The Meanest Two Levels of Halfling...

[Palanan]

I'm working up a band of wild halflings for a low-level encounter, and I'm looking for build ideas for their war leader. He will be second level, young and brash, and he leads his pack with a blend of bravado and bullying.

I'd like to avoid spellcasting and psionics, and he won't have any formal martial training; he fights by way of cunning and a cruel streak, and he's just intelligent enough for his ideas to usually work. Given this, what would make him a respectably mean threat with only two levels?

[anacalgion]

Honestly I'd say just go barbarian. The fluff is there and it means he can survive a hit or two.

[eggynack]

Yeah, barbarians really only want two levels anyway. Give them all guisarmes, whirling frenzy, pounce, and improved trip, and watch them savage the very state of existence. Also, barbarians get intimidate, and are pretty good with it later on. The latter isn't particularly relevant here, but even a dead character would have a future if the PC's hadn't killed him, and imperious command is a cool future for a dead guy.

[OldTrees1]

Rogue 1 / Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem) 1
High skill points, lots of attacks, stronger than normal, sneak attack for even more goodness.

Switching the Rogue and Barbarian level opens up Weapon Finesse but reduces the skill points.

[eggynack]

But that way loses a BAB, improved trip, and 6 HP. Seems like a bad trade on a dedicated melee fellow.

[CyberThread]

Die hard feat chain and give it death frenzy from lords of madness, nice lil ...thing for a barbarian tribe to have.

[Coidzor]

Well, what variant(s) of halfling are you using? I'd recommend Stronghearts myself, at least for the leader.

If anything I'd say go ahead and bump him up to Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1.

Could also start in on the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415), I suppose, though that may also need bumping up to 3rd level.

Another possibility is to make some hit-and-run mounted characters mounted on something fast like axebeaks or ostriches. Maybe consider giving them Magebred mounts so that the Swift Breed variant helps increase their mounts' move speeds. You'd need to muck about with how ride-by-attack works, IIRC, unless you've already fixed it, if you want them to be melee rather than mounted archers. (Edit: Warbeast also increases speed of mounts by 10 feet, but, IIRC, increases CR by 1 for the mounts. I can't recall whether Magebred effects CR though. x.x Both would stack for a much hardier, faster mount though, but you'd probably run into the problem of having the mounts be tougher than the harlflings at that point. XD)

Some kind of feral refluffing of a Warblade, maybe? Or a homebrewed Warblade variant or one or two homebrewed wild/feral martial disciplines.

[Blackhawk748]

I second Barbarian, there is enough ACFs out there to make whatever kind you need. Also i second mounted halflings too, give them nets and bolas. Ranged trip attempts anyone?

[Coidzor]

I send Barbarian, there is enough ACFs out there to make whatever kind you need. Also i second mounted halflings too, give them nets and bolas. Ranged trip attempts anyone?

Rather tasty thought, bolas and lassos to trip, lassos to partially entangle, and then nets to fully entangle.

I wonder if there's any rules for dragging a creature along the ground behind one's mount and the damage that deals over time.

[Blackhawk748]

as far as i know, no, but id say 1d6+ the mounts Str mod sounds reasonable

[Grayson01]

I have to add another to Barb, Eberron Halflings Kick but! Go with the hit and run tactics with tripping. I even think there is a halfling weapon for tripping in Ebrron handbook.

[Blackhawk748]

So apparently its unanimous for a Halfling Trip Barbarian lol I am going to recommend a Spiked Chain if you have the open feat, they are pretty good for tripping.

[eggynack]

So apparently its unanimous for a Halfling Trip Barbarian lol I am going to recommend a Spiked Chain if you have the open feat, they are pretty good for tripping.
That works decently, but it might not be worth the feat cost. We're talking about what is likely the character's only feat. I would think something like combat reflexes would be better, and a guisarme with armor spikes could suffice for a weapon.

[CyberThread]

I reclaim my proposal of the feat death frenzy

Once they get into the -1 to -9 range they get the ability to act normal , +4 str and dex , gets another free attack if it can make a full attack. 10 + speed increase , and fast healing 2, until it reaches 2 HP gets a 1d4 str damage if it can heal back up.


You would have zombie like halflings.

[Callin]

Add in a Crusader/Marshal for increased to trip maneuvers.

[Coidzor]

I reclaim my proposal of the feat death frenzy

Once they get into the -1 to -9 range they get the ability to act normal , +4 str and dex , gets another free attack if it can make a full attack. 10 + speed increase , and fast healing 2, until it reaches 2 HP gets a 1d4 str damage if it can heal back up.


You would have zombie like halflings.

Doesn't that require Aboleth? :smallconfused:

[Palanan]

Thanks for the input, everyone, very much appreciated.


Originally Posted by Coidzor
Well, what variant(s) of halfling are you using? I'd recommend Stronghearts myself, at least for the leader.

I was indeed thinking strongheart, although I'm open to other suggestions. I'm also thinking one flaw, so that opens up the possibility for three feats on this guy, possibly four if I use a level of feat-rogue.

That said, I'm open to other halfling variants, although right off I can't think of one that would be more appropriate here.


Originally Posted by Coidzor and Blackhawk748
*mounted concepts*

In fact, I'd been thinking about having at least some of them riding regular wolves, although their war-leader would be more of an up-personal kind of fighter. These halflings wouldn't be sophisticated or connected enough to get their paws on anything more elaborate than ordinary wolves they've raised themselves.

(Full disclosure: I'm adapting a scenario which ngilop very kindly wrote up for me, which included Small creatures riding wolves.)


Originally Posted by Coidzor and Blackhawk748
*bolas, lassos and nets, o my!*

This is perfect for the spirit of this crowd. I'm still thinking a stand-and-fight approach for the war-leader, but I can definitely see several of his pack flinging bolas from wolfback.

As for the war-leader himself, I'm not sure if a tripper build is the way to go. Still looking for other options on him.


Originally Posted by CyberDrag
*promoting Death Frenzy*

And yes, this looks like it's specific to aboleths, which wouldn't quite work here.

.

[Piggy Knowles]

...you DO realize that halflings have an effective -5 to trip checks, right? That's a pretty significant drop.

I would suggest ToB for things like this. You've got a few options, such as...

1. NEVER SAY DIE

Strongheart Halfling, Crusader 1/Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1

FEATS: Extra Granted Maneuver, Stone Power
MANEUVERS: Crusader's Strike, Charging Minotaur, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Stone Bones, Martial Spirit (s)

Attack with a shield and scimitar. With a decent set of armor and shield, you're quite defensive, and Crusader's Strike/Martial Spirit should keep you and your party alive for some time. Stone Power and Steely Resolve effectively give you significant damage reduction, too. This thing has ridiculous AC and HP, and it just keeps on ticking for ages.

2. THUG LIVING

Strongheart Halfling, Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1/Warblade 1

FEATS: Craven, Weapon Finesse
MANEUVERS: Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Punishing Stance (s)

Dual-wield two finessable weapons (short swords always work) and go to town. Sudden Leap to close with your foes, then use the appropriate maneuver. Wolf Fang Strike and Punishing Stance against a flanked enemy can deal 2d4+2d6+4 if both attacks hit (16 average damage). If you can't get a flanked enemy, Sapphire Nightmare Blade catches an enemy flat-footed for a solid 1d4+3d6+2 (15 average damage).

3. BOMBS AWAY

Strongheart Halfling, Rogue 1/Fighter 1

FEATS: Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Net)

Quick draw nets, lassos, tanglefoot bags, flasks of acid and more, and throw them at your enemies. Make sure to carry lots of really obnoxious alchemical items, like smokesticks and stinkpots and the like. Basically, you want to debuff the ever-living crud out of your enemies with nets and tanglefoot bags and smoke clouds, keeping them away from you, and peppering them with sneak attack boosted flasks of acid.

(Note that you actually get the exact same result but better skills if you take the feat rogue and the sneak attack thug fighter variants, even though it seems a little bit silly to do so.)

[CyberThread]

you are the dm , would work just fine

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles
*various options*

Thanks for writing those up, I appreciate the suggestions. The two martial options are probably too strong for what I have in mind, but I love that third one. In fact, you've just inspired a new member of the pack: the slightly unbalanced alchemical guy. :smalltongue:

For the war-leader himself, at this point I'm leaning towards either Barbarian 1/Ranger 1 or Barbarian 1/Fighter 1. Fairly plain, yes, but I'd like this guy to have a comfortable margin of hit points (without being impossible for a low-level party) and a level of rogue taketh away from that without adding much else. (I love skill points like nobody's business, but this guy just isn't a skilly fellow.)

Marshal was also mentioned, and that sounds vaguely interesting, but I don't know beans about how that class works. Also, an underwhelming experience with a dragon shaman has left me a little leery of auras. So some mix of barbarian and fighter or ranger is probably where I'm headed...although now that I think of it, barbarian/scout could be interesting too.

[Particle_Man]

Thanks for writing those up, I appreciate the suggestions. The two martial options are probably too strong for what I have in mind, but I love that third one. In fact, you've just inspired a new member of the pack: the slightly unbalanced alchemical guy. :smalltongue:

For the war-leader himself, at this point I'm leaning towards either Barbarian 1/Ranger 1 or Barbarian 1/Fighter 1. Fairly plain, yes, but I'd like this guy to have a comfortable margin of hit points (without being impossible for a low-level party) and a level of rogue taketh away from that without adding much else. (I love skill points like nobody's business, but this guy just isn't a skilly fellow.)

Marshal was also mentioned, and that sounds vaguely interesting, but I don't know beans about how that class works. Also, an underwhelming experience with a dragon shaman has left me a little leery of auras. So some mix of barbarian and fighter or ranger is probably where I'm headed...although now that I think of it, barbarian/scout could be interesting too..

Favoured enemy player characters for the ranger? :smallsmile:

[Palanan]

Okay...help. Right now I'm torn between three options for my illiterate halfling war-leader. I'm convinced his first level should be barbarian, but I can't decide what that second level should be:


1. Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 is the safe money; an extra feat and a comfortable margin of hit points.

2. Barbarian 1/Ranger 1 gives some favored-enemy fun, plus a nice boost to both Fort and Reflex saves.

3. Barbarian 1/Scout 1 brings skirmish to the mix, but at the cost of +1 BAB. Seems like a decent trade, but not really sure.

For ACFs, the only one I've considered using is the Lion Spirit Totem for pounce, because that fits with my notion of this guy's rather manic scream-and-leap fighting style. However, at second level I'm not sure there's any need for it, and fast movement seems like a better deal for a second-level halfling.

So, given this, what should that second level be?

[Piggy Knowles]

If you also take the Whirling Frenzy ACF and/or TWF, then lion totem pounce is definitely worth it. Otherwise, I'd stick with fast movement.

[Palanan]

Thanks. I'm not a fan of stacking ACFs, so fast movement is likely where he'll stay.

So, Fighter, Ranger, Scout? I'm not sure which way to go.

[Coidzor]

Fighter's probably the quickest and dirtiest. If you're not getting multiple attacks, then Scout is less worth it for a charger. The Riposte ACF and some form of robilar's gambit + karmic strike + snap kick thing might be interesting for a scout, but is well away from what you want here...

[Kennisiou]

Throw a couple of sorcerors in there and make sure the other halflings all have 5 ranks in balance. Suddenly the battlefield is covered in grease and the halflings are the only ones receiving dex to AC (unless any of the players incorporate similar strategies). After the greasing is done, have the sorcs start throwing out rays of enfeeblement, aiming at low-ish strength heavy armor characters like clerics first. The goal here is to get them encumbered. Once that's done they should just aim at opposing arcane casters or other characters that have dumped their strength in order to paralyze them.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Coidzor
Fighter's probably the quickest and dirtiest. If you're not getting multiple attacks, then Scout is less worth it for a charger.

Thanks, I'd been thinking along those lines. Fighter seems like the best fit, since "quick and dirty" fits him to a T.

So, going Strongheart halfling with one flaw gets him three feats at first level and the fighter feat at second. Given that he's on foot with fast movement, and has all of +2 BAB, what's a good selection of feats for him?

[Coidzor]

Well, since he's not mounted that rules out mounted combat > ride-by-attack > spirited charge + wild cohort.

His BAB is too low for spring attack + bounding assault or whatever that other feat is that improves upon spring attacking.

Hmm, wish I remembered incarnum better, but even the ones of interest to a charging character just from shaping are best with multiple attacks on a charge like urskan greaves or thunderstep boots. I guess Astral Vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) give some DR just for being shaped.

Then again, you might be able to get some mileage with Aberrant feats, though without pounce I'm not sure what you'd combo with Aberrant Heritage > Inhuman Reach, since I usually think of Deepspawn for the 2 tentacle natural weapons/attacks.

If you were using a variant where -10 wasn't death but -Con or something, Diehard would actually be worth-it-ish, but you're not so it's pointless of me to type out these words. XD Yeah, I got nothing worthwhile, sorry.

[Palanan]

Heh, no worries. :smalltongue:

I suppose it would help if I specified a weapon...but I'm torn between his using a spear or a halfling-scaled sword of some kind. The spear would work better with the wild-halfling motif, but it doesn't say screaming-crazy-halfling-in-your-grille like I really want it to.

Sadly, neither does the sword. I'd been toying with the idea of his using a scavenged katana as a makeshift greatsword, but that would probably burn all his feats right there.

[OldTrees1]

Heh, no worries. :smalltongue:

I suppose it would help if I specified a weapon...but I'm torn between his using a spear or a halfling-scaled sword of some kind. The spear would work better with the wild-halfling motif, but it doesn't say screaming-crazy-halfling-in-your-grille like I really want it to.

Sadly, neither does the sword. I'd been toying with the idea of his using a scavenged katana as a makeshift greatsword, but that would probably burn all his feats right there.

Give him a spear but ignore the "x2 damage against charge" and describe it as whatever crazy blade weapon you want.

[Blackhawk748]

Give him a scythe, its a martial weapon and scythes are scary, he could have stolen it or something. as for feats? Combat Expertise, imp trip? its not terrible and seriously, a screaming halfling that drops you onto your rear end and then starts wailing on you is scary

[Coidzor]

Heh, no worries. :smalltongue:

I suppose it would help if I specified a weapon...but I'm torn between his using a spear or a halfling-scaled sword of some kind. The spear would work better with the wild-halfling motif, but it doesn't say screaming-crazy-halfling-in-your-grille like I really want it to.

Sadly, neither does the sword. I'd been toying with the idea of his using a scavenged katana as a makeshift greatsword, but that would probably burn all his feats right there.

A katana's just a masterwork bastard sword, so he'd have it as a two-handed weapon without needing any feats.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk748
Give him a scythe, its a martial weapon and scythes are scary....

The scythe. It's perfect.

*rubs hands*


Originally Posted by Coidzor
A katana's just a masterwork bastard sword, so he'd have it as a two-handed weapon without needing any feats.

Huh. For some reason I thought EWP was required for the katana.

Also....


Originally Posted by Kennisiou
Throw a couple of sorcerors in there...

Thanks, it's a good idea for a low-level encounter, something I'll keep in mind.



--So, looking more closely at the scythe: awesome concept, perfect visuals, but rather dinky damage for the Small version. Power Attack doesn't seem like it would be worthwhile at second level....but, two-handed, so maybe.

Rage might help a little, and rage + charge might also help, especially with Furious Charge, maybe with Headlong Rush on top of that? (Supposedly orc-only, but I'm willing to add a wild-halfling clause.)

So, maybe Power Attack, Furious Charge, Headlong Rush...and then a bonus fighter feat on top of that?

[PraxisVetli]

Leap attack for super scything.
screaming jumping swinging scything " halfling in your grille"

[Coidzor]

Leap attack for super scything.
screaming jumping swinging scything " halfling in your grille"

Hard to get 8 ranks of jump as a 2nd level character, but... there you go. :/

[Palanan]

Yup, Leap Attack isn't really feasible before sixth level, and certainly not at second.

So, would there be any problems in combining Power Attack, Furious Charge and Headlong Rush? And what would be a good fighter feat to top it off?