Jump and Tumble to reduce fall damage

[Skevvix]

I am familiar with how these features work mechanically, however the order in which they are rolled came into question. So my question is, in what order do you have them resolve?

The situation that brought this into question was for the Fortress of the Yuan Ti when on the first approach to the fort you have to jump down a 20ft hill and over a 10ft wide river at the same time. To me, the logical progression is jump check to reduce the first 10 ft of the jump, then the jump check to clear the river, then the tumble to reduce the last 10 ft.

Doesn't that seem like the logical progression?

[Greenish]

I'd probably have the Jump check to jump and the Jump check to land be one, to cut down the rolling.

That said, I don't see how it matters which order you roll them in.

[SiuiS]

It does seem logical, though I personally would do clearing the river first – failing to clear the river means you're falling a lot farther.

However, they're additive. It doesn't matter whether you do 2+3 or 3+2, you'll end up with 5. :smallsmile:

[Duke of Urrel]

I agree with everything everybody has said. I would add only that if you have at least one rank of Tumble skill (which requires training), then there's the option of making a Tumble check in place of a Jump check to soften your fall on the far side of the river (hopefully). In this case, you have to make two skill checks: first a Jump check to determine whether you clear the river, and then a Tumble check to determine whether you reduce the damage you take from the 20-foot drop. Of course, you would take this option only if your Tumble check is more likely to succeed than your Jump check.

[Greenish]

Of course, you would take this option only if your Tumble check is more likely to succeed than your Jump check.It's a 20' fall, so obviously you'd use both (if you have Tumble trained).

[KillianHawkeye]

Obviously you make the Jump check(s) when you jump, and the Tumble check when you hit the ground.

[Duke of Urrel]

It's a 20' fall, so obviously you'd use both (if you have Tumble trained).

Is this a rule?

I have always understood that if you can complete a task with either one of two different skills, you always use the skill that is more likely to succeed. You don't give yourself two chances to succeed by making two skill checks.

I imagine that different DMs manage this differently – but should they? Is there a rule that explicitly allows you to make two skill checks if you have two skills that you can use for the same purpose?

[Grayson01]

I think logically it would go Jump Check to Jump the Down and accross the river, and to see if you reduce the damage one Check as it is all the same action, then the tumble when you hit the ground.

I say it's all one jump check beacuse it's all part of the same jump. When your leaving your feat all the physical aspects of the Streatch-shortening Cycle and then landing mechanics would all be part of the original jump check. you would just have to beat all of the DC's for each Say you roll a result of 23 The DC for (and these are all just random numbers) jumping down safely 10 FT is 15 you beat that, the DC for clearing a 10 gap is 15 (I would give a bonus to this cause of jumping down so DC 10) then the tumple check at the bottom seprate roll.

[Greenish]

Is this a rule?

I have always understood that if you can complete a task with either one of two different skills, you always use the skill that is more likely to succeed. You don't give yourself two chances to succeed by making two skill checks.

I imagine that different DMs manage this differently – but should they? Is there a rule that explicitly allows you to make two skill checks if you have two skills that you can use for the same purpose?The way I see it, the Jump check is to jump in such a way as to not hurt yourself, while the Tumble check is to land in such a way as to not hurt yourself (that's why to get the Jump check, you have to be intentionally jumping, whilst you can tumble even if you fall by accident). Two separate tasks, two separate skills.

It makes sense to me that someone who's good at jumping and tumbling can safely jump down from a greater height than someone who is good at only one or the other.


If skilled characters being able to jump down from 20' without hurting themselves has ever broken the game, well, I haven't heard of it.

[Skevvix]

I'd probably have the Jump check to jump and the Jump check to land be one, to cut down the rolling.

That said, I don't see how it matters which order you roll them in.

My DM ruled the jump check to reduce and jump to clear were separate rolls, after I had rolled, and then that clearing the river was the primary action. It only really mattered due to the fact I had already leapt, and I thought it made sense then that they would be rolled like I said in the OP, he did not, and the rogue nearly drowned.

[Duke of Urrel]

The way I see it, the Jump check is to jump in such a way as to not hurt yourself, while the Tumble check is to land in such a way as to not hurt yourself (that's why to get the Jump check, you have to be intentionally jumping, whilst you can tumble even if you fall by accident). Two separate tasks, two separate skills.

It makes sense to me that someone who's good at jumping and tumbling can safely jump down from a greater height than someone who is good at only one or the other.


If skilled characters being able to jump down from 20' without hurting themselves has ever broken the game, well, I haven't heard of it.

What you say makes sense. However, here's how I see the problem.

Jumping deliberately always offers you at least one benefit, even if your Jump check fails. According to the SRD's description of falling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling):

"If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage."

Then the SRD goes on to say the following:

"A DC 15 Jump check or DC 15 Tumble check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage."

This text doesn't prove that I'm right or that you're wrong, but it does make plain (as the SRD's description of Jump skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) does not) that jumping deliberately always offers an advantage over falling accidentally, even if your Jump check fails. Therefore, it's not necessary to add another advantage if you also have Tumble skill and use that in place of Jump skill to soften your landing. By my interpretation, one skill check alone effectively shortens the fall if it succeeds. Offering a second skill check after the first one fails would make it too easy.

I come to this way of thinking by way of another example – in a very small set of cases, to be sure; it doesn't happen often that two different skills may be applied to one and the same task. You can use either Spellcraft skill or Use Magic Device skill to decipher a magic scroll. If you have both skills and you have me as a DM, I require you to choose between the two skills when you decipher a magic scroll; you cannot use both. Of course, under these conditions, it will probably make more sense to use Spellcraft, because this is quicker (requiring only one full-round action rather than ten) and more likely to succeed (because the Spellcraft DC is five lower than the Use Magic Device DC would be). As a DM, I am unconvinced that if you take one round and fail to decipher a magic scroll with Spellcraft, you should be able to take another minute and try Use Magic Device skill instead. Using a weaker skill should not help you succeed after using a stronger skill has failed.

Moreover, when developing skills, there should always be a trade-off between excellence and versatility. Investing all your skill points in one skill rather than dividing them into two skills enhances your excellence in that one skill, but the trade-off is that you lose versatility. Conversely, investing in two skills rather than one enhances your versatility, but reduces your excellence in both skills, unless there is a synergy bonus involved.

Actually, come to think of it, there is a synergy bonus involved between Jump and Tumble skill. Having five ranks in either one of these skills adds a +2 synergy bonus when you use the other skill, and if you have five ranks in both skills, you add a synergy bonus of +4 whenever you use either one.

In conclusion, as a miserly DM, I believe developing your ability to take a soft fall without magic requires a serious investment in both Jump and Tumble skill. Letting PCs make two skill checks instead of one whenever they jump deliberately down from a height, just because they've invested in one rank of Tumble skill, seems too generous.

You may find all of this unconvincing, but I just wanted to explain where I'm coming from.

[Lightlawbliss]

If someone put enough ranks in tumble and jump for both to be of significant, and both can apply, I then see no real reason why they could roll a jump check for the initial landing, and then tumble to roll and dissipate more energy safely.

also, I would have no problem with both spellcraft and UMD being used to identify a scroll completely independently of each other.

my $0.02

[Greenish]

My DM ruled the jump check to reduce and jump to clear were separate rolls, after I had rolled, and then that clearing the river was the primary action. It only really mattered due to the fact I had already leapt, and I thought it made sense then that they would be rolled like I said in the OP, he did not, and the rogue nearly drowned.Well, if it matters, the order that makes the most sense to me is that the Jump check to, well, jump becomes first, and the jump check to land comes when you land.


Offering a second skill check after the first one fails would make it too easy.Ah, but this isn't two skill checks for the same thing. You'd use both to avoid damage from 10' of falling (from 20' height), so if you succeeded in both, you'd take no damage, if you failed one, you'd take 1d6 damage, and if you failed both, you'd take 2d6.

I'm ambivalent towards whether you could use both of the skills to remove the same damage from jumping down mere 10' (in effect getting two shots at it), but I don't think that'd be that problematic either.

I come to this way of thinking by way of another example – in a very small set of cases, to be sure; it doesn't happen often that two different skills may be applied to one and the same task. You can use either Spellcraft skill or Use Magic Device skill to decipher a magic scroll. If you have both skills and you have me as a DM, I require you to choose between the two skills when you decipher a magic scroll; you cannot use both. Of course, under these conditions, it will probably make more sense to use Spellcraft, because this is quicker (requiring only one full-round action rather than ten) and more likely to succeed (because the Spellcraft DC is five lower than the Use Magic Device DC would be).That's because Spellcraft specifically limits you to one use per day, and UMD specifically says that "[t]his usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill" (and, well, even then, I'm not sure you couldn't try UMD anyway).

[Lanaya]

I don't see a problem with using multiple different skill checks on the same thing. For instance, if a PC stumbles upon an evil cult worshipping a particularly notorious lichfiend who had reigned down destruction upon the land in the past, I'd give them a knowledge (religion) check to ID this particularly nasty undead creature, a knowledge (arcana) check to recognise an especially potent and well-known spellcaster, a knowledge (the planes) check to see that it's an infamous outsider who has visited the Material Plane multiple times in the past, and a knowledge (history) check to know who this historically important figure is. If they did well enough on any of those four checks they'd know all about the lichfiend, or if they did okay on all four they might get pieces of information relevant to each knowledge skill which, when combined, allow them to piece together the whole story.

[TuggyNE]

My DM ruled the jump check to reduce and jump to clear were separate rolls, after I had rolled, and then that clearing the river was the primary action. It only really mattered due to the fact I had already leapt, and I thought it made sense then that they would be rolled like I said in the OP, he did not, and the rogue nearly drowned.

The problem here is not that the DM had a different idea than you about the ordering, it's that he realized this when you were in the middle of rolling instead of clarifying up front. This is what programmers call a "breaking change": whether or not it's the right change to make, it messes things up.

[Pickford]

You can't both jump down and jump across the river with the same move action. Either you do a horizontal jump (Across) or you jump down.

If you jump across, but still fall some distance, you could use the tumble check, if you jump down you can use both the jump down check and the tumble check.

[Lightlawbliss]

You can't both jump down and jump across the river with the same move action. Either you do a horizontal jump (Across) or you jump down.

If you jump across, but still fall some distance, you could use the tumble check, if you jump down you can use both the jump down check and the tumble check.

Pickford, would you please show where the hell you get that from. That defies logic. and I don't know ANYONE who plays like that

[Greenish]

Pickford, would you please show where the hell you get that from. That defies logic. and I don't know ANYONE who plays like thatThe Jump skill rules mention High Jump, Long Jump, and Jump Down as separate uses of the skill, with no mention of you being able to combine them (presumably because the designers thought it'd be obvious).

[Pickford]

The Jump skill rules mention High Jump, Long Jump, and Jump Down as separate uses of the skill, with no mention of you being able to combine them (presumably because the designers thought it'd be obvious).

They're also entirely different activities.

There 'is' a slight overlap though:


A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance.

So, if you were trying to jump up to a ledge that's across a gap, you'd need to make a jump check capable of moving 4x the height distance (minus your vertical reach).

i.e. You're at a gap of 5' looking at a ledge 5' above your reach. To reach it, you'd need to make a jump check of 20 (for 20 feet distance) to reach the ledge by the midpoint of your jump. (assuming a 20' head start, of course), with no head start you'd be looking at a 40 DC...which is pretty rough, but also pretty amazing if you can do it.