Enlarge Person --useless?

[JT]

Sorry if this topic already exists... I can't find a way to search this forum, even though the FAQ says that most of them are searchable. :(

Anyway, playing 3.5 edition tonight, and enlarge person was cast with the intent of being beneficial. As I read it...
1) my strength increases by 2, which gives a +1 to attack and damage.
2) my dex decreases by 2, which gives a -1 to reflex saves and AC.
3) I get a -1 attack modifier because of my increased size.
4) I get a -1 AC modifier because of my increased size
5) melee weapons increase in size, doing more damage.

Summed up, it looks like my attack roll stays the same (+1 from str, -1 due to size). My reflex saves get worse; my AC gets worse; my damage increases by +1; I am able to wield the larger weapon that I now have, which does a bit more damage on average.

Seems to me to be fairly worthless overall. Am I reading it wrong? Do people disagree with my assessment? Or is Enlarge Person really kinda useless?

[eggynack]

You're missing the part where a melee guy with a reach weapon, which should be most melee guys, will increase his reach to 15-20 feet. That's pretty amazing on an AoO tripping build, especially because increased size also increases trip checks, along with a number of other checks.

[Zanos]

It grants reach. This is great because anyone with 5ft reach, which is normal, will take an AoO for approaching you.

Edit:Ninja'd.

[Vamphyr]

Sorry if this topic already exists... I can't find a way to search this forum, even though the FAQ says that most of them are searchable. :(

Anyway, playing 3.5 edition tonight, and enlarge person was cast with the intent of being beneficial. As I read it...
1) my strength increases by 2, which gives a +1 to attack and damage.
2) my dex decreases by 2, which gives a -1 to reflex saves and AC.
3) I get a -1 attack modifier because of my increased size.
4) I get a -1 AC modifier because of my increased size
5) melee weapons increase in size, doing more damage.

Summed up, it looks like my attack roll stays the same (+1 from str, -1 due to size). My reflex saves get worse; my AC gets worse; my damage increases by +1; I am able to wield the larger weapon that I now have, which does a bit more damage on average.

Seems to me to be fairly worthless overall. Am I reading it wrong? Do people disagree with my assessment? Or is Enlarge Person really kinda useless?

I'm pretty sure the real benefit is the increase in your characters reach. It's especially effective for trip builds that need to have a lot of reach plus a spiked chain to keep opponents from moving anywhere.

RP wise it would make your melee character a bigger draw for enemy aggro as you suddenly double in size and swing a man-sized bladed weapon.

EDIT: Super ninja'd

[Greenish]

I am able to wield the larger weapon that I now have, which does a bit more damage on average.This is about 2 to 3.5 points of average damage, for most of the weapons BSF types wave about. Not terrible for a 1st level buff.

Increased size also increases combat maneuver modifiers, intimidate modifier, vertical reach (as per the Jump skill), carrying capacity and miscellaneous stuff like that.


But yeah, the main draw is the reach.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're also forgetting the special size modifiers for various things.

+4 to grapple
+4(relative) to intimidate
+4 to the opposed attacks on disarm and sunder
+4 to trip attempts

and maybe a couple more I'm forgetting too.

[nyjastul69]

This is about 2 to 3.5 points of average damage, for most of the weapons BSF types wave about. Not terrible for a 1st level buff.

Increased size also increases combat maneuver modifiers, intimidate modifier, vertical reach (as per the Jump skill), carrying capacity and miscellaneous stuff like that.


But yeah, the main draw is the reach.

These sound like PF benefits. The OP stated 3.5 rules. Reach in 3.5 allows for vertical as well as horizontal reach. Does PF not allow for vertical reach without jumping?

[Scow2]

Yeah... despite its few drawbacks, Enlarge Person is a pretty great buff, especially at low levels, when AC tends to be higher than enemy attack bonuses can reliably hit anyway.

[eggynack]

These sound like PF benefits. The OP stated 3.5 rules. Reach in 3.5 allows for vertical as well as horizontal reach. Does PF not allow for vertical reach without jumping?
It looks like he's talking about 3.5, and was just using jumping as an example of how vertical reach can be used. Most of these factors seem to hold stable across the two systems, so it's kinda irrelevant which one we're talking about.

[Greenish]

These sound like PF benefits. The OP stated 3.5 rules. Reach in 3.5 allows for vertical as well as horizontal reach. Does PF not allow for vertical reach without jumping?I meant "vertical reach" in the sense of "height the creature can reach without jumping". That's why I was referring to the Jump skill (which doesn't even exist in PF).

[Edit]: I need some tea in my system to properly express myself. I don't mean the combat "can I hit it?" reach but the "can I get the jar of jam from the top shelf?" reach.

[nyjastul69]

It looks like he's talking about 3.5, and was just using jumping as an example of how vertical reach can be used. Most of these factors seem to hold stable across the two systems, so it's kinda irrelevant which one we're talking about.

The combat maneuvers bit is what made me think that. I've never heard that term used in regards to 3.5.

[eggynack]

The combat maneuvers bit is what made me think that. I've never heard that term used in regards to 3.5.
Ah. I've heard it on occasion, used to refer to the stuff that it would seem to refer to. It could always be a back-ported term, but I wouldn't know for sure.

[Greenish]

Aren't Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush etc. referred to as combat maneuvers in 3.5 discussions?

Damn, then I've been doing it all wrong for ages. :smalleek:

[eggynack]

Aren't Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush etc. referred to as combat maneuvers in 3.5 discussions?

Damn, then I've been doing it all wrong for ages. :smalleek:
I think they are referred to in that manner, and I'm pretty sure that I do on occasion. I'm just not sure if it's terminology native to the system's lexicon, or something that we adopted from PF. Anyway, I'm probably just going to keep using the term, cause it's kinda nifty. I don't even know what I'd replace it with.

[Greenish]

Is "combat maneuver modifiers" even a term in PF? I mean, PF has Combat Maneuver Bonus (which is a modifier on a roll) and Combat Maneuver Defense (which a fixed number, not a modifier).

[eggynack]

Is "combat maneuver modifiers" even a term in PF? I mean, PF has Combat Maneuver Bonus (which is a modifier on a roll) and Combat Maneuver Defense (which a fixed number, not a modifier).
I'm not sure, but the latter two would be enough. Combat maneuver is the term in question here, I think, and any modifiers, like the term "modifier", could easily come from different sources

[Lord Vukodlak]

I meant "vertical reach" in the sense of "height the creature can reach without jumping". That's why I was referring to the Jump skill (which doesn't even exist in PF).
It was merged with tumble into a single skill "acrobatics" but its all still there. Including vertical reach.

[Greenish]

It was merged with tumble into a single skill "acrobatics" but its all still there. Including vertical reach.As previously alluded, I'm terrible at explaining myself before I get my tea. I meant "Jump skill" specifically, with capital J, not just a skill to use for jumping.

[Edit]:
I'm not sure, but the latter two would be enough. Combat maneuver is the term in question here, I think, and any modifiers, like the term "modifier", could easily come from different sourcesOh, I hadn't even realized the section they're in just refers to them as "Special Attacks". Fair enough.

[Eldariel]

While my memory wants to say we've used the term "Combat Maneuver" before PF, it's probably just conveniently picked up from PF beta. The term in 3.5 PHB is "Special Attacks".
EDIT: And I get swordsage'd. How 3.5.


And yeah, Enlarge Person is actually really strong. Strength amounts to 1-1.5 extra damage (for one and two-handers respectively) and size increase is usually 2+ damage. Guisarme/Spiked Chain goes from 2d4 to 2d6 (average 2 points), Longsword goes from 1d8 to 2d6 (average 2.5 points), Greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6 (average 3.5 points), Fullblade [A&EG] goes from 2d8 to 3d8 (average 4.5 points). Only the smallest of weapons (1d6- only grow by 1 average damage) have poor scaling here.

Reach is the primary reason for this. Non-reach weapon character gets reach to take all those tasty AoOs they have each round, and characters with reach weapons become huge walking "No"-zones. This goes a long way towards mitigating the AC penalty too; enemies can't hit you if they can't reach you. In addition, getting a nice damage bonus and all the combat maneuver bonuses (particularly awesome for a character who is already focused on e.g. Tripping or Grappling) is just awesome. Enlarge Person is a premium buff and the best you can find on level 1.

[Rubik]

Don't forget that a Medium fighter specialized in grappling can't do anything whatsoever if he's caught in a grapple with a Huge-sized creature, even though that's his schtick. Cast Enlarge Person, and now he can. Once again, a great example of low tier classes not even being able to pull their own weight.

[eggynack]

Don't forget that a Medium fighter specialized in grappling can't do anything whatsoever if he's caught in a grapple with a Huge-sized creature, even though that's his schtick. Cast Enlarge Person, and now he can. Once again, a great example of low tier classes not even being able to pull their own weight.
Why would that be the case? It looks like the size restriction only applies on an attempt to start a grapple, while other effects are available regardless of size. The medium fellow is going to be at a massive disadvantage, but as long as you're being grappled, instead of grappling, you should have no non-numerical issues.

[Skevvix]

Why would that be the case? It looks like the size restriction only applies on an attempt to start a grapple, while other effects are available regardless of size. The medium fellow is going to be at a massive disadvantage, but as long as you're being grappled, instead of grappling, you should have no non-numerical issues.


A medium PC automatically fails the grapple check against a huge creature.


Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

[eggynack]

A medium PC automatically fails the grapple check against a huge creature.
As I noted, that only applies to the attempt to hold, which is what starts off the grapple. If the two fellows are holding each other already, that rule doesn't come into play.

[Greenish]

A medium PC automatically fails the grapple check against a huge creature.That's not what the section you quoted says.

But arguing about grapple rules is like arguing whether the thing on a troll's face should be called "a wart", "a growth", or possibly "a nose". One way or the other, it doesn't change the fact that the troll is ugly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As I noted, that only applies to the attempt to hold, which is what starts off the grapple. If the two fellows are holding each other already, that rule doesn't come into play.

Relying on the other guy to start your favored form of combat isn't really the best plan. Odds are that a critter that grapples you is a critter that's good at grappling, which means a tight contest unless you're min-maxed to hell and back, while a critter that doesn't want to grapple you.... doesn't.

[eggynack]

That's not what the section you quoted says.

But arguing about grapple rules is like arguing whether the thing on a troll's face should be called "a wart", "a growth", or possibly "a nose". One way or the other, it doesn't change the fact that the troll is ugly.


Relying on the other guy to start your favored form of combat isn't really the best plan. Odds are that a critter that grapples you is a critter that's good at grappling, which means a tight contest unless you're min-maxed to hell and back, while a critter that doesn't want to grapple you.... doesn't.
Oh, very much yes. You've basically gotta be a druid for me to think that grappling is viable. I've seen builds, mostly involving bear warrior, that look good at it, but I just can't abide by that level of action for action trading. The huge creature will laugh at the medium creature's attempts to do anything but fail in a grapple, so the fact that this option is available is largely meaningless, but it is an option, and I think that knowing the actual rules for this stuff is important.

[Skevvix]

As I noted, that only applies to the attempt to hold, which is what starts off the grapple. If the two fellows are holding each other already, that rule doesn't come into play.

For some reason I thought that applied to all opposed grapple checks, but you're right, it only calls that out in the Hold section. So you would not be able to initiate a grapple with a huge if you are med, but if grappling is your schtick and a monster makes the bad choice of snagging you up, break it's arms off.

[Maginomicon]

This is kind-of a fringe case, but a shinomen naga (Oriental Adventures page 172) is a large-sized humanoid (for chameleon, asp, or cobra, best for most humanoids) or huge-sized humanoid (for constrictor, best for large humanoids) that as far as I can tell qualifies for alter self and enlarge person, so with those two spells you can increase your size to huge or even gargantuan.

[Thurbane]

They were errata'd to be Monstrous Humanoids in either the issue of Dragon that had the 3.5 OA update, or in a general 3.0 - 3.5 update, can't remember which off the top of my head.

[Karnith]

They were errata'd to be Monstrous Humanoids in either the issue of Dragon that had the 3.5 OA update, or in a general 3.0 - 3.5 update, can't remember which off the top of my head.
It was in Dragon Magazine #318. The OA errata proper didn't change that much about the Shinomen Nagas.

[Dalebert]

...as far as I can tell qualifies for alter self and enlarge person, so with those two spells you can increase your size to huge or even gargantuan.

From Enlarge Person:
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

I've been a huge fan of EP ever since someone used it in a game I am DMing on the barbarian and she suddenly had this massive threatened area (AoO and things like Cleave) and her great axe was brutal in dmg combined with the dmg things she already had to enhance it. And that was without a reach weapon. A reach weapon + EP? OMG...

[Maginomicon]

From Enlarge Person:
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
Not that it matters since they were corrected to Monstrous Humanoids, but alter-selfing into something that coincidentally happens to be larger and then using another effect that explicitly changes your size arguably stacks size increases even with that no-stacking rule.

[Curmudgeon]

I like to use Enlarge Person as an offensive spell rather than a buff. Cast on a lightly loaded enemy, in settings sized for Medium creatures, they've suddenly got troubles:

An 8x increase in the weight of their gear usually pushes them up to medium encumbrance, slowing them down.
The size increase reduces their AC and attack bonus.
The squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) rules cost them double movement while also penalizing both their AC and attacks.

[The Trickster]

Also, a lot of monks will invest in a wand of Enlarge Person, not only for the grappling and tripping, but for the increase in unarmed strike damage.

[Winds of Nagual]

Don't forget if you ever need to stand on someone's shoulders!

[Dalebert]

Not that it matters since they were corrected to Monstrous Humanoids, but alter-selfing into something that coincidentally happens to be larger and then using another effect that explicitly changes your size arguably stacks size increases even with that no-stacking rule.

It will still matter if someone uses a polymorph spell with broader limits. You're claiming that using a shape-shifting spell to turn into something that is bigger than you is not a magical effect that increases your size? Both by RAW and intent, that seems pretty obvious, but good luck to you convincing your DM.

[InigoMontoya]

Reach is the primary reason for this. Non-reach weapon character gets reach to take all those tasty AoOs they have each round, and characters with reach weapons become huge walking "No"-zones. This goes a long way towards mitigating the AC penalty too; enemies can't hit you if they can't reach you. In addition, getting a nice damage bonus and all the combat maneuver bonuses (particularly awesome for a character who is already focused on e.g. Tripping or Grappling) is just awesome. Enlarge Person is a premium buff and the best you can find on level 1.

Only real competition for "Best Buff" is Reduce Person. +2 to hit with range weapons, +2 AC, only -1 damage with thrown weapons, no penalty to damage at all for energy weapons (Eldritch Blast, etc). Great for ray characters and sneak attackers. In addition, if you get to tiny, you can move through enemy spaces really easily, and you can get your hide bonus to "stupid high".

All in all, Reduce Person is a great accuracy/defense/utility buff, and Enlarge is a great combat control buff.

[Lord Vukodlak]

An 8x increase in the weight of their gear usually pushes them up to medium encumbrance, slowing them down.
That's not what enlarge person does. The creature weigh 8x as much. The equipment resizes to accommodate the new form but equipment weight goes up in size the same way carrying capacity does it doubles.

[Dalebert]

All in all, Reduce Person is a great accuracy/defense/utility buff, and Enlarge is a great combat control buff.

Heck yeah. My transmuter prepares both and is planning to make eternal wands of both to save spell slots.

[eggynack]

Only real competition for "Best Buff" is Reduce Person. +2 to hit with range weapons, +2 AC, only -1 damage with thrown weapons, no penalty to damage at all for energy weapons (Eldritch Blast, etc). Great for ray characters and sneak attackers. In addition, if you get to tiny, you can move through enemy spaces really easily, and you can get your hide bonus to "stupid high".

All in all, Reduce Person is a great accuracy/defense/utility buff, and Enlarge is a great combat control buff.
I don't think there's much comparison, especially for combat purposes. Enlarge person provides a qualitative benefit, through the reach factor, while reduce is mostly limited to quantitative buffs. At a minute/level duration, I feel like there either needs to be a qualitative buff, or a massive quantitative buff to justify the action cost, or there's not much point. In other words, I probably wouldn't even consider enlarge worthwhile in most cases without the reach thing.

[Coidzor]

I agree that Reach is the main appeal of Enlarge Person.

Reduce Person, especially when combined with kobolds with the web enhancement's slight build (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), can be rather tasty for lateral thinking purposes though.

[AMFV]

I like to use Enlarge Person as an offensive spell rather than a buff. Cast on a lightly loaded enemy, in settings sized for Medium creatures, they've suddenly got troubles:

An 8x increase in the weight of their gear usually pushes them up to medium encumbrance, slowing them down.
The size increase reduces their AC and attack bonus.
The squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) rules cost them double movement while also penalizing both their AC and attacks.


It should be noted that the spell only explicitly multiplies the weight of the character by eight and may not do the same for their equipment. This could be a potential issue with this application as far as RAW goes. Otherwise it's a pretty acceptable use for the spell, particularly if you use reduce person on yourself to find an escape route they can no longer follow you into.

Secondly it'd be a pretty amazing way to deal with some of the problems in Tucker's Kobolds. So outside of the first issue, it's a pretty amazing use of the spell that I certainly hadn't thought of.

[Curmudgeon]

The equipment resizes to accommodate the new form but equipment weight goes up in size the same way carrying capacity does it doubles.
That's not what Enlarge Person says. If you buy equipment of a larger size then that new equipment follows the rules for gear designed for larger characters. However, Enlarge Person only says:
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8.
...
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. "Similarly enlarged" means it doubles in length and its weight is multiplied by 8.

Spells only do what they say they do, not what we might wish them to do. (Plus, its way out of line in terms of power to assume a low-level spell is re-engineering gear; that requires explicit statements in the spell description.)

[1pwny]

It really doesn't matter about weight of armor: late game, most characters will want to have enough items to be just under the weight limit of their desired load. If you multiply the weight of ALL items by 8, but only increase strength by two...

Look up weights, loads, and corresponding strength scores. But effectively, you could easily go from light => greater than heavy, forcing you to probably drop some of your things, and maybe gt crushed.

[Dalebert]

Just for poops and giggles, I applied Enlarge Person to one of my armorless spellcasters with a decent STR of 12 (for a caster). He had 16 lbs of gear with 30 being what puts him into medium enc. 16 lbs * 8 = 128 which puts him heavy encumbered with a 14 STR.

This is clearly something they didn't think through when they wrote up the spell. It's certainly not the intent, but by RAW, it's accurate. As a DM, I would reinterpret this spell and say that it grows you enough to put you in the large category and perhaps doubles your weight. There are plenty of large creatures that do not weigh anywhere near what this spell is doing to an average human.

Alternatively, you could say it grows your carrying capacity accordingly but not other factors of STR, but then players could rules-rape that and use it to pick up ridiculously heavy things after dropping most of their gear. That doesn't really sound game-breaking though.

[Curmudgeon]

If you multiply the weight of ALL items by 8, but only increase strength by two...
The easy way to work this out is that it's the same encumbrance effect as if you stayed the same size and Strength, but your gear tripled in weight. So Enlarge Person works pretty well for those essentially naked Monks, and Fighters who are already encumbered by their armor. Other characters may find it more of a hindrance than an advantage.

[Subaru Kujo]

Only real competition for "Best Buff" is Reduce Person. +2 to hit with range weapons, +2 AC, only -1 damage with thrown weapons, no penalty to damage at all for energy weapons (Eldritch Blast, etc). Great for ray characters and sneak attackers. In addition, if you get to tiny, you can move through enemy spaces really easily, and you can get your hide bonus to "stupid high".

All in all, Reduce Person is a great accuracy/defense/utility buff, and Enlarge is a great combat control buff.

And all that makes me quite confused for what buff I should get for my rogue/fighter since he has a 60ft chain...

[Greenish]

And all that makes me quite confused for what buff I should get for my rogue/fighter since he has a 60ft chain...I recommend "Hide from DM's Avenging Wrath".

[Subaru Kujo]

I recommend "Hide from DM's Avenging Wrath".

I would if he hadn't gave the thing to me in the first place :p

[TypoNinja]

I like to use Enlarge Person as an offensive spell rather than a buff. Cast on a lightly loaded enemy, in settings sized for Medium creatures, they've suddenly got troubles:

An 8x increase in the weight of their gear usually pushes them up to medium encumbrance, slowing them down.
The size increase reduces their AC and attack bonus.
The squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) rules cost them double movement while also penalizing both their AC and attacks.


This is freaking brilliant. I must remember to use this with my Mystic Thurge.

[Greenish]

In that case, Reduce Person, for the bonus to Dex for more AoO (since you're basically required to get Combat Reflexes).

Unless tripper. If tripper, use Enlarge Person, find a comfy inn, and beat down everything within the nearby dungeon with your awesome reach (from the inn, natch).

[Thurbane]

I find Reduce Person is a really underutilized buff.

For anyone not heavily relying on Strength or weapon damage (i.e. sneak attackers, ranged touch attackers etc.), it's great.

+2 Dex
+1 size bonus to AC
+1 size bonus to hit
No loss of base move (which small characters often suffer)
No loss of reach (assuming medium to small. Small to tiny loses reach).

[Kelb_Panthera]

The easy way to work this out is that it's the same encumbrance effect as if you stayed the same size and Strength, but your gear tripled in weight. So Enlarge Person works pretty well for those essentially naked Monks, and Fighters who are already encumbered by their armor. Other characters may find it more of a hindrance than an advantage.

While this may be technically correct, I've never seen a DM rule this way. It's quite probably an oversight rather than a conscious decision that the spell's designer made and, IME, it's always been treated as such.

[Coidzor]

While this may be technically correct, I've never seen a DM rule this way. It's quite probably an oversight rather than a conscious decision that the spell's designer made and, IME, it's always been treated as such.

Dysfunctional Rules thread it? :smallconfused:

[Doorhandle]

I meant "vertical reach" in the sense of "height the creature can reach without jumping". That's why I was referring to the Jump skill (which doesn't even exist in PF).

[Edit]: I need some tea in my system to properly express myself. I don't mean the combat "can I hit it?" reach but the "can I get the jar of jam from the top shelf?" reach.

Probably, seeing as jumping is under acrobatics now.

[Lightlawbliss]

Dysfunctional Rules thread it? :smallconfused:

probably, who wants to do the honors?

[137beth]

Wow...
I've been handwaving encumbrance for so long, using EP to force an opponent to drop stuff never would have occurred to me...
Now I know what to do to beat Codzilla:amused:

[Eldariel]

Wow...
I've been handwaving encumbrance for so long, using EP to force an opponent to drop stuff never would have occurred to me...
Now I know what to do to beat Codzilla:amused:

Don't CoDZillas walk around with like 30-50 strength on level 10? That tends to be enough for stuff they wanna carry, even Giant Sized :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

Don't CoDZillas walk around with like 30-50 strength on level 10? That tends to be enough for stuff they wanna carry, even Giant Sized :smallbiggrin:

Yeah. One does not simply encumber a cleric.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Large size doubles the carry capacity.

[olentu]

While my memory wants to say we've used the term "Combat Maneuver" before PF, it's probably just conveniently picked up from PF beta. The term in 3.5 PHB is "Special Attacks".
EDIT: And I get swordsage'd. How 3.5.

Huh, I generally thought people picked up the name from the telekinesis spell entry (lumping in overrun and sunder) so as to have a different term from the monster manual use of special attacks.

[nedz]

Dysfunctional Rules thread it? :smallconfused:

I'm not sure it is dysfunctional, it seems to work as designed. There are many characters it wouldn't effect at all, including all three which I'm playing at the moment (Dwarf Ranger, Human Gish and Gnome Sorcerer FWIW).

[Eldariel]

Huh, I generally thought people picked up the name from the telekinesis spell entry (lumping in overrun and sunder) so as to have a different term from the monster manual use of special attacks.

That sounds plausible, but I cannot confirm it one way or another; only uses of "Combat Maneuvers" I can find on Wizards boards before 2009 seem to refer to ToB for instance.

[olentu]

That sounds plausible, but I cannot confirm it one way or another; only uses of "Combat Maneuvers" I can find on Wizards boards before 2009 seem to refer to ToB for instance.

There is certainly the possibility that it only happened with a subset of people (some of which I played with) and was not a widespread thing as it does show up in a few places but may not be the most common thing. For example this http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1073596 would seem to be using the term to describe trip, grapple, etc.

[Pickford]

Skevvix:

So you would not be able to initiate a grapple with a huge if you are med, but if grappling is your schtick and a monster makes the bad choice of snagging you up, break it's arms off.

That would seem to be part of the point in investing in those feats. If you get into the awkward position of being grappled, you can actually still do something.


Curmudgeon, this part:

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell.

doesn't necessarily mean a x8 multiplier. Similarly could simply mean: It also becomes the next larger size category, just as the humanoid did. Because of the reliance on the word similarly, and also the laundry list of things in between those two sentences (does the equipment also gain a +2 str bonus and suffer a loss of AC?) it's likely the meaning of that sentence is simply: Equipment grows with the subject.

Dalebert:

Just for poops and giggles, I applied Enlarge Person to one of my armorless spellcasters with a decent STR of 12 (for a caster). He had 16 lbs of gear with 30 being what puts him into medium enc. 16 lbs * 8 = 128 which puts him heavy encumbered with a 14 STR.

This is clearly something they didn't think through when they wrote up the spell. It's certainly not the intent, but by RAW, it's accurate. As a DM, I would reinterpret this spell and say that it grows you enough to put you in the large category and perhaps doubles your weight. There are plenty of large creatures that do not weigh anywhere near what this spell is doing to an average human.

Alternatively, you could say it grows your carrying capacity accordingly but not other factors of STR, but then players could rules-rape that and use it to pick up ridiculously heavy things after dropping most of their gear. That doesn't really sound game-breaking though.

Assuming the gear actually did multiply its weight by 8, remember as a large creature carrying capacity is also doubled. So it's a light load up to 116 lbs at 14 str, and medium load at 128 lbs. (232 lbs is the limit on medium load for a large creature)

[Maginomicon]

It will still matter if someone uses a polymorph spell with broader limits. You're claiming that using a shape-shifting spell to turn into something that is bigger than you is not a magical effect that increases your size? Both by RAW and intent, that seems pretty obvious, but good luck to you convincing your DM.
That line is likely a reference to how two effects with the same name don't stack (i.e. enlarge person + enlarge person doesn't stack). Further, there are other effects such as Giant Size (Wu Jen 7) that explicitly state they change size. There's also the bit in [IIRC the Rules Compendium, but it may have been PHB2] that says that the order in which the effects are applied matters. If they didn't stack, the order wouldn't matter.

[Rubik]

Neither Alter Self nor Polymorph can change one's size category beyond one step in either direction, so it does make sense that other size-altering magics, such as Enlarge Person, would prevent you from size-stacking to take advantage of this. Polymorph is based on Alter Self, which says that its size-based qualifications are based on your "normal" size, so you can't stack those two together, either.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, wonder if you could exploit Permanent Reduce Person somehow to make you immune to Baleful Polymorph? :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Hmm, wonder if you could exploit Permanent Reduce Person somehow to make you immune to Baleful Polymorph? :smallbiggrin:*Bamf* Poodle.

[Curmudgeon]

*Bamf* Poodle.
Yes, if the PAO new form didn't change sizes, then you wouldn't be protected via the size stacking limits in spells. But if they tried Polymorph Any Object to turn you into a Toad instead of a Poodle, that one will fail. How many level 8 spells can they cast without effect before they have to try a different approach?

[Rubik]

Yes, if the PAO new form didn't change sizes, then you wouldn't be protected via the size stacking limits in spells. But if they tried Polymorph Any Object to turn you into a Toad instead of a Poodle, that one will fail. How many level 8 spells can they cast without effect before they have to try a different approach?PAO couldn't turn a human into a toad anyway, unless it's Small, Medium, or Large sized (or it used . Luckily, despite the tables in PAO, the spell doesn't have any overrides on Alter Self's more-than-one-size-category text, so Reduce Person (or Enlarge) is a good defense, although PAO can still take an Enlarged human from Large to Small without issue.

[edit] Wait, PAO can emulate Baleful Polymorph. I guess a regular PAO wouldn't work, but Baleful Polymorph could. And since you're not stacking size changes, but instead are going right to the toad's size category, Enlarge/Reduce Person wouldn't protect you from it.

[Chronos]

For everyone suggesting offensive use of Enlarge Person, remember that it's Fort Negates when used on an unwilling subject. Using an action to cast a single-target save-or-suck with a low save DC, which won't even completely shut down the target, just inconvenience them, and which might even make them more powerful if you've misjudged their build, doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Yeah, if you have the spell prepared anyway for use on your own fighter, it's an option that might occasionally come up, but that's going to be pretty rare.

[TypoNinja]

For everyone suggesting offensive use of Enlarge Person, remember that it's Fort Negates when used on an unwilling subject. Using an action to cast a single-target save-or-suck with a low save DC, which won't even completely shut down the target, just inconvenience them, and which might even make them more powerful if you've misjudged their build, doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Yeah, if you have the spell prepared anyway for use on your own fighter, it's an option that might occasionally come up, but that's going to be pretty rare.

No but there's always those times when you are running low on spells, all your prefered options are gone, and its time to get creative in spell application.

Enlarge Person doesn't see any use in my group despite us having a beatstick. Most beasticks try to pick up large size anyway, like a +1 Half Orgre LA they can buy off by level 4 that comes with racial Str and Con. But that makes you a monstrous humanoid and Enlarge doesn't work anymore.

Large is good for melee, but large naturally instead of waiting for the buff is even better.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe I've been doing it wrong this entire time, but going from Medium to Large (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) carries more benefits than are delineated in enlarge person.

+8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 Natural AC, -1 AC, -1 Atk.

[Dalebert]

remember as a large creature carrying capacity is also doubled.

Wait... please tell me that the reverse isn't true. Do small creatures have their capacity halved on top of losing 2 points of STR? That could be brutal.

[Scow2]

Maybe I've been doing it wrong this entire time, but going from Medium to Large (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) carries more benefits than are delineated in enlarge person.

+8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 Natural AC, -1 AC, -1 Atk.Those are for if a creatures size increases naturally through hit dice, not is magically enlarged as per Enlarge Person or Animal Growth (or any Polymorph effect, for that matter).
Wait... please tell me that the reverse isn't true. Do small creatures have their capacity halved on top of losing 2 points of STR? That could be brutal.Yes, but their gear is reduced to 1/8th the weight.

[Fax Celestis]

Wait... please tell me that the reverse isn't true. Do small creatures have their capacity halved on top of losing 2 points of STR? That could be brutal.


Bigger and Smaller Creatures
The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×¾, Tiny ×½, Diminutive ×¼, Fine ×1/8.

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than characters can. Instead of the multipliers given above, multiply the value corresponding to the creature’s Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×¼, Diminutive ×½, Tiny ×¾, Small ×1, Medium ×1½, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#biggerandSmallerCreatures

Also note, though, that equipment made for smaller creatures weighs significantly less than normal.


Weight figures are for Medium weapons. A Small weapon weighs half as much, and a Large weapon weighs twice as much.



Weight figures are for armor sized to fit Medium characters. Armor fitted for Small characters weighs half as much, and armor fitted for Large characters weighs twice as much.



These items weigh one-quarter this amount when made for Small characters. Containers for Small characters also carry one-quarter the normal amount.

Since carrying capacities decrease at a fixed rate for small characters (Small capacity is 75% of Medium; Tiny capacity is 75% of Small; etc.), we can also presume that equipment weights also progresses at a fixed rate (a Small weapon is 50% as heavy as a Medium version of the same; a Tiny weapon is 50% as heavy as a Small; etc.).

[Chronos]

Quoth Dalebert:

Wait... please tell me that the reverse isn't true. Do small creatures have their capacity halved on top of losing 2 points of STR? That could be brutal.
Well, not quite that bad, but it's 3/4 the capacity of a medium creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#biggerandSmallerCreatures). In practice, it's not a problem for the equipment you actually wear, since that's lighter than the equivalent equipment for a medium creature, and for things that you don't wear, that's what Handy Haversacks (or pack mules, at low levels) are for.

[Big Fau]

Maybe I've been doing it wrong this entire time, but going from Medium to Large (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) carries more benefits than are delineated in enlarge person.

+8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 Natural AC, -1 AC, -1 Atk.

While this would make the spell significantly more powerful than Bull's Strength (and some forms for Alter Self), it wouldn't be overwhelming as a buff spell if you removed the +4 Con.

[Dalebert]

Well, not quite that bad, but it's 3/4 the capacity of a medium creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#biggerandSmallerCreatures). In practice, it's not a problem for the equipment you actually wear, since that's lighter than the equivalent equipment for a medium creature, and for things that you don't wear, that's what Handy Haversacks (or pack mules, at low levels) are for.

But it's stacked with being -2 STR. I honestly don't understand why their armor is only half the weight. It should be 1/4 the weight. Imagine a shirt that's is half height and half the width, but the thickness of the cloth is the same so you don't also halve the "depth". It's probably fine though. I don't know if it's that bad yet. As soon as I bought some stuph, I was medium encumbered with an 8 STR but I'm trying to see how much I actually need to carry.

[Thurbane]

To paraphrase the Simpsons:

"As for RAW versus Real World Physics, I'm issuing a restraining order. RAW must stay 500 yards from Real World Physics at all times."

[Susano-wo]

RE enlarge person making their equip weigh 8x more...um, no? I understand that you put the ellipses in there, Curmudgeon, but if you look at the whole spell description, there is a lot that goes in between.
SRD entry for enlarge person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm)

So, first off, its not like the spell is all" ok, so you get these buffs, you weigh 8x more, and your equipment is changed similarly". There's a bunch of other changes in there, like your reach and space increasing, etc. that doesn't preclude the equipment being 8x heavier, but it removes the appearance of strong implication.

as far as the entry on what happens to equipment, it says that its affected similarly(note: not in the exact same way, necessarily) enlarged by the spell. Enlarged. The spell only does what it says:smallamused:, so it does *nothing* to the weight, it only makes it bigger. (or, alternately, the equipment is of an unspecified new weight that doesn't matter, and the encumbrance level of the creature is unchanged, since that makes sense--or at least as much sense as large sized creatures, etc tend to make anyway[giant spiders anyone?])

[Talya]

Don't CoDZillas walk around with like 30-50 strength on level 10? That tends to be enough for stuff they wanna carry, even Giant Sized :smallbiggrin:

Size modifying magic doesn't stack. CoDzillas rely heavily on Righteous Might or wildshape.

[Chronos]

I'm actually finding on my clerzilla that Righteous Might is pretty low on my list of priorities. I wouldn't say no to it if I could get it for free, of course, but there are already more spells I'd like than I can persist before I even get to it, and it's seldom worth the action in battle.

[ericgrau]

If you have reach or you grapple or trip it helps more. As for a wizard casting it on a human barbarian with a greatsword, ya that's so minor that it's a waste of your time. Even in the buffing rounds there are usually better buffs. Let him blow some chump change on potions.

Outside of the buffing round it's questionable either way when you could be attacking that round. Usually a net loss.

[Greenish]

Large is good for melee, but large naturally instead of waiting for the buff is even better.Well, unless there's lots of fighting in cramped spaces (like houses designed for humans, or in dungeons). Natural Large doesn't come without at least +2 LA (outside a few disreputable sources), and then you burn a feat for Tunnel Fighting to not eat large penalties for squeezing.

It might be worth it for a chain tripper without reliable caster support, but even then, I'd go Psychic Warrior and just do it myself. :smalltongue:

Maybe I've been doing it wrong this entire time, but going from Medium to Large (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) carries more benefits than are delineated in enlarge person.

+8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 Natural AC, -1 AC, -1 Atk.I thought that only applies when you advance monster HD and they grow from that.

[InigoMontoya]

I don't think there's much comparison, especially for combat purposes. Enlarge person provides a qualitative benefit, through the reach factor, while reduce is mostly limited to quantitative buffs. At a minute/level duration, I feel like there either needs to be a qualitative buff, or a massive quantitative buff to justify the action cost, or there's not much point. In other words, I probably wouldn't even consider enlarge worthwhile in most cases without the reach thing.

Without reach, Enlarge is mostly not worthwhile.

However, don't underestimate +2 to hit at low levels, or +5 to hide, or +2 to AC. Or all three together.

In addition, tiny creatures can always move through enemy spaces, which opens up new tactical options (a qualitative buff). There is also positive interaction with small size and certain swordsage maneuvers.

I understand what you're saying, but at low levels, Reduce is an amazing spell, and it keeps viability higher up. At level 1, the difference between a halfling rogue with 18 dex and studded leather, and one with mage the same and reduce? AC 18 vs 20, making it quite a bit more unlikely to hit the rogue. +7 to hit vs +5, making hitting much more likely. +13 to hide vs +8, increasing the chance of getting sneak attack off. Ability to move through enemy squares, allowing for several tactics (total defense + move could suck out all the AOO's, for example, and set up a flank for other party members, and for sneak attack next round).

Reduce is a great buff, when used well, since these boosts last the entire combat. Yeah, it won't control a battlefield as well as Solid Fog, but that's not what it's about.