There's an Urban Druid variant in Dragon that can have a Small Animated Object as an animal companion, so you don't need to bother with permanency.

TuggyNE

2013-11-30, 07:07 PM

I think we're all missing the obvious solution here.

True Mind Switch with an awakened animated object holy symbol and then PaO back into yourself.

Come on guys, this is basic stuff.

Needs moar ice assassin.

Be a cleric of yourself. That should fix the problem. :smallbiggrin:

RAW-wise, you'd still need a holy symbol, since there's no real provision for a deity that says "hey dudes, I don't have a holy symbol because I'm cool like that".

Alternatively, Dungeonscape introduced Sanctified Armor, a mundane upgrade that makes your armor count as a holy symbol.

Not bad, but not quite it either.

Dragon Magazine #359 has rules for embedded holy symbols that function basically as you described. It costs 100 gold for the specially-prepared holy symbol and requires a DC 15 Craft (Body Modification) or Heal check to actually put the thing under your skin.

Seems to be the same cost as PF's tatoo, so at least that's consistent. Both are at least close to what I'm thinking, though since there's still some sort of visible physical symbol thing, not quite there.

Emperor Tippy

2013-11-30, 07:18 PM

Seems to be the same cost as PF's tatoo, so at least that's consistent. Both are at least close to what I'm thinking, though since there's still some sort of visible physical symbol thing, not quite there.

Make your embedded holy symbol invisible.

Granted, I would just home-brew the following:

Exceptionally Blessed
Prerequisite: Able to cast first level divine spells
Benefit: For whatever reason your body is especially aligned with the power of your faith, allowing you to always act as if you were holding a Holy Symbol of your faith.

There you go, spend the feat and get on with life. RAW, IIRC, the closest you will get is Dragon #359.

animewatcha

2013-12-01, 01:03 AM

For those with BoEF, can't one have holy symbol on crotch ( can't remember exact rules of needing to display or not ) as a ****-ring or something? Heck, turn undead by pelvic thrusting.

Telok

2013-12-01, 02:11 AM

Worship your ideal self.
Gain any two domains (ideal!) and grant your own spells.
Your own body is now your holy symbol.

Alternately: Get you face tattooed and worship the ideal of facial tatoos.
Gain any two domains based on what your facial tatoo is.
Your face tatoo is the obvious holy symbol.

It's sad that this works by RAW.

EugeneVoid

2013-12-01, 02:12 AM

For those with BoEF, can't one have holy symbol on crotch ( can't remember exact rules of needing to display or not ) as a ****-ring or something? Heck, turn undead by pelvic thrusting.

:smallfrown:

TuggyNE

2013-12-01, 03:38 AM

Your own body is now your holy symbol.

This is the part I'm stuck on.

Necroticplague

2013-12-01, 07:49 AM

You can only awaken a humanoid construct.

Sorry, I meant intelligent item, not awakened.

Than

2013-12-01, 12:00 PM

Doesn't Turn Undead / Channel Energy require that you openly display your holy symbol?

Coidzor

2013-12-01, 12:37 PM

If you were a Warforged you could carve your holy symbol into yourself and use that. For that matter, you could probably do that even if you were a normal fleshbag.

Dungeonscape, add the property that makes armor or a shield into a holy symbol to a warforged's armored body. IIRC, it's just 100-150 gp for that.

Bada boom, bada bing.