how to do without top tier casters?

[foobar1969]

Thanks to this forum I think I understand Tiers in 3E. It's not about having bigger guns, it's about having better answers?

Followup question: if you omit top tier casters, how do you replace them? In particular, what do you do for healing?

Also, what do you think of the following house rule ideas:

* Could a Divine Bard be the primary healer with open access to the Healing subschool? e.g. Lesser Restoration, Mass Lesser Vigor, up to Heal. And would that character be worth playing?

* Would a Duskblade be reasonable with open access to the Sorcerer spell list, but casting them expends two slots? Or is level 5 flexibility likely to break the game?

* Would a Warlock be reasonable with bonus feats (like a Wizard) for metamagic or extra invocations?

[Flickerdart]

Healing is not a real party role. Wands of Lesser Vigor or Cure Light Wounds, Healing Belts...you can buy tons of healing for cheap. In combat, you should never waste time healing until you get heal because it's very hard to outpace damage and you're better off killing the enemy rather than stalling.

There are plenty of mid-tier casters (beguilers, favored souls, shugenja, wu jen, dread necromancer, death master, warmage) that can cover the holes left by the departure of tier 1 and 2 casters.

[The Trickster]

A DM can always compensate for lack of healers by dropping more potions, wands, and other magic items.

There is also the Healer class (which I find boring). Or you could always use some homebrew class that heals.

[ryu]

If you want to assume a somewhat similar level of potential utility to what you've had before banning the tier 1 and 2 classes? I would recommend putting the entire party in tier 3 classes, and googling the list of mandatory magic item effects to show them. From there with proper understanding of the system, and plans for who will take on what roles, you almost sorta replicate the day to day utility of a half party of tier 1/2s. Basically cut the less powerful fat of the class composition in WOTC assumptions to balance your bans and you get a bunch of tier 3 players who don't need to compensate for classes that can't do their own jobs without help.

[EugeneVoid]

When the higher classes never exist,
the lower classes become the higher classes
and the tier list streches.

[Mountain]

I don't allow Tier 1 classes when I DM. It just isn't fair to the people who enjoy the more reasonable classes. I've found that not having a wizard or cleric makes the adventures much more fun, because the party has to figure out how to overcome a challenge or obstacle rather than the wizard or cleric just throwing a spell at it.

[JaronK]

Healing's easy... items can do it. Crusaders, Binders, and Dread Necromancers can also cover the job without problems (though the last of those needs a group that takes Tomb Tainted Soul or is willing to go Necropolitan).

Item crafting is generally the domain of high level Warlocks, though Dread Necromancers, Beguilers, Factotums, and so on can all do it.

Really, the game plays just fine without the Tier 1s and 2s. The only thing really missing is Teleport, but that's not such a big deal (and if you really need it Arcane Disciple will get if for you).

JaronK

[jindra34]

You really don't need them. The presence of the top two tiers is actually a distortion of the game past intent. So the answer I guess is just fine?

[Flickerdart]

When the higher classes never exist,
the lower classes become the higher classes
and the tier list streches.

It really doesn't. With or without wizards, a fighter isn't suddenly going to grow phenomenal cosmic power and start binding fiends to his will.

[SiuiS]

Thanks to this forum I think I understand Tiers in 3E. It's not about having bigger guns, it's about having better answers?

Followup question: if you omit top tier casters, how do you replace them? In particular, what do you do for healing?

Also, what do you think of the following house rule ideas:

* Could a Divine Bard be the primary healer with open access to the Healing subschool? e.g. Lesser Restoration, Mass Lesser Vigor, up to Heal. And would that character be worth playing?

* Would a Duskblade be reasonable with open access to the Sorcerer spell list, but casting them expends two slots? Or is level 5 flexibility likely to break the game?

* Would a Warlock be reasonable with bonus feats (like a Wizard) for metamagic or extra invocations?

The specialist classes are good. Beguiler, dread necromancer, warmage, and uh, healer. Healer is kinda lukewarm, but it is quite literally better than nothing. Barely though, because;


Healing is not a real party role. Wands of Lesser Vigor or Cure Light Wounds, Healing Belts...you can buy tons of healing for cheap. In combat, you should never waste time healing until you get heal because it's very hard to outpace damage and you're better off killing the enemy rather than stalling.

There are plenty of mid-tier casters (beguilers, favored souls, shugenja, wu jen, dread necromancer, death master, warmage) that can cover the holes left by the departure of tier 1 and 2 casters.

This.

Although; how would you fix that? Assuming for the moment you accept that it's a thing that should be fixed, what would the best method of correction be? In-combat healing being more potent than out-of-combat healing?

[Rubik]

When the higher classes never exist,
the lower classes become the higher classes
and the tier list streches.The names of the tiers might change, but CW samurai are just as useless even without wizards in the mix, and monks still can't hit things. The roster of monster abilities stays identical and the challenges remain out of reach for the low tiered classes regardless.


Although; how would you fix that? Assuming for the moment you accept that it's a thing that should be fixed, what would the best method of correction be? In-combat healing being more potent than out-of-combat healing?Give healers more proactive solutions, such as buffing spells and temp hp when healing spells go over the target's maximum. Give them something to do to enemies directly in the form of debuffs. Basically, allow them to be an active class, rather than reactive. And for the gods' sakes, give them things to do outside of combat.

[TuggyNE]

In particular, what do you do for healing?

Healing in the sense of HP recovery is best handled by items, as noted. Status effect removal is a bit trickier, but careful item selection for immunities and recovery can get you a fair ways, and Adepts and Healers, and to a lesser extent the half-casters, can also fill in pretty well. In a pinch, UMD + scrolls will do the job.

[DarkWhisper]

Although; how would you fix that? Assuming for the moment you accept that it's a thing that should be fixed, what would the best method of correction be? In-combat healing being more potent than out-of-combat healing?

Take a look at the Vitalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist).

Healing at range and healing more than one target at the same time (without massive additional cost) are already going a long way. Coupled with the flexibility of psionic casting, it makes in-combat healing viable (if still less efficient than taking out the opponent with a standard action, of course).

[ngilop]

I did a Healer re-tool (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272245)

i focused on 9 aspects that are teh ones that are lakcing for the healer to be great at what she is supposed to be doing and somewhat decent in other areas.

I made the healing be actually worthwhile in combat as the healer heals more per heal and gets free empower basically.. not to mention casting Cure X as swift actions and from a distance

[ArcturusV]

Well, I think on Healing being a viable role... you have to look at the one example of In Combat healing I typically see mentioned as being worth a damn. And that is the Crusader. The reason why is you're getting your Heal on, while also doing something you want to do (Beating someone about the face).

That'd be where I'd go to "fix" healing in combat if I wanted to. I'd think in terms of that. Like combining Heals with Buffs. If I can say... drop a Cure light wounds, for example, on a target and also grant them DR 5/- for the next CL/2 rounds (Max 5).... then not only did I repair damage, I also buffed to prevent some future damage, and that might become a decent spell at level 1, where you catch someone when they get hit and turn them into a juggernaut (Which is likely to work as "tanking" as they're hitting a target they already found highly dangerous after all).

Granted just a first thought, would have to tweak it obviously. I'd like the idea of coming up with different boons for different classes casting Healing magic. For example a Ranger giving a target a move speed boost perhaps, a cleric giving a sacred bonus to Attack and AC, a Paladin sharing his defensive boons (Divine Grace, immune to fear, immune to disease, etc) when he heals, etc.

It's not that it isn't possible... but I don't think it's possible in the realm of "pure healing", it has to be Healing +... what that + ends up being depending on the nature of healer you want, be it the Crusader's "Smack someone and heal" or what.

[zlefin]

I wanted to mention that League of legends also had issues with some support/healing characters being too boring to play, in particular ones that just stood there spamming heals on their allies. So looking at the solutions they came up with could serve as inspiration.

[Flickerdart]

That'd be where I'd go to "fix" healing in combat if I wanted to. I'd think in terms of that. Like combining Heals with Buffs. If I can say... drop a Cure light wounds, for example, on a target and also grant them DR 5/- for the next CL/2 rounds (Max 5).... then not only did I repair damage, I also buffed to prevent some future damage, and that might become a decent spell at level 1, where you catch someone when they get hit and turn them into a juggernaut (Which is likely to work as "tanking" as they're hitting a target they already found highly dangerous after all).

There's a build out there (Healer-based actually, I think) that basically does this. Anyone they hit with a heal gets the benefits of aid and a bunch of other spells.

[Adverb]

I think editions four and five found a good way to make in-combat healing more important - they made them work similarly to 3.5 swift actions. You get to heal your buddy and then do something else with your turn, too.

[lsfreak]

Heal is also a good use of actions in 3.5, but that's because it combined a) an actually-level-appropriate heal with b) blanket removal of a ton of status effects.

Some sources of temporary hit points are also decent "healing" because they don't need to be cast in-combat.

One of the big problems with healing is that, for example, while you can damage a lot in multiple ways, trip or stun during your attack, deal ability damage during your attack, attack multiple enemies, attack one enemy multiple times, damage in response to actions, gain buffs when you attack, get bonuses on your attack, cast spells through your attack, have buffs that make your attacks better, gain multiple attacks in a round... healing is basically limited to poorly-scaling single-target heals, extremely poorly scaling AoE heals, and slow out-of-combat heals, plus heal, crusader healing, and close wounds. That's not much to work with.

[Psyren]

I question your premise itself. Banning or omitting high tier classes is unnecessary unless the players lack self-control and feel compelled to routinely optimize to the hilt.

If that is happening then yes, you should cut out the top tiers of the game, but the mere existence of the tier system is not itself a "problem."

[AMFV]

I question your premise itself. Banning or omitting high tier classes is unnecessary unless the players lack self-control and feel compelled to routinely optimize to the hilt.

If that is happening then yes, you should cut out the top tiers of the game, but the mere existence of the tier system is not itself a "problem."

This definitely reflects my feelings on the matter. The problem with preemptive banning is that first and foremost you are expecting your players to behave like immature idiots. Which may or may not be the case, but assuming it is terrible behavior yourself.

Furthermore that sort of thing encourages the sort of vindictive responses from players where they try to wrangle whatever is left out of the system.

[Ruethgar]

I love manifest life for healing. It requires cheese and/or third party to be pulled off well, but I think you could make a nice homebrew class around that sort of spell premise that wouldn't be an entirely passive class. Other similar spells, Bestow Wounds, Healing Touch, Vampiric Touch, and the homebrew Transpond Minor Wounds.

[TrollCapAmerica]

This definitely reflects my feelings on the matter. The problem with preemptive banning is that first and foremost you are expecting your players to behave like immature idiots. Which may or may not be the case, but assuming it is terrible behavior yourself.

Furthermore that sort of thing encourages the sort of vindictive responses from players where they try to wrangle whatever is left out of the system.

I feel similar but ill add another facet to the problem

Take away top tier casters and what happens to the enemies you face?Type 3 demons can still cast at will Teleport/Chaos Hammer/Reverse gravity/Dispel magic.Dragons still fly around and breath on you Beholders melt you and giant enemy crabs still have no weak point.Theres always going to be tons of challenges that top tiers handle easily but there may also be problems lower tier ones cant handle at all ["Quickly Joe the Monk punch your ally John the Fighter until his isnt petrified anymore"}

[EugeneVoid]

It really doesn't. With or without wizards, a fighter isn't suddenly going to grow phenomenal cosmic power and start binding fiends to his will.

What I meant was that if tiers 1 and 2 never existed, then we'd have created the tier system with that in mind.
So Binder or Factotum would become our new "tier 1"
and everything else will stretch up. Fighter might even become tier 4, thought it probably wouldn't.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I feel similar but ill add another facet to the problem

Take away top tier casters and what happens to the enemies you face?Type 3 demons can still cast at will Teleport/Chaos Hammer/Reverse gravity/Dispel magic.Dragons still fly around and breath on you Beholders melt you and giant enemy crabs still have no weak point.Theres always going to be tons of challenges that top tiers handle easily but there may also be problems lower tier ones cant handle at all ["Quickly Joe the Monk punch your ally John the Fighter until his isnt petrified anymore"}

This is a non-issue. Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Healer, and Warmage very easily cover all the blanks left when you remove -all- of the T1 and T2 classes.

[Mountain]

I feel similar but ill add another facet to the problem

Take away top tier casters and what happens to the enemies you face?Type 3 demons can still cast at will Teleport/Chaos Hammer/Reverse gravity/Dispel magic.Dragons still fly around and breath on you Beholders melt you and giant enemy crabs still have no weak point.Theres always going to be tons of challenges that top tiers handle easily but there may also be problems lower tier ones cant handle at all ["Quickly Joe the Monk punch your ally John the Fighter until his isnt petrified anymore"}

This is a problem with the DM, not the classes. If the DM bans tier 1 and 2, he must provide the party with challenges that they can overcome, rather than saying "Oh no, you can't de-petrify your friend? I hate that for you." In a world without the top tiers, the CR of things with powerful SLAs probably goes up.

[ryu]

What I meant was that if tiers 1 and 2 never existed, then we'd have created the tier system with that in mind.
So Binder or Factotum would become our new "tier 1"
and everything else will stretch up. Fighter might even become tier 4, thought it probably wouldn't.

Names would change, but the actual relevant data of describing what each tier is capable of will remain the same after you account for switched positions. A warblade will never be looked at with the same awe, fear, and raw unmitigated jealousy as a real tier one from the base system would.

[EugeneVoid]

Names would change, but the actual relevant data of describing what each tier is capable of will remain the same after you account for switched positions. A warblade will never be looked at with the same awe, fear, and raw unmitigated jealousy as a real tier one from the base system would.

Yeah, that's what I mean
Sorry, about any confusion

[Psyren]

This is a non-issue. Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Healer, and Warmage very easily cover all the blanks left when you remove -all- of the T1 and T2 classes.

Not all - none of those classes can call/bind backup for instance. Dread Necro comes closest but still has significant limitations, such as needing corpses around and undead being generally limited in many respects, such as complex commands and social situations.

In addition, the Healer faces unique limitations. It is capable of dealing with many status effects, like the cleric, but it is severely hampered in combat; having one in your party shifts the offensive potential of the entire group downward.

[AMFV]

A DM can always compensate for lack of healers by dropping more potions, wands, and other magic items.

There is also the Healer class (which I find boring). Or you could always use some homebrew class that heals.


This is a non-issue. Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Healer, and Warmage very easily cover all the blanks left when you remove -all- of the T1 and T2 classes.

They still can't Plane Shift, Teleport, or Fly. All of which are necessary for high level play. They can't perform divinations, which are extremely useful, if not necessary for play at higher levels. They can't conjure things, which is important in certain scenarios.

Also dimensional anchor, and a variety of spells intended to prevent enemies from using those particular tactics. So basically the enemies have those abilities while the PCs never get them.

These are just off the top of my head without any real thought given to the scenario, those are things that a tier 1 caster can easily cover but in a world without tier 1s are simply not available to the players.


Not all - none of those classes can call/bind backup for instance. Dread Necro comes closest but still has significant limitations, such as needing corpses around and undead being generally limited in many respects, such as complex commands and social situations.

In addition, the Healer faces unique limitations. It is capable of dealing with many status effects, like the cleric, but it is severely hampered in combat; having one in your party shifts the offensive potential of the entire group downward.

And there's this, that's another example right off the bat of something that simply is impossible if you remove higher tier casters from play.

[EugeneVoid]

Warlocks and Deceive Item

[AMFV]

Warlocks and Deceive Item

Who makes the items if there are no tier 1 casters? How would somebody know they should exist? These are questions that would shatter my verisimilitude, I would be unable to immerse myself in such a setting. Which is a further problem you get from removing higher tier casters.

Suddenly, you need to start making all kinds of backside-pull explanations for things. These sort of explanations strain verisimilitude significantly past it's breaking point. Basically if you have to rewrite how a world works to justify a house rule, it's probably going to be hard for your players to accept that particular house rule.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not all - none of those classes can call/bind backup for instance. Dread Necro comes closest but still has significant limitations, such as needing corpses around and undead being generally limited in many respects, such as complex commands and social situations.

In addition, the Healer faces unique limitations. It is capable of dealing with many status effects, like the cleric, but it is severely hampered in combat; having one in your party shifts the offensive potential of the entire group downward.

Summoning is easy enough to cover. Arcane Disciple (summoner) can net it for any of the list casters and the contemplative PrC can add it to the healer, albeit later. There's also planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment) to add it to the casters' lists (though this may take some adjudication). It's just not hard to come by. Even if it was, it's one of those action economy breaking, magic-button for all problems type of effects that you banned the T1's and T2's to avoid.

Similar tricks can add offensive ability to the healer's list and there's also the possibility of going into prestige paladin or using one of the previous tricks for the animal domain and then going into prestige ranger. It doesn't take a lot of effort to make healer completely viable in combat. Though, again, the point of the bans in question is to bring casters down a few pegs.

[Psyren]

Summoning is easy enough to cover. Arcane Disciple (summoner) can net it for any of the list casters and the contemplative PrC can add it to the healer, albeit later.

There's a lot of holes in this approach, starting with the fact that Trithereon probably is not part of every campaign and that he's off-limits to DNs anyway. But even if you do find a way to get this domain, AD gives you a single casting of its spells per day - so if you need to, say, call two things then you're SOL. Also, you don't get PB from this domain; the closest you can come is Lesser PB from the Rune Domain, which leaves out the other two.

The Catalogues of Enlightenment are even more limited than that (you get no spells unless you unlock the higher-order ability, in which case you get a single spell), with the added requirement of DM assistance to boot.

[Kelb_Panthera]

They still can't Plane Shift, Teleport, or Fly. All of which are necessary for high level play. They can't perform divinations, which are extremely useful, if not necessary for play at higher levels. They can't conjure things, which is important in certain scenarios.

Also dimensional anchor, and a variety of spells intended to prevent enemies from using those particular tactics. So basically the enemies have those abilities while the PCs never get them.

These are just off the top of my head without any real thought given to the scenario, those are things that a tier 1 caster can easily cover but in a world without tier 1s are simply not available to the players.

Yeah, most of those are necessary -because- of the banned casters. Only a relatively short list of creatures have even one of those abilities (excluding flight) much less more than one.

Flight is as easily negated as it is found in a normal game and there are also flight items to be had (thank you warlock). Debuffs and ranged attacks are your friends here.

Divination -is- still available. Between the NPC caster classes, prestige classes, and divinatory items it hasn't gone anywhere.

Planeshift is not necessary at all. I don't know where that even came from.

I'll give you dimensional anchor and other dimensional travel denial is harder to come by but with teleportation being rarer its importance is diminished. I can only think of prestige classes that put it back on the PC's side.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's a lot of holes in this approach, starting with the fact that Trithereon probably is not part of every campaign and that he's off-limits to DNs anyway. But even if you do find a way to get this domain, AD gives you a single casting of its spells per day - so if you need to, say, call two things then you're SOL. Also, you don't get PB from this domain; the closest you can come is Lesser PB from the Rune Domain, which leaves out the other two.

The Catalogues of Enlightenment are even more limited than that (you get no spells unless you unlock the higher-order ability, in which case you get a single spell), with the added requirement of DM assistance to boot.

The Catalogues higher order use has three charges, so that's three spells. Like I said, however, these are exactly the sort of effect you're trying to limit by banning the casters that normally have these spells. Having them available in very limited fashion is kinda the point.

[Psyren]

The Catalogues higher order use has three charges, so that's three spells. Like I said, however, these are exactly the sort of effect you're trying to limit by banning the casters that normally have these spells. Having them available in very limited fashion is kinda the point.

1) You have three uses, but the ability is still 1/day. All this means is that you can use the ability 3 times (i.e. on three separate days) before you need to go back there.

2) To unlock or recharge a higher-order ability, you need to actually visit the site. So you need some way to travel to Mechanus, and none of those classes has plane shift. And even once you get there, you need to actually find the library itself, and these classes don't have divinations or teleportation either.

3) I understand your point that limited access to these spells is a feature, but really, this particular ability is so limited it may as well be banned entirely. You simply may not have 1d4 weeks of prep time available before you need to bind something. If your DM is going to arrange coincidence this much in your favor he may as well just houserule the spells onto your list and be done with it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I admit that the catalogues is definitely not the number 1 choice but arcane disciple is pretty solidly where you want this sort of effect and a contemplative dip gets you right back where you started just not until level 11.

I also just remembered there're a couple sanctified spells that get some critters on the field. There's also several PrC's that get summoning and/or calling spells as part of their independent casting.

Edit: just double checked contemplative. It's only 1/day for each spell level for prepared casters. There's still shugenja I guess. I think I remember those being T3.

[AMFV]

Yeah, most of those are necessary -because- of the banned casters. Only a relatively short list of creatures have even one of those abilities (excluding flight) much less more than one.

Flight is as easily negated as it is found in a normal game and there are also flight items to be had (thank you warlock). Debuffs and ranged attacks are your friends here.

Divination -is- still available. Between the NPC caster classes, prestige classes, and divinatory items it hasn't gone anywhere.

Planeshift is not necessary at all. I don't know where that even came from.

I'll give you dimensional anchor and other dimensional travel denial is harder to come by but with teleportation being rarer its importance is diminished. I can only think of prestige classes that put it back on the PC's side.

Most higher level outsiders can easily teleport away or planeshift away. Ergo to properly engage them you need the ability to find them and to follow them. As I said, it's a much more complex solution to include a myriad of prestige classes and Arcane Disciple. At this point you are basically allowing the same problems as a tier 1 caster. After all a Rainbow Warsnake is unarguably the same. and I would argue that any seriously expanded caster winds up moving up into the tier 1-2 range. Certainly an Arcane Disciple Warmage or Beguiler is arguably tier 2 rather than their previous tiers.

Again my point stands, if players must cheat the system to gain those abilities they will, furthermore, they will have to resort to more cheesy methods, producing a higher baseline level of cheese that may later prove problematic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Most higher level outsiders can easily teleport away or planeshift away. Ergo to properly engage them you need the ability to find them and to follow them. As I said, it's a much more complex solution to include a myriad of prestige classes and Arcane Disciple. At this point you are basically allowing the same problems as a tier 1 caster. After all a Rainbow Warsnake is unarguably the same. and I would argue that any seriously expanded caster winds up moving up into the tier 1-2 range. Certainly an Arcane Disciple Warmage or Beguiler is arguably tier 2 rather than their previous tiers.

Again my point stands, if players must cheat the system to gain those abilities they will, furthermore, they will have to resort to more cheesy methods, producing a higher baseline level of cheese that may later prove problematic.

While it's true that high level fiends are quite capable of dimensional travel, they're also pretty much the only creatures that are and, on the other hand, when they're about they're usually the focus of the campaign, especially when there are very few casters capable of sending them after people. This makes those prestige classes that focus on dealing with such creatures especially appropriate rather than an exercise in gaming the system.

The rainbow servant's capstone would likely get it banned outright. I'd think that was more than a little obvious.

Arcane disciple isn't nearly as powerful as you seem to think. No domain power and you can only cast the spells once per day per spell level -if- you have the wisdom. You're overstating the problem there.

Again, most of the problems you've highlighted with not having the T1 and T2's around is entirely the point in eliminating those classes in the first place.

[AMFV]

While it's true that high level fiends are quite capable of dimensional travel, they're also pretty much the only creatures that are and, on the other hand, when they're about they're usually the focus of the campaign, especially when there are very few casters capable of sending them after people. This makes those prestige classes that focus on dealing with such creatures especially appropriate rather than an exercise in gaming the system.

The rainbow servant's capstone would likely get it banned outright. I'd think that was more than a little obvious.

Arcane disciple isn't nearly as powerful as you seem to think. No domain power and you can only cast the spells once per day per spell level -if- you have the wisdom. You're overstating the problem there.

Again, most of the problems you've highlighted with not having the T1 and T2's around is entirely the point in eliminating those classes in the first place.

Having the spells once per day can be nearly as gamebreaking as having them more often. If it's a spell that's particularly gamebreaking. Ergo Arcane Disciple is exactly as bad as a tier 2 caster, at the very least. No caster with a diverse casting list is below tier 2, and with things like Shades and shadow conjurations, Miracle, Anyspell, etc. It's quite easy for a caster with Arcane Disciple to be easily a tier 2 type class.

The problem with that sort of banning is that it neglects opitimization, The tier list is not designed to deal with optimization at a high level and virtually anybody can move up a tier. You're just forcing players to start lower, which will in turn cause them to optimize more rigorously, particularly if they have a perceived goal in terms of optimization.

[Komatik]

They still can't Plane Shift, Teleport, or Fly. All of which are necessary for high level play. They can't perform divinations, which are extremely useful, if not necessary for play at higher levels. They can't conjure things, which is important in certain scenarios.

Also dimensional anchor, and a variety of spells intended to prevent enemies from using those particular tactics. So basically the enemies have those abilities while the PCs never get them.

These are just off the top of my head without any real thought given to the scenario, those are things that a tier 1 caster can easily cover but in a world without tier 1s are simply not available to the players.



And there's this, that's another example right off the bat of something that simply is impossible if you remove higher tier casters from play.

Necessary against high-level encounters as they stand. In a world without T1/T2, the opposition ought to be likewise limited.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Having the spells once per day can be nearly as gamebreaking as having them more often. If it's a spell that's particularly gamebreaking. Ergo Arcane Disciple is exactly as bad as a tier 2 caster, at the very least. No caster with a diverse casting list is below tier 2, and with things like Shades and shadow conjurations, Miracle, Anyspell, etc. It's quite easy for a caster with Arcane Disciple to be easily a tier 2 type class. I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree here. Anyspell can be a problem but that's as simple as dropping the spell domain. Miracle is a ninth level spell and doesn't make a T2 by itself. To the best of my knowledge and a quick search neither shades nor shadow conjuration are on any domain lists.

I just don't see such limited access as being even remotely enough to bring those classes up to T2 especially since it induces madness by forcing them to pump wisdom.


The problem with that sort of banning is that it neglects opitimization, The tier list is not designed to deal with optimization at a high level and virtually anybody can move up a tier. You're just forcing players to start lower, which will in turn cause them to optimize more rigorously, particularly if they have a perceived goal in terms of optimization.

If the players are going to optimize to that extent no amount of banning can stop them. At that point you've just got to discuss with the group what an appropriate power level is for the campaign. I'm just talking about very simple methods for gaining limited access to very powerful effects. This is in line with the idea that prompts banning the T1 and T2 classes.

[Rasman]

I am in agreement with Mountain on this one, not allowing tier one makes your players think. I know that I've been in a game with a Wizard and he just magics his way out of all of our problems. The game nearly fell apart because of this and all of the players that I brought into the game left because they were so utterly bored by this.

I am also in the agreement that healing in the realm of items is best. You may need to just flat out give them special items in some way that will help them with in combat healing for emergency situations. This will require work on your part since you may need to make special items for them.

[Thanatosia]

I don't think the lack of options like Teleport and Flight and such is very game breaking, players just have to be more creative, and you as a DM just have to make adventures that don't require them to get across the continent quickly unless you provide some means for them to do so.

I'd say the biggest problem is status healing. Yes, Hp healing can be done with a variety of magic items.... but restoring level loss, removing curses, curing blindness, regenerating lost limbs, raising the dead, undoing permenant ability drain.... doing this with magic items just is not well built into the system, at all.

There are non-tier 1 classes that can handle that kind of healing... the problem is.... they tend to be very boring to play. Playing a cleric who casts greater restoration when needed is fun. Playing the healbot that does nothing but cure wounds and casting greater restoration is not a game, it's a chore, and one that will just breed resentment. There are people who don't mind playing pure unmitigated support, but they are rare.

[PraxisVetli]

Call me crazy.
What if Tier 1-2's were PC banned?
As in, they were NPC classes.
That way, items can still exist, the spells, when necessary, can be cast by paying an NPC, and yet they aren't constantly breaking campaigns.
Flaw: simply hiring the NPC.
Solution: No. This guys already been around the world. He'll help you, then he's goin home.
Flaw: Leadership
Solution: Leadership is subject to DM approval anyway. And the lvl difference should compensate anyway?

I dunno, just somethin I thought I would throw out there.



Though in all actuality, I don't see a problem with Tier 1-2's, I think its player responsibility to limit themselves and keep campaign fun for everone, and DM's job to meteor them if they don't!

[Eldest]

The items can still exist (Warlock), the healing spells can still be cast (healer, paladin, and adapt), and if you really need it you can get teleports and plane shifts (psychic warrior, factotum off the top of my head). So you actually can still get the various effects, but they are harder to access. Scrolls of relevant spells can be purchased and used. So the party will end up needing to plan ahead. I fail to see the issue with this. And personally, just because one of the PCs isn't playing a healer doesn't mean I won't make sure to have healing available. Adapts and Healers would be fairly common, with the location of those able to heal status effects being well known.

[Biotroll]

That reminds me that there were some tests with tier 4 party on these forums if I am not mistaken. Anyone knew how it ended? I found qwert-chan's test but there were more of them or not?

[Kelb_Panthera]

That reminds me that there were some tests with tier 4 party on these forums if I am not mistaken. Anyone knew how it ended? I found qwert-chan's test but there were more of them or not?

It ended in miserable failure as a test. The group that finished had a DM that made terrible calls and/or outright broke the rules of the game and the other group (of which I was a part) never finished because the DM had RL issues.



On the healing special damage types and boringness of classes capable of performing the task; unless the character is done severe harm by one or multiple types, you can always just tough it out until you can get back to town and pay an NPC to cast the necessary spells on your behalf. Seriously, a casting of heal only costs 660 gold.

[AMFV]

I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree here. Anyspell can be a problem but that's as simple as dropping the spell domain. Miracle is a ninth level spell and doesn't make a T2 by itself. To the best of my knowledge and a quick search neither shades nor shadow conjuration are on any domain lists.

I just don't see such limited access as being even remotely enough to bring those classes up to T2 especially since it induces madness by forcing them to pump wisdom.



If the players are going to optimize to that extent no amount of banning can stop them. At that point you've just got to discuss with the group what an appropriate power level is for the campaign. I'm just talking about very simple methods for gaining limited access to very powerful effects. This is in line with the idea that prompts banning the T1 and T2 classes.

This is true, however to be honest I don't see that I would want to play in a game that had to nerf both my options and the options of many of the higher level monsters. Dragons could no longer be sorcerers for example, without completely overshadowing the party.

It is likely a difference in playstyle, but I would still submit that there might be huge issues with banning tier 1 and tier 2 classes.

On the MAD note, Favored Souls are Tier 2, Archivists are Tier 1 and they are both dual attribute dependent, all you need is a 19 to cast all the spells on a list, which is certainly easy to attain at 18th level with stat boosting items. With the right domains you could certainly push to a higher tier, that's a fundamental truth of the optimization and the tier system, sufficient optimization makes the tier system a poor characteriztion, it's intended for a mid level optimization without all the books available (JaronK even factored in which books are more likely) so an experienced Practical Optimizer could certainly push a character up a few tiers.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Who makes the items if there are no tier 1 casters? How would somebody know they should exist? These are questions that would shatter my verisimilitude, I would be unable to immerse myself in such a setting. Which is a further problem you get from removing higher tier casters.
Warlocks with Imbue Item. And isn't there a mini-Artificer NPC class somewhere?

[AMFV]

Warlocks with Imbue Item. And isn't there a mini-Artificer NPC class somewhere?

It wasn't a question of who in terms of game mechanics it was a question of who with regards to world verisimilitude, Warlocks are clearly replicating items, it states this in their description it's very difficult for them to replicate things with nobody to replicate.

The main point is that, I don't play with people I can't trust, if somebody doesn't trust me, there's good odds I don't trust them back. If people can't trust me to play as a wizard 'cause I might shoot my eye out, it's not something I want to be a part of. In contrast if somebody wanted a player to try Incarnum or Psionics, I certainly would be game for that.

The fundamental problem I have with banhammers and nerfbats is that they imply that the players can't handle things. If you are doing this prior to play you're showing that you can't trust the players. If I'm already not trusted by you and expected to be a munchkiny person, then there's is absolutely no reason not to play to type, since I'm already being punished for it.

[nedz]

This is a non-issue. Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Healer, and Warmage very easily cover all the blanks left when you remove -all- of the T1 and T2 classes.


They still can't Plane Shift, Teleport, or Fly. All of which are necessary for high level play. They can't perform divinations, which are extremely useful, if not necessary for play at higher levels. They can't conjure things, which is important in certain scenarios.

Also dimensional anchor, and a variety of spells intended to prevent enemies from using those particular tactics. So basically the enemies have those abilities while the PCs never get them.

These are just off the top of my head without any real thought given to the scenario, those are things that a tier 1 caster can easily cover but in a world without tier 1s are simply not available to the players.


Human Beguiler 5 / Divine Oracle 1 / Beguiler +2 / Divine Oracle +2 / Beguiler ++
Patron: Fharlanghn
Feats: 1: Educated, Arcane Disciple (Balance), 3: Skill Focus (Know(Religion)), 6: Arcane Disciple (Travel), 9: Arcane Disciple (Portal)

Can do all of the above except Plane Shift, though Beguilers do get Shadow walk.

Also: Dim Door 2 x day, Teleport 2 x day, Greater Teleport 1 x day AND full access to the Oracle domain for divinations.

[AMFV]

Human Beguiler 5 / Divine Oracle 1 / Beguiler +2 / Divine Oracle +2 / Beguiler ++
Patron: Fharlanghn
Feats: 1: Educated, Arcane Disciple (Balance), 3: Skill Focus (Know(Religion)), 6: Arcane Disciple (Travel), 9: Arcane Disciple (Portal)

Can do all of the above except Plane Shift, though Beguilers do get Shadow walk.

Also: Dim Door 2 x day, Teleport 2 x day, Greater Teleport 1 x day AND full access to the Oracle domain for divinations.

And I would argue that you are pushing the Beguiler into a higher tier. You're deliberately working to circumvent the restrictions implemented by the DM. Hence the problem with this sort of banning, people don't like it and they build workarounds. It's certainly a good workaround, but if the DM is intent on removing higher power spell-casting you're going to create a problem for him fairly soon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is true, however to be honest I don't see that I would want to play in a game that had to nerf both my options and the options of many of the higher level monsters. Dragons could no longer be sorcerers for example, without completely overshadowing the party.Like I've been saying, nerfing the players is kinda the point. As for nerfing the monsters, that's not strictly necessary. Fiend's dimensional mobility and dragon's sorcery make them extremely dangerous, as some feel they should be.


It is likely a difference in playstyle, but I would still submit that there might be huge issues with banning tier 1 and tier 2 classes.The size of the issues at hand are somewhat relative. Personally, I don't think it's as big a deal as you do. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.


On the MAD note, Favored Souls are Tier 2, Archivists are Tier 1 and they are both dual attribute dependent, all you need is a 19 to cast all the spells on a list, which is certainly easy to attain at 18th level with stat boosting items. With the right domains you could certainly push to a higher tier, that's a fundamental truth of the optimization and the tier system, sufficient optimization makes the tier system a poor characteriztion, it's intended for a mid level optimization without all the books available (JaronK even factored in which books are more likely) so an experienced Practical Optimizer could certainly push a character up a few tiers.

Favored souls and Archivists rate so highly, in spite of their dual stat casting, because of the strength of the cleric list and the archivist's ability to draw from other lists to get spells at a much lower than normal level. A beguiler with the luck domain isn't significantly different from a normal beguiler. If he's willing to sink some points in wisdom and buy a periapt of wisdom then he gets miracle at 18 and he gets some good defensive buffs but that's it. Hardly enough to justify T2. Only the spell domain's access to any spell could conceivably push one of the list casters to T2 and even that's questionable.

[Greenish]

Warlocks with Imbue Item. And isn't there a mini-Artificer NPC class somewhere?Magewright from ECS is, well, a magic-using artisan NPC class. It doesn't get anything related to crafting items, though, apart from a very modest smattering of arcane spells.

[johnbragg]

Although; how would you fix that? Assuming for the moment you accept that it's a thing that should be fixed, what would the best method of correction be? In-combat healing being more potent than out-of-combat healing?

First, I say it's not a thing that needs fixing. Since it's been established, on this thread and elsewhere, that in-combat-healing is a sucker's game anyway, follow that logic. Healing-during-combat means that your group needs to get out of combat. Instead of fight-until-the-cleric-is-out-of-Cure's, you fight-until-low-on-HP. Your adepts and bards and crusaders etc can handle that.

Not to mention the option of a cleric-archetype that's gimped down to Tier 3. Either a Warrior with Domain spells only, or an Adept plus Domain spells, looks a lot like our mental image of a D&D priest, but without the game-breaking firepower.


Fiend's dimensional mobility and dragon's sorcery make them extremely dangerous, as some feel they should be.

Extremely dangerous yes. But if you nerf the Tier 1 PC classes, you effectively nerf the societies they spring from. So in a world with no Tier 1 casters in the human/elven/etc kingdoms, and SRD dragons in the mountains with full sorcerer casting, you'll expect those dragons to be ruling and/or ruining a lot more of the world than you do in a "standard" D&D setting.

If fiends are playing a major role in your campaign world, and they can use scry-and-die tactics and mortals can't, then that means either greater activity from Good-plane outsiders, with mortals basically refugees caught in the middle, or just have the fiends running rampant over the PRime Material Plane.

Or you come up with limitations on the fiends, so that groups of high-level humans and demihumans can still be competitive with the biggest relevant challenges out there.


What if Tier 1-2's were PC banned?
As in, they were NPC classes.
That way, items can still exist, the spells, when necessary, can be cast by paying an NPC, and yet they aren't constantly breaking campaigns.

Similar approach: what if high-level spells were only available to groups of casters, and/or had casting times measured in months and years?

So the spells are available to kings and merchant cities and mage guilds and large churches. Not so much to random murderhobos, no matter how much gold they can dump out of a bag of holding.

That way, if you do start to have a problem with fiends/devils/demons/rogue earth elementals, Powerful NPCs have a reason to send these powerful adventurers out after them.

[nedz]

And I would argue that you are pushing the Beguiler into a higher tier. You're deliberately working to circumvent the restrictions implemented by the DM. Hence the problem with this sort of banning, people don't like it and they build workarounds. It's certainly a good workaround, but if the DM is intent on removing higher power spell-casting you're going to create a problem for him fairly soon.

Quite possibly, but it's still a Beguiler.

BTW Did I mention that this build also gets Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration at the earliest possible level ?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Extremely dangerous yes. But if you nerf the Tier 1 PC classes, you effectively nerf the societies they spring from. So in a world with no Tier 1 casters in the human/elven/etc kingdoms, and SRD dragons in the mountains with full sorcerer casting, you'll expect those dragons to be ruling and/or ruining a lot more of the world than you do in a "standard" D&D setting.

If fiends are playing a major role in your campaign world, and they can use scry-and-die tactics and mortals can't, then that means either greater activity from Good-plane outsiders, with mortals basically refugees caught in the middle, or just have the fiends running rampant over the PRime Material Plane.

Or you come up with limitations on the fiends, so that groups of high-level humans and demihumans can still be competitive with the biggest relevant challenges out there.

Again, this is being overblown by a considerable margin.

Dragons generally have spellcasting as a sorcerer of around half their CR or less until they're ancient or older. CL and DC's will be in the toilet for them, leaving only buffs and battlefield control to use against adventurers, both of which a PC could dispel fairly easily. They're dangerous but they're -not- a sorcerer of the party's level at any point where they'd be an appropriate challenge and only the very oldest of them has the kind of world-shaking power that would put them at the top of the heap -if- they were interested in that sort of political dominance. Nevermind good dragons equalizing evil dragons as world powers, keeping both in check.

Fiendish scry-and-die isn't a thing. They get dimensional travel but none of them get any useful divination abilities, at least not any of the ones in the MM. Divination is pretty strictly in the province of T1 and T2 casters except for elemental weirds and a few other choice monsters.

[Ansem]

You can do perfectly fine without Clerics, Sorcerers and Wizards the same you can do perfectly fine without Rangers, Barbarians and Rogues, you take the bloody alternatives.
Scouts, Martial combatants, Soulknifes do well enough for the first. And there are ofcourse the Psions for a complete same shoe in a different package story and the tons of specialized casters. My advice as always though is to drop tier-list argumentation, we all want/can do better than 50 damage per round at lvl 20.

[foobar1969]

OP here. Thanks for all the great info.

A minor clarification: in my group, the DM isn't banning anything. We're discussing the idea of voluntarily choosing linear classes instead of quadratic ones, and considering what the ramifications would be.

I notice the common refrain of "healing comes from items, which come from the store". No thanks. Our goal is a literary high fantasy universe, where heroes are rare and it would be absurd to have substantial economic infrastructure based on their needs. Maybe wands of vigor could be a gift from grateful nobles, or manna from the gods, but we'd rather have unbalanced classes than Magic Mart.

[johnbragg]

OP here. Thanks for all the great info.

A minor clarification: in my group, the DM isn't banning anything. We're discussing the idea of voluntarily choosing linear classes instead of quadratic ones, and considering what the ramifications would be.

I notice the common refrain of "healing comes from items, which come from the store". No thanks. Our goal is a literary high fantasy universe, where heroes are rare and it would be absurd to have substantial economic infrastructure based on their needs. Maybe wands of vigor could be a gift from grateful nobles, or manna from the gods, but we'd rather have unbalanced classes than Magic Mart.

Or just add the Vigor line to the spell lists of the replacement caster classes you use.

Or just build "less access to healing" into what you're doing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

OP here. Thanks for all the great info.

A minor clarification: in my group, the DM isn't banning anything. We're discussing the idea of voluntarily choosing linear classes instead of quadratic ones, and considering what the ramifications would be.

I notice the common refrain of "healing comes from items, which come from the store". No thanks. Our goal is a literary high fantasy universe, where heroes are rare and it would be absurd to have substantial economic infrastructure based on their needs. Maybe wands of vigor could be a gift from grateful nobles, or manna from the gods, but we'd rather have unbalanced classes than Magic Mart.

Healing items aren't of substantial cost. 750 for a wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor is trivial by second level when the party splits the cost (which they should).

Otherwise there's nothing that casters can do that's strictly, absolutely necessary. Non-casters just do it slower. Teleportation is nice but you can still get from point A to point B by walking, climbing, carriage, boat, etc. Flight is a bit trickier but ranged weapons are a thing so, again, not absolutely necessary. Plane-hopping is a straight-up pain in the butt. It can be done, however, since planar rifts, breaches, and bleeds are things and if high level casters are around, just not in the party, then standing gates are possible as well.

Fighting casters, however, is extraordinarily difficult when you -do- have ready access to magic items. Without such access you steer clear or you rely entirely on the DM's mercy or incompetence.

The biggest concern is that with little to no access to magic items it will be difficult to get the simple +X boosters to attack, AC, saves, etc that the system simply expects you to have. You'll want to work out -something- with the DM to compensate or he'll have to be very careful in his selection of enemies. In the latter case CR will be nearly meaningless and properly selecting creatures becomes a lot more of a hassle.

[Philistine]

OP here. Thanks for all the great info.

A minor clarification: in my group, the DM isn't banning anything. We're discussing the idea of voluntarily choosing linear classes instead of quadratic ones, and considering what the ramifications would be.

I notice the common refrain of "healing comes from items, which come from the store". No thanks. Our goal is a literary high fantasy universe, where heroes are rare and it would be absurd to have substantial economic infrastructure based on their needs. Maybe wands of vigor could be a gift from grateful nobles, or manna from the gods, but we'd rather have unbalanced classes than Magic Mart.

D&D 3.X is particularly unsuited for this type of play, but no edition of D&D is really good at what you're looking for. Have you considered alternative systems?

[zlefin]

OP here. Thanks for all the great info.

A minor clarification: in my group, the DM isn't banning anything. We're discussing the idea of voluntarily choosing linear classes instead of quadratic ones, and considering what the ramifications would be.

I notice the common refrain of "healing comes from items, which come from the store". No thanks. Our goal is a literary high fantasy universe, where heroes are rare and it would be absurd to have substantial economic infrastructure based on their needs. Maybe wands of vigor could be a gift from grateful nobles, or manna from the gods, but we'd rather have unbalanced classes than Magic Mart.

actually, healing items would make tons of sense anyways.
Consider: full plate costs 1500 gp; and the strong lesser armors still run around 200-250; so for an army (i'm presuming you're playing in worlds which have armies?); having wands of cure light/lesser vigor for 750 apiece to quickly patchup 25-50 soldiers during/after a fight is a very worthwhile expenditure.
So the economic infrastructure would exist primarily to support armies; but would still support the occasional adventurer (if kingdom law allows)

[foobar1969]

Or just add the Vigor line to the spell lists of the replacement caster classes you use.
Yes, I was thinking the entire Healing subschool. But there aren't many divine casters in Tier 3 & 4. I guess we could make them arcane too.


D&D 3.X is particularly unsuited for this type of play, but no edition of D&D is really good at what you're looking for. Have you considered alternative systems?
Yes, but the player whose turn it is to GM has 3.X books and adventures he wants to use. And for me personally, 3.X is the only edition I haven't PNPed yet.


The biggest concern is that with little to no access to magic items it will be difficult to get the simple +X boosters to attack, AC, saves, etc that the system simply expects you to have.
The heroes will have inherent bonuses for some items.


having wands of cure light/lesser vigor for 750 apiece to quickly patchup 25-50 soldiers during/after a fight is a very worthwhile expenditure.
So the economic infrastructure would exist primarily to support armies; but would still support the occasional adventurer (if kingdom law allows)
True, this could work in larger wealthier areas.

Thanks.

[Ansem]

That reminds me that there were some tests with tier 4 party on these forums if I am not mistaken. Anyone knew how it ended? I found qwert-chan's test but there were more of them or not?

How is this a test, next to the fact you're banning party roles.