Spell casting sneak attacker?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically the character is primarily non-lethal sneak attack based, and needs a lot of skills to stay active. Sounds a lot like a rogue right?

However my issue is that I want him to also have a few spells under his arsenal that works for stuff like sneak attacks, social dialogue, slave trading etc.

Though going far into spellcasting limits the rest of the build (Low HD, Skills, BAB etc.) but too much rogue levels barely makes me able to cast anything.

Basically I'm asking for help on the best mix/build possible for a sneak attacker who works with spells.

Main Skills: Listen, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, Search (Want to mix some tracking into the build), Diplomacy, Craft (Trap Making), Survial & Gather Info (Tracking reasons for last two).

Main Spells: Distract Assailant, Charm Person, Dominate, anything else that aids in mind-control, sneak attacks, tracking/following people or simply traping people to make them unable to move or function.

As long as it focuses on those main things while still maintaining a high sneak attack and ability to stay alive in melee I'm happy. I'd be fine with just wands too if possible, as long as the wands were relatively cheap and I didn't need to be picky for when I used them.

Note: Using stuff like Craven, Sap Adept & Sap Mastery to make sneak attack non-lethal and capable of dealing maximum damage.

[Blackhawk748]

Well i recommend Daggerspell Mage as a PrC, 9/10s spellcasting progression, some nice abilities and easy-ish entry requirements, though it does require 5 levels of arcane casting, but thats pretty much the minimum you wanted anyway

[Ravens_cry]

There's Arcane Trickster. Full Casting and Sneak Attack progression, and some nice tricks besides.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well i recommend Daggerspell Mage as a PrC, 9/10s spellcasting progression, some nice abilities and easy-ish entry requirements, though it does require 5 levels of arcane casting, but thats pretty much the minimum you wanted anyway

It does grant spell casting and sneak attack.

Though how likely do you think it would be for it work with saps instead of daggers?
Also, would it casting would dagger abilities even help much when spells are mostly sneak attack enabiling, trap setting or mind control based?

[Norin]

Maybe a nice handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240) would help you out? :smallsmile:

[Gwazi Magnum]

There's Arcane Trickster. Full Casting and Sneak Attack progression, and some nice tricks besides.

Requirements are kind of awful :/
But the class itself is pretty good.

Would it be possible to take Open-Minded lots of times to meet the requirements and then just chaos shuffle the feats out again?


Maybe a nice handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240) would help you out? :smallsmile:

Didn't know there was one for this :P
Thanks for the link :)

[Renegade Paladin]

Unseen Seer from Complete Mage. With Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) class shenanigans, you can get much higher caster level than designed for. Diviner 1/Rogue 1/Human Paragon3/Unseen Seer X gets you all the sneak-attacking goodness, sneaky magic, always-on nondetection, and more you could desire for the bargain price of only -2 caster level (increasing to character level +1 for divinations courtesy of Spell Power!). And then you use Advanced Learning to get all the good ranger spell list archery divinations and just go to town with unlimited range sneak attack. :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rogue 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 nets you 19 caster levels and 7d6 sneak attack. If Beguiler is too restrictive (though it does sound like it does everything you want), you can use Sorcerer or Wizard instead, though you might want to grab Able Learner in that case.

[Blackhawk748]

Sorry forgot daggerspell mage was mainly for offensive stuff lol though arcane infusion would be good to have as an option

[Maginomicon]

A generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) can pick up Sneak Attack (and improvements to Sneak Attack) as ACFs. I used this to great effect in my "Full-Contact Mage" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FullContactMagic) build.

[Gwazi Magnum]

All interesting, but all seem to cut down on sneak attacks or spell casting by a good amount :/

But I really should know better than to expect the best of both worlds.

However, I don't want spell casting to hit usual wizard levels. Just enough to get my job done. So are there ways to simply use them as wands without caster levels, or gain them as spell like abilities?

Main spells I want are:

-Sneak Attack Boosters
-Mind Control/Social Spells
-Trapping Spells (Summoning a cage, paralyze target, this is open to imagination)
-Tracking Spells (Those that help follow or know the location of something/someone)

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note: Group is currently trying to push the DM to allow Gestalt.
If it were to be let through what advice would you guys then have?


A generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) can pick up Sneak Attack (and improvements to Sneak Attack) as ACFs. I used this to great effect in my "Full-Contact Mage" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FullContactMagic) build.

The Generic classes I do want to try to get three dips in over time, and to be honest it's probably one of my best shots for such a build anyways. Infact almost perfect other than the limited skill points, HD and BAB.

Along with the fact that I do want to at least try to ramp up sneak attack above normal through multiple means (Seeing if I can also make it dependle without two-weapon fighting, so a hand free for spell shenagigans).

That way I can get +9d6 sneak attack damage in three levels.

[Blackhawk748]

if gestalt? Rogue X on one side Beguiler X on the other

[Maginomicon]

If advancing sneak attack is more important, a Lvl 20 Lurk gets up to +4d6+1d6+10d6 sneak attacks 20+INTmod times per day.

[TiaC]

Spellwarp sniper can be really nice, especially if you can cast sandblast.

[Grod_The_Giant]

All interesting, but all seem to cut down on sneak attacks or spell casting by a good amount :/

But I really should know better than to expect the best of both worlds.

However, I don't want spell casting to hit usual wizard levels. Just enough to get my job done. So are there ways to simply use them as wands without caster levels, or gain them as spell like abilities?
So... you want to focus on sneak attack more than on spells? You could take the last build I posted and swap the initial rogue and (spellcaster) levels to get an additional d6 of sneak attack at the end, for 8d6 SA and CL 16.

Alternately, you could go into something like Assassin or Temple Raider of Olidammara that grants independent spellcasting.

[Grayson01]

Not the best but, Spell Theif fits the bill pretty well.

And Can't Factotum work really well for this?

[Grod_The_Giant]

And Can't Factotum work really well for this?
They're not very good sneak attackers-- if you're allowed to stack Cunning Strike, it's expensive, and if you're not allowed, you're stuck with 1d6+level (thanks to Craven), at the cost of an Inspiration Point.

[Norin]

A 1 lvl swordsage dip at 9 for assassin's stance nets you +2d6 and some other fun maneuvers...
Also +1 init, and weapon focus for your chosen discipline weapons. Also a solid boost to your Ref\Will.

Could be worth looking into.

[Ravens_cry]

Requirements are kind of awful :/
But the class itself is pretty good.

Would it be possible to take Open-Minded lots of times to meet the requirements and then just chaos shuffle the feats out again?

Arcane Trickster has no feat requirements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm). I think you are thinking Arcane Archer.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Arcane Trickster has no feat requirements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm). I think you are thinking Arcane Archer.

But the skill requirements are high.

Open Minded gives 5 skill points, which if taken excessively will fill the skill point requirements and then can be chaos shuffled out I'm thinking.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Also, how well would using wands and simply having a high Use Magic Skill work?

The spells I want are fairly limited.
All I really need is

1. Cheap way to getting/making wands
2. Way to recharge wands

[Ravens_cry]

But the skill requirements are high.

Open Minded gives 5 skill points, which if taken excessively will fill the skill point requirements and then can be chaos shuffled out I'm thinking.
Eh, they aren't that high. They are skills you likely want anyway.

[Sir Chuckles]

Also, how well would using wands and simply having a high Use Magic Skill work?

The spells I want are fairly limited.
All I really need is

1. Cheap way to getting/making wands
2. Way to recharge wands

They're really not that high... Most PrC's have feat requirements or even higher requirements. I can't think of more than one that you can gain access to before lv5ish (That one being a Commoner going into Survivor).
You'll qualify for Arcane Trickster at Rogue 3/Wizard 5, and that's not using any frills, just base classes.
And with Wizard 5, you can take Craft Wand as your bonus feat, and levels in Wizard will easily cover your spells.

You can swap those Wizard levels for Beguiler levels, and take Craft Wand as your Lv9 feat, and you'd still have access to great support spells (Such a Whelm, a nonlethal spell).

[ahenobarbi]

There is a feat (I can't lookup it right now. It was in one of Faerun books IIRC) that stacks cleric and rogue levels for Sneak attack. Take it and go Rogue 1/ (cloistered) cleric 19.

[Daebu]

There is a feat (I can't lookup it right now. It was in one of Faerun books IIRC) that stacks cleric and rogue levels for Sneak attack. Take it and go Rogue 1/ (cloistered) cleric 19.

Sacred Outlaw, from Dragon 357.

OP:
1) Pick 1: Rogue/Spellthief
2) Add 1: Wizard/Sorcerer/Beguiler
3) Mix 'n match: Unseen Seer/Daggerspell Mage/Spellwarp Sniper/Arcane
Trickster

If any of those strike your fancy. Post questions for specific builds.

[Kraken]

If you want to focus on sneak attack, go Rogue1/wizard1/rogue+2/sneak attack thug fighter1/unseen seer 10. Take the practiced spellcaster feat to recover your caster level. Use unseen seer's advanced learning to pick up the spell hunter's eye from PHB2. As a swift action, it gives you bonus sneak attack dice of caster level/3. So at level 7 you'll have 4d6 sneak attack dice natively, and as a swift action you'll be able to add 2 more sneak attack dice. At level 8, hunter's eye will improve to adding 3 dice (total of 7), and at level 9, you base sneak attack dice go up again, to 5d6. So your base sneak attack dice basically keep pace with a rogue, as a swift action you can add even more dice, and you get the added bonus of being able to cast spells and use wands.

[Pluto!]

Daggerspell mage is bad.

Between its feat tax, its lost CL and its combination of bad BA, bad HD and class features that almost all require melee range, it's a good way to turn your awesome sneak attacking mage into a messy red splatter on the wall.

The {Rogue or Spellthief} 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/{Spellwarp Sniper or Arcane Trickster} 5 suggestion is bandied around a lot because it's very easy and very effective. It only loses one caster level, nothing in it requires melee range or feats that you wouldn't want anyway, and the abilities and extra spells you get along the way are all very good (Hunter's Insight, Divine Insight and Choose Destiny are all very powerful before digging into the more esoteric choices).

There are more powerful builds - usually achieved by either trading the Rogue/Spellthief for an alternate sneak attack method or swapping the filler SWS/AT levels for something absurd like Incantatrix - but this framework is a pretty reliable way of throwing big fistfuls of sneak attack dice while casting spells almost as well as a dedicated caster.

[Emperor Tippy]

Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 1/Chameleon 10

Sit in Assassins Stance for always on +3d6 sneak attack that you can spend IP to push through the roof as needed. You have all skills as class skills and only costing one point at all levels thanks to Able Learner. You can cast 9th level arcane spells. You have 3/4 BAB the whole way if your DM allows fractional BAB.

If you want less spell casting but more sneak attack then replace Chameleon with Assassin 8/ Arcane Trickster 2. That nets you +5d6 sneak attack, Hide in Plain Sight, and full Assassin spell casting. Assassin 9/ Decisive Strike Martial Monk 1 picks you up Int to AC when outside of armor and a few other quite nifty abilities. Final sneak attack would be +8d6 always on and potentially pushed to +50d6 or so if you really want to build for that.

Potentially dump Swordsage for two levels of Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk as that goes great with Factotum 8 sneak attack builds and pick up Assassin's Stance with Martial Study so that you can still get Shadowblade.

[Urpriest]

Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 1/Chameleon 10

Sit in Assassins Stance for always on +3d6 sneak attack that you can spend IP to push through the roof as needed. You have all skills as class skills and only costing one point at all levels thanks to Able Learner. You can cast 9th level arcane spells. You have 3/4 BAB the whole way if your DM allows fractional BAB.

How are you managing that?

[Emperor Tippy]

How are you managing that?

By having a brain flub thanks to being servery jet lagged (I've been in the air over 80 hours in the past 7 days) and forgetting that it only got you 6th level spells.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Just dawned on me that the topic title could be throwing people off.

I'm not looking for someone who relies on spells for damage that are stacked with sneak attacks. I'm looking for a melee sneak attacker (like a normal rogue is) but to have some spell capabilities to enhance the melee sneak attacks and such.

Bonus Question: I also need a good/easy way to enable the sneak attacks as many rounds as possible.

Plus, using the Sap feats from Pathfinder it's all going to be non-lethal damage for a slaving business so advice on making more enemies vulnerable to non-lethal damage would be most appreciated.

Double Bonus: Also good ways to control prisoners/slaves so they don't ever try fighting back or breaking free may they be kept by the players for good or sold for gold would be appreciated.


Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 1/Chameleon 10

Sit in Assassins Stance for always on +3d6 sneak attack that you can spend IP to push through the roof as needed. You have all skills as class skills and only costing one point at all levels thanks to Able Learner. You can cast 9th level arcane spells. You have 3/4 BAB the whole way if your DM allows fractional BAB.

If you want less spell casting but more sneak attack then replace Chameleon with Assassin 8/ Arcane Trickster 2. That nets you +5d6 sneak attack, Hide in Plain Sight, and full Assassin spell casting. Assassin 9/ Decisive Strike Martial Monk 1 picks you up Int to AC when outside of armor and a few other quite nifty abilities. Final sneak attack would be +8d6 always on and potentially pushed to +50d6 or so if you really want to build for that.

Potentially dump Swordsage for two levels of Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk as that goes great with Factotum 8 sneak attack builds and pick up Assassin's Stance with Martial Study so that you can still get Shadowblade.

Build sounds good, I like high sneak attack and skill points. :)

How do I get to +50d6? o.O

[Emperor Tippy]

How do I get to +50d6? o.O
Lots of Font of Inspiration. You can potentially end up with 161 additional Inspiration Points at level 20. Burn all of them on Cunning Strike on a single attack for a +170d6 or so sneak attack.

I don't recommend anywhere near that much Font of Inspiration (as it would eat all of your feats) but ending up with 50 or so IP is pretty reasonable.

[Urpriest]

Just dawned on me that the topic title could be throwing people off.

I'm not looking for someone who relies on spells for damage that are stacked with sneak attacks. I'm looking for a melee sneak attacker (like a normal rogue is) but to have some spell capabilities to enhance the melee sneak attacks and such.

Bonus Question: I also need a good/easy way to enable the sneak attacks as many rounds as possible.

Plus, using the Sap feats from Pathfinder it's all going to be non-lethal damage for a slaving business so advice on making more enemies vulnerable to non-lethal damage would be most appreciated.

Double Bonus: Also good ways to control prisoners/slaves so they don't ever try fighting back or breaking free may they be kept by the players for good or sold for gold would be appreciated.


If you're using the Sap feats from Pathfinder, can you use 3.5 material as well? It's definitely possible to make a character like this with just Pathfinder, but it's more limited.

Anyway, any of the classic sneak attack caster builds would work for the sort of character you're describing. I think only one person has mentioned Spellwarped Sniper, which is the only class that has to do with sneak attacking with spells per se.

In terms of how to get Sneak Attacks, the standard for a caster is to be invisible on a continuous basis through one spell or another, though Greater Blink is also a good Sneak Attack enabler. If you go the invisibility route (or just go with something else that grants you concealment but doesn't give your enemies concealment against you) then you can also Hide, taking a -20 penalty to hide while attacking your opponent. If you're hidden, you can't be targeted at all and your opponent has to guess which square you're in, which makes the squishier builds still viable.

The classic Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 gets around 14d6 Sneak Attack: 7d6 from classes and 7d6 or so from Persisted Hunter's Eye

[ahenobarbi]

Sacred Outlaw, from Dragon 357.


Thanks :)

So I suggest Rogue 1/ Sneak attack fighter 1 (thug fighter ?)/ Cloistered cleric 18

or

Halfling rogue 1 / cloistered cleric 19

9th level spells, full (or better) sneak attack, good skills.

EDIT: Grave strike let's you sneak attack undead. Magic domain let's you use wand to get golem strike so you can sneak attack constructs.

EDIT2: Clerics can get spells to immobilize prisoners too.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Lots of Font of Inspiration. You can potentially end up with 161 additional Inspiration Points at level 20. Burn all of them on Cunning Strike on a single attack for a +170d6 or so sneak attack.

I don't recommend anywhere near that much Font of Inspiration (as it would eat all of your feats) but ending up with 50 or so IP is pretty reasonable.

Ah I see, sounds pretty insane.
Though the 50d6 sneak attack is only once a day then?


If you're using the Sap feats from Pathfinder, can you use 3.5 material as well? It's definitely possible to make a character like this with just Pathfinder, but it's more limited.

Anyway, any of the classic sneak attack caster builds would work for the sort of character you're describing. I think only one person has mentioned Spellwarped Sniper, which is the only class that has to do with sneak attacking with spells per se.

In terms of how to get Sneak Attacks, the standard for a caster is to be invisible on a continuous basis through one spell or another, though Greater Blink is also a good Sneak Attack enabler. If you go the invisibility route (or just go with something else that grants you concealment but doesn't give your enemies concealment against you) then you can also Hide, taking a -20 penalty to hide while attacking your opponent. If you're hidden, you can't be targeted at all and your opponent has to guess which square you're in, which makes the squishier builds still viable.

The classic Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 gets around 14d6 Sneak Attack: 7d6 from classes and 7d6 or so from Persisted Hunter's Eye

It's a 3.5 campaign, but the DM has allowed us to use Pathfinder material if we want since it's so similar to 3.5


Thanks :)

So I suggest Rogue 1/ Sneak attack fighter 1 (thug fighter ?)/ Cloistered cleric 18

or

Halfling rogue 1 / cloistered cleric 19

9th level spells, full (or better) sneak attack, good skills.

EDIT: Grave strike let's you sneak attack undead. Magic domain let's you use wand to get golem strike so you can sneak attack constructs.

EDIT2: Clerics can get spells to immobilize prisoners too.

It is powerful and fits the bill :P
The only thing is I have a friend who loves being Cleric and Rogue so this is the combo he's already looking at (he wants our characters to be similliar though), so would two Cleric Sneak Attackers be that viable?