Barbarian/Monk Help?

[Legendxp]

So a member of my group is playing a barbarian 8 // chaotic monk 8. It is a variant monk that requires you to be chaotic. The problem is, he is lagging behind a bit behind others in terms of power. Are there any optimization tips I can give him to increase his playing potential? He insists on not wearing armor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Stats? Feats? Items? ACFs? How much retraining/rebuilding is allowed? How much "in the future, look into" do you want?

In terms of just looking at the gestalt, it seems like a decent enough choice, although it lacks magic. Spirit Totem (Lion) + Whirling Frenzy on the Barbarian side go well with the Monk's flurry of blows, and the strength boost from raging ought to help the MAD a fair deal.

[Blackhawk748]

Fist of the Forest will be nice for the Con Synergy, and Drunken Master should be good too.

[Uncle Pine]

Street Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) is almost always a nice addition to a barbarian (look at the bottom).
Plus, the City Brawler ACF from Dragon #349 perfectly suits a barbarian//monk character.

Anyway, a little more details would help. For example, define "lagging behind a bit": what are the party composition, the other characters' level of optimization and the general optimization level of the campaign? If there are a dungeoncrasher fighter, a well-built archer and a generalist wizard in the party those two ACFs I listed could be enough, but if your friend is hanging around with a mailman, a spell to power erudite with ur-priest levels and a rogue gish polymorphed into a 12-headed hydra with 12 +1 mouthpick daggers, you might need to throw some ubercharger tricks to "increase his playing potential" up to the party's standards.

[Legendxp]

Well, he gets hit quite often so bonus to AC would be nice. He also rolled quite poorly on his health and goes down fast in combat. I think increasing the toughness of his character will help alot. As for sources allowed, any non 3rd party. Just as long as its not incredibly cheesy, like dragonwrought kobold qualifying for epic feats, etc. Retraining is allowed upon each time they receive a feat at levels 3, 6, 9, etc. Players are allowed to retrain some skills and feats. I might let them replace class levels but I wouldn't want it to happen often.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I repeat:

Stats? Feats? Items? ACFs? How much retraining/rebuilding is allowed? How much "in the future, look into" do you want?

We can't give out specific suggestions until we know more.

[Blackhawk748]

I shall repeat my original suggestion, Fist of the Forest adds Con to AC so thats one problem gone, and Drunken Master has ways of increasing Con so more health and more HP.

[Ruethgar]

One level of shapeshift druid gets you more stats to help with the MAD and your apparent armor problem, would have to be Chaotic Neutral though. Whirling Frenzy, City Brawler, Dashing Step, Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian fits very well with monk if he isn't one already you might allow him to retrain those class options. You can pounce, don't get an AC deduction from charging, and can two weapon fight with unarmed. Martial Monk is very nice even without cheese and comes highly recommended for any monk build. As said before, Fist of the Forest meshes well, and Frostrager can help a bit with survivability and damage.

[Legendxp]

Stats? Feats? Items? ACFs? How much retraining/rebuilding is allowed? How much "in the future, look into" do you want?

I incorrectly assumed that you wanted to know which sources you could pull these from, not what the character already had. I don't currently have access to his character sheet (He left with it by accident during the last session). For items he has an 'Amulet of Mighty Fists +3' and a 'Ring of Damage Reduction 3'. I don't remember what feats he picked. We'll most likely be playing until at least level 16. Powerlevel-wise, he has to compete with;

Duskblade 8 // Cleric 8 (Inflict)

-and-

Fighter 5/ Rogue 5 // Assassin 3/ Order of the Bow 3.

Also, quick recap, what does MAD and ACF mean? I can't for the life of me remember.


I shall repeat my original suggestion, Fist of the Forest adds Con to AC so thats one problem gone, and Drunken Master has ways of increasing Con so more health and more HP.

Unfortunately the Con bonus to AC won't stack with the monk's Wis bonus to AC (They are both class features called 'AC Bonus' which grant an untyped bonus equal to an ability modifier. Untyped bonuses with the same name do not stack). I will look into Drunken Monk though.


Martial Monk is very nice even without cheese and comes highly recommended for any monk build.

Also unfortunately, if he becomes a martial monk instead of a chaotic monk he won't be able to stay a barbarian (Martial Monk requires him to be lawful, barbarian non-lawful), unless there is a lawful barbarian floating around somewhere that I don't know of.

EDIT: I'll look into your other suggestions.
EDIT(2): MAD stands for Melee Attack Damage right?

[Ruethgar]

MAD is Multiple Ability Dependency, for a monk they need Dex, Wis, and Str to do well and are thus MAD.

There is no requirement that a Martial Monk be lawful and it has no conflicting class features with the Chaos Monk. I see no reason why both cannot be taken.

[cakellene]

Isn't Martial Monk a class variant and thus not allowed if already using Chaos Monk? I remember Wild Monk said not to allow taking other monk variants if using it to prevent getting first level monk benefits twice.

[animewatcha]

Little bit of confusion here and there in regard to monk variants.

First off, first for the fist of the forest. Con to AC will stack with Wis to AC, just that they have the same armor restriction as a normal monk's bonus to ac.

First level twice thing. That is namely, taking chaos monk for two levels, then regular monk for two levels. Resulting in four monk bonus feats. Martial monk can be done.


Martial monk is a variant of monk that is based offa the bonus feat list as it's price ( as well as no knowledge skills and -1 skill point off the monk skills points per level. also gain intimidate ). One of the things about martial monk is that paizo seems to have forgotten wording in there on the fighter bonus feats. Namely, normally a fighter would have to still qualify for their bonus fighter feats. The wording of martial monk is that monks can choose fighter bonus feats whilst ignoring pre-reqs ( and depending upon interpretation, even the epic requirement for epic fighter bonus feats ). Something that would help him would be to take Perfect two-weapon fighting. Getting in as many attacks as base AND more thanks to flailing tide.




Chaotic monk. I have taken the abilities to be mainly revolving around ambush and run. Namely, they select a lone target and do the will save thing as part of a charge ( dc is 10 + class level so it is meant that you continue taking ) to cause them to be dazed. This type of dazed is extraordinary AND does not have the normal mind-affecting, enchantment etc. tag. Meaning that it can be done in an antimagic field. You even still get your charge attack ( not flailing tide since that explicitedly says full round to use, not full attack ). In the case of barb/chao-monk, the two-weapon ( assuming city brawler ) unarmed attack full bab spree. Limited to wis mod times per day. ( Maybe homebrew a feat or something to allow for 2 or 3 extra times if low wis mod ? ).

The daze condition will keep them the target from doing anything ( but no pentalty to ac ) and will last for 1 round. However, that is long enough for it to be your turn again to get in the flailing tide which adds a random number of attacks.

Displacing stance in this situation, I am taking as a defensive measure ( miss chance, not concealment ) to help with getting from point a to point b. Sucks on the standard to enter it though.

Might I suggest a redoing of stats ( this being the 4d6 drop lowest method ), rerolling of hitpoints, and perhaps sticking with normal rage?

Barb/chao-monk complement each other very well in melee combat.

Also, would you allow him to start new character ( same classes just a level behind ) only with LAs to help him out?

[Legendxp]

I'm looking at Dragon Magazine #310 right now and this is what it says;


Some monks train as soldiers rather than
as ascetic mystic warriors. These martial
artists have a greater range of combat
talents, but have less time to practice
other skills.

Gain: Fighter bonus feat list to choose
monk bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd, and 6th
level); Intimidate is class skill.
Lose: -1 skill point per level (and -4
skill points at 1st level); no knowledge
skills as class skills.
Multiclass Options: This monk can
multiclass between fighter and monk
with no penalty.

I'm not seeing anywhere that you would drop the lawful alignment restriction. If anything I believe it would fall under the "Lose" section. A chaotic monk explicitly states that you have to be of a chaotic alignment. I guess you could change your alignment after taking the levels in chaotic monk that you wanted (This still wouldn't help the barbarian alignment restriction). However, taking two different variants of the same class, while not strictly against the rules by RAW, is generally looked down upon. I'm most likely going to only let him choose one variant of the monk. Here is what it says in Unearthed Arcana;


Originally posted by Unearthed Arcana
Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject, and the DM has to make rulings based on what is appropriate for his campaign. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can’t multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards.


As for the bonus to AC stacking. I originally thought that this;


AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.

was worded like this (like the Fist of the Forest version),


AC Bonus (Ex): While unarmored, you gain a bonus to your Armor Class equal to your Wisdom bonus (if any)

Adding a bonus equal to your modifier, versus adding your actual modifier to your AC is different (Not much, but enough to matter). I was originally incorrect, if the monk's AC Bonus was worded the second way then it wouldn't stack. Since it isn't worded that way, it does actually stack. This is because the "AC Bonus" class feature of both the Monk and the Fist of the Forest both have the same name. Having it stated the second way would mean that both classes would have untyped bonuses to the same stat (AC), not allowing them to stack. The first way means that the Monk's bonus to AC is typed (Wis bonus) and the Fist of the Forest is untyped (bonus equal to Con), thus allowing them to stack. I posted a similar question regarding the Divine Grace ability from two different classes a while back and learned a bit about untyped bonuses.


EDIT: I also found this, I'm not sure if this is relevant.


A character can take more than one variant and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.

[Nightraiderx]

1. This character should have pounce through his barbarian levels.
2. His HD is d12 if his HP is THAT poor then maybe you as a DM can let him reroll for a higher avg I'd look into that.

[Legendxp]

I keep hearing people say this (Barbarian gets pounce), but all I've found was Lion Totem Barbarian and that gets "Run" at 1st level, not pounce. Could someone point me in the right direction?

[A.A.King]

You are thinking of the Lion Totem Barbarian, a variant of the Barbarian class found in UA. Pounce is gained from the Spirit Lion Totem, a ACF from Complete Champion which only trades away your fast movement

[Legendxp]

Thanks, I finally found it. Pounce is an absurd ability to get for replacing fast movement. It ups DPR tremendously for so many different builds.

[Runeclaw]

Thanks, I finally found it. Pounce is an absurd ability to get for replacing fast movement. It ups DPR tremendously for so many different builds.

On the one hand, that's true - Pounce is clearly and inarguably better than Fast Movement, and so it's an obvious trade, and by that standard a bit absurd.

But since it doesn't unbalance Barbarians (or martial characters with a Barbarian dip) with regard to other (spellcasting) classes, it's not really absurd in the bigger picture.

[Runeclaw]

Suggestion: don't roll for HP. It's crazy that a streak of bad luck could give a Barbarian with his D12 hit die lower HP than the other members of his party.

Consider getting a good reach melee weapon. It's better damage than the Monk's unarmed. Use the unarmed combat to threaten adjacent squares while using the reach and two-handed damage bonus as the primary attack.

Serpent Strike feat from ECS allows the monk to flurry with Long Spear. Pole Fighting feat from Dragon Magazine 331 allows flurry with any polearm.

[Angelalex242]

I thought untyped bonuses, like dodge bonuses, always stacked. (And really, if it were classed as anything, shouldn't a monk's AC bonus technically qualify as a dodge bonus?)

[Nightraiderx]

Thanks, I finally found it. Pounce is an absurd ability to get for replacing fast movement. It ups DPR tremendously for so many different builds.

There are ways for you as the DM to mitigate it if you think it's going to push him ahead. If he is using just his unarmed strikes, I dont see what the issue will be, if he is shock trooping away and you feel it's too much.
1. difficult terrain
2. martial study: setting sun counter manuever
3. hold the line feat that grants the person charged on an AoO
4. MIC boots that deal double damage then setting against a charge.
5. Tactical feat elusive target will negate power attack bonuses for the target of your dodge.
6. Magic.

[Jgosse]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ascetic_Savage_%283.5e_Feat%29

it is home brew but it is comparable to swift hunter.

[Person_Man]

Thanks, I finally found it. Pounce is an absurd ability to get for replacing fast movement. It ups DPR tremendously for so many different builds.

You say that as if Pounce and free movement are somehow difficult to get (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).


Anywho, since you're already using Dragon Magazine, is homebrew allowed? There's like a thousand Barbarian and a million Monk fixes floating around the boards.

[animewatcha]

big quotey stuff



Dragon mag 310 was made at close to beginning of 3.5. To my understanding, no 3.5 classes ( excluding 3.0 ) had the 'can take levels as monk freely' clause thinge, stacking classes with monk, etc. at that time from official sources anyway ( I could be wrong ). Thus, alignment crap would have a normal run.
Chaos monk is in, IIRC, drag mag 335.

When it comes to variants like the dragon mag ones or other ones from say UA. You can gain the class features if you can pay the price ( 'lose category' ) for them and meet pre-reqs. Like you can be a ( other variants in 310 ) Holy Raging monk, but not a Holy Hunter monk.

Since chaos monks gain the bonus feats normal for a monk, he can take these variants. However, a wildshape monk does not since he doesn't gain monk bonus feats ( IIRC ).

Chaos monk has a 'neiner fine print' that if you take a level of chaos monk, you cannot take a level of normal monk. This fine print doesn't exist for builds that you may have read that have Cleric 1/ Cloistered cleric X / X for more domains.

When it comes to stacking abilities. Main reason for fist of forest to be stackable is that it is con to ac versus wis to ac. If you look up the ninja base class entry for 3.5e, you will see a mention that they get wis to ac too as well. This is including a blurb about wis to ac not being being twice. Now with a few feats ( kung fu genius, carmendine monk, ascetic mage ), you can change the source stat of monk's ac bonus to be to a different stat. So a monk/ninja/fist of forest would have wis/int/con to ac so long as they remain unarmored, not medium or heavy load, etc.

[Legendxp]

Suggestion: don't roll for HP. It's crazy that a streak of bad luck could give a Barbarian with his D12 hit die lower HP than the other members of his party.

We've decided to take 3/4 of his max roll, granting him 9 hp from his hit-die each level. This should help tremendously.


I thought untyped bonuses, like dodge bonuses, always stacked. (And really, if it were classed as anything, shouldn't a monk's AC bonus technically qualify as a dodge bonus?)

Normally yes, untyped bonuses do stack (although a dodge bonus is a typed bonus because it has a name, typed bonuses never stack unless they are dodge bonuses. An exception to this rule are circumstance bonuses). However, untyped bonus don't stack if they come from a source with the same name. For example, I take two levels of paladin and get the Divine Grace class feature, allowing me to add a bonus equal to my charisma to my saves. Later, I take a prestige class that also grants Divine Grace. I wouldn't be able to add the two bonuses together unless the second Divine Grace was of a different name (Such as Holy Grace or something). As for the monk bonus being a dodge bonus, its actually a 'wisdom bonus'. Some classes do specify their increases to AC as a dodge bonus but not the monk. As a side note, the reason the monk's bonus to AC and the Fist of the Forest's bonus to AC stack, is because one is a typed bonus (wisdom modifier) and the other is an untyped bonus. (untyped bonus equal to constitution)


When it comes to variants like the dragon mag ones or other ones from say UA. You can gain the class features if you can pay the price ( 'lose category' ) for them and meet pre-reqs. Like you can be a ( other variants in 310 ) Holy Raging monk, but not a Holy Hunter monk.

Ahh, I get it now. People were talking not about 'multi-classing', but taking multiple variants in 'one class'. I understand what you guys meant now, my bad.



When it comes to stacking abilities. Main reason for fist of forest to be stackable is that it is con to ac versus wis to ac. If you look up the ninja base class entry for 3.5e, you will see a mention that they get wis to ac too as well. This is including a blurb about wis to ac not being being twice. Now with a few feats ( kung fu genius, carmendine monk, ascetic mage ), you can change the source stat of monk's ac bonus to be to a different stat. So a monk/ninja/fist of forest would have wis/int/con to ac so long as they remain unarmored, not medium or heavy load, etc.

After doing some research, I now know that a Fist of the Forest's AC bonus does stack with the Monk's AC bonus. I am, however, still a bit uncertain as to the ninja/monk stacking. I'm not sure if the clause preventing the AC stacking is dependent on both stats requiring Wis or the name of the class feature itself. If it is the former I am definitely using this for a build I'm making.

Here's the blurb that you were talking about in regards to the AC stacking of monk and ninja.


Originally posted by Complete Adventurer
AC Bonus (Ex): A ninja is highly trained at dodging blows, and she has a sixth sense that lets her avoid even unanticipated attacks. When unarmored and unencumbered, a ninja adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her Armor Class. This ability does not stack with the monk’s AC bonus ability (a ninja with levels of monk does not add the bonus twice). In addition, a ninja gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five ninja levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

Bold is mine and underlined is what I think you were referring to in your post.