Contention about Ultimate Magus Practiced Spellcaster work-around

[Dalebert]

A 1061:
Also note, incidentally, that combining Practiced Spellcaster with Ultimate Magus will allow you to apply all of UM's single-class-progression levels to the same class: Just take PS for the other class, and it'll always be the one with the highest caster level.

I can't get the math to work all the way through. I can get two extra levels on the prepared caster side but from UM lvl 3 to 4, your spontaneous caster class lags one behind and I have to level it at UL lvl 7. What am I missing? I'm putting caster level in brackets next to effective lvl.

http://i.imgur.com/I7ikx3O.png

And by this chart, I may retrain Practiced Spellcaster at ch lvl 9 as it no longer helps and you're getting the CL boost from UM anyway.

[GreenETC]

You're correct, and that quote is wrong. Using Practiced Spellcaster with Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus will progress as such, getting 9/10 Wizard:

1 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 7 8 9 10
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 10
This however:

And by this chart, I may retrain Practiced Spellcaster at ch lvl 9 as it no longer helps and you're getting the CL boost from UM anyway.
isn't fully accurate because the CL boost from UM can progress beyond your normal CL, so you're essentially getting +8 CL for your Beguiler spells. If you don't want that extra 4, then sure, you can trade it out.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use the Illumian race with the Krau sigil and it works. Edit: Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so you can still take Able Learner with this.

Another alternative would be Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM with the feat Master Spellthief, which equalizes all your caster levels and will allow you to get an abnormally high caster level later on.

You should keep Practiced Spellcaster, since your Beguiler caster level is still going to be useful. Especially with the feat Versatile Spellcaster, which allows you to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any Wizard spell you've learned of one level higher. This gives you spontaneous access to most of your Wizard list, but you use your Beguiler caster level when doing so. Also keep in mind that you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, so always apply Practiced Spellcaster and Krau first, then add on Arcane Spell Power from UM afterward.

[Chronos]

Yeah, my bad on that. I remembered the gist of the trick, but didn't look up the sources to get the exact numbers.

[Dalebert]

Another alternative would be Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM with the feat Master Spellthief, which equalizes all your caster levels and will allow you to get an abnormally high caster level later on.

OMG, that's obscene. I had to think about it for a bit, but I think you're right. The feat specifically says it stacks the levels so assuming you can apply PS first... 0.o

And of course, since spellthief makes all your caster levels the same, you can pick which one to apply the single level from UM to each time and just always stick them in your prepared caster class. You don't even need to do PS for that, but you should do it because it raises everything. That's such an exploit.

I'm planning to get a mithral shirt +1 (at least) with the caster armor enchantment that lowers the ASP by 10% (to 0%) so I can cast my wizard spells in it. Does anyone know of anything better than that with an ASP of 0%?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

OMG, that's obscene. I had to think about it for a bit, but I think you're right. The feat specifically says it stacks the levels so assuming you can apply PS first... 0.o

And of course, since spellthief makes all your caster levels the same, you can pick which one to apply the single level from UM to each time and just always stick them in your prepared caster class. You don't even need to do PS for that, but you should do it because it raises everything. That's such an exploit.

I'm planning to get a mithral shirt +1 (at least) with the caster armor enchantment that lowers the ASP by 10% (to 0%) so I can cast my wizard spells in it. Does anyone know of anything better than that with an ASP of 0%?

Master Spellthief doesn't count Practiced Spellcaster when determining your caster levels, it only counts your spellcaster level, i.e. the level you use to determine highest level spells and spells/day. It actually sets your caster level to a specific value, instead of adding anything to your existing caster level, so Practiced Spellcaster would have to be applied afterward and wouldn't do any good. You can still add on Arcane Spell Power from UM afterward, but not Practiced Spellcaster.

[Dalebert]

isn't fully accurate because the CL boost from UM can progress beyond your normal CL, so you're essentially getting +8 CL for your Beguiler spells. If you don't want that extra 4, then sure, you can trade it out.

I concede that. I could see it being interpreted either way but one can certainly conclude that the UM level boost could be added after the PS which has a limit of your HD. I'm going the spellthief route and I don't have a slot for PS right now, but I'm going to take it asap.


Master Spellthief doesn't count Practiced Spellcaster when determining your caster levels, it only counts your spellcaster level, i.e. the level you use to determine highest level spells and spells/day. It actually sets your caster level to a specific value, instead of adding anything to your existing caster level, so Practiced Spellcaster would have to be applied afterward and wouldn't do any good. You can still add on Arcane Spell Power from UM afterward, but not Practiced Spellcaster.

I see what you mean. So let's say you have 1 / 1 / 3 -- Beg / ST / Wiz. That means CL for each per Master Spellthief is 5. If you take PS for beguiler, then the CL would be 9 for beguiler and 5 for the other 2 because you're applying PS to beguiler before applying the CL boost from ST. Yes? That also means you couldn't use the single UM lvls on beguiler even if you wanted to due to PS.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I see what you mean. So let's say you have 1 / 1 / 3 -- Beg / ST / Wiz. That means CL for each per Master Spellthief is 5. If you take PS for beguiler, then the CL would be 9 for beguiler and 5 for the other 2 because you're applying PS to beguiler before applying the CL boost from ST. Yes? That also means you couldn't use the single UM lvls on beguiler even if you wanted to due to PS.

No, Master Spellthief doesn't apply a bonus, it sets it to a fixed value, which is the total of your spellcaster level in each class. In your example, the Beguiler caster level would be 5th after applying Practiced Spellcaster, and then it would still be 5th after Master Spellthief because it sets it to 1+1+3=5.

However, at level 15 with Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM 10, you'll cast as a Wizard 14 and as a Beguiler 8, which along with Arcane Spell Power will give you a caster level of (8+1+14)+4=27 at level 15.

[Crake]

with the feat Versatile Spellcaster, which allows you to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any Wizard spell you've learned of one level higher. This gives you spontaneous access to most of your Wizard list

Biffoniacus, I'm interested to know, have you ever actually played with a DM who'd allow this?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biffoniacus, I'm interested to know, have you ever actually played with a DM who'd allow this?

Yes. Keep in mind that it's not all that great until the higher levels. From levels 1-9 you only have 1st level Beguiler spell slots, so you can only use this to cast 1st and 2nd level Wizard and Beguiler spells. You get 2nd level Beguiler spell slots at level 10, 3rd level Beguiler spells lots at level 13, and 4th level Beguiler spell slots at level 15. Also remember that you'll want to spend those same Beguiler spell slots to add metamagic to your Wizard spells, such as Sculpt Spell, Split Ray, and Fell Drain Spell. Spontaneous access to a few situational Wizard or Beguiler spells each day is certainly good, but there are plenty of ways to get similar abilities (Uncanny Forethought).

[Dalebert]

Let's see if I understand this correctly. So the spellthief/Master Spellthief option is in place of PS because they don't work together. Here's my new plan. The "ACL" means +arcane caster level from UM. I know it looks weird but I set it up so the spreadsheet can add it automatically (+1, then +2, +3, +4). "CL" is total caster level which now applies to all classes due to Master Spellthief. The one level of spellthief is not listed in the chart because it's not being advanced but it is being figured into the CL column.

http://i.imgur.com/pjuPtzI.png

[Rastapopolos]

Im sure your already aware of this but just for completion, If you went straight wizard and took the Spontaneous Divination ACF at level 5 before going UM, your wizard class is now your spontaneous AND prepared (and lowest and highest) casting class advancing spells known and spells/day stupidly quickly.