Decreasing magical supremacy

[Naomi Li]

In a lot of ways, magic in D&D universes flat out beats physical actions without any contest, unless the squishy caster is hit first. What changes would you implement to make physical activities able to stand up to magic directly?

One thing that I believe is direly needed is allowing for force effects to be sundered. Otherwise simply throwing one up (wall of force, mage armor, whatever) and they're going to stick around until the duration ends unless a spellcaster fights them. By making them sunderable, physical actions can directly take them down too.

To make this a reality, they need to be assigned hardness and hit point values. Does hardness = spell level *3 and hit points = caster level * 2 seem reasonable?

If spells other than force effects are an issue, this could be expanded to encompass all spell effects that are not instantaneous.

Another one is "every creatures gets spell resistance" just like every creature gets an AC value. However, spell resistance, as written, is a double-edged sword, and thus a slight modification is needed: for inherent spell resistance, spells can be let through as a free action.

A proper value for this is a bit harder to figure out, but does 10 + wisdom + 1/2 HD and boostable by feats and magic items seem good?

Any comments/critiques/other suggestions/whatever?

(I do hope this is in the right forum... if not, please do move it to the proper one)

[eggynack]

The change to force effects is obviously not going to alter the game in a very significant way. The SR thing is more likely to change stuff, but certainly not enough to end the reign of magical supremacy. This is mostly because of how many spells, mostly of the conjuration and transmutation schools, never touch SR. Wizards wouldn't even be lowered a tier. It'd help though. Also, I'd key SR off of charisma, instead of wisdom. It just feels right to me somehow, and charisma has always had the short end of the stick.

[Komatik]

You don't. Not without nerfing magic first. The spell effects themselves are hideously broken, to the point that allowing mundanes some more ways of interfacing with them is nearly irrelevant if we're talking about sufficiently paranoid casters.

The first step, I think, is theming spellcasters way more heavily. That way they hopefully have access to only one kind of campaign-breaking nonsense instead of ten. Or twenty. After that, extra interactivity from mundanes might do something.

One good thing to do is to enforce the use of the ToB - Warblades especially have some rudimentary defenses against magic that actually work and are innate to the Warblade being a competent badass. Iron Heart Surge should be rewritten, it works and doesn't work in pretty unintuitive situations. (Shaking off a Hold Person? Nope!)

[Juntao112]

How about we apply the banhammer to problematic spells?

[Eldariel]

Pathfinder does the change you suggest to Force-effects (see e.g. PF Wall of Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-force)). They're Hardness 30, HP 20*CL, which I think is reasonable. They can still be destroyed by exceptional individuals but that's not easy.

I don't really like giving everyone Spell Resistance that much. I mean, AC isn't really the primary defense vs. physical attacks either; HP are. Spells are mostly defended against with Saves and Touch AC. Spell Resistance would need to be much higher than HD+11 to truly stop high-end casters but it would be hard to buff with the system not really built for that.


My own preferred approach: Magic is powerful. It has to be capable of stuff you can't do physically; otherwise there's little point to magic. Magic needs to be able to do crazy stuff to tell the stories we want told and to enable the sword & sorcery fantasy the game is for.

As such, I'd prefer hitting magic at where it's the most logical; magic should be slower than physical options. Spells are complex and take a long time to cast - I personally prefer for spells to generally have 1 round+ casting times enabling non-casters to do stuff while casters are casting.

Casters still get their stuff off and have their worldshattering power but with a very clear weakness (that can be mitigated, mind). A clear advantage for learning how to use a sword, if you will. Makes caster/warrior hybrids more sensible too. Right now they're mostly Dead Magic Zone specials. Of course, this doesn't remove the need to change a bunch of spells, but makes the basic paradigm more fair.

[Naomi Li]

To clarify: This isn't meant as an "equalizer" by any means, but merely a method for non-magic methods to fight spells so that spellcasters are always contested when targeting them and can't no-sell anything.

I'm unsure why allowing mage armour/shield and similar spells to be sundered would be of limited effect, given that I am fairly sure most arcane casters rely heavily on said spells for AC boosts, their CMD tends to suck, and the hardness/hp values I provided should be able to be taken down by a single fighter's attack(s) of the round fairly often.

I do thank you all for your assistance. As a potential revising of the SR formula, perhaps "10 + size bonus + charisma modifier + armour/shield bonuses to AC", with the rationale that with how magic permeates everything in these worlds and spells cannot shoot through solid materials in general, placing material between the spellcaster and the target should make it harder for them to affect the target.

Anyway, even if the "best" spells don't need to penetrate spell resistance (a claim I find somewhat dubious for Pathfinder, but do not have the evidence to contest), it does decrease the viability of some of the scariest spells around, like charm person.

[eggynack]

I'm unsure why allowing mage armour/shield and similar spells to be sundered would be of limited effect, given that I am fairly sure most arcane casters rely heavily on said spells for AC boosts, their CMD tends to suck, and the hardness/hp values I provided should be able to be taken down by a single fighter's attack(s) of the round fairly often.
It's just a really tiny facet of magic. For example, mirror image appears to still be very much a thing in PF. You could just use that. Additionally, sundering is a possibly even tinier facet of combat maneuvers, because it doesn't do much, and destroys the loot.

Anyway, even if the "best" spells don't need to penetrate spell resistance (a claim I find somewhat dubious for Pathfinder, but do not have the evidence to contest), it does decrease the viability of some of the scariest spells around, like charm person.
I'm not as sure about PF. I thought we were talking about 3.5. You should probably note that. Anyways, summons are still a thing, and I presume that buff spells are as well. That alone covers a lot of ground. It looks like walls still exist, and those couldn't care less about SR, and neither does grease, or silent image, or snowball. I can't do this quite as well as I'd be able to for 3.5, but there's a good list of things.

Edit: Also, on sundering, if your opponent spends all of their time trying to sunder your shield and mage armor, then mission frigging accomplished.

[johnbragg]

In a lot of ways, magic in D&D universes flat out beats physical actions without any contest, unless the squishy caster is hit first. What changes would you implement to make physical activities able to stand up to magic directly?


The logic is that high-level mundanes don't use magic, they just ARE magic. Magic is the gravity of a fantasy RPG world, and high-level characters have enough gravity to bend the world around them. So martials can create or destroy magical effects through using their weapon as a focus (or their ki for a monk), rogues could do it through sneak attacks or through concentrating on skills.

1. Similar to your sundering-force-effects idea:
Allow high-level mundanes to Dispel MAgic with a weapon attack. Use weapon damage as Caster Level for the Dispel check, with an arbitrary roll of 10. Could be a feat, could be a class feature.

2. Definitely something like Iron Heart Surge.

But these are small tweaks, most of the job would have to be done by

3. Limiting the Tier 1 casters.

[Firechanter]

Some things you can do without a lot of micromanaging effort:

* make Casters more MAD: split their casting stat in two. Max spell level and bonus spells are determined by Int for Arcane and Wis for Divine casters; Save DCs are set by Cha for both. This applies to prepared and spontaneous classes alike.
(It doesn't really affect casters who avoid Save spells altogether, though)

* increase casting times. Standard Action becomes Full-Round Action; Summons require 1 Full Round for casting and another Full Round until the Summon arrives.

--

If you want to take care of problematic spells, the usual suspects are:

- Celerity line (broken broken broken!)
- Contingency* (esp. Craft Contingent Spell)
- Gate
- Mordenkainen's Disjunction
- Polymorph line (including Alter Self and Shapechange)
- Shivering Touch
- True Resurrection
- Wraithstrike

Contingency is huge, but can be manageable if you stick to the standard rule that you can only have a single Contingency at a time and Celerity is out. Things get really broken when you circumvent that restriction with CCS and enter the game with two hundred contingencies.

Instead of banning the Polymorphs outright (which was my original plan), I have decided to nerf them _hard_ and make them mostly fluff spells. Basically, you just assume a desired _form_ but do not gain its abilities. If you want Ex and Su effects, you need to get these through other means.
That way, the Dragon can still infiltrate the king's court in the shape of a demihuman, but if the Wizard wants to play Dragon he has to cast some other spells on top of it.

Note that I use the Simple Druid variant from UA (AC bonus instead of Wildshape), so it's not like that class would now have a monopoly on this field.

[TripleD]

We keep talking about adjusting rules, tweaking this or that, but we haven't gotten to the heart of the problem:

1. Mundanes must follow the rules of physics
2. Magics must not follow the rules of physics

Unless you tackle that there will always be a massive gaping canyon between wizards and everyone else.

In "The Illiad" the heroes of Greek myth throw boulders at each other like it ain't no thing. Monkey King can dance around dragons with nothing more than an extending staff.

At level 20 a fighter should not be very good at swinging an axe through trees. She should be very good at swinging an axe through mountains.

[Eldariel]

We keep talking about adjusting rules, tweaking this or that, but we haven't gotten to the heart of the problem:

1. Mundanes must follow the rules of physics
2. Magics must not follow the rules of physics

Unless you tackle that there will always be a massive gaping canyon between wizards and everyone else.

In "The Illiad" the heroes of Greek myth throw boulders at each other like it ain't no thing. Monkey King can dance around dragons with nothing more than an extending staff.

At level 20 a fighter should not be very good at swinging an axe through trees. She should be very good at swinging an axe through mountains.

Iono man, a level 20 Commoner with any skill optimized is already breaking the laws a physics easily enough. Hell, the very fact that he has as much HP as he does breaks the laws of physics; he can survive acid submersion and such. Hell, level 1 Barbarian can break world records in running; level 20 speed-stacked character could probably break the speed of sound without magic.

Doesn't change the fact that magic does it better and easier. If you want to bring a semblance of balance, you don't need non-magical classes to be able to do things casters can; you just need non-magical classes to have a job at which they're better enough than casters to warrant their inclusion. It's not a problem that they lack the strategic power of contact other plane and teleport; that's something you can't fix without giving them magic (generally magic items and rituals will suffice).

The problem is that mundanes lack all the casters' inherent strategic options and casters do the mundanes' job (killing things, taking hits, scouting, hiding, acting in dead magic, disrupting casting, breaking things, inspiring masses, etc.) better or equally well to the mundanes. This disparity didn't really exist to nearly the same degree in the older editions of D&D; it's mostly because of 3.0's massive caster buffs across the board, and nerfs to mundanes while at it.

[Stux]

A house rule I am using in my current campaign has all standard action spells not come in to effect until the beginning of the caster's next turn, and they have to concentrate until then. It is sort of like making all standard action spells 1 round spells, except the caster still gets their move action on the turn they begin casting.

The upshot of this that enemies of the caster get 1 round to try and disrupt most spells in the game. This gives mundane classes some very important jobs: 1) protecting the party casters when they are casting important spells lest they lose them and 2) targeting enemy casters to stop their spells getting through.

[Duke of Urrel]

As a DM, maybe you can try experimenting with planar traits that make magic less reliable – even on the Material Plane. Maybe on certain blessed or cursed days of the calendar, certain cleric spells suffer a chance of failure. Maybe when certain storms are brewing, arcane magic goes wild (according to the "wild magic trait" described in the Manual of the Planes). Maybe in certain underground regions, the earth absorbs all magic and makes all spells harder to cast. If this sounds too exotic for the Material Plane, you can always let extraplanar spaces intrude upon the Material Plane by way of subtle vortices that PCs may pass through without noticing. (You could rule that deific magic is not detectable by ordinary divinations.)

To be fair, every one of these exceptional conditions should have an in-game explanation, they should be well-known to everybody with the right kind of Knowledge skill, and they should apply to the magic of NPCs as well as PCs.

[Zeromage1]

For my campaign I creating a magic poor world and one idea I think I might go with is that all spell effects durations are cut in half due to the world being cut off from magic. So a spell lasting 4 rounds now lasts 2. Down to a minimum of 1. Also magic is illegal in my world so PCs who cast spells in the middle of a town or city risk becoming outlaws.

[Blackhawk748]

this is a caster nerf i've seen that seems to work, make them use Bard Progression, that means at lvl 17 or so you are now JUST starting to worry about disintigrate and other such spells

[Ghost Nappa]

Have you tried setting the mundanes to Wumbo?

3.5 runs exclusively on Linear Warriors and Quadratic Wizards.
4E runs exclusively on "Planet of Hats" where everyone is basically the same combat-wise.
If you can't fix them, maybe try 5th edition?

[Zeromage1]

this is a caster nerf i've seen that seems to work, make them use Bard Progression, that means at lvl 17 or so you are now JUST starting to worry about disintigrate and other such spells

There wouldn't be much reason to be a caster over a bard then

[Fable Wright]

There wouldn't be much reason to be a caster over a bard then

Massively increased spell options?

[Blackhawk748]

Massively increased spell options?

This is the main reason, as blasting is still the main domain of the other casters

[Incanur]

My own preferred approach: Magic is powerful. It has to be capable of stuff you can't do physically; otherwise there's little point to magic. Magic needs to be able to do crazy stuff to tell the stories we want told and to enable the sword & sorcery fantasy the game is for.

As such, I'd prefer hitting magic at where it's the most logical; magic should be slower than physical options. Spells are complex and take a long time to cast - I personally prefer for spells to generally have 1 round+ casting times enabling non-casters to do stuff while casters are casting.

Casters still get their stuff off and have their worldshattering power but with a very clear weakness (that can be mitigated, mind). A clear advantage for learning how to use a sword, if you will. Makes caster/warrior hybrids more sensible too. Right now they're mostly Dead Magic Zone specials. Of course, this doesn't remove the need to change a bunch of spells, but makes the basic paradigm more fair.

I concur with this approach, though I don't know that you could implement it without turning 3.x into something very different. It's possible to design a system in which magic is ridiculous powerful and yet casters are completely dependent on warriors for protection. In much fiction, mages who can weave awe-inspiring spells can still lose to a random goon who gets the jump on them. (I'm not necessarily recommending that you go this far. Personally, in my homebrew fantasy RPG system, casters have limited fast defenses but more powerful spells require full concentration for an extend period of time.) The matter of versatility - what the tier list measures - strikes me as harder to address. Magic can conceptually do anything. My approach here involves making skill better and not allowing spells to so easily trump skills. I recommend letting so-called mundanes (noncasters) excel melee combat, ranged combat, social situations, stealth, perception, and willpower. For core 3.5, think fighter/rogue gestalt with good Will saves. Such an arrangement fits the heroic archetype in my view. But even this may not be enough.

3.x magic in combat derives much of potency from the wonky initiative system. Logically, there shouldn't be any way to surprise somebody up close with a spell that takes 3-4 seconds to cast (a standard action), yet that's how 3.x works. Initiative order also makes buffing and combos better, because player 1 can spend 3+ seconds to buff player 2, and player two can spend their full 6 seconds under the effect of the buff. Etc. This doesn't work outside the logic of initiative order.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I did something rather extreme for one game to make caster supremacy basically a non-issue.

All classes with spell casting or manifesting are eliminated. Then we add back the adept and magewright classes, adding protection from evil and calm animals to the adept's list and charm person to the magewright's. These are the only arcane and divine caster in the world capable of casting actual spells. Artificers are out too.

Invokers such as the warlock and DFA are in. Bard, Paladin, and Ranger are available as prestige classes a la UA.

Prestige classes that grant their own casting are available, less the sublime chord, ur-priest, and any other that restore the full sorcerer/wizard, cleric, or druid spell list into play. Rainbow servant is banned.

Magic items that require spells that are not on the bard, paladin, ranger, adept, or magewright spell list are -exceedingly- rare. Basically such items are only available by commission from a mid-high level warlock or midgard dwarf. To commission an item for a warlock requires that you first research the required spells via the independent spell research rules.

Casters were still relevant but -much- less dominant.

[1pwny]

What you could do is create a feat or weapon-enhancer that lets you dispel spells from thin air. Dispelling and Dispel Burst only activate on critical hits, which always bothered me. Shouldn't there be some kind of enhancer that lets you slash right through a fireball?

[Kuulvheysoon]

(You could rule that deific magic is not detectable by ordinary divinations.)

Or as some kind of "background magic" that is everywhere (as the world was created by the gods), and since it's everywhere, specific phenomena react differently with it.

[EugeneVoid]

Test of Spite?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Test of Spite?

Definitely not. That ban list was mostly designed to eliminate rocket tag. It did -nothing- to change the disparity in power and versatility of warriors vs casters.

[Amphetryon]

I can't believe I'm the first one posting this:

Consider Legend, a d20 system based somewhat loosely in 3.5 as a direct offshoot of the Test of Spite rules. Mundanes in that system are generally considered slightly better than the magic-wielders, but neither universally nor in all situations.

[icefractal]

The thing is, you don't (or at least I don't) want just "physical" stuff to beat magic, you want "badass non-magic people who are PC/BBEG material" to beat magic.

It's cool when the wall of force holds back the huge column of falling rock and magma, and it's cool when you fireball the horde of zombies and they all blast apart into ash and bone fragments. What's not cool is when Conan gets trivialized by basic spells. He should be able to smash through that - but because he's badass, not "because he has hands and a sword".

So - personally I'd go for a solution where you give every class that needs it abilities to deal with magic, and those abilities should take level into account. Aragorn should be able to see through the attempt at fogging his mind and kick the mage in the nuts instead, or at least have a good chance of doing so. Bob the Peasant Militia Dude should totally get Jedi Mind Tricked, and consider himself lucky if he even remembers later that it happened.

[Particle_Man]

One trick I heard of is that every even-numbered character level cannot be one that advances a caster level. Or manifester level. Etc.

[Pickford]

You could always consider what things mechanically interfere with spellcasting, and the availability of those things within 3.5.

Simply put, there's not nearly enough dispelling and grappling by NPCs. Going up against a spellcaster, those are the going to be the most effective options short of massive damage/readied actions to interrupt spellcasting.

Dispelling to remove magical defenses, Grappling to interfere with somatic/material/focus components (and verbal if a pin is achieved).

Appropriate use of skills and/or items would also be in order: i.e. hide/move silently + potions of invisibility to make targeting difficult during the approach.

eggynack:

Edit: Also, on sundering, if your opponent spends all of their time trying to sunder your shield and mage armor, then mission frigging accomplished.

One cannot sunder armor...however one can sunder a spellbook, wand, staff, spell component pouch, or bag of holding. (Although it would proabably be more efficacious to simply disarm these items, as they would be somewhat more valuable as loot).


To summarize: It is my feeling the things that represent existential threats to casters typically don't threaten mundane classes (e.g. grappling/silence/dispelling), and so they are not often considered threats at all, and handwaved away in theory-class, whereas in practice these would be showstoppers.

[eggynack]

eggynack:
One cannot sunder armor...however one can sunder a spellbook, wand, staff, spell component pouch, or bag of holding. (Although it would proabably be more efficacious to simply disarm these items, as they would be somewhat more valuable as loot).
Those things aren't made of force, and are thus irrelevant to the rule at hand. It also still feels like a bit of a waste of time to sunder that stuff in a combat scenario. I mean, sure, it's annoying to the wizard, but you're not having a direct and immediate impact on the combat situation. Seems unwise to stand in attacking range of a wizard, break his staff, and then wait for retribution. You should probably just kill him. Y'know, with a sword.


To summarize: It is my feeling the things that represent existential threats to casters typically don't threaten mundane classes (e.g. grappling/silence/dispelling), and so they are not often considered threats at all, and handwaved away in theory-class, whereas in practice these would be showstoppers.
As here, so too there. Dispelling is definitely not hand waved as useless, because it's universally powerful, but grappling has defenses, and requires close range. Silence is also reasonably reasonable. I feel a lot like these things are evaluated as they are. Things that are actually good against wizards, meaning not grappling or sundering, are highly considered for that fact. I mean, if you've built your whole character just to stop wizards, that's probably a bad move in the long run, but if you can pull something off incidentally, that's a positive way to go.

[Curmudgeon]

* make Casters more MAD: split their casting stat in two. Max spell level and bonus spells are determined by Int for Arcane and Wis for Divine casters; Save DCs are set by Cha for both. This applies to prepared and spontaneous classes alike.
(It doesn't really affect casters who avoid Save spells altogether, though)

* increase casting times. Standard Action becomes Full-Round Action; Summons require 1 Full Round for casting and another Full Round until the Summon arrives.
These are good suggestions. I do the following:
If your primary spellcasting stat is INT, your CHA determines bonus spells and WIS determines spell DCs.
If your primary spellcasting stat is CHA, your WIS determines bonus spells and INT determines spell DCs.
If your primary spellcasting stat is WIS, your INT determines bonus spells and CHA determines spell DCs.

Casting times for all spells are increased as follows:

immediate, swift, free, or move action -> standard action
standard action -> 1 full-round action
full-round action -> 2 rounds
1 round -> 3 rounds
longer than 1 round -> double the stated time, but 1 minute minimum
Effects which alter the casting time plug in the results from the above table instead, so for instance Quicken Spell would make a full-round action spell take a standard action to cast.

Also, all spells are +1 level higher than listed, and there are no level 0 spell slots. You need the Epic feat Improved Spell Capacity to gain the ability to cast 10th level spells like Shapechange.

[Half-Wizard]

The problem with spellcasting is simply the sheer variety of things they can do, and their efficiency at doing it. If you want to balance things out, non-casters and spellcasters should have about equal breadth and depth of capability when they are at equal level. However, I'm uncomfortable with gimping spellcasters to do that since characters are supposed to be epic by the time they reach level 20. Level 20 casters are epic, with the ability to undo death, to create new planes of existence, to instantly travel between locations and planes of existence, to stop time or reverse gravity, to commune with the gods and bring storms holy vengeance upon their enemies. Level 20 fighters and rogues? Eh, they're good, but not epic.

I'd recommend giving the non-spellcasting classes tons of bonus feats, ability point bonuses, and skill points, with quadratic growth in all of these. It would look something like this:

Non-caster level bonuses:

Bonus feat
-
Bonus feat
-
Bonus feat
Skill points ×2, bonus feat, skill caps doubled
Skill points ×2, bonus feat, bonus ability boost
Skill points ×2, bonus feat
Skill points ×2, bonus feat, bonus ability boost
Skill points ×2, bonus feat, epic level non-caster feats unlocked
Skill points ×4, bonus feat ×2, bonus ability boost
Skill points ×4, bonus feat ×2, bonus ability boost, skill caps doubled again
Skill points ×4, bonus feat ×2, bonus ability boost
Skill points ×4, bonus feat ×2, bonus ability boost
Skill points ×4, bonus feat ×2, bonus ability boost
Skill points ×8, bonus feat ×4, bonus ability boost ×2, skill caps doubled again
Skill points ×8, bonus feat ×4, bonus ability boost ×2
Skill points ×8, bonus feat ×4, bonus ability boost ×2
Skill points ×8, bonus feat ×4, bonus ability boost ×2
Skill points ×8, bonus feat ×4, bonus ability boost ×2


So, potentially, a 20th level fighter could have strength of 40 without any magical assistance if he started off with 18 strength, and this level of strength would allow him to carry a fully-loaded wagon as a light load. His maximum ranks for skills would also be multiplied by eight, so he could potentially have 160 ranks in a class skill, or 80 ranks in a cross-class skill. He could easily have enough ranks in climb or jump to get over a wall of force, and could even climb around on the bottom of such a wall at full speed.

If he just used the bonus feats from level 11-20, he could also take the energy resistance feat quite a few times so he could potentially have a resistance of 60 to all elements (with no resistance to sonic, and 120 resistance to fire instead), and then add on damage resistance of 24/- with his normal bonus feats and fighter bonus feats from level 11-20. This would allow him to shrug off fireballs, waltz through a storm of vengeance with a smile on his face, and even take a swim in an active volcano. This is epic.

A rogue could have enough ranks in escape artist to find gaps in a wall of force and pass through it as if it wasn't there. The rogue could sense motive well enough to essentially read minds as with detect thoughts, but offer no saves. A rogue with a craft skill could easily achieve a +200 bonus on the check allowing real-time crafting. Delving a dungeon and need a grappling hook? With raw materials and tools, the rogue could actually smith a grappling hook in just 12 rounds. The rogue could see through illusions as if they weren't there, appraise well enough to detect magical items, and balance on clouds. This is epic.

[Pickford]

Those things aren't made of force, and are thus irrelevant to the rule at hand. It also still feels like a bit of a waste of time to sunder that stuff in a combat scenario. I mean, sure, it's annoying to the wizard, but you're not having a direct and immediate impact on the combat situation. Seems unwise to stand in attacking range of a wizard, break his staff, and then wait for retribution. You should probably just kill him. Y'know, with a sword.


As here, so too there. Dispelling is definitely not hand waved as useless, because it's universally powerful, but grappling has defenses, and requires close range. Silence is also reasonably reasonable. I feel a lot like these things are evaluated as they are. Things that are actually good against wizards, meaning not grappling or sundering, are highly considered for that fact. I mean, if you've built your whole character just to stop wizards, that's probably a bad move in the long run, but if you can pull something off incidentally, that's a positive way to go.

Given that the opposed grapple check keys off BAB, the Wizard is going to be at a deficit vs any full/average BAB character. (Likely by a significant enough margin that success is impossible).

Yes, there is a defense. But it's also measured in rounds, and it requires the character to have the specific spell, failing that, there's not a lot one can do if already being grappled.

[Kraken]

Grappling seems like a waste of time. If you're that close, you should simply be impaling them, given how easy it is to maximize melee damage, which is a fair approach against the most powerful classes in the game.

[Pickford]

Grappling seems like a waste of time. If you're that close, you should simply be impaling them, given how easy it is to maximize melee damage, which is a fair approach against the most powerful classes in the game.

Impaling them may or may not be fatal. Grappling has the distinct advantage of shutting down their offense.

[Kraken]

Still a waste of time, and not just against wizards. An anklet of translocation is a meager 1400 GP, and gets anyone out of a grapple unless they're also silenced. Grappling in general is just a terrible strategy, there's just too many ways to escape or counter.

[Pickford]

Still a waste of time, and not just against wizards. An anklet of translocation is a meager 1400 GP, and gets anyone out of a grapple unless they're also silenced. Grappling in general is just a terrible strategy, there's just too many ways to escape or counter.

A grappler would be able to silence the wizard at their option in a pin....so that's a distinct possibility.

Also, the grappler could disarm them of that trinket (or any other obviously magical device).

[eggynack]

Given that the opposed grapple check keys off BAB, the Wizard is going to be at a deficit vs any full/average BAB character. (Likely by a significant enough margin that success is impossible).

Yes, there is a defense. But it's also measured in rounds, and it requires the character to have the specific spell, failing that, there's not a lot one can do if already being grappled.
Well, you could have heart of water, and that's what I'd usually go with. The actual effect has a duration measured in rounds, but you can have the ability to have the effect up most of the day. You can also have dimension door, or abrupt jaunt, or a ring of freedom of movement, or benign transposition with a melee guy or nearby friendly chump of your choice (Ryu would recommend a mouse, or possibly a rat).

The possibility and number of defenses goes up sharply if you include non-wizards in the caster parade. A tactic that works on casters is great, but one that only works on wizards is quite a bit more narrow in application. Druids, for example, have standard freedom of movement in addition to heart of water, a medium BAB and larger than medium forms for basic grapple success, and even the ability to cast shuffle at the beginning of combat for the native ability to teleport away. You could also go with my new favorite anti-grapple plan ever, which is using exalted wild shape to become a blink dog, and dimension dooring away as a free action. You can even add a mantle of the beast to do that all as a swift, and still have time to cast a spell. Finally, Clerics are possibly the most limited on the list, but they too have the ability to contend with grappling in grappling terms, with potentially high strength, BAB, and size. They also have freedom of movement, obviously.

Of course, this analysis fails to consider what is possibly the best of all defenses against grappling. That is, not being grappled. Maybe our noble caster is flying at a stable distance from your fighter, safe from his less capable flight method. Perhaps he is travelling invisibly, or he's behind a wall, or even a wall of summoned meat. Grappling requires that you stand within grappling range of a caster, and that is often more difficult than anything. Grappling a caster is a plan with a lot of holes.

[Kraken]

A grappler would be able to silence the wizard at their option in a pin....so that's a distinct possibility.

Also, the grappler could disarm them of that trinket (or any other obviously magical device).

Unless you find a way to do those things on the same round that you initiate grapple, those options aren't relevant. Are there even rules for silencing someone 'manually?'

[Pickford]

Unless you find a way to do those things on the same round that you initiate grapple, those options aren't relevant. Are there even rules for silencing someone 'manually?'

By the time an anklet of translocation is easily affordable a character with 2 attacks could grapple + pin in 1 round. Given that it's a tchotchke and not a weapon or armor, that's probably low on the list of options.

Eggynack: Benign transposition would provoke an AoO, and they could then pin the wizard, muffling them, which would ruin the spell.

Ryu would be incorrect in that the mouse/rat must be a willing participant, so if it's just some bystander and not their familiar, the Wizard is outta luck.

The Druid may have Freedom of Movement, but they probably don't have it up. Exalted is only an option for the good, most Druids are just plain old neutral, so it's kind of the rare duck this will work on.

As always of course, discretion in tactics is meaningful.

[eggynack]

Eggynack: Benign transposition would provoke an AoO, and they could then pin the wizard, muffling them, which would ruin the spell.
No, it wouldn't, actually. As long as you cast defensively, the movement part is completely AoO'less, so this plan works out.

Ryu would be incorrect in that the mouse/rat must be a willing participant, so if it's just some bystander and not their familiar, the Wizard is outta luck.
I'll have you know that the rat loves our noble wizard very much. The wizard gives him food and everything. But anyways, there's still a pile of other plans, including variants on this exact plan, so I'd say that the wizard will be fine.


The Druid may have Freedom of Movement, but they probably don't have it up.
Yeah, I hate 10 minutes/level durations. I'ma just stick with heart of water.

Exalted is only an option for the good, most Druids are just plain old neutral, so it's kind of the rare duck this will work on.
I'd say that neutral good is actually the best alignment on a druid. In addition to exalted wild shape, which is frigging amazing, you also get exalted companion, which allows access to a VoP'd up AC, and you get to cast luminous armor on yourself, which works great. You lose access to some evil and corrupt spells, but those are worse than what you gain from going good. It's a rather unintuitive result, I'll admit, owing to the druid's alignment based spell access, but I believe it to be the correct one.


As always of course, discretion in tactics is meaningful.
It's just a decent amount of resources you're investing, and the scope of potential targets is extremely limited. Casters, who would be your best target, are aware they're your best target, and thus are able to use their many many defenses against grappling. Monsters are usually going to be even better than you at grappling, owing to their large size. Moreover, at the end of the day, when you actually have the enemy in your clutches, you're still just trading actions on a one for one basis. In other words, you've become a living SoL, and as a charger, you could instead just become a living SoD. It's more consistent, and has a more powerful result, so I don't see the advantage that grappling brings to the table.

Edit: Also, you get access to the third best druid PrC: lion of talisid. I'd call the good or exalted focused druid one of the major druidic archetypes. I mean, consider whether you'd rather have exalted wild shape, for the blink dog, unicorn, and celestial Ex ability forms for all, or frozen wild shape, for yet another beat stick. I'd take the crazy infinite teleportation, and free enhance wild shape, but maybe that's just me.

[Eldariel]

These are good suggestions. I do the following:
If your primary spellcasting stat is INT, your CHA determines bonus spells and WIS determines spell DCs.
If your primary spellcasting stat is CHA, your WIS determines bonus spells and INT determines spell DCs.
If your primary spellcasting stat is WIS, your INT determines bonus spells and CHA determines spell DCs.

Casting times for all spells are increased as follows:

immediate, swift, free, or move action -> standard action
standard action -> 1 full-round action
full-round action -> 2 rounds
1 round -> 3 rounds
longer than 1 round -> double the stated time, but 1 minute minimum
Effects which alter the casting time plug in the results from the above table instead, so for instance Quicken Spell would make a full-round action spell take a standard action to cast.

I surmise some spells that are immediate/free/swift/standard action do need to remain that way, though? I mean, Featherfall is pretty useless otherwise for instance. Most Touch-range damage spells too; they simply aren't very usable at full-round action (not that they were to start with).

I personally also like touching on defensive casting. Though PF did a pretty good job of actually making it difficult enough to matter, 3.5 Defensive Casting is way too strong. 5' steps also assist casters disproportionally, far as casting stuff without any checks while a guy is at your grill with a sword goes.

[Kraken]

By the time an anklet of translocation is easily affordable a character with 2 attacks could grapple + pin in 1 round. Given that it's a tchotchke and not a weapon or armor, that's probably low on the list of options.


In order to do that, you need to be able to full attack in the first place. The idea of reaching an optimization point where you can full attack after closing in on an opponent in the same round, but aren't able to then one shot the opponent with a full attack, is nonsensical. Melee damage just scales too easily. Especially if the target is something squishy like a caster or monk.

Further, your argument about it being an unreasonable expenditure doesn't even make sense. WBL for level 6 is 13k, and tactical teleportation is one of the most useful battlefield abilities there is, well worth the 1400GP even at level 5 when your WBL is 9k. Hell, for a grappler it'd be great because it's another way you can close on an opponent and full attack in the same round. Those that are interested in weapons and armor will be less likely to want to want to make the purchase, but grappling is likely also a bad idea against those more WBL strained types of characters anyway, because they'll have the BAB and strength score to compete with your grapple checks, especially your second being made at a -5 penalty. And if you don't make both, the entire thing is a waste of time, because next turn they just get out as a swift action and then proceed to full attack you or whatever.

[Blightedmarsh]

What about dispensing with all vatican spell-casting.

There are plenty of alternate spell casting systems that are a lot better balanced in 3.5 already.

Invocations
Incarnum
Manefesting
Binding.

Either you ban vatican casting classes; they have to get a non casting AFC or you grant them access to one of the other casting systems.

EG:
Druid with totemist progression.
Invoker cleric
Psionic bard

[Zanos]

What about dispensing with all vatican spell-casting.
Either you ban vatican casting classes; they have to get a non casting AFC or you grant them access to one of the other casting systems.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/kae_dash/7321658/10343/10343_original.jpg

Couldn't resist.

Also, manifesting is only very slightly less broken then arcane casters. Mundanes still don't really stand a chance against them.

[Mutazoia]

A couple of small changes I've proposed a few times that would help nerf casters:


Disallow Meta-magic feats
Get rid of "Defensive Casting"
Use casting times
require material components for spells listing such
no automatic spell gain on level up. (Require spell research in a town or city to gain new spells)

[Blightedmarsh]

Manifesting also has the advantage of being a lot smaller and easier to manage than arcane casting.

Each manefester only gets a fist full of powers from a fairly limited list. As a DM it will be easier to keep a lid on.

[Andion Isurand]

Recently, I've begun allowing any class level that doesn't advance some type of spellcasting/manifesting... to gestalt with another class level that doesn't advance spellcasting (so long as the character qualifies for those class levels).

In doing so, I've turned to using fractional BAB and fractional saves... where saves gain +0.50 or +0.33 for a given level, depending on whether it would get a good or poor progression (good saves get +2.50 only at a character's first level).

Of course, prestige versions of base classes that feature a partial spellcasting/manifesting progression... such as rangers, paladins, bards... would see more use in this instance, as the levels they gain that don't progress spellcasting, could gestalt with another class level without spellcasting progression.

Here's a game I'm trying to set up where this is being attempted
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316450

[Pickford]

In order to do that, you need to be able to full attack in the first place. The idea of reaching an optimization point where you can full attack after closing in on an opponent in the same round, but aren't able to then one shot the opponent with a full attack, is nonsensical. Melee damage just scales too easily. Especially if the target is something squishy like a caster or monk.

Further, your argument about it being an unreasonable expenditure doesn't even make sense. WBL for level 6 is 13k, and tactical teleportation is one of the most useful battlefield abilities there is, well worth the 1400GP even at level 5 when your WBL is 9k. Hell, for a grappler it'd be great because it's another way you can close on an opponent and full attack in the same round. Those that are interested in weapons and armor will be less likely to want to want to make the purchase, but grappling is likely also a bad idea against those more WBL strained types of characters anyway, because they'll have the BAB and strength score to compete with your grapple checks, especially your second being made at a -5 penalty. And if you don't make both, the entire thing is a waste of time, because next turn they just get out as a swift action and then proceed to full attack you or whatever.

Staves, Wands, Scrolls and the like are expensive, and they easily take priority over the anklet. Moving 10' twice a day is great, sort of, but it takes a back seat those things.

Full attack, pounce is a thing. Why can't the grappler do exactly what the grapllee wants to so? Offensively teleport next to someone and full attack to tackle/pin them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Staves, Wands, Scrolls and the like are expensive, and they easily take priority over the anklet. Moving 10' twice a day is great, sort of, but it takes a back seat those things.Staves; yes. Wands and scrolls; not so much. I also question your priority here. The ability to escape from the grasp of a creature that wants to crush you with grappling is something that will be needed a fair number of times throughout an adventurer's career. Having an anklet of translocation so that you don't have to take up a spell prepared, spell known, or class feature (abrupt jaunt) is just good sense.

[eggynack]

Staves; yes. Wands and scrolls; not so much. I also question your priority here. The ability to escape from the grasp of a creature that wants to crush you with grappling is something that will be needed a fair number of times throughout an adventurer's career. Having an anklet of translocation so that you don't have to take up a spell prepared, spell known, or class feature (abrupt jaunt) is just good sense.
That's not even mentioning the fact that anklets of translocation have other applications, apart from just escaping a grapple. Swift action teleportation is a crazy useful thing on just about any character, and with anklets you're getting it at a bargain. The only reason you might not want one of these things on a caster is because you're already basically getting that ability in another manner. For example, abrupt jaunt has utility in this situation, as well as in other situations, so it might be worth getting abrupt jaunt as a replacement for this, instead of the other way around. Similarly, the theoretical high level exalted druid might skip it because he's essentially getting swift action teleportation already, and in a better way. It still might be worth having the anklets as backup, because they're so frigging cheap, but if you're already getting this ability in another way, the argument about whether you're able to escape a grapple is rather irrelevant.

[Kraken]

Staves, Wands, Scrolls and the like are expensive, and they easily take priority over the anklet. Moving 10' twice a day is great, sort of, but it takes a back seat those things.

Full attack, pounce is a thing. Why can't the grappler do exactly what the grapllee wants to so? Offensively teleport next to someone and full attack to tackle/pin them.

Others have already covered the absurdity of your statement about anklets.

Grappling is a much less effective strategy than simply murdering someone. For starters, you can murder just about anything, whereas the number of things grappling will be useful against is comparatively very limited. You can do it if you want, just like you can make dual wielded daggers your primary attack as a fighter if you want, that just doesn't mean it's a good idea. We're talking about level 6, and at that level a caster with a con mod of 3 has 37 HP, or 43 if they have a con mod of 4 - and this is being very charitable there's a very good chance their HP is even lower. Apparently the smart thing for monks is to have a similar amount of HP by dumping con (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15106588&postcount=28). You mentioned pounce specifically, and charging is the easiest way to optimize melee to hit and damage, so you should only be needing to hit once with your multiple attacks to obliterate such squishy targets. Why would someone go to the trouble of wasting precious feats on improved unarmed strike (pre req) and improved grapple when they could be grabbing much more versatile and useful feats like improved trip (available to barbarians without needing to take combat expertise) knockdown, devotion feats, shock trooper, leap attack, martial study/stance, and so forth? Even a lower optimization character without pounce using sudden leap or travel devotion to close on a target and make a meager full attack should be able to kill those HP totals in one round. If any of those things don't kill the opponent, it's likely you've still severely wounded them. Whereas if you fail to pin on the outset, you've wasted your time. Grappling isn't never useful, but it's a niche tactic at best, which you seem to be romanticizing as being dramatically more effective than it ever is in practice.

[eggynack]

Grappling isn't never useful, but it's a niche tactic at best, which you seem to be romanticizing as being dramatically more effective than it ever is in practice.
Indeed. It's mostly a druid thing, I think. They're basically the only class in the game that simultaneously bypasses every issue that exists with grappling, the biggest one being that grappling of any kind usually requires some sort of investment, while any given druid can grapple in their issue bypassing way at any given moment. You're always six seconds away from a giant crocodile.

[Eldariel]

Indeed. It's mostly a druid thing, I think. They're basically the only class in the game that simultaneously bypasses every issue that exists with grappling, the biggest one being that grappling of any kind usually requires some sort of investment, while any given druid can grapple in their issue bypassing way at any given moment. You're always six seconds away from a giant crocodile.

Iono, anyone with Polymorph/Metamorphosis to appropriate forms tends to do it pretty well too. So caster-thingy, as a nice bonus to certain forms.

[eggynack]

Iono, anyone with Polymorph/Metamorphosis to appropriate forms tends to do it pretty well too. So caster-thingy, as a nice bonus to certain forms.
I mostly consider grappling from a summoning perspective, rather than from a wild shape perspective. The biggest problem I have with grappling, after all of the many many other problems, is that you're effectively trading actions with your enemy on a one for one basis. I mean, sure, maybe he's dying while you do that, but it's not the way I like to spend my time. However, if you summon a creature, that's one of your actions for all of the actions of your opponent. Wild shape (and polymorph) gets past a number of grappling's problems, like the high risk of a failed grapple (improved grab bumps that down a lot), or the fact that monsters tend to have a size and strength advantage (now you are a monster). Summoning also solves those problems, while simultaneously having a low action cost, and keeping you out of harm's way. Also, animal growth usually only works on summoned creatures or the animal companion, unless you're cheesing out with aspect of the wolf. That spell is amazing for grappling.

[Komatik]

{{scrubbed}}

[Eldariel]

I mostly consider grappling from a summoning perspective, rather than from a wild shape perspective. The biggest problem I have with grappling, after all of the many many other problems, is that you're effectively trading actions with your enemy on a one for one basis. I mean, sure, maybe he's dying while you do that, but it's not the way I like to spend my time. However, if you summon a creature, that's one of your actions for all of the actions of your opponent. Wild shape (and polymorph) gets past a number of grappling's problems, like the high risk of a failed grapple (improved grab bumps that down a lot), or the fact that monsters tend to have a size and strength advantage (now you are a monster). Summoning also solves those problems, while simultaneously having a low action cost, and keeping you out of harm's way. Also, animal growth usually only works on summoned creatures or the animal companion, unless you're cheesing out with aspect of the wolf. That spell is amazing for grappling.

Oh, certainly. Still, there are times when personal Grappling can be worthwhile (you're ahead on the action economy but enemy's actions are still relevantly strong alongside strong saves), where you get it as a free strongish option from Wildshape/Polymorph. Level 7 Remorhaz is pretty strong yo.

[Pickford]

In order to do that, you need to be able to full attack in the first place. The idea of reaching an optimization point where you can full attack after closing in on an opponent in the same round, but aren't able to then one shot the opponent with a full attack, is nonsensical. Melee damage just scales too easily. Especially if the target is something squishy like a caster or monk.

Further, your argument about it being an unreasonable expenditure doesn't even make sense. WBL for level 6 is 13k, and tactical teleportation is one of the most useful battlefield abilities there is, well worth the 1400GP even at level 5 when your WBL is 9k. Hell, for a grappler it'd be great because it's another way you can close on an opponent and full attack in the same round. Those that are interested in weapons and armor will be less likely to want to want to make the purchase, but grappling is likely also a bad idea against those more WBL strained types of characters anyway, because they'll have the BAB and strength score to compete with your grapple checks, especially your second being made at a -5 penalty. And if you don't make both, the entire thing is a waste of time, because next turn they just get out as a swift action and then proceed to full attack you or whatever.

Well that's the point, if they're muzzled they can't do the verbal command, so they can't just get out. Nor much of anything else, since we're talking a Wizard here, so their str and bab are essentially nothing.

Sample wizard at 6th level: str 8 (-2), BAB of +3 (total of +1)
Sample fighter at 6th level: str 20 (+5), BAB of +6, improved grapple bonus of +4 (total of +15)

So, a +15 vs +1 and then +10 vs +1. There's almost no chance at all of the Wizard not being pinned. (3.75% chance of evading the first grapple; 13.75% on not being pinned).

[eggynack]

Oh, certainly. Still, there are times when personal Grappling can be worthwhile (you're ahead on the action economy but enemy's actions are still relevantly strong alongside strong saves), where you get it as a free strongish option from Wildshape/Polymorph. Level 7 Remorhaz is pretty strong yo.
Seems potentially true. Realistically, as long as you're not paying any serious character resources for the privilege of grappling, you can't go too far off course. These plans barely even consume any daily preparation resources, so there's really no cost accorded to the pursuit. Still, even on the personal grappling end of things, druids are likely superior. You could literally pick a random and reasonably leveled druid off the street, with nigh-on random build choices, and they'd be pretty great at grappling. Toss a mantle of the wild into the mix, and they can go from bat to full on grappling within a single round. Grappling makes for an interesting tactic, if an often situational one, and casters are pretty good at pulling it off in general. I mean, it's not like druids have a monopoly on summons either.

Well that's the point, if they're muzzled they can't do the verbal command, so they can't just get out. Nor much of anything else, since we're talking a Wizard here, so their str and bab are essentially nothing.

Sample wizard at 6th level: str 8 (-2), BAB of +3 (total of +1)
Sample fighter at 6th level: str 20 (+5), BAB of +6, improved grapple bonus of +4 (total of +15)

So, a +15 vs +1 and then +10 vs +1. There's almost no chance at all of the Wizard not being pinned. (3.75% chance of evading the first grapple; 13.75% on not being pinned).
8 strength is a -1 mod. Also, a good number of my listed defenses still work, and you're still only talking wizards. This is just a bad plan.

[Kraken]

Well that's the point, if they're muzzled they can't do the verbal command, so they can't just get out. Nor much of anything else, since we're talking a Wizard here, so their str and bab are essentially nothing.

Sample wizard at 6th level: str 8 (-2), BAB of +3 (total of +1)
Sample fighter at 6th level: str 20 (+5), BAB of +6, improved grapple bonus of +4 (total of +15)

So, a +15 vs +1 and then +10 vs +1. There's almost no chance at all of the Wizard not being pinned. (3.75% chance of evading the first grapple; 13.75% on not being pinned).

Nobody is disagreeing that wizards suck at grappling (edit: though for what it's worth, in addition to the error eggy pointed out, you're also not accounting for the fact that the pin attempt is made at -5 BAB, which drops success to around 80%). What you don't seem to realize is that nobody cares. Impaling will work 99.75% of the time (assuming you get close enough, don't roll a pair of 1s, and so forth). And against way more types of foes than grappling could ever hope to. I remain completely unconvinced that grappling is a wise investment of two feats, arguably the most precious character resource there is, when you could be improving any number of other superior strategies.

[Kelb_Panthera]

fighter nonsense
And where did your level 6 fighter get pounce? Or if not pounce then what other form of swift movement? The only thing that comes to mind is to take martial study twice; to get sudden leap. Even then you have to be within 30 feet (typically) for this to work.

[Kraken]

I never mentioned using a fighter anywhere I don't think? Realistically I'd multiclass, but a pure level 6 fighter could use travel devotion. Ideally you'd be a dragonborn with warblade and barbarian levels, so you could have sudden leap, the twisted charge skill trick, pounce, and dragonborn diving as options.

I agree in principle with the argument you're raising though, another reason to attack rather than grapple in a scenario where you are able to close on an opponent.

Edit: also, Pickford's grapple odds fail to account for a natural 1 failing their melee touch attack, so those odds are actually 75%~. Assuming the target's touch AC is lower than 14.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorry, wrong quote. That was supposed to be addressed to pickford.

[Kraken]

No worries, point worth raising regardless.

[nedz]

I'll just drop this one out of the clear blue sky.

Casters suffer a -1 penalty to will saves for each CL they possess.
This can be fluffed as magic causes mental instability.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'll just drop this one out of the clear blue sky.

Casters suffer a -1 penalty to will saves for each CL they possess.
This can be fluffed as magic causes mental instability.

That would leave casters basically unable to -ever- make a will save.

[Karoht]

Something I'm planning on doing in an upcoming campaign.
Take a full caster. Lets say Sorcerer for easy understanding.
They gain their spell slots as normal. No change there.
They gain their spells known as a Bard. Exact same table. Except with the Sorcerer spell list. That's right, cap things at 6th level casting, plus it delays the rate at which they earn new tools. But wait? What about those 7th, 8th, and 9th level slots? They exist for metamagic purposes. It makes metamagic more accessable, especially in the lower levels.
Now apply this to all the other full-casters.
SLA's are not affected (IE-Summon monster summon on a summoner is not capped in any way), except for Limited Wish and Wish.

So where does that leave the lesser progressed casters? Paladins and Inquisitors now share one spell list and spell progression. However, they both cap at 5, along with the rest of the 6 spell level progression classes. Rangers and any other 4 spell level progression classes are not affected in any way.

Now, the dividend on all of this is, around level 15, all the rest of the normal spellcasting would likely be unlockable, by specific actions in game. AKA-A quest, central to the story. Under this condition is the only reason I would ever go ahead with this premise.
That's about as far as I got. I didn't start parsing out any numbers or making any sample characters (IE-Sorceror X who is Level Y has access to Spell Level Z and the following spells known [insert list]) to see if there were any oddities in the level progression and the like.

[nedz]

That would leave casters basically unable to -ever- make a will save.

It would spice up the Enchantment school though. Actually I suspect that this would just lead to a new kind of rocket tag, only using softer spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It would spice up the Enchantment school though. Actually I suspect that this would just lead to a new kind of rocket tag, only using softer spells.

Protection from evil says enchantment is still a weak school and once mindblank comes online it's a straight-up non-issue. Nevermind oozes, undead, mindless constructs, vermin, and plants still hanging around.

[TuggyNE]

I'll just drop this one out of the clear blue sky.

Casters suffer a -1 penalty to will saves for each CL they possess.
This can be fluffed as magic causes mental instability.

Clerics? Bards? Rangers? Paladins?

This seems likely to lead to a lot of serious fluff problems very fast, and does not have entirely pleasant balance implications, especially since mundanes have a lot of trouble forcing any kind of interesting Will save on anyone.

[nedz]

Yeah, failed idea. It would be interesting to make high CL risky somehow though ?

[eggynack]

Yeah, failed idea. It would be interesting to make high CL risky somehow though ?
It's definitely a flavorful idea, but it could use some hugs in the execution. I rather like the idea of wizards being consumed by the force of ancient magics. It seems kinda odd to do that by hitting their good save though. I'd probably make it a class feature, rather than a magic feature though. That way, you wouldn't catch weaklings in the blast radius, and you'd be able to work out the fluff on individual classes. I don't know how I'd do it in particular though.

Edit: Also, your idea as is wouldn't really balance things. Numbers are numbers, and casters transcend numbers.

[Stux]

And where did your level 6 fighter get pounce?

In PF anyone can get pounce with a 1 level dip. That same dip can gets you a bite attack too. And some casting. And Summon Monster as a SLA. And a 40ft Speed. And +2 natural armor. And 6 extra HP (ish).

Yeah, Synthesist Summoner... talk about front loaded.

[LordBiscuit]

I think it's impossible to address magical supermacy without a complete overhaul of the spell list. And really baliencing the spells is all that really needs to happen. There isn't a sense of consistancy for what a wizard should be able to do at any given level and at times it seems rather haphazard. Of course spellcasters should be able to do things that none others can't, but it needs to be measured in a more regulated manner.

The other idea is that wizard should be flat out scarpped as a class, in favour for specialised classes. I mean, they did that to various flavours of fighters in the form of Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin and Fighter, It only makes sense that the wizard should be cut up in the same sense as was examplified in later books, like Warmage, begiler and so fourth. So that they can do one thing exceptionally well, but thats their big trick. This of course, would require magic classes to be redesigned as there are some concepts that simply don't work as their own class.


The other way is to give all classes a super natural aspect that only they can use. The example is the Paladin and Celric. Personally I feel that the current paladin is the worst form of spellcaster that you could have. One that gains abilities that are insangificant and often quite late in it's career in an early level campiagn, when really it need a tutored list that appeals to it alone that are extremely magic effecent in exchange for it's narrowminded approch. Being able to cast only 4 levels is fine as long as those options are sangificant and potent to the class, to be able to cast these right at level 1/4.

Being able to gain 4+ attack and +8 to damage modifers as a swift action for one turn would be one such ability that only the paladin could use for a full attack, but to great effect for a level 1 ability for a paladin. Being able to cast a personal haste at level 2 Make up for your lack of consistant modifier by having potent burst effects of valor. Being able to break mind control, and eventurally being able to transform into a devine being for short periods of intense holy vengance. These are just a few examples that came to mind that would give the class a Niche of a holy crusaide.

Of course this would mean amending the basic class to take into account of these swift actions, in which case they should. The core classes were designed at a time when swift actions was not a thing.

This would lead to the fighter as it stands sucking, but then the fighter itself is a poor concept that needs a fundimental rejig to have a good gimmic, beyond featwhoring. Personally the fighter has no role in this game other then to be an arrupt feat boost as it stands. So it needs to change so that it has a machanic to interact. I believe that all classes should be dragged up to be given the options in that to deal with some situations.


In combination with tighter spell controls that would make the game more enjoyable, while letting the spellcaster do fun things because after all thats why they exist. To buff, to explode and to do the supernatural, just the system wasn't well designed that lead to the discreptancys.

I would even go as far to say that Spellcasters should drop the vactican system and use the Psionics system in which you spend "mana" to cast spells. That way you can access new spells without necessarily creating a "entire new teir of magic" that is completely independant from the last. If all classes used that as a manditory system*, then the game as a whole would be able to regegulate magic with more ease. Thus all classes would have a resource pool that could be tutored towards their role. It would be the only reason i could see ambigous classes like the wizard existing at all as a singlar class.


Anything short of a complete overhaul the vactican magic system or/and class's is the equlient of slapping a bandaid on a festering wound. Half assed measures will only create additional inconsistancies and additional "picky" rules that are designed to prod at "that" class, rather then solve the fundimental problem.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In PF anyone can get pounce with a 1 level dip. That same dip can gets you a bite attack too. And some casting. And Summon Monster as a SLA. And a 40ft Speed. And +2 natural armor. And 6 extra HP (ish).

Yeah, Synthesist Summoner... talk about front loaded.

Barbarian can get you pounce in 3.5. Doesn't change the fact that Picky said fighter 6.

[Stux]

Barbarian can get you pounce in 3.5. Doesn't change the fact that Picky said fighter 6.

Oh of course, the comment was just a little aside.

[illyahr]

I had an interesting thought: What if casting any spell, no matter the class, did, say, 1d4+spell level non-lethal damage to the caster due to fatigue? Casters being as squishy as they are, they would have to ration their spells to avoid putting themselves into jeopardy from self-knockout.

Thoughts?

[AMFV]

I had an interesting thought: What if casting any spell, no matter the class, did, say, 1d4+spell level non-lethal damage to the caster due to fatigue? Casters being as squishy as they are, they would have to ration their spells to avoid putting themselves into jeopardy from self-knockout.

Thoughts?

You'd have a whole lot of Necropolitan wizards then...

[illyahr]

You'd have a whole lot of Necropolitan wizards then...

True, but necropolitan is broken anyway. Undead traits for effectively no change in ECL? On the other hand, a necropolitan would have to be very careful about how he/she got his/her spells as they are now obviously undead. It wouldn't take much to turn people against them.

[AMFV]

True, but necropolitan is broken anyway. Undead traits for effectively no change in ECL? On the other hand, a necropolitan would have to be very careful about how he/she got his/her spells as they are now obviously undead. It wouldn't take much to turn people against them.

Well you're part of the superior caste, and you can't be harmed by your own spells like everybody else. That gives you a pretty big advantage. Additionally there are many other ways to become immune to nonlethal damage.

Warforged Wizard for example.

[illyahr]

Well you're part of the superior caste, and you can't be harmed by your own spells like everybody else. That gives you a pretty big advantage. Additionally there are many other ways to become immune to nonlethal damage.

Warforged Wizard for example.

Ah, I keep forgetting about Warforged. :smalltongue:

But what about the basic premise? Instead of nerfing the caster or the class, install a penalty for casting. I initially thought non-lethal damage so it wouldn't hurt partial casters as much since they are a little less squishy overall. It might make the caster rethink randomly throwing out spells if there was a cost for it.

[AMFV]

Ah, I keep forgetting about Warforged. :smalltongue:

But what about the basic premise? Instead of nerfing the caster or the class, install a penalty for casting. I initially thought non-lethal damage so it wouldn't hurt partial casters as much since they are a little less squishy overall. It might make the caster rethink randomly throwing out spells if there was a cost for it.

You could always do the wild surge thing. Just replicate Psychic Enervation with the same chances and stuff.

[illyahr]

You could always do the wild surge thing. Just replicate Psychic Enervation with the same chances and stuff.

How about this: After each spell, Will DC (15+spell level) or stunned for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level (minimum 1)?

[Zanos]

How about this: After each spell, Will DC (15+spell level) or stunned for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level (minimum 1)?
I'm going to reiterate what I've said in a lot of threads about this:

There is no easy fix. Anything that seems easy may reduce the Wizards power, but will make it frustrating as all hell to play. If you spend 3/4 of your combat rounds stunned, chances are you aren't having a lot of fun.(And DC 16 will save makes level 1 wizards cry).

Wizards are powerful because of their spells. If you want to balance them without making being one miserable you need to change their spells. You don't need some finicky mechanic, bizzare spell casting costs, SAN damage, or a chance to shoot your brain out of your nose. Just fix the spells.

Ideally to balanced wizards you just remove or rewrite all the spells you think will cause issues in your campaign, and everyone who wants to play a melee character has ToB levels or is a Gish.

[illyahr]

ok, how about 10 + twice spell level? dc 12 is still good for a lvl 1 wizard, but dc 28 for a level 9 spell requires some thought for risk. :smallbiggrin:

The point isn't to rewrite the whole system, it's just to make a patch that everyone can work with. Besides, you don't think messing with the spells will make a wizard sad anyway?

[Amphetryon]

ok, how about 10 + twice spell level? dc 12 is still good for a lvl 1 wizard, but dc 28 for a level 9 spell requires some thought for risk. :smallbiggrin:

The point isn't to rewrite the whole system, it's just to make a patch that everyone can work with. Besides, you don't think messing with the spells will make a wizard sad anyway?

In almost every instance I've seen, tinkering with spells just eliminates the likelihood that Wizards et al will take bad spells, and forces them to focus almost exclusively on the most powerful (and problematic) spells instead. That's fairly close to the opposite of a 'fix' from my perspective.

[illyahr]

In almost every instance I've seen, tinkering with spells just eliminates the likelihood that Wizards et al will take bad spells, and forces them to focus almost exclusively on the most powerful (and problematic) spells instead. That's fairly close to the opposite of a 'fix' from my perspective.

Exactly. Thats why, instead of adjusting every single spell that the PC tries to break, I suggested we just adjust casting in general.

[Zanos]

I disagree. Tinkering with spellcasting itself will mean that Wizards will only pick spells with the optimal effect since the cast to cost them is higher than just a spellslot.

[illyahr]

I disagree. Tinkering with spellcasting itself will mean that Wizards will only pick spells with the optimal effect since the cast to cost them is higher than just a spellslot.

That's the idea. The caster will have to balance powerful spells against the risk of casting them. Yes, the caster could throw out a really powerful and/or disruptive spell, but, if he fails his save, will the spell have been enough to keep him out of danger unti the effect wears off? Maybe he/she would decide to stick to lower-level spells until he/she is sure that the higher-level ones would end the fight.

The caster could specialize in boosting Will in order to avoid the drawbacks (and thus not using the feats to break the system) or maximize their output (and run the risk of breaking their own glass cannon).

[Pickford]

And where did your level 6 fighter get pounce? Or if not pounce then what other form of swift movement? The only thing that comes to mind is to take martial study twice; to get sudden leap. Even then you have to be within 30 feet (typically) for this to work.

He didn't, he used the teleporting trinket (swift action) to be in grapple range, then full attacked.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How did you find yourself under the mistaken impression that feats matter at all to spellcasters? Maybe they matter -a little- to clerics but even then you only need one or two.

The problem really does lie with a handful of obscenely powerful spells.

In particular; you need to tweak or eliminate just about everything in the polymorph subschool, the calling subschool, the celerity spells, and a few specific spells such as shivering touch.

Most of the spells out there aren't too bad but the few that do exist are real game wreckers.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He didn't, he used the teleporting trinket (swift action) to be in grapple range, then full attacked.

You realize that the anklets of translocation only transport the wearer 10 feet. It's a strange circumstance that gets you within 10 feet before battle is joined.

[Pickford]

You realize that the anklets of translocation only transport the wearer 10 feet. It's a strange circumstance that gets you within 10 feet before battle is joined.

So you're saying there's a chance.

[Zanos]

That's the idea. The caster will have to balance powerful spells against the risk of casting them. Yes, the caster could throw out a really powerful and/or disruptive spell, but, if he fails his save, will the spell have been enough to keep him out of danger unti the effect wears off? Maybe he/she would decide to stick to lower-level spells until he/she is sure that the higher-level ones would end the fight.

The caster could specialize in boosting Will in order to avoid the drawbacks (and thus not using the feats to break the system) or maximize their output (and run the risk of breaking their own glass cannon).
I'm not talking about higher level spells. I'm talking about the best spells for the level.

With such a system, you will not ever see a competent caster prepare a fireball, or a lightning bolt, or spells for his buddies. Casting fireball every round is not overepowered, and it's not really a fix.

[illyahr]

I'm not talking about higher level spells. I'm talking about the best spells for the level.

With such a system, you will not ever see a competent caster prepare a fireball, or a lightning bolt, or spells for his buddies. Casting fireball every round is not overepowered, and it's not really a fix.

I didn't say it was a perfect idea, but it is functional. In this fashion, casters will still be able to spam lower-level spells relatively easy. It'd only be their highest-level spells that might cause them issue. A lvl 15 Wizard can cast a Fireball or Lightning Bold (dc 16 by my system) for 10d6 damage fairly consistently. He might have trouble with a level 6 spell (DC 22) however.