Free Trip AND Free Grapple

[Hanuman]

If a monster has a bite attack that incurs a free trip (no touch attack no AoO no recourse if failed) and a free grapple that procs on-hit (no touch attack no AoO), how do you resolve that?

Do you have the monster slam into the opponent, knock to the ground (Y/N) then teeth stay on their arm (Y/N)?

If they are on the ground are they more at-risk to the followup grapple attempt or does that CMB/CMD not care either way due to not needing the melee touch attack in either case?

[Kelb_Panthera]

If a monster has a bite attack that incurs a free trip (no touch attack no AoO no recourse if failed) and a free grapple that procs on-hit (no touch attack no AoO), how do you resolve that?

Do you have the monster slam into the opponent, knock to the ground (Y/N) then teeth stay on their arm (Y/N)?

Y&Y

I've seen my cats do that entirely too many times to think that gets resolved any other way. Chomp, thump, rake rake rake.

[TuggyNE]

Tripping and grappling aren't mutually exclusive, so sure.

[Crake]

I'd say you'd be likewise prone while grappling with a prone target though.

[Necroticplague]

Yes, this works both logically and by the rules. The rules say "attack, then do these things", so an attack can trigger both. There is a precedence for such actions explicitly occurring with the "flying leap" ability of the Fleshraker (charges, trips, grapples all in one attack). On more logical level, this is easy to envision several ways:any kind of grab-and-push,tackle, pounce,or some throws.

[Thurbane]

Sounds like a UFC move. :smallbiggrin:

[chaos_redefined]

I'd say you'd be likewise prone while grappling with a prone target though.

Depends on the creature... A cat-like or wolf-like creature could knock them down, then put a paw on each limb, staying upright himself.

[Necroticplague]

Depends on the creature... A cat-like or wolf-like creature could knock them down, then put a paw on each limb, staying upright himself.

Even sticking with two humanoid creatures doing so, assuming the other person was flat on the ground, you'd only need to kneel down and bend over to grapple, not lie down as well. Yes, it would be harder to defend yourself, but that is why you lose dex to AC during grapple (thus why grapplers looking to live long should invest in the heaviest armor they are proficient in, using special materials to go heavier).

[Hanuman]

That is a good point =]

Thanks!

[Psyren]

If they are on the ground are they more at-risk to the followup grapple attempt or does that CMB/CMD not care either way due to not needing the melee touch attack in either case?

Prone characters take a dex penalty, which means that yes, they would be more vulnerable to follow-up grapple checks as their CMD would be lower. They'd also take a negative to any Escape Artist checks to wriggle free.

[Callin]

This sparked something for me. Lion/Wolf Totem Barb 2/ Warblade x
with the feats Knockdown and all Prereqs for Bear Fang Style (may need aptitude weapon if you dont believe Warblade does it)

Charge in, Beat em down, Attack again for knocking them down, Attack with offhand, Grapple, Attack again for successful grapple. Then Finish out your attacks.

Sounds Fun.

[Keneth]

Even sticking with two humanoid creatures doing so, assuming the other person was flat on the ground, you'd only need to kneel down and bend over to grapple, not lie down as well.

I can take down an opponent and pin them while still standing up and capable of defending myself against another attacker. All that in a couple of seconds. I find it amusing that superpowered fantasy heroes can't do this. :smallamused:

I'm actually currently working on a way to combine different maneuvers to remedy just that. Should give mundanes a nice boost.

[Hanuman]

I can take down an opponent and pin them while still standing up and capable of defending myself against another attacker. All that in a couple of seconds. I find it amusing that superpowered fantasy heroes can't do this. :smallamused:

I'm actually currently working on a way to combine different maneuvers to remedy just that. Should give mundanes a nice boost.
An old adage, DnD combat rules are the distillation of 40 years of table-bound nerds arguing.

The truth is IRL you have single digits HP, the rules are for cinematics.

[OldTrees1]

I can take down an opponent and pin them while still standing up and capable of defending myself against another attacker. All that in a couple of seconds. I find it amusing that superpowered fantasy heroes can't do this. :smallamused:

I'm actually currently working on a way to combine different maneuvers to remedy just that. Should give mundanes a nice boost.

Knockback, Knock-down, Improved Grab/Bear Fang Style = 3 on hit manuevers (Bull Rush, Trip and Grapple)

What would that look like?

[Keneth]

The truth is IRL you have single digits HP

The truth is, HP is an abstraction and doesn't necessarily represent how many times you can get stabbed in your kidney. :smalltongue:

[Hanuman]

The truth is, HP is an abstraction and doesn't necessarily represent how many times you can get stabbed in your kidney. :smalltongue:
Certainly true, and you could make the same argument for combat maneuvers.
I'd check out Draken's Evolutionist for reference datapoints on adding free combat maneuvers to regular attacks.

[Keneth]

Certainly true, and you could make the same argument for combat maneuvers.

I wish they'd abstract grappling some more without dumbing it down to something banal. :smallbiggrin: