[3.5] Swift Hunter - Ranger/Monk

[A.A.King]

Awhile a go I asked for a bit of clarification on a Swift Ambusher build that didn't use scout levels. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295205) The idea was to use Halfling Monk Racial Substitution Levels to get Skirmish instead of Scout levels and then use Swift Ambusher to make my Rogue Levels double up as Scout (even though I don't any) to make a quite potent combatant (against all creatures not immune to precision damage)

Well now I'm gonna try to do the same with Swift Hunter. The basis will be pretty similar, probably looking like this: Ranger 1 / Monk 5 / Ranger 14 with the first 3 feats (other then bonus feats) looking like this:
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Ascetic Hunter
6. Swift Hunter
Ending up with o.a. Skirmish (+5d6, +5AC), 4 Favored Enemies and Unarmed Damage of 2d8 and a BAB of 18

The thing is though, how do I optimize the Ranger Side? I'm wondering which of the Alternative Class Features and/or Alternate Base Classes I should or shouldn't pick.

My main concern here are Mystic Ranger and Wild Shape Ranger.
Mystic Ranger means I have to take 2 levels of ranger before I can take ascetic Hunter, either making that or swift hunter my 9th level feat instead of the nice way it goes now. I also get another Favored Enemy Less. Further I don't know much about it and it's always appeared to me that the Sword of the Arcane Order Feat and Shooting Star Substitution levers are pretty much mandatory and intelligence is a dump stat.

Wild Shape gives me a immediate speed boost, which is nice, but it also takes forever to appear thanks to my monk levels. I also don't know exactly how well it synergizes with my monk. Personally I'm not sure if it's better then Two Weapon fighting, because I can basically re-fluff Two-Weapon Fighting as delayed flurry and it works very well with Skirmish Damage.

So, what do you guys think? Should I use Mystic/Wild Shape/Both/Neither form of ranger?

[Kennisiou]

In general on a swift hunter build you don't want to give up combat style. Swift Archery is super good and swift TWF is one of the few ways to make TWF sort of work (and isn't a bad use of swift huntering).

That said... If you use any of the variants that get rid of combat style, wildshape ranger is one of the few that can work. You can shape into forms with pounce and get multiple attacks off, especially since as a monk you can use unarmed strikes as your manufactured full attack followed by multiattacking with your full natural weapon routine to hit for several attacks worth of skirmish damage. Wildshaping into a fleshraker is honestly a nice choice here, since it gets you pounce, free trip, free grapple, and poison.

As for mystic ranger, I've never played it but it seems to me like it's worth considering on a swift hunter if you're taking ten levels of ranger since apparently l10 is where it stops progressing casting.

So in short, I guess both of them can work but you don't need to do either. Sorry for the wishy-washy answer.

[A.A.King]

Any reply is usually a good reply, even if the awnser is a bit wishy-washy

The question is, is the Wild Shape worth it at such a late point in the game? Especially if you start from level 3.

[Kennisiou]

Wildshape ranger is always a bit weak early on. If you've got a build that's already taking a while to get going (which it looks like your build does) then wildshape ranger's slow start... you probably won't even feel it. Especially since ranged swift hunter doesn't really go online until its sixth ranger level. TWF is the only one that really gets an early start, since it only needs two ranger levels and a pounce/swift movement source before it starts to get strong. Wildshape ranger can go live starting at five ranger levels as long as you get a feat on that fifth level to take extra wildshape with. Beyond that if you're worried about the archetype taking a while to really go live, remember you still have your skirmish monk shenanigans even if ranger isn't backing them up. It's not a lot, but it's something.

I feel like no matter what you do with this build you're probably going to want a one-level dip somewhere (if this works like a normal swift hunter build you should only need 19 levels for max skirmish damage and all you lose is one favored enemy). Melee TWF wants one for swift movement/pounce (so either cloistered cleric or barbarian depending on if you like knowledge devotion more than getting more base attack bonus and the potential of taking the frenzy variant on rage for even more attacks), ranged wants one for swift movement (usually cloistered cleric for knowledge devotion, travel devotion, then undeath domain for a free extra turning feat to power travel devotion), and if you go wildshape you'll probably want to dip one level in master of many forms since it gives one more wildshape a day, one more hour in wildshape, humanoid forms (useful for random disguise utility), and the big one: shaper's speech. Being able to just be a dinosaur all day as long as you aren't in towns without losing the ability to communicate with the party is huge.

Also, because mystic ranger has really strong early spell progression it's a great idea to use on wildshape and archer builds, since it makes your ranger levels before the important ones give a lot more utility.

So where I stand, it looks like your options are:

If you want early strength, TWF ranger. If you want later strength, archer or wildshape. If you want to mitigate some of the early uselessness of archer or wildshape builds, mystic ranger is very helpful.

[A.A.King]

Actually, I don't need a 1 level dip. It works a bit different from a normal Swift Hunter Build. My skirmish comes from two sources:
Halfling Monk (Racial Substitution Levels) & Swift Hunter + Ranger Levels

Halfling Monk grants me +1d6 at level 1 and +1 AC at level 5, I only take 5 levels so that is optimal. Taking any less means I can't take Swift Hunter
Swift Hunter allows me to add all my Ranger and Scout levels together and use that as my Scout level for skirimish. This is different from a normal Swift Hunter Build because I used a different source of Skirmish Damage to qualify. At level 20 I have 15 Ranger Levels and 0 Scout levels = 15 Scout levels. At level 15 Scout grant Skirmish (+4d6, +4 AC) which is +1 AC more then level 14. Ranger 15 also grants me a 4th Favored Enemy (if I don't go mystic).

I will use the 10-Foot Step that a monk can learn as a trigger for Skirmish.

I'm definitely leaning towards going TWF with my unarmed attacks, but the fact that Wild Shape Ranger is usually considered a better form for ranger made me think it was better to just question


The real issue is, do I go Mystic, yes or no?
The combat works nicely at level 2, when I have a reasonably to-hit and my skirmish. Gets better at level 4 when I get my first upgrade in Unarmed Damage and at level 6 my skirmish will start improving.

If I go mystic I have spells, and I'm at a similiar position at level 2 (Weapon Finesse, +1 BAB and +1d6 Skirmish) but I would have to wait till level 9 for my first extra Skirmish d6. So I would be a bit worse when it comes to fighting at the levels 6 7 & 8

[nedz]

The problem with Swift hunter is that it makes your Ranger and Scout levels stack. Unfortunately you have 0 Scout levels — so it would take a DM's ruling to get this to work.

Mystic Ranger was published in Dragon 336. It has extra 0th and 5th level spells, with fast spell progression until level 10; unfortunately because there are no higher level Ranger spells defined you only get more slots after this.

The price you pay is that various class features are delayed, but only by a few levels. Oh, and you lose martial weapon profs (except for Ranged).

[A.A.King]

The problem with Swift hunter is that it makes your Ranger and Scout levels stack. Unfortunately you have 0 Scout levels — so it would take a DM's ruling to get this to work.

Mystic Ranger was published in Dragon 336. It has extra 0th and 5th level spells, with fast spell progression until level 10; unfortunately because there are no higher level Ranger spells defined you only get more slots after this.

The price you pay is that various class features are delayed, but only by a few levels. Oh, and you lose martial weapon profs (except for Ranged).

I knew the stats and the gains and loss in statistical terms, I just don't know much about it when being played and if those Ranger Spells are worth the delay and loss of 4th Favored Enemy and loss of Animal Companion (which I would have traded in otherwise anyway)

Last time (with the Swift Ambusher) I was also afraid that 0 Scout Levels meant that the trick didn't work but in my last thread I was the only one to think so. It's about the wording. If you look at the wording of Ascetic Hunter, it says
"If you have levels in [b]ranger and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your unarmed strike damage."
Where as Swift Hunter just says
"Your ranger and scout levels stack for the purpose of determining the extra damage and bonus to Armor Class granted when skirmishing."
It lacks any rules stipulating that you need both Ranger and Scout. It is just assumed that you get the Skirmish (+1d6, +1AC) from Scout levels. The way it is worded makes the sum of 0 Scout Levels + 15 Ranger Levels = 15 Effective Scout levels a fair calculation to make.

[TuggyNE]

Last time (with the Swift Ambusher) I was also afraid that 0 Scout Levels meant that the trick didn't work but in my last thread I was the only one to think so. It's about the wording. If you look at the wording of Ascetic Hunter, it says
"If you have levels in [b]ranger and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your unarmed strike damage."
Where as Swift Hunter just says
"Your ranger and scout levels stack for the purpose of determining the extra damage and bonus to Armor Class granted when skirmishing."
It lacks any rules stipulating that you need both Ranger and Scout. It is just assumed that you get the Skirmish (+1d6, +1AC) from Scout levels. The way it is worded makes the sum of 0 Scout Levels + 15 Ranger Levels = 15 Effective Scout levels a fair calculation to make.

D&D does not know the difference between null (which propagates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_%28SQL%29#Null_propagation)) and zero (which does not). News at 11.

[Callin]

If you dont want your Animal Companion the Solitary Hunter ACF is for you. Its from Dragon Mag 347 and lets you add your Favored Enemy bonus to your attack rolls.

Mystic Ranger I think would slow you down too much. Sure its spells but your actions are all ready limited as is if you want to utilize your abilities properly. Spell Less Ranger is almost worth it for the bonus feats. Almost.

[A.A.King]

If you dont want your Animal Companion the Solitary Hunter ACF is for you. Its from Dragon Mag 347 and lets you add your Favored Enemy bonus to your attack rolls.

Mystic Ranger I think would slow you down too much. Sure its spells but your actions are all ready limited as is if you want to utilize your abilities properly. Spell Less Ranger is almost worth it for the bonus feats. Almost.

Solitary hunter definitely sounds nice, especially when I specialize in Arcanists. Yeah, Mystic Ranger appears to slow me down too much, though getting stuff like Hunter's Eyes earlier seemed like an appealing idea. Not gonna go for Spell Less Ranger though, very unappealing bonuses.

[Darrin]

Ending up with o.a. Skirmish (+5d6, +5AC), 4 Favored Enemies and Unarmed Damage of 2d8 and a BAB of 18

The thing is though, how do I optimize the Ranger Side? I'm wondering which of the Alternative Class Features and/or Alternate Base Classes I should or shouldn't pick.


ACFs

Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion), swap wild empathy -> speak with animals/plants 3/day.

Skilled City Dweller (Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)), swap Ride -> Tumble.

Distracting Attack (PHBII), swap animal companion -> flanking attack.

Trap Expert (Dungeonscape), swap Track -> Trapfinding. Unless you need Track for something else, such as Highland Stalker (two levels for a quick +1d6 skirmish) or you want to go Dragonborn of Bahumat and swap an existing feat for Dragon Tail/Wings.

Wildshape Ranger

Pro: Wildshape synergizes extremely well with with Improved Unarmed Strike, and certain abilities like Pounce can help trigger skirmish. Con: Wildshape comes in so late (ECL10), it will probably feel underpowered. MoMF doesn't really help here, as it will bone your skirmish progression. You need MoMF 6 and Frozen Wild Shape to get cryohydra, so that's probably out as well. Aberrant Wild Shape... two feats, just not worth it.

Mystic Ranger

I think the only real downside here is it delays Favored Enemy by a level, which mucks up when you take Aescetic/Swift Hunter. I think we can fix that with Hunting Monk (Dragon #310), which swaps your 1st level monk bonus feat and Slow Fall for Favored Enemy.

As far as Sword of the Arcane Order and Shooting Star... they are quite nifty, yes, but not taking them isn't absolutely unforgivable. SotAO is subject to some DM hand-waving as far as how it's supposed to work, and you may run into some restrictive interpretations that make it less appealing. The big plus here is combining it with Mystic Ranger lets you cast 5th level wizard spells, which is of course a dozen flavors of awesomesauce. To get the most out of it, you need Int 15/Wis 14, so I wouldn't call either of those a dump stat, Shooting Star adds sending 1/day, +2 CL, some bonus slots, and some bonus spells. The best thing about it is it trades away all the useless Ranger stuff you don't need (Endurance, Animal Companion, Swift Tracker). If your campaign world doesn't include the Weave and/or Mystra, it might get bounced just for fluff reasons. If they are allowed, I think both are worth trying to fit in.

Other PrCs to Consider

Highland Stalker 2 gives you +1d6 skirmish damage. You need to keep Track, but every other prereq is just cake for a ranger.

Dragon Devotee 4 advances skirmish damage by +2d6, and gives you a level of sorcerer casting (if you didn't have arcane spells already via SotAO). Following this up with Unseen Seer 4 also advances skirmish damage by +2d6. The cost of this is you lose some Combat Style stuff and additional Favored Enemies, although may be able to make up for that with Extra Favored Enemy from Masters of the Wild.

Hunting Monk 5/Mystic Ranger 10/Dragon Devotee 4/Something 1 gets you +6d6 skirmish, BAB +16ish/17ish, 5th level ranger spells (possibly 5th level wizard, too), three Favored Enemies, and two Combat Style feats. Might be room for a Cloistered Cleric or Barbarian dip.

Hunting Monk 5/Mystic Ranger 13/Highland Stalker 2 also gets +6d6 Skirmish, BAB +18, three Favored Enemies, and three Combat Style feats. Also more multiclass friendly if your group plays with multiclass penalties, as you can take Arctic Halfling (UA) or Tundra Halfling (Frostburn) for favored class: Ranger.

[A.A.King]

Thank you for your detailed reply. Sword of the Arcane order is definetly out though. This is mostly a combat character and I can't afford the high INT.

Hunting Monk is a nice way around it, but I'm not sure if I want to lose Stunning Fist. It definitely has some nice synergies with Ascetic Hunter and usually my monk builds don't get to pick up stuff like Freezing the Lifeblood. I am however thinking of picking up "Foe Hunter" at level 3 (trading it in for Weapon Finesse I got level 1 from Ranger as I will get it back as my second (Halfling) Monk Bonus feat)

I very much like your suggestions for PrC classes. Of those is Highland Stalker more my thing. I also very much appreciate the suggestions for alternative halflings, we usually play with the rule that you can pick your own favorite class, but it's nice to know that this idea still works if we wouldn't do that :smallsmile:

[Grayson01]

When making a Ranger I always use the Unearthed Arcan "ACF" Favored Enemy Arcanist. Makes your Favored Enemy anything that casts spells, or spell like ablilities.
That covers So many creatures and Base Clases.
Oh Your a Gnomb you can cast Dancling lights you Count, Your a Drow You can cast Darkness you count too, Your a Warlock you count too, Oh your a Duskblade you count too. It's kinda a no brainer as far as favored Enemies.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It is a really good ACF, but it is from Complete Mage, not from unearthed Arcana:smallwink:

[Grayson01]

It is a really good ACF, but it is from Complete Mage, not from unearthed Arcana:smallwink:

My bad, that's what I get for posting at work AFBs lol

[A.A.King]

Yeah, that's the one Ranger ACF I was already sure of, it's just that good:)