Why do people hate "Magic-Mart"?

[Alabenson]

I’m going to say something that a number of forum-goers here are going to strongly disagree with:
I actually like the concept of a “Magic-Mart”.
I like it from a DM’s perspective, I like it from a player’s perspective and I like it from a fluff perspective. 3.5 DnD operates under the assumption that players are going to have a certain amount of purchased magic improving their murder-hoboing abilities, and, as it has been pointed out many times before, the system tends to break down when that assumption is incorrect, particularly for classes that already have issues. As a DM, I don’t necessarily want to have to go to the trouble of making my players jump through hoops for every piece of equipment they need, nor do I particularly want to have to go on a quest or rely on the DM’s whims to equip myself.
As for fluff, I find the notion that at some point, entrepreneurial-minded individuals realized that wandering murder-hobos with excessive cash were willing to pay fantastic sums of money for magic items and then decided to make a business of procuring and selling said magic items to be perfectly reasonable. The only reason magic item shops wouldn’t exist in a world is if magic items are incredibly rare, and if that’s the case I’d tend to start questioning why the DM is running 3.5e in the first place.

So, I ask, why would someone choose to run a 3.5e DnD game and at the same time reject the concept of a magic item shop?

[Silva Stormrage]

Mostly its the fluff aspect and a bit of the mechanics of how the fluff works. It certainly is easier and I don't hate magic mart but I only use it in major cities.

For explanation on the fluff, magic items require XP and a caster. Most mages can't craft that many items before running out of xp and they lose xp far faster than they gain it. In order to get around that you need some sort of regenerating XP system (Which does exist in 3.5 but I rather it not be used for the most part). Also many settings are not as interconnected so an average sized city might only have one or two casters who can afford to make magic items. They aren't always going to make say a shadowcaster item if there are no shadow casters in the city. So if a PC shadowcaster enters the city they shouldn't expect to be able to buy all of their items that they want.

[killem2]

In my session, there is only one true magic mart, ran mostly by gnomes, in a floating city of magic, protected by ancient artifact that powers a very selective reflective field around it.


This city is on a very small continent in which they all started, and is roughly a 6-7 month trip by sea to get back there.

This particular city is pretty much out of teleport reach. Otherwise, if someone wants something, they can ask for it, I can advise them to check locally, gives them a reason to interact with people.

Usually it leads them somewhere to go explore.

Otherwise, I'm pretty good at dropping them nice things.

[OracleofWuffing]

For what it's worth, one of the implications of a Magic Mart is that somewhere in the world, there is a place where all of the necessities to save the world are located, but the people in that area have no interest in saving the world from something that's trying to destroy the world, and the thing that's trying to destroy the world has no interest in destroying or looting the place where all those necessities are located.

This is why my Magic Mart stocks the Stupid Ball.

[Waker]

There are several fluff reasons where I have issues with it.
The first off being the protection of the shop, items and people within. Why pay for anything when you can just steal it or kill the shopkeeper or... Even if you try to justify the party wouldn't do it because of alignment, what about less scrupulous individuals? The end result is a shop that is more magically defensible than the king's own throne room.
Then you have the issue of lessening the import of the items themselves. Rather than having a magical heirloom, you have the equivalent of a gun you picked up at the shop. King Arthur, Beowulf, Baggins, Sigurd and more characters from myth and modern literature didn't just buy their magic items, they earned them through trial or prophecy.

[TrollCapAmerica]

There are several fluff reasons where I have issues with it.
The first off being the protection of the shop, items and people within. Why pay for anything when you can just steal it or kill the shopkeeper or... Even if you try to justify the party wouldn't do it because of alignment, what about less scrupulous individuals? The end result is a shop that is more magically defensible than the king's own throne room.
Then you have the issue of lessening the import of the items themselves. Rather than having a magical heirloom, you have the equivalent of a gun you picked up at the shop. King Arthur, Beowulf, Baggins, Sigurd and more characters from myth and modern literature didn't just buy their magic items, they earned them through trial or prophecy.

King Arthur also didnt need a cloak of resistance to avoid being turned into a stalk of corn and wasent in a game where he ever needed anything more than Excalibur and to follow the plot to the end

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think it has something to do with a distaste for the idea of a magical equivalent to wal-mart. Can't say as I disagree with the sentiment.

However, as the OP noted, there needs to be a market for magic items in the setting or the system breaks down.

I came up with this
I'm with the crowd saying a stockpile of highly valuable magical items all in a 'shop' doesn't make any sense.

You can get minor magic items (as in DMG table 7-27) by going to one of a number of local guilds, unions, or confederacies or even the odd noble house, depending on what exactly it is you're looking for; e.g. the mercanary companies have surplus arms and armor, usually looted from dungeons or off of targets, to supplement funding from jobs, likewise with the thieves guild for your more larcenous tools but not the loot because they have to fence that stuff asap to actually make a profit, the exploration confederacy sells items useful for travel and exploration as well as bits and bobs from the latest expedition that they haven't traded away yet, and the wizard's tower or temple of the god of commerce or artifice will have a broad selection of a bit of everything as well as the tools of the spellcasting trade and can have initiate members craft items on request. None of them will have a standing stockpile though, only a few, mostly random items that they're more likely to trade than to sell.

A +1 weapon is worth 40 trade-bars worth of gold. Nobody except money changers, trading companies, and governments traffic in that kind of cash. The above mentioned companies and guilds will -trade- you their goods for your loot and old equipment and will accept cash if you've got it, but -none- of them will give you cash for your crap unless it's something that they'll have a serious use for. They're going to immediately sell your old stuff to one or another trading company for cash for their own use.

The trading companies don't keep anything at the local office at all and don't do trade in minor items with individuals from the general public. They facilitate the exchange of those goods between the various companies and guilds and supply the governments with items in quantity immensely faster than the governments' crafters can make them. They will, however, deal with individuals for the exchange of intermediate and major magic items as brokers.

The only shops that actually keep a stockpile of magical goods are potion brewers. They don't worry about thieves because their whole stock is labeled in code, the key to which is either stored somewhere very secure after hours or only exists in the shop owner's head. There's also the factor of potions being pretty much unsellable by anyone but the guy who makes them. This is because there's no way to know if the potion you're being sold second-hand is what the seller says it is because he almost certainly didn't make it and if he stole it he might not even know what it is. If you rob a potion maker's shop the best you're going to get is a couple scrolls of spells that aren't on the shopkeeper's list, maybe a schema of a spell for a particularly popular potion, and a crap-ton of potions that you'll have to identify and can't sell. You might also get a few alchemical items, but noone cares about that.

Ultimately it has no mechanical effect, characters can still drop their loot and pick up new gear up to the community gp limits, but there are certain setting ramifications. In particular it helps to fill out a community's buildings with various potential employers for the more mercenary PC's.

[thompur]

For myself, I heartily admit that it's a relic from my OD&D, 1E, & 2E days, when magic items were special, and you earned every last +1 dagger and Elven Cloak. You couldn't stroll down to the local Magic -Mart, just 'cuz you had a few GP burning a hole in your back pack. On the other hand, I tended to the Monty Haul end of the DM spectrum. n:smallwink:

[Honest Tiefling]

One could certainly fluff a Magic Mart into a campaign world. I think it would be like the Kender--In theory, a small race of happy-go lucky thieves could in fact work to suit many people. On the other hand, it might seem weird to have them in a Grimdark fantasy world of humans only based on Medieval Europe.

I am going to try not to use them because:
1) I prefer worlds where you don't need a pocket spell caster to be in power, nor need powerful NPCs everywhere. These items have to come from somewhere, after all.

2) For simplicity (and to player suggestion) I rather not run something in a metropolis but on the frontier. A magic mart here seems rather silly, since it is supposed to be a remote outpost.

3) My party has had bad experiences with NPCs of a certain power level, and I rather not think of a powerful NPC that could feasibly protect such a vast hoard of riches.

4) I'm pretty ****ing lazy and I rather not have to worry about if I gave the fighter a +4 sword yet or not.

5) I wanna see my players fight over an immovable rod or a decanter of endless water.

I think I like the idea of an artifact causing those who spend too much time around it to become stupid. I might have to steal it.

[Waker]

King Arthur also didnt need a cloak of resistance to avoid being turned into a stalk of corn and wasent in a game where he ever needed anything more than Excalibur and to follow the plot to the end

Obviously there are more issues to consider than just the fluff, but I've always had issues with the Christmas Tree effect in the game. When it comes to little toys that help out like potions and nick-knacks, that is the kind of stuff I would expect to find in a magic mart. But when it comes to the really powerful weapons, armor, staffs and so on, those should be items actually earned or discovered.
I dunno, it bothers me in games when the character's import is determined by their gear. One of the biggest issues I have with MMOs and it's something I try to avoid in pen and paper RPGs.

[Psyren]

For explanation on the fluff, magic items require XP and a caster.

Note that in PF, for magic weapons/armor and wondrous items, neither of these are needed. So these items are much easier to justify as being available.

[Honest Tiefling]

King Arthur also didnt need a cloak of resistance to avoid being turned into a stalk of corn and wasent in a game where he ever needed anything more than Excalibur and to follow the plot to the end

He had a cambion wizard as a cohort, so that might be cheating(who really could have used an item to boost his will saves!). Also, the loss of his scabbard is what did him in many myths, so he did actually need more then his sword.

I think however, as a DM if I could get a player so attached to their sword for reasons other then power, I would count it as a success.

[Brookshw]

For myself, I heartily admit that it's a relic from my OD&D, 1E, & 2E days, when magic items were special, and you earned every last +1 dagger and Elven Cloak. You couldn't stroll down to the local Magic -Mart, just 'cuz you had a few GP burning a hole in your back pack. On the other hand, I tended to the Monty Haul end of the DM spectrum. n:smallwink:

I have to +1 this though I wish 3.5 had a more coherent structure to support original intent vs. later books. Ah well, publish or perish.

[ryu]

Obviously there are more issues to consider than just the fluff, but I've always had issues with the Christmas Tree effect in the game. When it comes to little toys that help out like potions and nick-knacks, that is the kind of stuff I would expect to find in a magic mart. But when it comes to the really powerful weapons, armor, staffs and so on, those should be items actually earned or discovered.
I dunno, it bothers me in games when the character's import is determined by their gear. One of the biggest issues I have with MMOs and it's something I try to avoid in pen and paper RPGs.

Except in a world where magic in general is presumed so common that even extremely small towns often have at least one wizard going by book made assumptions and guidelines, magic items are logically common by extension the instant a mechanism for their creation is part of the rules. Just going by basic population statistics, and the obvious demand for these baubles SOMEONE will supply. Also, no, it is not hard to single-handedly create magic mart especially if you're a wizard.

[NichG]

Personally, the main thing I disagree with here is the sentiment of 'if you're trying to do anything outside of D&D 3.5's core assumptions, you should use a different system'.

The thing I like most about D&D 3.5 is actually how flexible it is compared to other systems. If I want to run a gritty, low-magic game in 3.5, its quite possible to do - as long as I am aware of the potential pitfalls such as enemies with high DR and players taking casting classes. There are even supplements and replacement casting systems that directly play to this idea (e.g. Black Company d20).

If I want to run a low-end scifi-fantasy game (e.g. something like Eberron), I can use the same base system. High fantasy is also attainable (Faerun). Heck, if I want a game about superheroes in the modern day, a bit of refluffing and I'm good to go.

So if you recognize the ways in which one can perturb the system, the magic mart is no longer 'mandated' by the rules. At that point, its a matter of setting taste entirely and has nothing at all to do with the mechanical support. Whether or not unmodified D&D 3.5 supports removing the magic-mart well or not is basically irrelevant to whether or not one actually uses magic-marts in their 3.5 game, because its not that hard to adapt to it - borrowing stat-bonus-by-level from Iron Kingdoms, or just prorating CRs and banning Tier 1 and Tier 2 characters, or whatever.

As a matter of taste then, I personally do tend to dislike the magic mart. Think of it this way - how many items are there which are basically too situationally useful to buy (or to not sell for that matter), but which are neat or interesting? When magic items become interchangeable, there's a tendency to get rid of those oddities in favor of big-6 and other 'magic taxes'.

On the other hand, if you get a Decanter of Endless Water and there's really nothing better to do with it than to keep it, then that kind of curio magic item stays around and sees some use. Maybe it ends up being used to solve a difficult situation or a puzzle. Heck, if there's a lot of this 'oddball' magic floating around the party, it might even make sense for the lion's share of it to make its way into the hands of the non-casters, leveling the field a bit for their participation outside of combat (depends on the players of course).

In a broader sense, having magic be unique and difficult to replicate improves the general feeling of magic as mystical/ineffable rather than just science-by-another-name. This is important to certain kinds of stories and themes.

From a setting point of view, having magic items be difficult to duplicate/mass-produce also means that their use doesn't get standardized, so it moves away from the Tippyverse side of things. That can help stabilize settings that would otherwise collapse towards Tippyverse if the players were to push hard enough. This of course means that NPC crafting of magic items must be limited/restricted, but there are many ways to go about doing that (a very simple one would be, NPCs do not gain XP if they do not adventure; another way is just modify the demographics).

[TrollCapAmerica]

Obviously there are more issues to consider than just the fluff, but I've always had issues with the Christmas Tree effect in the game. When it comes to little toys that help out like potions and nick-knacks, that is the kind of stuff I would expect to find in a magic mart. But when it comes to the really powerful weapons, armor, staffs and so on, those should be items actually earned or discovered.
I dunno, it bothers me in games when the character's import is determined by their gear. One of the biggest issues I have with MMOs and it's something I try to avoid in pen and paper RPGs.

Keep in mind im an old school 1st/2nd ed player myself so I know exactly where this sorta feeling springs up from here.The thing is I think a properly run and realistically conceived Magical shop is perfectly reasonable and doesnt ever preclude going on big quests for the sword in the stone

Character worth also isnt quite determined by items and especially not as much as in old editions where many times Magic items were the ONLY difference between PCs especially the mundane ones.From my grognard POV this was a step forward

[awa]

the problem with the idea that high level wizard means there must be loads of magic items just sitting around for sale.
1) ignores the fact that magic items have an extreme production both in gold time and xp most are incredibly nich which means having a "stock" is incredible impractical for anything other then the most generic items.
2) a stock pile of magic items is so ridiculously valuable you will need to spend a ton on defenses to stop thieves further cutting into your profits.
3) it assumes high level wizards have nothing better to do then make magic items for other people when they could be actually doing something with their power. Do you think more then a handful of wizard in the world would study for years learning powers capable of crushing armies and traveling to heaven and beyond would say yes i want to be a factory worker churning out swords so the random fighter can pick the bane sword of there choice when they come into town.
4) and this is a big one for me it means that no matter how good the party is what incredible things they accomplish there is some guy in town sitting on a pile of magic items who could have done it better if he felt like it.

[Slipperychicken]

There's a relatively common idea that magic should be special, and the only items which are magical should be memorable. If it only slightly increases your numbers and can be found in a shop down the street, that's boring. If you have to quest or something for your magic items, that's cool and memorable.

Also, the components and failure chances which used to be necessary for magic item crafting gave pretty clear reasons for why Magic Mart (TM) wouldn't be a thing. When you need the eyes of 30 Ogres to make a +1 weapon, or if it takes the teeth of 50 hellhounds to make a fireball wand, it quickly becomes apparent that such items aren't going to be available for sale. That also gives magic items a great deal of prestige; if you know that someone had to kill 20+ powerful monsters (possibly multiples of that due to crafting failures) to make that sword magical, then you're going to respect it a lot more. However, if all it takes is gold and time, then the magic items stop being so special.


In terms of 3.5 and economics, powerful magic items are, when you think about it, niche goods. There's an extremely small number of customers for them (murderhobo adventurers), who tend to be extraordinarily rich. So chances are, you're unlikely to find them for sale anywhere except cities which have enough magic item consumption to warrant a specialty shop for it.

[Sylthia]

I usually have a Magic Mart in big cities, but I'll make a few exceptions, like not being able to buy the stat increasing books.

In smaller towns, the stock will be more limited, but usually will have level appropriate gear available.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Also, the components and failure chances which used to be necessary for magic item crafting gave pretty clear reasons for why Magic Mart (TM) wouldn't be a thing. When you need the eyes of 30 Ogres to make a +1 weapon, or if it takes the teeth of 50 hellhounds to make a fireball wand, it quickly becomes apparent that such items aren't going to be available for sale. That also gives magic items a great deal of prestige; if you know that someone had to kill 20+ powerful monsters (possibly multiples of that due to crafting failures) to make that sword magical, then you're going to respect it a lot more. However, if all it takes is gold and time, then the magic items stop being so special.

Actually thats exactly why Magic items shouldnt have existed in old editions.The kind of hoops they expected you to jump through for magical gear was downright obscene and no wizard in his right mind should have blowing constitution on the +1 swords that were everywhere in even piece of published material

[Slipperychicken]

Actually thats exactly why Magic items shouldnt have existed in old editions.The kind of hoops they expected you to jump through for magical gear was downright obscene and no wizard in his right mind should have blowing constitution on the +1 swords that were everywhere in even piece of published material

Having read some 2e rules myself, I completely agree with this.

[georgie_leech]

I've always just abstracted it as not being a literal Magic Mart so much as being able to reasonably find magical items in cities. In my games, you generally won't find anywhere that stockpiles magic items, but if a PC wants to get a +X Whatever, if it's within the wealth guidelines for the city it's assumed that, say, the Minor Noble Inconsequentialus needs to make some money fast to pay back a debt, so is selling an old family heirloom that just so happens to be a +X Whatever.

[KnotKnormal]

Usually in my campaigns the magic mart is all owned by the same company/person/dragon that is rarely seen. the employees are more like followers and thus are more then willing to give up the xp to the owner. Also i usually do a wait time, so if a player wants a "flaming sneaky bastard sword of doom with spiky bits" (quoting a player of mine), I tell them it will be a day or two till the weapon is ready. Usually the players are coming back anyway at that point and can pick up the weapon, other times they need to make a point to stop by that town again. One of my players actually paid extra to have it delivered and waiting at the manner where the party was staying at the time.

I also only put the magic marts in major cities where the business stands to make the most money. Also I personally don't like the idea of a one horse town having a magic item shop of your dreams.

This is just my take, to each their own.

[Dimers]

I don't hate MagicMart.

I do prefer games where the characters are awesome enough to function without magical doodads.

I prefer games where each thing that enters the characters' awareness is likely to be special and meaningful.

I prefer the idea the people imbue items with power through care or association, and that the resulting power is character-specific.

I strongly dislike people buying their way out of problems in the real world, and I don't want to reflect it in my time off.

I have a simple brain and would prefer, when I DM, not to have to keep track of everything that the party can do with minor magical items they've purchased over time, so that I can continue to grasp how to play their strengths and exploit their weaknesses. Heck, for that matter, I prefer short and simple character sheets just for neatness's sake.

I'm annoyed by the GitP assumption that any item in any book can be acquired with the right amount of money; it smacks of cheap rules-lawyering to insist on access to every listed option. However, I recognize that (a) that is rarely a problem in play and (b) that the forum HAS to assume only book materials for lack of in-depth familiarity with the specific DM and campaign.

I don't like that MagicMart fails to narrow the gap between tiers and can in fact increase it.

I don't like 3.5's borked economics in general, but regarding the MagicMart in particular, I don't like the intersection of economics and morality -- there are people willing to pay thousands or tens of thousands of gp value for a single magic item, when that money could improve so many lives instead. Or leaving behind the altruism issue, 30000gp could let someone retire in style for the rest of their long, long life, which means it's disconcerting and immersion-breaking to see some characters keep going after they're raised that level of money.

I prefer magic and enchantment to be traded in barter/services/entitlements/favors, not in coin, because it seems like it should not have an exact price across-the-board.

Lots to say, really. I'm fine with the idea of characters trading valuable things for magic, but it shouldn't be rulefast, undramatic, broken and bourgeois as the books make it sound.

[Harrow]

I, too, love Magic Marts. There are a few reasons why.

I abstract the buying. It's not a warehouse run by a 17th level wizard, it's the PCs going around to merchants, nobles, churches, and other adventurers looking for magic items.

People sell magic items to PCs because PCs are willing to pay Market Value, and it's only once in a lifetime you find a sucker both dumb and rich enough to pay full market value for something.

Merchants, nobles, and churches make lots and lots of money. The world is also a dangerous place, so magic items are being made on a pretty regular basis in any stable, civilized area.

Magic items are almost never destroyed. Once it's made, it'll be kicking around basically forever. Which means finding even the most obscure of items in a large enough settlement doesn't strain disbelief.

My larger settlements also tend to have small organizations of just about every obscure class. There aren't enough of them for them to have a real impact on the setting, but it does give you some people to talk to if you need some item for Incarnates or Binders.

Artificers exist.


But I also recognize that I like to play magic heavy games. As in, I tend to substitute the given feats on animal encounters for things like Shape Soulmeld. Which is often legal, but just doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

[jedipotter]

So, I ask, why would someone choose to run a 3.5e DnD game and at the same time reject the concept of a magic item shop?

There are a dozen or so ''must have'' magic items that players ''must have''. With a magic mart they will just buy the items the second they can afford them.

First off it is bad enough that like half the ''must have'' items are problematic, dysfunctional, broken, poorly made, or just total cheats.

Second, it takes away from the whole Quest idea. The character won't even bother to go on an adventure, when they can just go buy stuff at magic mart. So it is not ''lets slay the dragon for the Ring of Power'' and it more like ''lets go shopping'' (wow..exciting).

And third it takes away the sense of loss. Sure in a 'normal' game a character will never loose any items, but it could happen in 'other' games. But if a character does loose an item....they will just stop by the shop and buy another one.

[Dalebert]

A shop stocked full of items seems unrealistic to me. I imagine it more as wizards for hire to make items to order. You just have to ask the right people, put half of the money down up-front, etc. You might have to shop around a bit to find the right ones with the necessary prereqs.


Note that in PF, for magic weapons/armor and wondrous items, neither of these are needed. So these items are much easier to justify as being available.

Even 3.5 has suggestions for loot with built-in points (effectively x.p. for the purposes of making magic items). I believe they talk about it with Artificers. I do that in my game. For instance, a specific arm bone of a barghest radiates very faint magic after it dies. It can be used to reduce the x.p. cost of a wand of either conjuration or enchantment magic by 200 points. A successful knowledge(arcana) check or Craft Wands feat would allow a PC to know this. It also gives an easy way for a monster that wouldn't otherwise be hoarding treasure to have something of value, even if the PCs just sell it to someone else who wants to make magic items.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't hate MagicMart.I'm okay with a market for magic items. Magi-mart, your one stop shop for all your magical needs, rubs me the wrong way.


I do prefer games where the characters are awesome enough to function without magical doodads.That's.... doable if you understand the system well enough.


I prefer games where each thing that enters the characters' awareness is likely to be special and meaningful.You special snowflake you. I really need to settle on a color for snark.


I prefer the idea the people imbue items with power through care or association, and that the resulting power is character-specific.There're options for that. DMG2 gives an outline for allowing a character to imbue his items under special circumstances independent of the creation feats. There's also weapons of legacy, though non-custom legacies aren't very impressive.


I strongly dislike people buying their way out of problems in the real world, and I don't want to reflect it in my time off.What? That works on dragons and not much else. Most creatures are more interested in robbing, eating, or enslaving you than what you have to say. Buying good gear is buying a chance of success. You still have to use it well to not die, or worse.


I have a simple brain and would prefer, when I DM, not to have to keep track of everything that the party can do with minor magical items they've purchased over time, so that I can continue to grasp how to play their strengths and exploit their weaknesses. Heck, for that matter, I prefer short and simple character sheets just for neatness's sake. ....... I think you're using the wrong system. By its very nature 3.5 D&D is a complex beast. If you like simple you should probably shop around a little.


I'm annoyed by the GitP assumption that any item in any book can be acquired with the right amount of money; it smacks of cheap rules-lawyering to insist on access to every listed option. However, I recognize that (a) that is rarely a problem in play and (b) that the forum HAS to assume only book materials for lack of in-depth familiarity with the specific DM and campaign.Even in person I tend to assume that anything that's in the books the group has available are okay unless something in the item's description would suggest otherwise. They're generally used more to supplement and/or amplify a character's existing abilities than anything else anyway. The playground just assumes all books because between the lot of us all the books basically are available.


I don't like that MagicMart fails to narrow the gap between tiers and can in fact increase it.This is just plain backwards. You're going to have to explain to me how you got to this conclusion.


I don't like 3.5's borked economics in general, but regarding the MagicMart in particular, I don't like the intersection of economics and morality -- there are people willing to pay thousands or tens of thousands of gp value for a single magic item, when that money could improve so many lives instead. Or leaving behind the altruism issue, 30000gp could let someone retire in style for the rest of their long, long life, which means it's disconcerting and immersion-breaking to see some characters keep going after they're raised that level of money.You're projecting personal baggage onto the system here. Altruism is all to rare among people while there are plenty of selfish bastards and people who just don't give a damn out there. As for safety, only rich people climb mountains for fun and keeping up with the Joneses requires using the skills you've got. For a high level adventurer those skills involve doing dangerous crap while armed with gear that cost more than small towns.


I prefer magic and enchantment to be traded in barter/services/entitlements/favors, not in coin, because it seems like it should not have an exact price across-the-board.There's absolutely nothing wrong with using those other things in place of coin, but you're just removing the middle man. Being paid in valuable goods for services rendered is really only a little different from being paid in cash and using that cash to buy the valuable goods.


Lots to say, really. I'm fine with the idea of characters trading valuable things for magic, but it shouldn't be rulefast, undramatic, broken and bourgeois as the books make it sound.

Different strokes for different folks. Though I have to question "broken" there.

[Spuddles]

Given how stupendously over 9000 d&d is with magic, the absence of magic marts seems rather absurd.

Sure, your generic level 4 fighter will probably never find anything useful in south dirtfarmville while searching for macguffin #2045, but for casters above level 7 or so, there's a whole world of magic doodads out there.

[Tvtyrant]

Hate is an amazingly strong word for a tiny feature of a game of make believe...

I think magic marts work fine in some settings and badly in others. Magic mart in Eberron? Wonderful. Forgotten Realms? Horrible. Spelljammer/Planescape? Absolutely! Dark Sun? No.

My last campaign had a chain of magic shops owned by the Wizard civilization that rules humanity as a monopoly, and one other owned by an epic (for the campaign) wizard who had abandoned Paz and now made his home in a boom town where he experimented in making intelligent constructs using his sales money.

My next campaign is set in a quasi-traditional Norse mythology, and magic items are going to need to be made by the party or bartered off of gods, witches and dwarves.

[Emperor Tippy]

I love Magic Mart from both a fluff and crunch perspective.

Fluff wise magic mart isn't some dude sitting in a wizards tower or shop crafting items and then putting them out in the storefront of a city for anyone to wander in and purchase or steal.

Magic mart is really a transplanar trading network. Plenty of creatures have at will greater teleport. That makes everywhere on a single plane 6 seconds away. Many others have at will Plane Shift. That makes every plane 6 seconds away. Between Plane Shift and Greater Teleport you can be pretty much anywhere on any plane in less than 60 seconds.

So you go to the magic item factor in the local metropolis and say "This is what I want to buy or sell" and he uses his permanent telepathic bonds and planar travel capable agents to find out who else in the network has the item that you want or wants the item that you have. He's checking all of the planar metropolises, all of the major cities, etc. Once he gets a positive response the item is delivered or an agent of the actual purchaser shows up and the trade is done. The factor takes a percentage cut for arranging the deal (assuming that, as is likely, he didn't actually personally have the item you wanted on hand or personally purchase the item from you) and life goes on.

Trying to rob the factor is pointless as he keeps his wealth stored in the First Bank of Union and the only magic items that he keeps on hand are his own.

So that +5 Holy Avenger Longsword that you just bought? Well maybe you actually purchased that from a Demon Prince who had gotten it from killing a pesky paladin a few weeks ago.

[Ravens_cry]

Sounds like a very Sigil-esque setting that ,Tippy, though I am hardly surprised coming from you.:smallbiggrin:
I think what people dislike about magic mart is that is rarely how it works in fantasy stories. Magic items tend to be either found or gifted, not bartered and sold in markets. Personally, I like it in the right setting, as trade is the life blood of civilisation, and I have a liking for 'civilised' settings.

[Sith_Happens]

I've always just abstracted it as not being a literal Magic Mart so much as being able to reasonably find magical items in cities. In my games, you generally won't find anywhere that stockpiles magic items, but if a PC wants to get a +X Whatever, if it's within the wealth guidelines for the city it's assumed that, say, the Minor Noble Inconsequentialus needs to make some money fast to pay back a debt, so is selling an old family heirloom that just so happens to be a +X Whatever.

It should be noted that this is actually the default assumption in the relevant sections of the DMG.

I do like Tippy's Amazon.sla interpretation though.

[TuggyNE]

I don't entirely like magic marts, although I have no particular problem with commissioning items instead, and having a few relatively common items stocked in certain centers.

However, I'd prefer to cut to the heart of the problem and deal with the christmas tree effect instead, since if you solve that magic marts can fade into the background or, if desired, disappear entirely.


First off it is bad enough that like half the ''must have'' items are problematic, dysfunctional, broken, poorly made, or just total cheats.

Er, which ones would these be? Not sure what's wrong with cloaks of resistance or amulets of natural armor or rings of protection or ability score boosters or healing belts or amulets of translocation except the christmas tree effect, which isn't really their fault. Maybe +X weapons/armor/shields could be considered poorly designed, esp. since you don't always actually need them.


And third it takes away the sense of loss. Sure in a 'normal' game a character will never loose any items, but it could happen in 'other' games. But if a character does loose an item....they will just stop by the shop and buy another one.

For free, of course, and with no delay. Except in your games, because you don't tolerate cheaters. More seriously, WBL is a thing, and losing a substantial chunk of it is a real loss, even if it's replaceable. Similarly, having one's car stolen or house burn down is a pretty substantial loss, even if you have insurance and can buy a replacement within a month or two!

[cakellene]

I keep seeing christmas tree effect mentioned, what does that mean?

[Pickford]

It should be noted that this is actually the default assumption in the relevant sections of the DMG.

I do like Tippy's Amazon.sla interpretation though.

I prefer the abstraction. Those species with at-will teleportation and plane shifting have better things to do than traipse around the country haggling with filthy adventurers. (You know...the blood war and all that)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I keep seeing christmas tree effect mentioned, what does that mean?

It's baked into the system that characters are expected to have a number of magic items that boost their abilities. The number of these items increases with level until by 20 you've got so many sparkly bits of magic hanging off your character that he looks like a christmas tree. Or such is the perception.

More specifically it's a short-hand way of referring to the fact that high level characters have to have a number of magic items.

[Psyren]

Tippy's system is far too orderly and error free for my taste. I could easily see agents of Chaos (Demons and Slaadi certainly, possibly even Eladrin depending on who is buying what) wanting to gum up the works for the lulz. This would cause some items to either not be available at all or run into complications when it comes to delivery, teleportation or no teleportation. And that's before you get into transplanar thievery outfits like the followers of a larcenous deity, the whims of capricious beings like fey etc.

[Zanos]

I think magic marts work fine in some settings and badly in others. Magic mart in Eberron? Wonderful. Forgotten Realms? Horrible. Spelljammer/Planescape? Absolutely! Dark Sun? No.

How don't magic marts work in FR? I once had that settings magic-level described to me as "insane epic-level casters wander the world, pushing around wheelbarrows full of artifacts."


I abstract the buying. It's not a warehouse run by a 17th level wizard, it's the PCs going around to merchants, nobles, churches, and other adventurers looking for magic items.
Yeah, this is what the book actually advises DMs to do. The magic-mart that is a result of the rules is just an abstraction for spending time browsing various places.

Tippy's inter-planar trading system actually sounds rather neat. I might see if my DM likes it.

[Sith_Happens]

I keep seeing christmas tree effect mentioned, what does that mean?

It refers to the fact that if you put a typical mid-to-high-level character under Detect Magic or Arcane Sight, they'll have enough "glowy" bits (i.e.- magic items) on various parts of them so as to look like a Christmas tree.


Tippy's system is far too orderly and error free for my taste. I could easily see agents of Chaos (Demons and Slaadi certainly, possibly even Eladrin depending on who is buying what) wanting to gum up the works for the lulz. This would cause some items to either not be available at all or run into complications when it comes to delivery, teleportation or no teleportation. And that's before you get into transplanar thievery outfits like the followers of a larcenous deity, the whims of capricious beings like fey etc.

That's not a bug, it's a feature. Think of the plot hooks!:smallwink:

[cakellene]

That's not a bug, it's a feature.

Thanks a lot, now I have the urge to go play Everquest.

[georgie_leech]

How don't magic marts work in FR? I once had that settings magic-level described to me as "insane epic-level casters wander the world, pushing around wheelbarrows full of artifacts."


If nothing else, I still remember Baldur's Gate's Magic Mart, the appropriately titled Adventurer's Mart, where the shop owner was a retired adventurer selling all of the assorted knick knacks he'd collected over his career. He got around the whole "tempting target for thieves" thing by being a high level adventurer.

[Spuddles]

I keep seeing christmas tree effect mentioned, what does that mean?

All the magic on you causes you to glow like a xmas tree.


I prefer the abstraction. Those species with at-will teleportation and plane shifting have better things to do than traipse around the country haggling with filthy adventurers. (You know...the blood war and all that)

Magic items are immensely powerful. There are demons & devils of greed, entire races of powerful planefaring traders- the slaver neogi, the inscrutable mindflayrr, the mercantile... mercane. Trade with mortals is an excellent way to get access to things to round a 10,000 year old demonlord's repertoire.


Sounds like a very Sigil-esque setting that ,Tippy, though I am hardly surprised coming from you.:smallbiggrin:
I think what people dislike about magic mart is that is rarely how it works in fantasy stories. Magic items tend to be either found or gifted, not bartered and sold in markets. Personally, I like it in the right setting, as trade is the life blood of civilisation, and I have a liking for 'civilised' settings.

"The futute is already here- it's just unevenly distributed."

Right now, there are people who are only alive because their fleshy bits have been replaced with synthetics. Currently, there are back room deals between commerce and governments that will decide the fate of hundreds of thousands. Extremely powerful individuals hold launch codes that can kill billions. Amazon is looking to deliver goods via flying automated drones. Meanwhile a child is dying of a disease that has been cured only 1,000 miles away. Tribal warlords drive technicals in a battle for control of grazing habitat. Their 40 year old weapons were furnished by a third party representing a country that wishes to use the resources under those grazing lands for constructing main battle tanks.

At 13,000 feet in the Himalaya, a yak herder walks the same paths his ancestors walked for most of recorded history. Except today he isnt tending is yaks, he's looking for cordyceps. Ultimately the fungus will end up being purchased by an industrial tychoon in Hong Kong whose fortune was made by producing the parts that allows for tunneling 19 miles under the earth. The yak herder will retire to his tent tonight. It's a large, extremely heavy construction, made from yak wool. His family has had it for more than 10 generations.

When he talks to his brother on a phone charged by the sun, there will be a alight delay, as the signal will pass through a satellite above him and across a sea he has never seen.

It's entirely possible to have a coherent setting of ultra rich societies with miraculous technologies adjacent to slums and wilds and superstitious barbarians. We live in one.

[Psyren]

That's not a bug, it's a feature. Think of the plot hooks!:smallwink:

I'd say mine has more, since now you have hijacked and delayed shipments for the players to investigate, and all kinds of irregularities in which sinister agendas can hide. For instance, the PCs can end up embroiled in conflicts of interest - just think of the RP opportunities if an Inevitable hires the PCs to recover an Erinyes' stolen goods from a roguish Firre bard. Or a mindflayer hive is Diverting teleporting shipments to surreptitiously insert Puppeteers amongst the goods and conquer a city from within.

The point being that I don't think anything should run quite that smoothly.

[Tvtyrant]

How don't magic marts work in FR? I once had that settings magic-level described to me as "insane epic-level casters wander the world, pushing around wheelbarrows full of artifacts."


Tis true. The problem is that the epic level casters are alive and gain no benefit from selling their items, while there are dungeons every second step filled with dead epic caster's loot that is up for grabs. Netheril is the perfect example of why you wouldn't care about buying magic items and no one would sell them.

[Spuddles]

Tis true. The problem is that the epic level casters are alive and gain no benefit from selling their items, while there are dungeons every second step filled with dead epic caster's loot that is up for grabs. Netheril is the perfect example of why you wouldn't care about buying magic items and no one would sell them.

How is item optimization ever NOT going to happen? A barbarian is much better off selling his +6 casting item for a +4 barbarian item, and contrawise for a wizard.

[Kaeso]

I think the "Magic-Mart" concept works perfectly in both fluff and crunch.... as long as its limited to E6. In an E6 world, where the "power levels" are closer to that of the real world (with level 1 being your average schmuck and level 6 being close to legendary), the things you can buy then would neither break the game nor society. What would the "Magic-Mart" sell in E6? Some minor health potions (which in the world of DnD would be the equivalent to a modern first aid kit), a magic wand that allows you to fly, a scroll that makes you change your shape for 10 minutes etc. What would the effects be on society? They'd be rather minor. The wide availability of healing potions would probably greatly increase the average lifespan (Got influenza, syphilis or even the black plague? It's nothing a potion of cure disease won't help) of those who can afford it, and once in a while young prince Willy might be found flying around over daddy's castle, but it's not much more than that. The most profound changes would perhaps be certain battlefield tactics: soldiers would get themselves pumped up for battle with a potion of bear's strength, their general would sharpen his senses with a potion of owl's wisdom, dedicated healers would be running back and forth across their lines to heal soldiers who are about to fall, battlefield assassins armed with scrolls of invisibility would creep around and stealthily take out high priority targets but that's it. It's cool and changes a lot of how the stereotypical medieval society works, but doesn't make it obsolete.

Now compare this to the "Magic-Mart" in RAW. You can literally buy swords that can split mountains and scrolls containing death spells that make armies obsolete as long as you can cough up the money. Even if you assume that these scrolls would be far too expensive for most people, you still have to keep in mind that somebody is making and selling these scrolls, so there must be a market for it. Imagine a creepy real world analogy: the availability of such high power magical items would not be akin to Bill Gates being able to buy a nuke or even an arsenal of nukes, it would be more like Bill Gates being able to buy God.

But to be fair, 3.5e in its entirety falls flat on its bum when you start reaching the higher levels. I guess that's why I have a soft spot for E6.

[TuggyNE]

It's entirely possible to have a coherent setting of ultra rich societies with miraculous technologies adjacent to slums and wilds and superstitious barbarians. We live in one.

Respec', mon.

[Enguebert]

Here is how we handle it in our campaigns

There are magic shop who sells common minor magical items (potions, low level scroll, +1 weapon,...) and may have low to mid level items

(Basically, after each adventure, if players have cash, they send me a list of what they search and chance are
( 10.000 GP- Price)/100 = percentage of finding it (with malus if tjhey are not in capital)
So they have 90% of finding item of 1000 GP, 50% for an item of 5.000 GP and 0% for item of 10.000 GP or more


And from time to time (usually once every 5 levels), there is a Magic Festival where PC and NPC can sell powerful items and buy powerful items
The festival is organize by the guild of magicians (hey, you need strong protections) and usually have two parts : mundane market and high level market.
For high level market, you usually have all the big NPCs (or one of their emissary) : kings, guild masters, lich, dragons,... and there is an auction.
A good tip : don't outbid powerful evil monsters if you can't beat them or they will come and kill you to get the item later :smallsmile:

Also the Magic Festival is ALWAYS a scenario and expect some events (murder, theft, ...)

[Knaight]

For what it's worth, one of the implications of a Magic Mart is that somewhere in the world, there is a place where all of the necessities to save the world are located, but the people in that area have no interest in saving the world from something that's trying to destroy the world, and the thing that's trying to destroy the world has no interest in destroying or looting the place where all those necessities are located.
That's not an implication unless saving the world is already involved in the game - which need not be the case.


Personally, the main thing I disagree with here is the sentiment of 'if you're trying to do anything outside of D&D 3.5's core assumptions, you should use a different system'.

The thing I like most about D&D 3.5 is actually how flexible it is compared to other systems. If I want to run a gritty, low-magic game in 3.5, its quite possible to do - as long as I am aware of the potential pitfalls such as enemies with high DR and players taking casting classes. There are even supplements and replacement casting systems that directly play to this idea (e.g. Black Company d20).
I'm wondering what other systems you're looking at. There are certainly plenty which are more focused on something specific, but then there the generics (e.g. GURPS) which are far better once you leave the core areas that 3.x works in. For instance, no edition of D&D is a great system for cyberpunk.


Second, it takes away from the whole Quest idea. The character won't even bother to go on an adventure, when they can just go buy stuff at magic mart. So it is not ''lets slay the dragon for the Ring of Power'' and it more like ''lets go shopping'' (wow..exciting).

And third it takes away the sense of loss. Sure in a 'normal' game a character will never loose any items, but it could happen in 'other' games. But if a character does loose an item....they will just stop by the shop and buy another one.

It only takes away from the quest idea if the purpose of the quest was to get an item in the first place. There are plenty of other possibilities for quests and adventuring, and not much is really lost there.

As for the sense of loss, even if they replace the thing some resources are lost. An analogy was made upthread to a stolen car, where you could buy the exact same model, but you're still down a hefty chunk of cash. I'd also note that the sense of loss is another area where things that aren't items work better. As much could be done with a characters error destroying the good-will an NPC has towards them as with them losing an item. Possession of the item is merely something that the character likes and seeks to preserve within the setting, a broad category in which just about every entry has the potential for a sense of loss.

[Ravens_cry]

"The futute is already here- it's just unevenly distributed."

Right now, there are people who are only alive because their fleshy bits have been replaced with synthetics. Currently, there are back room deals between commerce and governments that will decide the fate of hundreds of thousands. Extremely powerful individuals hold launch codes that can kill billions. Amazon is looking to deliver goods via flying automated drones. Meanwhile a child is dying of a disease that has been cured only 1,000 miles away. Tribal warlords drive technicals in a battle for control of grazing habitat. Their 40 year old weapons were furnished by a third party representing a country that wishes to use the resources under those grazing lands for constructing main battle tanks.

At 13,000 feet in the Himalaya, a yak herder walks the same paths his ancestors walked for most of recorded history. Except today he isnt tending is yaks, he's looking for cordyceps. Ultimately the fungus will end up being purchased by an industrial tychoon in Hong Kong whose fortune was made by producing the parts that allows for tunneling 19 miles under the earth. The yak herder will retire to his tent tonight. It's a large, extremely heavy construction, made from yak wool. His family has had it for more than 10 generations.

When he talks to his brother on a phone charged by the sun, there will be a alight delay, as the signal will pass through a satellite above him and across a sea he has never seen.

It's entirely possible to have a coherent setting of ultra rich societies with miraculous technologies adjacent to slums and wilds and superstitious barbarians. We live in one.
What does that have to do with what I said? :smallconfused: Sorry, brain is a little tired as it's sleepy time for me, so maybe I will be able to puzzle that out in the morning.

[Hopeless]

That bit about the paladin sword made me wonder why wouldn't the fiend sell that sword off and then leak where it went so we have a small army of paladins' and clerics' hunting down the current wielder since the fiend modified the sword so they assume the current wielder and his friends were the ones who killed the former wielder of that sword after all unless that sword can speak for itself they're hardly going to believe their story after all!:smallbiggrin:

I've run a game where the players ran into a halfling merchant caravan selling magical items but I rolled randomly to see what they had rather than let them mention what items they wanted.

I can see healing potions being available but everything else should be either hard to find or quest specific since it makes finding that +1 sword or the +1 ring of protection they find less interesting.

My cleric had an effective +2 weapon a +1 bastard sword of sure striking and I loved that weapon imagine my disgust that they foisted my character with a +3 intelligent longsword... in that game both the weapon mentioned at the start of this paragraph and the +1 suit of full plate had to be bought in Waterdeep so magic mart's are important.

[Waker]

awa and to a degree Dimer covered some of my further opinions on the matter.
One thing that people overlook is that crafting magic items takes a long time. The most bog simple magic weapon takes two solid days of work. But as you get to the higher levels, you soon start seeing the time increase to weeks and months. Now I realize that some of you will respond with comments like how many crafting projects in real life take a great deal of time, but you are overlooking two other critical points.
1. Crafting requires XP. You are literally draining away your life in order to craft magic items. That is quite the investment for some gold. Not to mention the question of where said experience comes from. If the mage in question is treating this as a business, when does he have the time to adventure and earn xp? I rather doubt he earns much xp tending to a shop.
2. Being a mage is not analogous to any profession in the real world. If you tick off your mechanic, he can't fry you with a look. Mages of all stripes command tremendous powers and the idea that they would waste time trying to amass money doing crafting is somewhat questionable. They could be doing nearly anything else from adventuring, providing a service (as opposed to goods) such as teleporting or Boccob knows what else.

[Vhaidara]

If nothing else, I still remember Baldur's Gate's Magic Mart, the appropriately titled Adventurer's Mart, where the shop owner was a retired adventurer selling all of the assorted knick knacks he'd collected over his career. He got around the whole "tempting target for thieves" thing by being a high level adventurer.

"Ribald Bartman, at your service."

I second this. In my experience, high power magic marts are protected by the supplier. My DMs tend to enjoy NPCs who use golems as guards.

Another trick if having your own magic mart. I have a fellow player who is playing a crafter (we have an XP to gold conversion to make it viable), and so we really just sell what we don't need and then he makes any "standard" gear that we need.

Our DM got around this by having each of us come up with a more powerful type of item, beyond the normal scope of items. For example, one player is trying to assemble a set, and my warlock is searching for my own creation, the Ioun Gemstones (like Ioun Stones, but the bonuses get bigger the more of them you have. So the +Ability ones each give +1, but when you have all 6, you have +6 unslotted enhancement to all abilities).

[Pickford]

Magic items are immensely powerful. There are demons & devils of greed, entire races of powerful planefaring traders- the slaver neogi, the inscrutable mindflayrr, the mercantile... mercane. Trade with mortals is an excellent way to get access to things to round a 10,000 year old demonlord's repertoire.

Two problems I still see here:

1) Why would a greedy person share? Why not just trade 'for' magic items? Any devil who sells something magical is implicitly selling something that can harm themselves. Why would a devil value gold over magical weaponry?

2) Dealing with fiends is an evil act, so that rules out 1/3 of the population from ever really doing it. Indeed, this 1/3 includes all Paladins and good Clerics some of whom would make it their mission in life to destroy the fiends and bring justice to those wicked enough to have dealings with them. (i.e. Any given magic mart run by evil is equally likely to become a sudden combat from a party of do gooders)

[Faily]

"Magic Marts" work perfectly well as long as one does not assume it's a free for all, at will shopping place, where the security is equal to that of Wal-mart. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making magic items into something that must be custom-ordered, so PCs must wait a week or so to upgrade their armor, weapons, or get that new stat-item.

Tippy's description works very well for a mage who decided "you know what, I spent so much of my life going on dangerous quests that nearly cost me my life, all for more riches and powers. How about I just use the power I have now to amass my own wealth by procuring and selling magic items? I'm getting too old for dungeon-crawling anyways... the damp air in the tunnels are bad for my joints, and I hate sleeping in the wilderness. Yeah, this sounds like a much better way of living a wealthy life in my retirement age."
Said mage will of course make sure to store whatever items he has in a safe place so no one can just steal them. Duh. And he might higher some low-level mages who thought it would be really cool to work with a legendary mage, and maybe learn a few things from him before they decide to go on adventuring (or they actually wanted to learn magic to live a comfortable life too). Of course, they also sell magical services, and one can order a magic item to be made. Magical services cost what the book says (money earned to simply cast a 3rd level or 5th level spell that didn't require more of you than just your spell slot for that day), and magic item orders take time. Hey, suicidal people are willing to pay crazy sums for this anyway!

Think of just how much magic items adventurers drop off too that they won't need. Like that +1 Dire Flail the evil cleric they faced last session used... none of the PCs want it, so they sell it to the Mage's Magic Shoppe. For half price. And later on, some other guy will wander along and buy said +1 Dire Flail... for full market price.

Could these mages use their magic for other things, like helping poorer countries, fight epidemics, etc? Sure they could. But they're more interested in themselves or helping those around them, and their own country/community/city. Just like our society today. The post today about "the future is already here, it's just unevenly distributed" sums up perfectly that even our own society today is unbalanced. I mean, just look at us gamers who spend lots of money on books, miniatures, dice, console games, games to play on said consoles, upgrading our PCs to play new MMOs, etcc, while huge parts of the world don't have clean water, supermarkets, don't even know what an MMO is, and long-distance communication is a rare thing (there's maybe one in the village with a phone).

[Chronos]

I have two main problems with the idea of Magic Mart. One is the security issue, already mentioned by others in enough detail. The other is that it it severely hampers some classic images.

Have you ever worked out the actual size of the hoard you get from a dragon, in 3.5? You couldn't make a bed for a human from that much gold, much less for a gargantuan mountain of armored scales and flame. But the dragon's hoard has to be that small, because money is power. In second edition, dragons' hoards looked like Smaug's, and if you ever defeated one, you could get anything money could buy... But it didn't unbalance the game, because by that point, most of what you wanted money couldn't buy.

[Emperor Tippy]

1) Crafting never requires more than 500 XP. Anyone or anything that is going to craft even remotely often is going to buy a Thought Bottle.

The only time you would be crafting without using one is when you are using an alternative XP source (Ambrosia, Distilled Pain, Dark Craft XP, mind slaves + Transference, etc.).

2) Crafting can and should be done (assuming you aren't just getting magic items Wished into existence) on fast time demiplanes. Just because it took the creator a year to build a given item doesn't mean that a year passed for the rest of the multiverse.

3) The planes are huge and magic items tend to survive a very long time. Just because there are only a dozen people on your planet that can build a given item doesn't matter much when the population of the 'verse as a whole is a hundred billion times larger than the population of your planet.

4) Civilizations can and do upon occasion produce artifact level items that can spit out other magic items. You can make an auto-rest Wish trap that can spit out 14,400 Portable Holes every day. And has been doing that for ten thousand years. Sure, building an item like that is a massive working that pretty much has to be done with alternative crafting sources and would take a high level wizard decades of constant work to build while having a price tag large enough to beggar Midas but such items can be and are produced.

So if you can hit up Sigil, Union, or the City of Brass then yeah, you can find someone willing to sell you any magic item that you can imagine (and even more that you probably never even thought of). Of course, nice items don't sell for something as droll as gold. No this sword with a 200,000 GP price tag that you want can't be purchased for two tons of gold (or even a hundred million tons). The souls of a dozen Pit Fiends on the other hand is a fair trade (or the souls of a thousand humans). Or maybe just a favor owed. Or a job done.

Gold might be the medium of exchange for the rank and file of the world but once the price is over 25,000 GP or so on the higher side its simply meaningless. And by level 15+ gold is basically worthless. It's not even useful as a medium of exchange because any 17th level Wizard (or anything that can get XP free Wish's) can produce more gold in a week than real life humanity has gathered in the entirety of human history.

Psion's are in some ways worse as a level 11 Psion can technically produce a cubic foot of pure gold for free every single round if he wants to. This actually applies to every single non magical item or material.

This is one reason that in my games I use, at the planar level, the CHIT (stands for Credit of His Imperial Tippyness). Produced in the Infinite City (the personal city and home of High Archmage Tippy and ever expanding) through mostly unknown means (Ice Assassin traps as each chit is an Ice Assassin Aleax) the chit is indestructible, virtually impossible to forge, utterly worthless for pretty much anything but a medium of exchange, and has steady and even inflation (exactly 1.44 million are produced and randomly distributed across the current population of the Infinite City on a daily basis). It's been the standard planar currency for longer than most gods have been alive and you can actually purchase really valuable items in it (what do you know, it just so happens to match the prices in the DMG exactly).

[Pickford]

(Ice Assassin traps as each chit is an Ice Assassin Aleax)

Given that there can be only one Aleax, this would be, presumably, impossible, as any attempt to create another Aleax (even an ice assassin one for which it's also impossible to have the parts) would auto-fail.

[Pokelord2]

I had a magic mart in a game I ran once called 'Ebans World' (meant to sound like Ebay). Nowadays I know more about how crafting magic items work and it does seem less feasible. I want high level PCs to be able to easily acquire magic items (especially lower level magic items like potions) which is why I'm always looking for a way to create a magic mart in-game.

The next magic mart I have would likely be run by a powerful devil with enough levels in warlock to make anything. His contracts with his warlock and blackguard minions require them to send him a certain amount of gold (or magic item equivilant) monthly (and a soul here and there). They send him the money via ring gates. If they fail to meet the quota monthly, he sends a bruiser (named Brutus) to take all their stuff and if their stuff still doesn't meet the quota (down to the last damn copper) then Brutus brings the guy back and the devil locks him down and uses him to fuel and experience needed to make stuff. He has a business relationship with a cartel of psions, who he commissions for the psionic stuff. Of course, all these guys are lawful evil but if you got a problem with that (some paladins)... there's Brutus, the devil, the psion cartel (if they're there), any contracted warlocks or blackguards who are around for guard duty, and other adventurers that are on the scene (who are promised a 10% discount if they help beat the hell out of you).:smallamused:

I also have a friend who lets you substitute gold (in addition to the normal gold costs) in place of experience, but my magic mart seems to work out pretty well.

[Emperor Tippy]

Given that there can be only one Aleax, this would be, presumably, impossible, as any attempt to create another Aleax (even an ice assassin one for which it's also impossible to have the parts) would auto-fail.

1) You don't need any parts to make an Ice Assassin.
2) Just because you can't harm a given creature doesn't mean that you can't get parts from it.
3) You are pretty much totally incorrect. While you can't make multiple Aleax's of the same individual, you aren't doing so. You are making Ice Assassin's which have the exact same abilities as the creature in question but is not the creature in question and the Aleax template includes no ability that precludes the existence of multiple Ice Assassins.

[Pickford]

1) You don't need any parts to make an Ice Assassin.
2) Just because you can't harm a given creature doesn't mean that you can't get parts from it.
3) You are pretty much totally incorrect. While you can't make multiple Aleax's of the same individual, you aren't doing so. You are making Ice Assassin's which have the exact same abilities as the creature in question but is not the creature in question and the Aleax template includes no ability that precludes the existence of multiple Ice Assassins.

1) Wait, what?


This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated. Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed. In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000gp.

If you don't have the appropriate ice statue containing part of an aleax and assuming you had the eschew materials feat you could cast the spell...but it would still fizzle as the spell actually has to be cast on an ice statue of an aleax containing part of an aleax, which wouldn't be present.

2) I thought you just claimed you don't need the parts? Which is it?

3) Dunno about that. First off, Ice Assassin creates a duplicate of an existing creature. If the Aleax doesn't exist, it can't be created, ipso facto, and they do not exist until the deity creates them (which means you're already in combat). Secondly, it's a living breathing creature. Aleaxes are constructs, they neither live nor breathe, so it's an invalid target for that reason too. Thirdly, as Aleax is an inherited template you can't actually make, for example, an ice assassin aleax tippy, only an ice assassin tippy.

So you're incorrect on all counts.

[Bronk]

The sale of magic items in my games are a mix of small scale and large scale... Your average run of the mill magic stall stocks mostly low level items and a few higher level items and are staffed by or are near to protections equivalent to mid level adventurers. Higher level items can be ordered, and eventually they may refer you to higher level, more selective and secretive sellers who are more directly hooked into the extra planar magic trade.

There is adventure to be had at every level...

[TheDarkSaint]

I'm turned off by Magic Marts for several reasons.

1. Thematically, they don't work for me. I like gritty, small hamlet, vast wilderness, low tech (early middle ages) type games. Much has been lost from the time before and the world is more dangerous. Mages, Sorcerers and Artificers are rare. It just wouldn't make sense.

2. My PC's focus turns to getting that stat boosting equipment. When I last played a wizard, I had a whole list of things that I wanted to buy or create. I went adventuring to buy/make this stuff. I traveled to the City of Brass to get this stuff. My point is, the stuff was so important to save DC's, saving throws and other stuff that it was my primary focus, not whatever the story might be. It felt like...D&D..the quest for stuff. I am unhappy with a rule set that mandates certain eq to advance past a certain level.

3. Like what Tippy said about economics, but in a different sense.
Take Quaals Feather Token (oak tree). For a measly 400gp, you get a trinket that creates...an oak tree. I have no idea if it is reusable, but I'm thinking for 400gp, it's a one shot thing.

According to the PhB, 400gp is more than a decade worth of wages to a non-trained hireling. It's 8lbs of gold. It's enough money to buy 8 wagons and 16 donkeys with spare change. I could outfit 10 men in padded armor and light crossbows with plenty of ammo. With 400 gp, I could live like royalty for a month, eating banquet style dinners and sleeping in the finest hotels.

All for the same cost of one token that can turn into a tree. The lowest stat boost of +2 is 4,000 gp. With that, I could buy a town. I could buy a keelboat, capable of holding 50 tons of cargo with a crew of 18 and start my own business.

Anyone trying to run a Magic Mart in a world economy established by D&D would go broke. The only people that could afford to buy anything would be murderhobos (a rather narrow, niche market that could dry up at any time) or kingdoms who might find it simply easier to put a mage on the bank role and get the items at cost (which is still exhorbant would probably be better spent on arming the army. Maybe an item or two for the king or ultra high ranking noble/general/ect)

I think Magic Mart works great where magic has become the norm and is considered "science" such as Eberron or the Tippyverse.

[Emperor Tippy]

1) Wait, what?
Psion has it as a power known via an Epic Spell to Power Erudite. Used via a Scroll created with Wish. Used by a caster with Ignore Material Components. Used as a Spell Like Ability or Supernatural Ability.

Then you have Eschew Materials and simply pulling it out of a spell component pouch (which technically works).


If you don't have the appropriate ice statue containing part of an aleax and assuming you had the eschew materials feat you could cast the spell...but it would still fizzle as the spell actually has to be cast on an ice statue of an aleax containing part of an aleax, which wouldn't be present.
Except that per RAW it doesn't.


2) I thought you just claimed you don't need the parts? Which is it?
Both. You don't actually need them and if you are using one of the methods where you do need them then you can still get them (just get the Aleax to spit, for example).


3) Dunno about that. First off, Ice Assassin creates a duplicate of an existing creature. If the Aleax doesn't exist, it can't be created, ipso facto, and they do not exist until the deity creates them (which means you're already in combat). Secondly, it's a living breathing creature. Aleaxes are constructs, they neither live nor breathe, so it's an invalid target for that reason too. Thirdly, as Aleax is an inherited template you can't actually make, for example, an ice assassin aleax tippy, only an ice assassin tippy.

So you're incorrect on all counts.

This is all pretty much totally rules wrong.

[NichG]

I'm wondering what other systems you're looking at. There are certainly plenty which are more focused on something specific, but then there the generics (e.g. GURPS) which are far better once you leave the core areas that 3.x works in. For instance, no edition of D&D is a great system for cyberpunk.

I think it wouldn't be too hard to do cyberpunk in D&D. There are some nice things in Modern Arcana that you could refluff as hacking abilities, etc.

With D&D, there are some big advantages that are not to be waved off so easily, even if it means doing a from-the-ground-up rewrite of the mechanics to run what you want (and honestly, thats not actually all that hard to do). You're going to have a lot of player familiarity with the ideas of D&D, and a large player base to pull from compared to using a specialized system.

Also, D&D has the advantage that its insanely mechanically complex. Yes, this is an advantage. It basically means that when you sweep away things to create your classes for cyberpunk D&D or whatever, you have lots of examples of different kinds of mechanical interactions/etc that can be used to make your new stuff feel unique by taking bits and pieces from classes/etc you liked. Since psionics feels different than Vancian casting feels different than Tome of Battle feels different than Incarnum, you have a very big palette to work with. There are also scads of mechanical 'ideas' you can work with in the D&D framework because of the large number of hooks the system provides you.

From the generic systems I've seen at least, they seem to suffer from a particular design flaw - they try to make a small set of universal core mechanics that can apply equally well to a wide range of different character archetypes. But the thing is, its not really good if the jet fighter pilot and spellcaster feel the same to play - they really should feel different.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sith_Happens
I do like Tippy's Amazon.sla interpretation though.

Hilarious. But shouldn't that be Amazon.sgl?

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Psyren
Tippy's system is far too orderly and error free for my taste.

Indeed, but as mentioned, it does open up some great story opportunities.

It also assumes an ancient, stable, far-reaching civilization, or set of civilizations, with enough knowledge of each other to conduct orderly and generally error-free transactions. There would also need to be some enforcement mechanism, which I don't think was addressed. It's a great concept, but relies on a great many assumptions for it to be feasible.


Originally Posted by Spuddles
It's entirely possible to have a coherent setting of ultra rich societies with miraculous technologies adjacent to slums and wilds and superstitious barbarians. We live in one.

And sadly, all too often the slums are quite literally in the shadows of the ultra-rich, sometimes only a brief walk from gleaming towers to mud-floored huts.


Originally Posted by Faily
...just look at us gamers who spend lots of money on books, miniatures, dice, console games, games to play on said consoles, upgrading our PCs to play new MMOs, etcc, while huge parts of the world don't have clean water, supermarkets, don't even know what an MMO is, and long-distance communication is a rare thing (there's maybe one in the village with a phone).

All very true, and often wretchedly and tragically so; but the penetration of technology can surprise you. Even in extremely remote and underdeveloped areas, cell phones can be common, and whoever has a phone charger can make money on the side from people who will come from miles around to recharge their phones.

And even on remote tropical rivers, where there are no roads or powerlines and people rely on small-scale agriculture, sometimes you'll come around the bend and see a small house with a satellite dish for the TV. Technology makes strange inroads, and people have their own priorities. (Especially in a nation utterly devoted to soccer.)

[Brookshw]

I think it wouldn't be too hard to do cyberpunk in D&D. There are some nice things in Modern Arcana that you could refluff as hacking abilities, etc.

With D&D, there are some big advantages that are not to be waved off so easily, even if it means doing a from-the-ground-up rewrite of the mechanics to run what you want (and honestly, thats not actually all that hard to do). You're going to have a lot of player familiarity with the ideas of D&D, and a large player base to pull from compared to using a specialized system.

Also, D&D has the advantage that its insanely mechanically complex. Yes, this is an advantage. It basically means that when you sweep away things to create your classes for cyberpunk D&D or whatever, you have lots of examples of different kinds of mechanical interactions/etc that can be used to make your new stuff feel unique by taking bits and pieces from classes/etc you liked. Since psionics feels different than Vancian casting feels different than Tome of Battle feels different than Incarnum, you have a very big palette to work with. There are also scads of mechanical 'ideas' you can work with in the D&D framework because of the large number of hooks the system provides you.

From the generic systems I've seen at least, they seem to suffer from a particular design flaw - they try to make a small set of universal core mechanics that can apply equally well to a wide range of different character archetypes. But the thing is, its not really good if the jet fighter pilot and spellcaster feel the same to play - they really should feel different.

Though were off-topic here I agree that the d20 mechanics can support just about anything you want to run. As to cyberpunk the Future book adds rules for cybernetics and many other useful things to flush out your world. If you wanted to do Fallout Modern/Future have some useful stuff or grab Exodus. There's quite a bit of versatility really.

[Incanur]

3.x economics generally make no sense if seriously contemplated. While I'm not necessarily opposed to magic marts if running 3.x, it's annoying how the availability of better and better gear at a higher and higher price discourages the PCs from actually acting like they're rich. After winning the dragon's hoard, the rational adventure quickly converts all that treasure into stat bonus, extra spells, a sharper sword, etc. Each night out on the town means worse equipment and thus lower odds of survival. Limiting the ability to convert gold into personal power changes this dynamic; in that sense it comes recommended. On the other hand, 3.x requires magic marts or something similar to function properly.

[lytokk]

I don't think I've ever actually ran in a game where Magic Marts exist. It's always been finding treasure being the only way to obtain magic items. Games I've played in and ran have always had semi random treasure. Example, if I rolled out a heavy armor with magical properties, and no one in the party actually was proficient in heavy armor, I'd change it to a type that someone in the party could actually benefit from.

If a player tells me they're looking for something specific (bag of holding for a low str character) I may sacrifice one of the randomly rolled items that would clearly benefit them and put that bag in the place, so long as the gp cost is close.

Potions are about the only readily available magic items, more than likely since I count them as alchemical items, but thats more of a carry over from playing too many MMO's

[jedipotter]

Er, which ones would these be?

Not important. The problem is that the players think they can just buy an infinite amount of them.

[COLOR="Blue"] More seriously, WBL is a thing, and losing a substantial chunk of it is a real loss, even if it's replaceable. [/QUOTE]

Sure WBL is a ''thing'', but it does not say ''a character must have item X or Y to be playable'' and it does not say ''a character must have item X every second of game time''.


It only takes away from the quest idea if the purpose of the quest was to get an item in the first place. There are plenty of other possibilities for quests and adventuring, and not much is really lost there.

Well, greed is a powerful motivator. Sure if you have spectacular role players they will get all into the ''save the princess'' plot, but all players will bend over backwards for loot.

[ryu]

Well, greed is a powerful motivator. Sure if you have spectacular role players they will get all into the ''save the princess'' plot, but all players will bend over backwards for loot.

Which remains true when loot is to be converted into money, which is then converted into the loot they want. Well that or the just is money to begin with.

[Gnaeus]

I don't mind players being able to buy items at all. I use MM's in my game. I think they are beneficial for balance.

My only real problem is the way it turns rare magic items acquired by PCs into vendor trash. For example, I am running an X-crawl game. The players went through a part of the crawl that was Star Wars themed. I really wanted to reward them with a Brilliant Energy weapon (for a light saber). One PC was all "Awesome! I want a light saber!". The prevailing argument was that that was ridiculous because Brilliant Energy is a +5 quality so it is worth 50,000 gold, and any light sabers would be immediately sold. Now, the item itself was not game breaking in our game at all in any way. the 50k gold, otoh, was problematic. So I can't give out rare loot without someone whipping out a calculator (and its X-Crawl, so the PC can literally whip out a calculator in character) and deriving its street value. This makes me sad.

[Thurbane]

My dislike for Magic Mart's is basically down to two things:

*) A stubborn carryover from my AD&D days where the DMG specifically called out that having them in a game was a bad idea (or did it just flat out say they didn't exist? Can't remember for sure).

*) My group gets preciously little time to play. We play on a more-or-less weekly basis, and if we are really lucky a session goes for about 4 hours. Usually closer to 3, once you include people running late due to real life commitments, general chit chat when we first arrive etc. I have seen far too many whole sessions "lost" on magical shopping trips. I want to heroically fight monsters, not do the D&D world equivalent of walking around a supermarket.

[Chronos]

It's important to remember that Emperor Tippy isn't actually playing the same game we are. The game he's playing may have some superficial similarities to the one we play, but the underlying rules are very different. Knowing some but not all of those rules (and I think Tippy himself is the only person on this board that knows all of them) is bound to make his game look nonsensical.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't mind players being able to buy items at all. I use MM's in my game. I think they are beneficial for balance.

My only real problem is the way it turns rare magic items acquired by PCs into vendor trash. For example, I am running an X-crawl game. The players went through a part of the crawl that was Star Wars themed. I really wanted to reward them with a Brilliant Energy weapon (for a light saber). One PC was all "Awesome! I want a light saber!". The prevailing argument was that that was ridiculous because Brilliant Energy is a +5 quality so it is worth 50,000 gold, and any light sabers would be immediately sold. Now, the item itself was not game breaking in our game at all in any way. the 50k gold, otoh, was problematic. So I can't give out rare loot without someone whipping out a calculator (and its X-Crawl, so the PC can literally whip out a calculator in character) and deriving its street value. This makes me sad.

*cough* 70,000 *cough*

Sorry, couldn't help myself. The minimal cost for a brilliant energy weapon is as a +6 weapon (+1 brilliant energy). That's 72,000gp, 2000 of which accounts for the +1 and the other 70k for brilliant energy. It goes up from there if other enhancements are on the weapon before brilliant energy.

[Talya]

3.5 DnD operates under the assumption that players are going to have a certain amount of purchased magic improving their murder-hoboing abilities, and, as it has been pointed out many times before, the system tends to break down when that assumption is incorrect, particularly for classes that already have issues.

I believe D&D was actually designed under the assumption that most people would be starting at level 1, that loot would be organicly rolled and that the DM would keep careful reign on what magical items people could outright purchase. Player crafters would be hobbled by the experience cost, and reluctant to customize everyone's gear to their preference, and overall, magic would still be rare and feel magical.

Of course, they also expected wizards to always be casting spells like fireball, clerics would be healing, and fighters would be the party workhorses. We know how well that worked...

In reality, people tend to start between levels 4 and 8, people buy whatever they want with WBL, and crafters realize "Experience is a river" and that it's impossible to fall that far behind the party with crafting, the Wizard is Batman, clerics are ClericZilla, and fighters are a 1-2 level dip.

It's worth noting that there are generic rules in the FRCS for the ability to find magical items in shops... Waterdeep notwithstanding, the FRCS doesn't actually have Ye Olde Magick-Marte.

[MukkTB]

Magic Mart certainly makes sense at the lower level. Its not inconceivable that a noble might have an extra +1 sword he wants to pawn off, that a mage might make some cheapo items for profit, or that a small shop might sell these things with the appropriate protection. An E6 Magic Mart fits in the world perfectly well.

Where it gets silly is when the items crossing the market are higher level than anyone in the city the market is in. If there are +5 flaming longswords on the market then it doesn't make sense if there isn't anyone around who could afford them. It gets really ridiculous when the magic mart is more heavily defended than the palace in a kind of offhand way.

So if the biggest badass in the kingdom is level 7 then a magic mart beyond basic stuff only makes sense as some kind of extraplanar outlet store from somewhere more prosperous. Really good native magic marts that can supply high level adventurers should only exist in uber metropolises like the planar hubs described by Tippy.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Chronos
It's important to remember that Emperor Tippy isn't actually playing the same game we are. The game he's playing may have some superficial similarities to the one we play, but the underlying rules are very different.

Different rules--or different assumptions?

I've only rarely glanced at the mad, mad world of Tippyness, but it seems to rely on a tremendous suite of assumptions, and countless aspects of the standard rules pushed to their logical extreme, and far beyond.

Very fun to think about--at least in limited doses--but as you suggest, it seems to lie in some other realm altogether.

[cakellene]

I don't mind players being able to buy items at all. I use MM's in my game. I think they are beneficial for balance.

My only real problem is the way it turns rare magic items acquired by PCs into vendor trash. For example, I am running an X-crawl game. The players went through a part of the crawl that was Star Wars themed. I really wanted to reward them with a Brilliant Energy weapon (for a light saber). One PC was all "Awesome! I want a light saber!". The prevailing argument was that that was ridiculous because Brilliant Energy is a +5 quality so it is worth 50,000 gold, and any light sabers would be immediately sold. Now, the item itself was not game breaking in our game at all in any way. the 50k gold, otoh, was problematic. So I can't give out rare loot without someone whipping out a calculator (and its X-Crawl, so the PC can literally whip out a calculator in character) and deriving its street value. This makes me sad.

What I read from this is that you and your players have different expectations of the parameters of the game and how gear should be acquired.

[Suddo]

I always liked if you have a magic item you want ask and I'll see if I can fit it in. So that way your Longsword Weapon Master Fighter doesn't keep running into off type weapons.

[Sith_Happens]

I'd say mine has more, since now you have hijacked and delayed shipments for the players to investigate, and all kinds of irregularities in which sinister agendas can hide. For instance, the PCs can end up embroiled in conflicts of interest - just think of the RP opportunities if an Inevitable hires the PCs to recover an Erinyes' stolen goods from a roguish Firre bard. Or a mindflayer hive is Diverting teleporting shipments to surreptitiously insert Puppeteers amongst the goods and conquer a city from within.

The point being that I don't think anything should run quite that smoothly.

The inevitability of spanners in the works is the "bug" to which I was referring, actually. Heck, "Interplanar Shopping Network vs. the Chaotic subtype" could easily be the basis for an entire campaign.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sith_Happens
Heck, "Interplanar Shopping Network vs. the Chaotic subtype" could easily be the basis for an entire campaign.

Didn't Robert Asprin write some novels about that?

:smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

It's important to remember that Emperor Tippy isn't actually playing the same game we are. The game he's playing may have some superficial similarities to the one we play, but the underlying rules are very different. Knowing some but not all of those rules (and I think Tippy himself is the only person on this board that knows all of them) is bound to make his game look nonsensical.

Hey now, I rarely talk about my house rules and variant campaigns. On here I generally only talk about my my mostly straight RAW (with a few tiny bits of RAI for things like drowning and the like) games. This is because I've played before with house rule and setting "tweaks" that amount to pretty much total rewrites of the system (I have an entire rule suite for playing item less games, as just one example).

Where I differ from most other people around here is that I generally toss any preconceptions about what the world should be like out the window and then build the world and setting based on what it would likely be with the game rules applied while choosing the interpretations that still allow for all of the standard fare.

At lower and even mid levels (up to about ECL 8-10) the only real difference from the norm is that I basically DM and play on hardcore mode. It's still very much the same game as the vanilla 3.5 settings and all of the standard stuff still works, all that differs is the difficulty level (think Tuckers Kobolds everywhere).

Above that point though you start playing in the big leagues. You are dealing with demons, devils, dragons, Mind Flayers, etc. Creatures who often live for hundreds (or thousands) of years, have natural intelligence scores higher than the best real life human who has ever lived, have enough personal power just from racial abilities to wipe out standard vanilla D&D armies, etc. At this level you either die very fast to enemies who do little things like track you down on the Ethereal Plane and push over a peon with a readied action to smash a portable hole and bag of holding together right next to you. If you haven't prepared for that kind of thing then well, you are dead. When you are level 20 I will play the world using pretty much every RAW trick short of Pun-Pun against you. At this point if you want an epic defeat scene then you need to make your defenses good enough that your enemies can't just Wish an Ice Assassin of a Great Wyrm Dragon with 30 Craft Contigent metamagiced Orb of X's on it that has been True Mindswitched into a fine sized Thinaun Dagger into your stomach and then back to their hand with your soul now in it. Otherwise you just blow up as your body takes 30,000 points of damage from all energy types that gets around Fire and Cold immunities.

[TuggyNE]

Not important. The problem is that the players think they can just buy an infinite amount of them.

Uh-huh. Sure. Doesn't matter which ones you think are broken, of course, because referring to specific things you're criticizing is just so passe.

Seriously, who would buy more than one of just about any of the things I mentioned?


Sure WBL is a ''thing'', but it does not say ''a character must have item X or Y to be playable'' and it does not say ''a character must have item X every second of game time''.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was, if you stick with WBL, or even just treasure tables, the players have sharply limited resources and can't afford to just buy whatever random stuff they want, and each loss hurts them. You argued that losing equipment is meaningless if it can be replaced with gold, but that's clearly not the case.

[Spuddles]

Two problems I still see here:

1) Why would a greedy person share? Why not just trade 'for' magic items? Any devil who sells something magical is implicitly selling something that can harm themselves. Why would a devil value gold over magical weaponry?

2) Dealing with fiends is an evil act, so that rules out 1/3 of the population from ever really doing it. Indeed, this 1/3 includes all Paladins and good Clerics some of whom would make it their mission in life to destroy the fiends and bring justice to those wicked enough to have dealings with them. (i.e. Any given magic mart run by evil is equally likely to become a sudden combat from a party of do gooders)

1) creatures making suboptimal decisions like that would ultimately get pushed out by ruthless mercantile classes who recognize that wealth is power and refusing to trade is nubbery of the highest order

2) and that's why most large churches would have secondary, or perhaps evn primary functions, as traders of magical goods

[Heliomance]

This is one reason that in my games I use, at the planar level, the CHIT (stands for Credit of His Imperial Tippyness). Produced in the Infinite City (the personal city and home of High Archmage Tippy and ever expanding) through mostly unknown means (Ice Assassin traps as each chit is an Ice Assassin Aleax) the chit is indestructible, virtually impossible to forge, utterly worthless for pretty much anything but a medium of exchange, and has steady and even inflation (exactly 1.44 million are produced and randomly distributed across the current population of the Infinite City on a daily basis). It's been the standard planar currency for longer than most gods have been alive and you can actually purchase really valuable items in it (what do you know, it just so happens to match the prices in the DMG exactly).

I have two problems with this. Firstly, I fail to comprehend how an Ice Assassin can possibly serve as a useful token of exchange, due to the fact that it is both animate and (generally, though I grant that the proper target would negate this) rather larger than a coin. Secondly, I don't understand how they're virtually impossible to forge, as surely anyone with access to Wish could set up their own traps using exactly the same method. After all, the entire premise of the Tippyverse is "if it's possible by the rules, people have worked it out."

[Emperor Tippy]

I have two problems with this. Firstly, I fail to comprehend how an Ice Assassin can possibly serve as a useful token of exchange, due to the fact that it is both animate and (generally, though I grant that the proper target would negate this) rather larger than a coin. Secondly, I don't understand how they're virtually impossible to forge, as surely anyone with access to Wish could set up their own traps using exactly the same method. After all, the entire premise of the Tippyverse is "if it's possible by the rules, people have worked it out."

You can stuff any creature (even a Colossal sized Great Wyrm Dragon) into any other physical body, even something like a regular old gold coin. You can then make an Ice Assassin of that creature and it would be in coin form.

As for being virtually impossible to forge. Even if you could make your own Ice Assassin coins, you can't fake the Tenacious Spell Permanency Telepathic Bonds with the authentication Ice Assassin golems. The Infinite City (and all of its embassies and outposts) have authentication stations that can use those bonds to tell whether a chit is authentic or forged. There exists no way to fake the bonds involved.

As a field test, well first the chit needs to pass the invincibility test (if you can so much as scratch or mark a supposed chit then its a fake). A forgery good enough to do that means 9th level spellcasting is involved (which generally costs far more than would be worth the effort).

[Icewraith]

It's worth noting that there are generic rules in the FRCS for the ability to find magical items in shops... Waterdeep notwithstanding, the FRCS doesn't actually have Ye Olde Magick-Marte.

I thought Ye Olde Magic Mart was (1) Halruaa and (2) every Red Wizard enclave ever. Considering that you can't throw a brick in the FRCS without hitting an orc horde, evil dragon, beholder, giant, abandoned wizard's tower, or elven ruin/corrupted mythal... acquiring magic items is more a question of casting Arcane Sight and then wandering around like people do at beaches with metal detectors. If you don't find an item, a plot hook, or a level appropriate encounter you're not trying. Or you just go shopping in one of the aforementioned locations, or the local temple of Waukeen. :smalltongue:

[Big Fau]

It's worth noting that there are generic rules in the FRCS for the ability to find magical items in shops... Waterdeep notwithstanding, the FRCS doesn't actually have Ye Olde Magick-Marte.

That same book also has Elminster as a suggested "random encounter" in the sample module, walking around giving out a free Heal spell if the party is low on health...

[Slipperychicken]

I have seen far too many whole sessions "lost" on magical shopping trips. I want to heroically fight monsters, not do the D&D world equivalent of walking around a supermarket.

I agree with this, with the corollary that such "shopping sprees" can extend to nonmagical items as well. I've seen players spend hours of real time haggling with the GM over nonsense like jars of marbles and flower bouquets.

So I don't think it's a problem with "Magic Mart" itself, but prioritization and the way shopping is played. I prefer to that such encounters are resolved with a single die roll for haggling (as is detailed in either Complete Scoundrel or Complete Adventurer), so the game continues moving quickly and we can focus on things which are more enjoyable.

[Seerow]

I can see healing potions being available but everything else should be either hard to find or quest specific since it makes finding that +1 sword or the +1 ring of protection they find less interesting.


I'm just going to say, I've been playing in a series of low magic low wealth campaigns for the last year or two now. E6 worlds where by the time we hit level 6 the party has maybe 4000 gold between the entirety of us.

At no point does a +1 ring of protection or +1 sword ever become an interesting piece of loot. If your goal in restricting magic is to make lame +1 bonuses interesting, then you're barking up the wrong tree. If you want magical items to be interesting, the answer is to use actually interesting magic items.

[Icewraith]

Magic mart shopping usually falls under the same heading as "leveling up" - I expect my players to do that sort of thing on their own time and then run the end results by me so we can actually start the next session when we start the next session.

The characters should either be exploring or fighting for their lives for most of a game session. If we reach a full-on break opportunity I'll usually let everyone rest their brains for half an hour, grab some food, and people who want to go shopping can do it then as long as they're fast.

Edit: Seerow's statement holds true for feats. Really, anything that adds numbers and not capability (for spellcasters, numbers ARE capability if it's their spells per day table) is boring, hence why fighter 3 is so maligned.

[Emperor Tippy]

I agree with this, with the corollary that such "shopping sprees" can extend to nonmagical items as well. I've seen players spend hours of real time haggling with the GM over nonsense like jars of marbles and flower bouquets.

So I don't think it's a problem with "Magic Mart" itself, but prioritization and the way shopping is played. I prefer to that such encounters are resolved with a single die roll for haggling (as is detailed in either Complete Scoundrel or Complete Adventurer), so the game continues moving quickly and we can focus on things which are more enjoyable.

My preferred haggling rule is the PC's diplomacy or intimidate check (PC's choice) minus the shop keepers diplomacy or intimidate check (same as whatever the PC chose to use). The difference in the check is how many percentage points from the baseline the deal swings in the victors favor. So if the PC beats the NPC by 10 points when trying to sell an item then he gets 60% of market value, if trying to buy then he pays 90% of market value. If the NPC win's then those numbers swing the other way (so in the same case it would be the NPC paying 40% of market value and selling for 110% of market value).

Granted I also run WBL as an actual rule. You get WBL worth of magic items regardless of how you come to gain those items (Wish abuse, crafting, purchase, theft, whatever).

[Brookshw]

That same book also has Elminster as a suggested "random encounter" in the sample module, walking around giving out a free Heal spell if the party is low on health...


To be fair so did the 2e box set. Elminster is proof that after a point epic wizards have done it all so what the heck, time to **** around with the newbies.

[NichG]

I'm just going to say, I've been playing in a series of low magic low wealth campaigns for the last year or two now. E6 worlds where by the time we hit level 6 the party has maybe 4000 gold between the entirety of us.

At no point does a +1 ring of protection or +1 sword ever become an interesting piece of loot. If your goal in restricting magic is to make lame +1 bonuses interesting, then you're barking up the wrong tree. If you want magical items to be interesting, the answer is to use actually interesting magic items.

You need to do both. Lets say I give the party an item that can be used to temporarily shape terrain at will into structures, bridges, etc, that last for 1 minute. That's an interesting magic item.

Now lets say the party must choose between that item and 50kgp of Rings of Protection, stat boosters, cloaks of resistance, and the like. That's what having a magic item economy does - it means that magic items are interchangeable.

There is a range of magic items which are 'interesting' but not 'essential' which will inevitably get traded out for magic items which are boring but mechanically more powerful. If you want to preserve the 'interesting' items it is in some sense necessary to mess with the magic-mart phenomenon too.

[Seerow]

You need to do both. Lets say I give the party an item that can be used to temporarily shape terrain at will into structures, bridges, etc, that last for 1 minute. That's an interesting magic item.

Now lets say the party must choose between that item and 50kgp of Rings of Protection, stat boosters, cloaks of resistance, and the like. That's what having a magic item economy does - it means that magic items are interchangeable.

There is a range of magic items which are 'interesting' but not 'essential' which will inevitably get traded out for magic items which are boring but mechanically more powerful. If you want to preserve the 'interesting' items it is in some sense necessary to mess with the magic-mart phenomenon too.

I agree that the issues are linked. But the person I was quoting specifically said they wanted a +1 ring of protection or +1 sword to seem more interesting. Not that they didn't want it to seem like just a pile of gold, but that the measley +1 bonus was supposed to make the item actually interesting.

Personally, I don't mind magic marts, but wouldn't be sad to see them go. But +x items? All of those can burn for all I care. Bake the bonuses into the classes that need them, and get rid of the items for good.

[Emperor Tippy]

You need to do both. Lets say I give the party an item that can be used to temporarily shape terrain at will into structures, bridges, etc, that last for 1 minute. That's an interesting magic item.

Now lets say the party must choose between that item and 50kgp of Rings of Protection, stat boosters, cloaks of resistance, and the like. That's what having a magic item economy does - it means that magic items are interchangeable.

There is a range of magic items which are 'interesting' but not 'essential' which will inevitably get traded out for magic items which are boring but mechanically more powerful. If you want to preserve the 'interesting' items it is in some sense necessary to mess with the magic-mart phenomenon too.

I tend to make interesting items like that fluff limited and not count against WBL. What I mean by fluff limited is things like "will only work for individuals who have been in a fight with the following creatures and resulted in said creatures death" that just happens to hit monsters that the PC's have faced but makes the item functionally worthless from a sale/trade perspective. Once an item has requirements like "has to have killed a pit fiend, a Mind Flayer, and an Adult or older Dragon" it needs to be a very powerful item for anyone to be willing to meet those use requirements.

[Brookshw]

Personally, I don't mind magic marts, but wouldn't be sad to see them go. But +x items? All of those can burn for all I care. Bake the bonuses into the classes that need them, and get rid of the items for good.

Actually that sounds like a great solution though how you balance that with the potential of multiclassing/prcs strikes me as a bit of a challenge.

[NichG]

Actually that sounds like a great solution though how you balance that with the potential of multiclassing/prcs strikes me as a bit of a challenge.

Something like the following should roughly do it (for PCs and NPCs but not monsters):

- Gain a stat point every 2 levels instead of every 4
- Gain an untyped +1 to saves, +1 to-hit, +1 'mundane' melee/ranged damage (e.g. not on spells, rays, etc), and +1 AC every 4 character levels on top of whatever you get from classes.
- If still using purchaseable magic items, divide WBL by 2 and get rid of all the +Saves, +Hit, +AC, +Damage, +Stats items.

Roughly speaking that means everyone gets +5 to saves, to-hit, and to AC at Lv20. They also get an extra 5 stat points to place somewhere. So basically this is equivalent to having a modest set of the usual +X items.

[Emperor Tippy]

...A Belt of Magnificence is the equivalent of 36 stat points.

If you actually want to remove the need for stat boosting items then give another stat point every level (make them self stacking enhancement bonuses) with the maximum bonus to any score equal to HD/3 (so +6 at level 18). That actually reflects the kind of points that PC's are running around.

[Faily]

Eberron is a world that lends well to the concept of Magic-Mart, considering how they have "industrialized" magic. Just look at House Cannith.

Mystara have plenty of places with high magic that also support Magic-Mart. The biggest one being Alphatia, where they are all about the magic. Magic is the way of life, and there is definatly a market there for the selling and creation of magic items. Minothad (sp?) is run by a series of guilds, each one overseeing different sorts of things in the nation... including your very own guilds who oversee magic, another guild who oversees the trade/sales of magic items... and tons of other guilds of some kind.


I've personally found over my years of gaming that the ones that suffer the most from lack of magic items are often the non-casters. Casters can often get by just fine with very little... the others need magical weapons, enchanted armor so they can last longer in battle, potions or wondrous items to replicate abilities of the casters, are more dependant on having a number of good ability scores. Currently playing a low-powered campaign where the only magic items we have are the ones we create ourselves (and only one caster currently has Item Creation atm), and it's a real bitch for the rest of the party to see that the Cleric is almost only enchanting his own armor and weapon, while the Fighter, Barbarian and Ranger barely managed to at least get a +1 weapon each.

[Harrow]

I guess I don't mind magic marts mostly because I make different assumptions than a lot of people.

First of all, I don't want items to be interesting. I care about characters and no item could ever make a character more interesting to me. Magic items exist simply to allow characters to overcome challenges that their class features don't give them any options for, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I also tend to assume that the wealthiest of NPCs can throw around hundreds of thousands of gold if they want, with large governments having budgets regularly in the millions.

Finally, from a player's perspective, there are lots of interesting items. I just never get/use them because they cost an order of magnitude more than I can afford because +x items are just more useful. Feather tokens and Flaming weapons and armor that lets you breathe underwater are all really cool. But they are far too expensive for me to even consider buying. If you want players to have interesting items, don't make them hard to get.

For maximum item satisfaction you need the effort to obtain an item to equal the usefulness of an item. If you get something too easy, it's hard to care about. If you work too hard to get something, it doesn't meet the expectations you've been building. +X items are boring. If you make them hard to get, then they're boring and also disappointing.

And if you drop interesting items on the party, you need to make sure the gold value of them is small enough that they are more useful being interesting than they would be as vendor trash. Which is probably going to mean cutting the price of a lot of things down by an order of magnitude and changing +X enchantments to +cost abilities instead, because the current cost of most magic items makes them by default take too much effort to get to be worth what thy can do.

Basically, I don't care about items, I don't want to, I assume many NPCs have means and motive to make and acquire them, and if you do care and want to make players care you need to make them easier to get, not harder.

[Spuddles]

I tend to make interesting items like that fluff limited and not count against WBL. What I mean by fluff limited is things like "will only work for individuals who have been in a fight with the following creatures and resulted in said creatures death" that just happens to hit monsters that the PC's have faced but makes the item functionally worthless from a sale/trade perspective. Once an item has requirements like "has to have killed a pit fiend, a Mind Flayer, and an Adult or older Dragon" it needs to be a very powerful item for anyone to be willing to meet those use requirements.

Really? There are a ton of ways to make monsters to kill so you can meet requirements, most of which just require casting a spell. And by RAW, paying for spellcasting is quite cheap.

Since D&D has explicit method of measuring transaction or opportunity costs, the price of those items would merely be adjusted by the cost of a casting of PaO and brief use of a +10,000,000 arrow of slaying.

[NichG]

...A Belt of Magnificence is the equivalent of 36 stat points.

If you actually want to remove the need for stat boosting items then give another stat point every level (make them self stacking enhancement bonuses) with the maximum bonus to any score equal to HD/3 (so +6 at level 18). That actually reflects the kind of points that PC's are running around.

There's a difference between making sure everyone gets the maximum benefit they could under the full D&D rules and using items from any/all sources, and making sure that people have vaguely what is expected in order to deal with MM-type encounters. Belt of Magnificence came out later in D&D's run, I don't think it can really be considered 'mandatory'.

[Heliomance]

...A Belt of Magnificence is the equivalent of 36 stat points.

If you actually want to remove the need for stat boosting items then give another stat point every level (make them self stacking enhancement bonuses) with the maximum bonus to any score equal to HD/3 (so +6 at level 18). That actually reflects the kind of points that PC's are running around.

That sounds a little excessive. While exceptions exist, I'd expect the average PC to end up with +6s to two stats, not three.

[Seerow]

Something like the following should roughly do it (for PCs and NPCs but not monsters):

- Gain a stat point every 2 levels instead of every 4
- Gain an untyped +1 to saves, +1 to-hit, +1 'mundane' melee/ranged damage (e.g. not on spells, rays, etc), and +1 AC every 4 character levels on top of whatever you get from classes.
- If still using purchaseable magic items, divide WBL by 2 and get rid of all the +Saves, +Hit, +AC, +Damage, +Stats items.

Roughly speaking that means everyone gets +5 to saves, to-hit, and to AC at Lv20. They also get an extra 5 stat points to place somewhere. So basically this is equivalent to having a modest set of the usual +X items.

The stat boosting is on the low end, but this is more or less on the right track.

Personally when I GM, for stats I give two major bonuses, in exchange for +stat items no longer existing and no longer being able to wish for increased stats (including removal of the magic tomes that boost stats)

1) Everyone gets bonus attribute points every time they level which may be either saved or invested into stats using the point buy system. At first they gain 2 attribute points per level. Every 4 levels this increases by +1. So it looks like the following:

1: 0
2: 2 (+2)
3: 4 (+2)
4: 6 (+2)
5: 8 (+2)
6: 11 (+3)
7: 14 (+3)
8: 17 (+3)
9: 20 (+3)
10: 24 (+4)
11: 28 (+4)
12: 32 (+4)
13: 36 (+4)
14: 41 (+5)
15: 46 (+5)
16: 51 (+5)
17: 56 (+5)
18: 62 (+6)
19: 68 (+6)
20: 74 (+6)

This replaces the normal stat bump every 4 levels. Using these points you can increase an attribute beyond 18, however the cost of doing so continues to rise. Increasing a stat costs as much as the current bonus + 1 (minimum 1). So going from 10 to 11 costs 1. 13 to 14 costs 2. 25 to 26 costs 7. 26 to 27 costs 8.

2) In addition to the above, as characters level they become inherently magical to some degree. They gain passive enhancement bonuses to their stats. Starting at 6th level the character gains a +1 enhancement bonus to 1 stat of their choice. Every even numbered level thereafter the character can choose to gain an additional +1 enhancement bonus to a stat of their choice (this may be the same stat if desired). Starting at 10th level, the character applies the +1 enhancement bonus to 3 different stats. Starting at 14th level, every stat gains a +1 enhancement bonus at each level.

So, assuming the character focuses these bonuses as much as possible you get:
6th: +1
8th: +2
10th: +3/+1/+1
12th: +4/+2/+2
14th: +5/+3/+3/+1/+1/+1
16th: +6/+4/+4/+2/+2/+2
18th: +7/+5/+5/+3/+3/+3
20th: +8/+6/+6/+4/+4/+4

The goal of these bonuses is to provided boosted stats across the board to high level characters, and make characters less reliant on low level buffs for effects that magic items typically grant passively. Between this and the first boost, a SAD character starting with a 16 in his primary stat can boost that to 27 through point buy, and then apply the highest Enhancement bonus to get that up to a 35. With a 18 starting, that can be pushed up to an even 36.

[Brookshw]

Basically, I don't care about items, I don't want to, I assume many NPCs have means and motive to make and acquire them, and if you do care and want to make players care you need to make them easier to get, not harder.

Now, I love this attitude and players that embrace it. Sadly though that's not a consistent attitude. Far too many people seem to have this emphasis on gaining every mechanical advantage they can. I get that attitude, I do, but after a point it starts to reek of putting too much emphasis on the mechanics rather than the game. It's an old arguement not worth having here, but I have had players point blank threaten to take items I had forbid (because I knew if would further widen the gulf between the party and another player was already toeing the line of leaving the game because of the munchkin factor). It saddens me to see such a sense of entitlement, lack of trust in the DM to provide balanced encounters, and an emphasis placed on the wrong part of the game. These are random musings, not a dissertation regarding the issues with players, dms, encounters, etc, don't put too much weight on a particular sentence.

At Seerow: interesting. Do you find it creates an imbalance in save dcs?

[ryu]

Now, I love this attitude and players that embrace it. Sadly though that's not a consistent attitude. Far too many people seem to have this emphasis on gaining every mechanical advantage they can. I get that attitude, I do, but after a point it starts to reek of putting too much emphasis on the mechanics rather than the game. It's an old arguement not worth having here, but I have had players point blank threaten to take items I had forbid (because I knew if would further widen the gulf between the party and another player was already toeing the line of leaving the game because of the munchkin factor). It saddens me to see such a sense of entitlement, lack of trust in the DM to provide balanced encounters, and an emphasis placed on the wrong part of the game. These are random musings, not a dissertation regarding the issues with players, dms, encounters, etc, don't put too much weight on a particular sentence.

At Seerow: interesting. Do you find it creates an imbalance in save dcs?

What are you talking about? D&D is highly complex mechanical chess match with a somewhat entertaining ''roleplaying'' thing on the side for those who enjoy it. I've had campaigns that were mentally stimulating to a hilarious degree where the former was necessary to consider for hours on end just to survive, and the latter was improvised with quite literally no prior thought on the mater. That campaign was one of the most glorious things that happened at the entire table.

[Emperor Tippy]

Really? There are a ton of ways to make monsters to kill so you can meet requirements, most of which just require casting a spell. And by RAW, paying for spellcasting is quite cheap.

Since D&D has explicit method of measuring transaction or opportunity costs, the price of those items would merely be adjusted by the cost of a casting of PaO and brief use of a +10,000,000 arrow of slaying.

And it's worth the cost and hassle to do that to be able to use a magic item that, while interesting, is at best mediocre in terms of utility or use?


There's a difference between making sure everyone gets the maximum benefit they could under the full D&D rules and using items from any/all sources, and making sure that people have vaguely what is expected in order to deal with MM-type encounters. Belt of Magnificence came out later in D&D's run, I don't think it can really be considered 'mandatory'.

5 level up points, 5 Inherent, 6 Enhancment is 16 points its self. That is the point spread for pretty much any SAD character. Another 6/4 for a dual stat character is fairly common as well.

Then throw on the +2 items to all other stats (as 6,000 GP gets it added onto whatever item you actually want in that slot). Melee is often running with a total of +8 or +9 to each of the three physical stats.

To actually accurately reflect the common attribute boosting item distributions you should really be giving somewhere between 30 and 40 points over 20 levels total.


That sounds a little excessive. While exceptions exist, I'd expect the average PC to end up with +6s to two stats, not three.
Which is 12 points alone. Now throw in the +2's or +4's that are picked up for all of the other stats. Often with +1 tomes to level out scores that started negative. Then the +5 Inherent bonus or two. And then the 5 regular level up points.
6/6/5/4/5 is the fairly standard dual stat layout and that is 26 points.

The Belt of Magnificence is actually a fairly regular pickup at higher levels. Especially for characters that don't need a pricy weapon and/or can really benefit from a large number of stats.

I mean go and look at the stat bonuses that Vow of Poverty gives. That is 25 points total over 20 levels and the only reason that it is really considered decent is that it gives +8/+6/+4/+2.

[Seerow]

That sounds a little excessive. While exceptions exist, I'd expect the average PC to end up with +6s to two stats, not three.

In addition to what tippy has already said, remember that the characters who benefit most from big single boosts to one stat are the SAD casters who already rule the game at high level. Giving free boosts to other stats doesn't help those casters out too much (it's nice, but not game changing for them), but makes a monstrous difference in quality of life for most weaker classes that have heavy MAD.

That's why my houserules work out the way they do. The first part (escalating point buy) still allows a SAD character to get roughly as high as they could with Wish+Level boosts before, but allows a MAD character to get a much higher total bonus if they desire. The second part (the enhancement boost to all attributes) provides a bigger boost to a primary stat, but still gives solid boosts across the board to secondary stats, and even your weakest stats.

In the end it makes everyone feel a little more awesome, and shifts the balance slightly away from SAD characters.

Edit: Just saw the edit from Brookshw

At Seerow: interesting. Do you find it creates an imbalance in save dcs?


Not really. Most casters who start with a 18 end up with a 34 anyway. So this is resulting in at most a +1 to save DCs at the highest levels. It also makes that save progression a fair bit smoother, rather than a sudden jump of 2-3 points once the PCs find some way to finagle some wishes to get stat boosts.

If anything, to balance it out, instead of having saving throws be +1/4 levels, make it +1/3 (so you end up with a +6 enhancement to all saves at level 18), and it balances out that increased max DC nicely, and makes characters relatively more resistant to attacks that aren't against a maximized character.

[Brookshw]

What are you talking about? D&D is highly complex mechanical chess match with a somewhat entertaining ''roleplaying'' thing on the side for those who enjoy it. I've had campaigns that were mentally stimulating to a hilarious degree where the former was necessary to consider for hours on end just to survive, and the latter was improvised with quite literally no prior thought on the mater. That campaign was one of the most glorious things that happened at the entire table.

Was that supposed to be blue? If not that's why you and I wouldn't sit at the same table. No offense, play as you like. Frankly though, I've seen that drive people away from my tables. Friends that matter to me, and when that starts happening I DAMN WELL DO TAKE ISSUE.

[ryu]

Was that supposed to be blue? If not that's why you and I wouldn't sit at the same table. No offense, play as you like. Frankly though, I've seen that drive people away from my tables. Friends that matter to me, and when that starts happening I DAMN WELL DO TAKE ISSUE.

I ''take issue'' when literally anyone claims there's a ''wrong'' part of the game to focus on. On the opposite side of the scale I've quite literally been bored to sleep when someone spent an entire hour in real world time in the same room monopolizing conversation with the BBEG we'd supposedly just murdered that was somehow still capable of vocalizing. When I woke up I was the only person still sitting at the table besides the hammy one. No it was neither of our houses.:smallsigh:

[Brookshw]

I ''take issue'' when literally anyone claims there's a ''wrong'' part of the game to focus on. On the opposite side of the scale I've quite literally been bored to sleep when someone spent an entire hour in real world time in the same room monopolizing conversation with the BBEG we'd supposedly just murdered that was somehow still capable of vocalizing. When I woke up I was the only person still sitting at the table besides the hammy one. No it was neither of our houses.:smallsigh:

Sure, poor phrasing, call it "that" part of the game. My point is be aware of your fellow players.

[ryu]

Sure, poor phrasing, call it "that" part of the game. My point is be aware of your fellow players.

And he was still reading out his intended conversation path while I just sat there bewildered. He literally filled in talking for the BBEG as well as the other members of the party. I started backing away slowly without making eye contact, after he didn't even acknowledge the fact that I was up and looking directly at him. It was legitimately creepy. At least the host was kind enough to plant a pillow under my head before going to the other room to watch TV. I can only imagine the neck pain that would've happened otherwise.

[Seerow]

And he was still reading out his intended conversation path while I just sat there bewildered. He literally filled in talking for the BBEG as well as the other members of the party. I started backing away slowly without making eye contact, after he didn't even acknowledge the fact that I was up and looking directly at him. It was legitimately creepy. At least the host was kind enough to plant a pillow under my head before going to the other room to watch TV. I can only imagine the neck pain that would've happened otherwise.

And this goes back to his main point of "be aware of your fellow players".

Just as that player was being selfish in his apparently hour+ monologue/exchange, grinding the session to a halt and continuing long after everyone else had lost interest. Brookshw's issue is when the opposite happens. A couple of players minmax everything, and focus entirely on the mechanical side of the game, to the exclusion of anything else, and in the process alienating the players who aren't interested in that.

It's up to the individual groups to strike a balance, and each group's balance point is going to be different. But if at any point what a player is doing is causing other players to lose interest, regardless of what it is they're doing that's causing that, it should be reigned in.

[ericgrau]

Players should get plenty of magic items for D&D to be playable at all, but if magic items are too easy for all to get then it makes no sense and cheapens the feel. Having the magic items but explaining some sort of process where they come from handles this. For example paying an NPC wizard and waiting a couple weeks for him to make it.

And in general cause and effect makes an RPG world more interesting play in and results in planning and intrigue rather than "I again use X ability until the foe is defeated". Because if A => B => C someone might step in between A & B and someone else might try to stop him from stepping in. Rather than uncreative and boring C vs. C face to face battles at full readiness.

[Brookshw]

And he was still reading out his intended conversation path while I just sat there bewildered. He literally filled in talking for the BBEG as well as the other members of the party. I started backing away slowly without making eye contact, after he didn't even acknowledge the fact that I was up and looking directly at him. It was legitimately creepy. At least the host was kind enough to plant a pillow under my head before going to the other room to watch TV. I can only imagine the neck pain that would've happened otherwise.

Yeah, that's kind of crazy. Sorry to hear about that, hope you prefer your current game more.

[ryu]

Yeah, that's kind of crazy. Sorry to hear about that, hope you prefer your current game more.

The next session is going to be a continuation of the boss-fight that we stopped in the middle of last session, and started the session before that. Two parties of full casters going after each other with thousands of contingent spells that activate with purely mental non-actions that can happen even if the character is otherwise incapable of moving in any way. We're still in the relatively early stages of the battle-plan the group agreed upon when the DM wasn't around. This is the kind of ridiculous I play the game for.:smallamused:

[Vhaidara]

The next session is going to be a continuation of the boss-fight that we stopped in the middle of last session, and started the session before that. Two parties of full casters going after each other with thousands of contingent spells that activate with purely mental non-actions that can happen even if the character is otherwise incapable of moving in any way. We're still in the relatively early stages of the battle-plan the group agreed upon when the DM wasn't around. This is the kind of ridiculous I play the game for.:smallamused:

...Can I quote you on that one? That sounds terrifying and beautiful on so many levels.

[Waker]

Didn't Robert Asprin write some novels about that?

:smalltongue:

It's funny you say that, since whenever Tippy makes a post about the Tippyverse, I imagine the Bazaar on Deva.

[Lord Haart]

I hate the concept of the Magic-Mart™. Mostly for the "Magic items could be a tiny bit more unique and emotionally rewarding" and for the "It's psychologically impossible to buy a fun item in lieu of a useful one until the fun item's cost becomes trivial" reasons.

I venemently oppose DMs who try to disallow Magic-Mart™ in their 3.5 games (unless they use wish-lists instead). I do take offence at the notion of WBL being violated (especially on the side of underpayment) or being technically given, but in a form that is both arbitrary/random and un-exchangeable.

There is no contradiction here; it's a case of lesser evil having the best insurance. There's a lot of violence inherent in the system, yet denying full access to magic items makes the already faulty situation noticeably worse (and the key word here is "noticeably", since if it simply wouldn't make any difference, i'd have nothing against going by flavour-based reasoning). There are plenty of "solutions" for the item dependancy that are similar to 4e's "Inherent bonuses" optional rule (which works pretty well; lack of special properties, which can be pretty powerful and "must-have" for some builds like Staff of Ruin, is still a problem and one that hits different characters unevenly, but 4e is inherently far more durable so it takes this kind of hits far better), including the one discussed right above, but in 3.5 qualitative magic items are far more important ("fighter gotta fly") and powerful (as illustrated by all the outright theoretical optimisation hax using stuff like Candle of Invocation, scrolls of high-level spells etc.) than quantatively beneficial ones, and i haven't seen a working "no magic items" solution for that which doesn't sound like "You don't get magic items, instead it's like you have magic items, no-two-in-a-same-slot and all, only they're not items and instead of money they cost you parts of WBL while real money is scarce and used for food, lodging and RP". Or, of course, like "So if 3.5 dissatisfies us on so many levels, why won't we stop houseruling it into an even tighter knot and go take a week to familiarise ourself with a system that has a competely different set of inherent faults?", which appears to be a remarkably rare solution due to hysteresis more than every other reason, if you ask me.


And on a completely different note: as some have had already noted, Forgotten Realms are, going by feel, by games (where you start buying +1 sling stones in your second tavern) and, most important, by logical consequences of their power oversaturation, a very Magic Mart™-y setting, whether a certain hyena likes that or not.

[Another_Poet]

I just want to say this is awesome...


I'm with the crowd saying a stockpile of highly valuable magical items all in a 'shop' doesn't make any sense.

You can get minor magic items (as in DMG table 7-27) by going to one of a number of local guilds, unions, or confederacies or even the odd noble house, depending on what exactly it is you're looking for; e.g. the mercanary companies have surplus arms and armor, usually looted from dungeons or off of targets, to supplement funding from jobs, likewise with the thieves guild for your more larcenous tools but not the loot because they have to fence that stuff asap to actually make a profit, the exploration confederacy sells items useful for travel and exploration as well as bits and bobs from the latest expedition that they haven't traded away yet, and the wizard's tower or temple of the god of commerce or artifice will have a broad selection of a bit of everything as well as the tools of the spellcasting trade and can have initiate members craft items on request. None of them will have a standing stockpile though, only a few, mostly random items that they're more likely to trade than to sell.

A +1 weapon is worth 40 trade-bars worth of gold. Nobody except money changers, trading companies, and governments traffic in that kind of cash. The above mentioned companies and guilds will -trade- you their goods for your loot and old equipment and will accept cash if you've got it, but -none- of them will give you cash for your crap unless it's something that they'll have a serious use for. They're going to immediately sell your old stuff to one or another trading company for cash for their own use.

The trading companies don't keep anything at the local office at all and don't do trade in minor items with individuals from the general public. They facilitate the exchange of those goods between the various companies and guilds and supply the governments with items in quantity immensely faster than the governments' crafters can make them. They will, however, deal with individuals for the exchange of intermediate and major magic items as brokers.

The only shops that actually keep a stockpile of magical goods are potion brewers. They don't worry about thieves because their whole stock is labeled in code, the key to which is either stored somewhere very secure after hours or only exists in the shop owner's head. There's also the factor of potions being pretty much unsellable by anyone but the guy who makes them. This is because there's no way to know if the potion you're being sold second-hand is what the seller says it is because he almost certainly didn't make it and if he stole it he might not even know what it is. If you rob a potion maker's shop the best you're going to get is a couple scrolls of spells that aren't on the shopkeeper's list, maybe a schema of a spell for a particularly popular potion, and a crap-ton of potions that you'll have to identify and can't sell. You might also get a few alchemical items, but noone cares about that.

...and I'm stealing it :smallbiggrin:

[CockroachTeaParty]

Fun Fact: both Pathfinder and 3.5 have a race of mercantile outsiders called Mercanes. They seem custom-designed to exist as a race of 'magic merchants' that inexplicably have access to powerful magical items through a giant, illuminati-esque network of merchants, stockpiles, and patrons. Access to the ultimate Magic Mart is just a Knowledge (the planes) check away!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I definitely respect Tippy's optimization skills but whenever he makes a post it really does feel like a case of "Same rules, different game."

I don't have any actual numbers to back this up but I feel very confident in saying that he and his group play at a level of optimization well above the mean for most of the 3.5 community.

[ryu]

...Can I quote you on that one? That sounds terrifying and beautiful on so many levels.

Go right ahead. Also feel free to sig pretty much any remark I make I make detailing things that happen at the table. Most of them I'm proud of.

[Pickford]

Psion has it as a power known via an Epic Spell to Power Erudite. Used via a Scroll created with Wish. Used by a caster with Ignore Material Components. Used as a Spell Like Ability or Supernatural Ability.

Then you have Eschew Materials and simply pulling it out of a spell component pouch (which technically works).

1) Those don't obviate the need for a target (the ice statue of the thing to be duplicated, containing a piece of the thing to be duplicated, that the spell acts on).
2) To have something in the spell component pouch it must be able to fit in the pouch. Unless you're duplicating a mouse sized object, that isn't happening (also it's ice, so there's a very real time limit before it melts as a result of heat exposure).


Except that per RAW it doesn't.

What doesn't? If the spell lacks the appropriate conditions it won't work. That's RAW. You have to touch the ice statue containing the part of the creature being duplicated. No ice statue, no dice. Tu comprende?


Both. You don't actually need them and if you are using one of the methods where you do need them then you can still get them (just get the Aleax to spit, for example).

Again, if the Aleax doesn't actually exist at the moment, you can't get said thing because it doesn't exist. If it did exist either you're not the target, in which case you can't even touch its spit because that would be interfering with the Aleax (which is verbotten), or you are the target in which case you're busy getting killed by an Aleax.


This is all pretty much totally rules wrong.

You remain incorrect, constructs according to the MM (and the Aleax description) neither breathe nor live.



1) creatures making suboptimal decisions like that would ultimately get pushed out by ruthless mercantile classes who recognize that wealth is power and refusing to trade is nubbery of the highest order

2) and that's why most large churches would have secondary, or perhaps evn primary functions, as traders of magical goods

The value of things is entirely subjective. To determine what is most valuable to a fiend we'd have to know what their end-goal motivations are. Logically these could include: Ascension, Conquering the 'Good' Planes, Domination of the PMP. Gold doesn't necessarily assist with any of these goals (though to be sure, it could indirectly be used to try and reach them). Real power would be more along the lines of: Favors and Souls.

Fiends probably would be more likely to provide assistance to cultists worshipping their patron (or perhaps the fiend in question), and they might even do it for free, assuming the cultists are operating towards goals the Fiends approve of.

Fiends are also typically immortal, so if nothing else they can continue to operate well past the collapse of any mercantile faction. (Or simply use the accumulated magical weaponry to plunder them). Actually this last bit makes it seem probable there would be endless warfare between power groups (i.e. fiends constantly raiding merchants to plunder their stockrooms).

From the church perspective, the only logical reason to accept gold for assistance is that the gold translates into things the Church also needs (i.e. taxes, buying food, purchasing raw materials to make magic items, etc...) whereas the Fiends don't need any of that.




You can stuff any creature (even a Colossal sized Great Wyrm Dragon) into any other physical body, even something like a regular old gold coin. You can then make an Ice Assassin of that creature and it would be in coin form.

1) How do you stuff it into a coin?
2) Ice Assassin of a creature is that creature, not whatever magical effects have been layered on top. So no, this doesn't work.


Tenacious Spell Permanency Telepathic Bonds with the authentication Ice Assassin golems.

Not a valid thing, golems aren't living or breathing. They also have spell immunity, so you couldn't place a telepathic bond on golems to begin with, also the Ice Assassin can't be improved or become more powerful, so you can't give them such an enhancement either.

Furthermore, only the creator of an ice assassin has a telepathic bond to it, which means the golems would be totally incapable of checking the veracity of said coins even were they possible, which a simple checking of the requirements of the spell and the aleax reveals them not to be.

Ryu: It's nice you like homebrewing contingencies that can be set off by thoughts, what bearing does that have on normal gameplay though? :smallconfused:

[ryu]

Ryu: It's nice you like homebrewing contingencies that can be set off by thoughts, what bearing does that have on normal gameplay though? :smallconfused:

Considering you and I both know exactly how much this forum holds stalk in your dubious interpretations, I'm just going to pretend you never responded to me and prevent a thread I'm actually having fun in from turning into another of those discussions. Maybe some other day sport.

[Pickford]

Considering you and I both know exactly how much this forum holds stalk in your dubious interpretations, I'm just going to pretend you never responded to me and prevent a thread I'm actually having fun in from turning into another of those discussions. Maybe some other day sport.

Don't make spurious claims you are incapable of proving and I wouldn't even have to correct you chief.

[Seerow]

2) Ice Assassin of a creature is that creature, not whatever magical effects have been layered on top. So no, this doesn't work.


It might not actually work, but I for one do not want to play in a world in which PAOd Greater Dragons is not a viable currency.

[Angelalex242]

I've always thought Clerics, and especially Paladins, might simply have a 'hand me down' system among their Brothers and Sisters in Faith. When that +1 holy sword isn't doing it for Sir Justus anymore, he asks an older, more powerful knight if he's got a +1 holy lawful sword. The more powerful knight says, "Oh, I was just looking to get rid of that, here ya go." And then Sir Justus, in turn, hands his old +1 holy sword down to a younger knight still learning the ways of smiting evil.

Best of all, since it's Paladins and Good aligned clerics, they can even do this sort of thing by honor system (because anyone who violates the honor system will immediately be powers free.)

[ryu]

Now that that's safely out of the way we can get back to business. The paladin hand-me-downs are totally a thing that makes sense to happen to retain more value within the actual church organization. Beats the pants of selling stuff at a loss.

[Honest Tiefling]

You could even do an evil version for a Lawful Evil religion, where a younger (or less high ranking) cleric has to duel or otherwise outsmart a higher ranking one, and then can ask for a boon.

Hey, good doesn't have a monopoly on honor after all!

[Sith_Happens]

It might not actually work, but I for one do not want to play in a world in which PAOd Greater Dragons is not a viable currency.

It does seem rather unnecessary when you could just make Ice Assassin Fine Animated Object Aleaxes, though.

[Pickford]

You could even do an evil version for a Lawful Evil religion, where a younger (or less high ranking) cleric has to duel or otherwise outsmart a higher ranking one, and then can ask for a boon.

Hey, good doesn't have a monopoly on honor after all!

Was that last bit supposed to be in blue? :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Was that last bit supposed to be in blue? :smalltongue:

Why would it? Honor is more of a lawful concept than a good one.

[Pickford]

Why would it? Honor is more of a lawful concept than a good one.

I don't think rules are necessarily coterminous with honor.

[Lord Haart]

Not a valid thing, golems aren't living or breathing. They also have spell immunity, so you couldn't place a telepathic bond on golems to begin with

You haven't been around Tippy for long, had ya? Of course there was some amount of PaO and/or True Mindswitch involved between "Telepathic bond" and "Imma golem". Or something in that vein, anyway. Unless the "can lower voluntarily" clause of spell resistance applies to magic immunity. Then again, even then everything's better with True Mindswitch.

[Pickford]

You haven't been around Tippy for long, had ya? Of course there was some amount of PaO and/or True Mindswitch involved between "Telepathic bond" and "Imma golem". Or something in that vein, anyway. Unless the "can lower voluntarily" clause of spell resistance applies to magic immunity. Then again, even then everything's better with True Mindswitch.

True Mind Switch with a thing that has no mind? Interesting...tell me more.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think rules are necessarily coterminous with honor.

I've seen two versions of the concept of honor.

The first is based in having a codified system for proper behavior. Those who follow the rules are honorable while those who don't are dishonorable.

The second is based in reputation within the social structure. Those who are perceived as exemplars of their culture's ideals are considered honorable while those who flout society are dishonorable.

In either case it's definitely a lawful matter being bound up in its own rules or in the social contract for a particular society.

[Angelalex242]

They aren't. But the reason the Paladin/Good Cleric hand me downs work is because the Paladins/Good Clerics can naturally be counted on to have the best interest of their brother and sister knights at heart. When the Cleric of Heironeus gives his used Full Plate +3 to the Paladin of the same faith, he knows that armor is guarding the life of a dear friend and trusted ally.

Now we go say hi to Hextor's people. That up and coming young blackguard/cleric who wants your old stuff might be coming to take your place as he moves up the social ladder of the church. He wants the best for himself, and maybe even wants the best for the church, but he does not necessarily want the best for you personally. What reason do you have to give him your old stuff and possibly point his dagger at your throat? It is not necessarily among Hextor's rules that 'thou shalt not be jerks to each other.' It IS among his rules that 'the strongest shall serve me.' (Granted, the LE version works much better if it IS in the rule book that 'thou shalt not be jerks to each other.')

[Honest Tiefling]

It could be a mark of shame to give up a valuable item as a boon granted to an upstart that just bested you. Incentive to do better next time if you wish to keep your position without having to replace staff very week because somebody couldn't figure out a better means of demotion.

[Knaight]

Well, greed is a powerful motivator. Sure if you have spectacular role players they will get all into the ''save the princess'' plot, but all players will bend over backwards for loot.

If you have people who are interested in roleplaying at all, the roleplaying aspect will work for them. Though I will say that a "save the princess" plot probably makes that more difficult, just on account of being a tired cliche at this point. As for greed, I'd note that most of the loot is less a matter of the typical want for luxuries, status symbols, etc. and more a want for power. The drive towards acquiring power also pushes for contacts, reputation, etc.

[cakellene]

Instead of evils dueling each other and getting a boon. I see it more plausible they would kill each other as part of advancement scheme and then get new shinies as a bonus.

[Honest Tiefling]

Instead of evils dueling each other and getting a boon. I see it more plausible they would kill each other as part of advancement scheme and then get new shinies as a bonus.

I would imagine that in settings where the number of followers you have increases your divine power as a god, you rather that they do NOT kill each other willy nilly. And those that defy you will wish that their compatriots had merely killed them.

If I had evil players, I'd probably try to encourage this situation, especially since they KNOW they will have more problems to deal with as they've made a still-living enemy they will constantly have to best to maintain their power.

[Pickford]

I've seen two versions of the concept of honor.

The first is based in having a codified system for proper behavior. Those who follow the rules are honorable while those who don't are dishonorable.

The second is based in reputation within the social structure. Those who are perceived as exemplars of their culture's ideals are considered honorable while those who flout society are dishonorable.

In either case it's definitely a lawful matter being bound up in its own rules or in the social contract for a particular society.

The second allows for the veneer of rules. It's perception-based, not ethos-based (and thus allows for contradictions easily).

[cakellene]

I would imagine that in settings where the number of followers you have increases your divine power as a god, you rather that they do NOT kill each other willy nilly. And those that defy you will wish that their compatriots had merely killed them.

Wouldn't they have so many non-mortal followers that losses among mortal followers would be a trivial power loss?

[Honest Tiefling]

Wouldn't they have so many non-mortal followers that losses among mortal followers would be a trivial power loss?

That (and the rule about number of followers = power) would greatly depend on setting. In some, clerics might be a dime a dozen. In others, they might be the chosen of the gods, and such that a god doesn't want to waste a valuable resource for their many plots.

Personally, I would lean to the idea that clerics (and to a large degree, non-divine classes) are rare enough that gods aren't going to toss them away willy-nilly. They aren't chosen, but few gods want to waste their high level servants like that.

Also keep in mind that gods are immortal, and likely looking to future generations. A larger pool of worshipers would help with that.

[Spuddles]

Item pricing in DnD is generally broken- a lot of interesting items are way overpriced and certain items should be artifacts. A lyre of building, for instance, is insanely priced. Who needs roads when you can just build a road as you walk?

Most of the +1 items should be on a table that is dependent only on Effective Character Level and nothing else. That way you can give a party 10,000,000 gold and they can't use it to buy a +10,000 sword.

[PersonMan]

Perhaps the more successful deities manage their followers some some high-income people manage their money - even though they have plenty, they still do their best to minimize expenditures and maximize gains.

They'll eventually pull ahead of all those who said "eh, I have 10 thousand, losing fifty won't hurt" a few dozen times.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The second allows for the veneer of rules. It's perception-based, not ethos-based (and thus allows for contradictions easily).

It is, nevertheless, completely dependent on a society and that society's moors. Organized society is, in itself, a lawful idea.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that only lawful people can be considered honorable. Neutral and even chaotic people can be considered honorable under the second variation I mentioned. That doesn't change the fact that honor itself is a lawful concept.

A chaotic person gets there by simply holding the same values that his society idealizes with little concern for what people think or tradition.... and not getting caught doing things that would be frowned upon.

[Thurbane]

I agree with this, with the corollary that such "shopping sprees" can extend to nonmagical items as well. I've seen players spend hours of real time haggling with the GM over nonsense like jars of marbles and flower bouquets.

So I don't think it's a problem with "Magic Mart" itself, but prioritization and the way shopping is played. I prefer to that such encounters are resolved with a single die roll for haggling (as is detailed in either Complete Scoundrel or Complete Adventurer), so the game continues moving quickly and we can focus on things which are more enjoyable.
I've also seen it cause the DM headaches in other areas.

In a module/mini campaign we were running, there was a certain % chance the magic vendor would in town have any given item you asked for in stock, depending on the GP value. We were kind of on the clock with the adventure, so it wasn't ideal for us to sit around while stuff was custom crafted.

After a series of "No, sorry, I don't have that" die rolls, one of the players said "Why don't you just tell us what he DOES have in stock"? I was like "Dude, you know that means the DM would have to sit around and make a percentile roll against almost the entire list of items at the back of the MIC, right"? Kind of breaks verisimilitude for me, but that's a personal gripe.

Actually that sounds like a great solution though how you balance that with the potential of multiclassing/prcs strikes me as a bit of a challenge.
*cough* Vow of Poverty *cough*

Although we all know that VoP does not work as advertised on the can...

FWIW, I too lament 3.X assumptions that characters must have certain items at certain levels to fight appropriately CR'd encounters. I'd prefer a system where magic items we're "nice to haves" rather than "must have to survives". That may be the grognard in me speaking. :smalltongue:

[Honest Tiefling]

FWIW, I too lament 3.X assumptions that characters must have certain items at certain levels to fight appropriately CR'd encounters. I'd prefer a system where magic items we're "nice to haves" rather than "must have to survives". That may be the grognard in me speaking. :smalltongue:

Maybe not. I think I'd perfer a system where you got a freaking feather token and had to find ways to solve issues with that rather then have to have a +4 sword. Basically, something involved in problem solving and tactics, not making those numbers bigger so we don't all die. THAT might be due to my play style however. I've seen plenty of newer players pass over numbers in favor of trinkets that do things.

[ryu]

Maybe not. I think I'd perfer a system where you got a freaking feather token and had to find ways to solve issues with that rather then have to have a +4 sword. Basically, something involved in problem solving and tactics, not making those numbers bigger so we don't all die. THAT might be due to my play style however. I've seen plenty of newer players pass over numbers in favor of trinkets that do things.

Eh if I want problem solving items I just buy increasingly large numbers of immovable rods, decanters of endless fluids of various types, ring gates, and various other goodies dependent on class if wizard isn't happening.

[Thurbane]

The necessity of magic items in 3.X reminds me of a quote from Star Frontiers - ''Mr. Human and his Indestructible Junk Show.'' Although in D&D it ain't just humans. :smallbiggrin:

The issue with gear isn't only "you must have +X to this attribute by Y level to survive", it's also that some monsters just cannot be defeated (at least by non-casters) without access to certain abilities.

Even the badly broken (as in underpowered) VoP option doesn't address this aspect, it just keeps piling bonuses on that A.) don't scale as well as a non-VoP's character's WBL items do and B.) don't even address issues like flying enemies.

[Sith_Happens]

Eh if I want problem solving items I just buy increasingly large numbers of immovable rods, decanters of endless fluids of various types, ring gates, and various other goodies dependent on class if wizard isn't happening.

And feather tokens. No problem-solving kit is complete without Instant Tree!:smallbiggrin:

[Kid Jake]

And feather tokens. No problem-solving kit is complete without Instant Tree!:smallbiggrin:



I like to imagine that most inns are required post feather tokens every floor with a big sign that says 'In Case of Emergency: Plant Tree'.

[Heliomance]

I like to imagine that most inns are required post feather tokens every floor with a big sign that says 'In Case of Emergency: Plant Tree'.

A couple of my DMs banned me from ever having access to feather tokens again, after witnessing me (in a modern day setting) use Mage Hand to plant one between an enemy's feet on the 7th floor of a 10 storey building.

...I might have a tendency towards "when all you have is a hammer" problem solving. There are just so many uses for an instant tree! It's like the character I had who (due to being not terribly well built around fluff rather than crunch) had access to Plant Growth about 7 times a day, and very few other powers of note. The number of situations I managed to solve just using Plant Growth...

[Knaight]

FWIW, I too lament 3.X assumptions that characters must have certain items at certain levels to fight appropriately CR'd encounters. I'd prefer a system where magic items we're "nice to haves" rather than "must have to survives". That may be the grognard in me speaking. :smalltongue:

It's not. Plenty of newer players and GMs (myself included) generally prefer lower powered games that focus more on characters, and as such aren't too big on magic items being everywhere. I make an exception for magitech settings, but even there I'd prefer that the items be closer to tools characters pick up for certain tasks than being part of the character.

Also, lots of the "must have to survive" items are extremely boring. I'm fine with a generic magic sword, but the whole +1 to +5 weapon paradigm is about as dull as it gets. The stat boosts, save boosts, etc. aren't much better.

[Thurbane]

Also, lots of the "must have to survive" items are extremely boring. I'm fine with a generic magic sword, but the whole +1 to +5 weapon paradigm is about as dull as it gets. The stat boosts, save boosts, etc. aren't much better.
Could not agree more.

Of all the memorable and favorite items I have had in over 25 years of gaming, none have been plain +X items. Well, except "Conqueror", which was a +3 greatsword. But that was more because it had an amazing backstory and also served as the symbol for a kingdom that my character was the exiled prince of.

Another problem is that quirky and interesting items tend to be massively overpriced for what they actually do under the 3.X magic item pricing structure.

[Brookshw]

A couple of my DMs banned me from ever having access to feather tokens again, after witnessing me (in a modern day setting) use Mage Hand to plant one between an enemy's feet on the 7th floor of a 10 storey building.

...I might have a tendency towards "when all you have is a hammer" problem solving. There are just so many uses for an instant tree! It's like the character I had who (due to being not terribly well built around fluff rather than crunch) had access to Plant Growth about 7 times a day, and very few other powers of note. The number of situations I managed to solve just using Plant Growth...

We can never let our guard down against the treacherous nature of house plants! Stand firm young warrior, lest all that you care for be overrun overgrown!

[Heliomance]

We can never let our guard down against the treacherous nature of house plants! Stand firm young warrior, lest all that you care for be overrun overgrown!

I think my favourite has to be the time I cast PG on an enemy Druid's divine focus. Three times.

[Jgosse]

my current campaign is taking place in a town of retired adventures, there are about 400 - 500 retired adventures and there families living in the town and surrounding area. Some have farms, some ranches,some are craftsman and others have shops. One shop owner is Montgomery and his raven Montague, they run a magic shop, the more expensive the Item the less likely he has it. He has the ability to also make custom magic items but that has not comeup yet and will take longer then just the 1day -1000 gold. who would work 7,14 32....days strait when they have a shop to run.

[Talya]

Players should get plenty of magic items for D&D to be playable at all

That's not really true. You can easily defeat even-CRed opponents at level 15ish without any notable gear at all!
...
...
...
...
If you're a spellcaster. Oh wait, there's the "melees can't have nice things" again.

I hate the "magic-mart" approach to the game, but I also am cautious about limiting it because the people that get hurt most by limiting gear are the ones who need the boosts the most to start with.

[Sewercop]

The shop pays a handful of golds to have someone stand there, or you work on the item after opening hours, or your polymorphed familiar runs it, your clone, your simulacrum,insert whatever. Running a shop got rules in 3.5 and its trivial to do for a mage.

I am confused about the logic people use in this thread really.
Item crafting exist, it is trivial. Either shops exist in certain places or you need to get rid of item creation.

An item worth 24999 gold, trivial. 25001 gold, that got costs attached to it.

How many here actually use the rules for max price of an item in a settlement?

[awa]

if you do that then you shop will be extremely vulnerable to being robbed and defending it with constructs or traps either requires abusing the game mechanics in a way incompatible with most setting types or so much money the shop will never be profitable

no ones arguing that people cant create items there saying the idea of a shop full of obscure and nich items makes no sense items. The exact reasons why this is have been mentioned repeatedly in this thread so i will not repeat them here.

[Raven777]

Maybe its my roots as a video game RPG player first, tabletop game player second, but I love my Dueling Spiked Gauntlets +1 or Vorpal Katanas +5...

Gearing does feel like a part of character progression, to me. Same as picking feats and skills and spells. It feels part of my agency as a player to be able to deck out my character with bigger numbers. It feels like one more layer of customization, which is good. Knowing which items are great to have is one more thing to master, and having system components that reward being mastered is good gameplay. Therefore, I'm not really a fan of the DM deciding what I can or cannot have once I have the resources to acquire it, because my character's customization is my business, not the DM's.

I can relate to limiting the "magic-mart" abstraction if it conflicts with setting fluff, but there are other ways to portray the acquisition of the items players want. Ordering it specially crafted, finding blacksmiths or families wanting to part with heirlooms, receiving it as a quest reward or as treasure, it's all doable without having to walk into a physical magic item shop.

[Sewercop]

if you do that then you shop will be extremely vulnerable to being robbed and defending it with constructs or traps either requires abusing the game mechanics in a way incompatible with most setting types or so much money the shop will never be profitable

no ones arguing that people cant create items there saying the idea of a shop full of obscure and nich items makes no sense items. The exact reasons why this is have been mentioned repeatedly in this thread so i will not repeat them here.

There are no items on the shelf, none,nada,zip.. If there are something on display, it would probably be knick knacks that has no real value to the shop owner.
The items are made in a round if the cost are below 25k or it is comission work. Maybe he looks for it ala tippy, maybe he needs you to transfer the exp.. etc
Robbing a magic shop is delusional, there is nothing to rob, and magic shop that exist has gotten rid of its competitors. Ponder upon that...

Please tell me why it makes no sense, quote anyone that disagree. When you can have any item in the multiverse valued below 25k in one round being robbed is not a concern.

And if you run a good shop or syndicate, your customers will come from everywhere. And they are countless.

[Heliomance]

The shop pays a handful of golds to have someone stand there, or you work on the item after opening hours, or your polymorphed familiar runs it, your clone, your simulacrum,insert whatever. Running a shop got rules in 3.5 and its trivial to do for a mage.

I am confused about the logic people use in this thread really.
Item crafting exist, it is trivial. Either shops exist in certain places or you need to get rid of item creation.

An item worth 24999 gold, trivial. 25001 gold, that got costs attached to it.

How many here actually use the rules for max price of an item in a settlement?

Crafting magic items costs XP. The only way to gain XP at a useful rate is by adventuring. Thus, crafting magic items is unsustainable for anyone who isn't a full time adventurer.

[ryu]

Crafting magic items costs XP. The only way to gain XP at a useful rate is by adventuring. Thus, crafting magic items is unsustainable for anyone who isn't a full time adventurer.

Or a brothel owner, or a torture master, or someone who helps out terminally ill poor people by letting them convert pain to pleasure and ambrosia... Need I go on with cheap Xperia substitute acquiring methods?

[Talya]

Maybe its my roots as a video game RPG player first, tabletop game player second, but I love my Dueling Spiked Gauntlets +1 or Vorpal Katanas +5...

Gearing does feel like a part of character progression, to me. Same as picking feats and skills and spells.


See, I hate that in video games, and I hate it in P&PRPGs. IRL, it is your innate skills, talents, ability, and experience that make you win or lose -- the quality of your equipment is only a minor factor. Video games always make me feel like my character is nothing without their gear...that the "clothes make the man," in a quite literal way.

It's one thing I love about Vow of Poverty, and wish it was better designed to be effective -- it gets you off the equipment treadmill and should make you entirely self-sufficient, not relying on gadgets and gimmicks.

However, VOP doesn't really work for most characters, so it's not that relevant.

[awa]

i see you are assuming that high level wizards with access to wish have no goals besides making magic items for low level adventures. very few published setting assume there are that many 17+ level wizards with nothing better to do but outfit random adventurers.
or you are assuming wish abuse which falls back into the breaks most settings problem.

i'm not saying you cant have a magic item shop by raw i'm saying its not a logical or even plausible outcome in most standard settings.

just wishing for money is faster and more efficient use of wish then creating magic items for sale.

[ericgrau]

Crafting magic items costs XP. The only way to gain XP at a useful rate is by adventuring. Thus, crafting magic items is unsustainable for anyone who isn't a full time adventurer.

Or former adventurer or mercenary or etc. You gotta be a high level caster anyway, and that must have taken experience. The xp cost is really low so you can keep it up for quite a while without adventuring or you can go out and slay a minor threat now and then.

And 500 gold a day is a lot of money to get without risking your life. They probably jump at the chance when an adventurer comes into town and says "here, craft this for me." No sitting on an item for years until the right adventurer comes along, just boom instant cash.

[Raven777]

See, I hate that in video games, and I hate it in P&PRPGs. IRL, it is your innate skills, talents, ability, and experience that make you win or lose -- the quality of your equipment is only a minor factor. Video games always make me feel like my character is nothing without their gear...that the "clothes make the man," in a quite literal way.

It's one thing I love about Vow of Poverty, and wish it was better designed to be effective -- it gets you off the equipment treadmill and should make you entirely self-sufficient, not relying on gadgets and gimmicks.

However, VOP doesn't really work for most characters, so it's not that relevant.

But VOP won't give you cool stuff like Alter Self at will (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/hat-of-disguise) (permanent +2 to Str or Agi + Darkvision, plus change your looks on the fly), or the ability to cast from Scrolls as if you knew the spell yourself (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic), or constant Misdirection and Scry awareness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/sin-runes/rune-of-the-inscrutable-one)... It's knowing that these items exist and that they scream "use me!" that I find rewarding as a player. It has nothing to do with my character's feelings. They're my doll. They are mine to play with as I design.

[Sewercop]

Crafting magic items costs XP. The only way to gain XP at a useful rate is by adventuring. Thus, crafting magic items is unsustainable for anyone who isn't a full time adventurer.

Xp is trivial to bypass, wizards even published an article to bypass it.


i see you are assuming that high level wizards with access to wish have no goals besides making magic items for low level adventures. very few published setting assume there are that many 17+ level wizards with nothing better to do but outfit random adventurers.
or you are assuming wish abuse which falls back into the breaks most settings problem.

i'm not saying you cant have a magic item shop by raw i'm saying its not a logical or even plausible outcome in most standard settings.

just wishing for money is faster and more efficient use of wish then creating magic items for sale.

It is the logical outcome in every setting that adheres to 3.5 rules.
I would like you to explain why it is not plausible.

They are not outfitting people for fun, it is called keeping a tab on future problems aka the players or other adventurers.

When you can have an army of yourself,your own plane,node,mythal,fortress of doom etc people sometimes wonder why they keep adventuring or do anything at all. Boredom was my answer. That and hobbies.

I once was asked why my character opend a shop with his simulacrum?
To make sure i can get rid of future problems before they become a problem. Hunting down high level casters are dangerous I prefer to kill them before they become annoying was my answer.

[Eladrinblade]

So, I ask, why would someone choose to run a 3.5e DnD game and at the same time reject the concept of a magic item shop?

It's metagamey, and I don't like the fluff either. "Adventurers" being a common profession is something I don't like. I think that a soldier, a guild-thief, a mage, priest, a wandering minstrel, and a woodsman all teaming up to go beat up monsters and loot dungeons should just be a rare thing. Now yes, the D&D world is somewhat magic-marty, but just barely. Magic-users with item-creation feats do make stuff just to sell it sometimes, but there isn't a big market for it, and it's a dangerous business (think of the kind of thieves it attracts). The type of guard you'd need to protect a shop like that would be better off going out to save the world, and by the time you got enough traps and defenses in place to protect your goods, you've spent more than you'd likely ever make.

If players want a particular item, they can go find people who can make it and pay them to do it (or make it themselves), but there shouldn't be a shop there just for them. If you're playing eberron, then who cares, but in most worlds, I think this is true.

[Svata]

Not a valid thing, golems aren't living or breathing. They also have spell immunity, so you couldn't place a telepathic bond on golems to begin with, also the Ice Assassin can't be improved or become more powerful, so you can't give them such an enhancement either
:

Spell Immunity in 3.5 is explicitly arbitrarily high Spell Resistance, which is why SR:No spells get around it. SR can be voluntarily lowered. It is stated that immunities can be lowered as well (elven immunity to Sleep spells is the most cited example). And show me where it says that IAs can't be "improved"


True Mind Switch with a thing that has no mind? Interesting...tell me more.

And where Rudimentary Intelligence Shadesteel Golems are mindless.



Crafting magic items costs XP. The only way to gain XP at a useful rate is by adventuring. Thus, crafting magic items is unsustainable for anyone who isn't a full time adventurer.


*cough*thought bottle*cough*

[Talya]

But VOP won't give you cool stuff like Alter Self at will (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/hat-of-disguise) (permanent +2 to Str or Agi + Darkvision, plus change your looks on the fly), or the ability to cast from Scrolls as if you knew the spell yourself (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic), or constant Misdirection and Scry awareness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/sin-runes/rune-of-the-inscrutable-one)... It's knowing that these items exist and that they scream "use me!" that I find rewarding as a player. It has nothing to do with my character's feelings. They're my doll. They are mine to play with as I design.


I think you kinda missed the point that I said VOP doesn't adequately fill the gear gap, but I like the concept of being badass without needing any gear at all.

[Brookshw]

I have the resources to acquire it, because my character's customization is my business, not the DM's.

One of the things I loved when 3.0 came out was the introduction of feats, suddenly fighter a and b were more distinct than one had a sword, the other an axe. Customization is definitely great. But the DM does have to plan encounters around what you have access to, what challenges they can appropriately provide, and keep an eye out that the party is balanced so everyone feels that they enjoy the game so I don't see how what you have access to is none of their business.

[awa]

Sewercop if you fail to see how epic wizard (or wizards) with army of clones and his own dimension acting as merchants all over the world creating magic items for low level adventures for the purpose of keeping an eye on them is substantially different then the default d&d setting then i don't believe any further discussion is going to be fruitful.

I'm not planing on debating what the plausible outcome of a pure raw world would be but in my opinion it is a lot of craters possible filled with undead not bored wizard merchants.

[Emperor Tippy]

IRL, it is your innate skills, talents, ability, and experience that make you win or lose -- the quality of your equipment is only a minor factor.
That's not even remotely true. Equipment and tools are a massive factor in real life. I could hand you a sniper rifle right now that could be given to someone who has never fired a gun before in his life and with a five minute tutorial have said individual making thousand yard X ring shots 99.9% of the time (we actually have one down in the lab for testing and tinkering that does just that).

Our modern commercial airplanes are fully capable of taking off, flying to their destination, and landing with no more pilot input then picking the destination airport out of a database. The vast majority of every flight is done under autopilot today.

Most identity theft and "hacking" is not done by particularly skilled individuals, it is done by amateurs who download or use cracking programs written by experts. There exist tools which will crack a website basically with a single mouse click. Most any website. There are USB sticks that all you have to do is plug into a computer and you will have full administrator access, or ones that you plug in and will copy all files having to do with a given subject before wiping out any trace that the USB stick was ever used, and do this with no human interaction beyond plugging in the stick.

Modern cars are stolen by people with smartphones or laptops and specific programs. Programs that they didn't write but bought for a couple thousand bucks. All they have to do is punch in the make, model, and year of the car (at most) before pressing a button and the doors unlock, the alarm is disabled, and the car turns on.

Stock trading is now done with virtually no human interaction.

We are even beta testing software that will automate writing fiction books. You pick the target demographic and can (optionally) choose some basic plot or character points (male/female protagonist/villain, genre, basic plot, ext) and then the program writes out the whole book. We have made a fair amount of money selling those books as e-books on Amazon. The version to do fully automated TV shows is in the Alpha stages. Give it 15 years and we won't need actors, scenes, or even writers for movies.

More than 50% of all patents filed for in the US any more are the result of computer programs using evolutionary algorithms.

Food production is theoretically at the point now where it can actually be fully automated. As in no farmers necessary. And in a 200 year period we went from needing somewhere around 50% of the population involved in food production down to less than 1%.

Individual skill matters, it matters a whole lot, but tools and equipment are skill multiplies that have exponential or even greater effects. You can be the greatest swordsman and personal combatant who ever lived. Able to take 20 or more men in a fight, stealthy enough to ghost ninja, and yet if I have a tank with satellite surveillance, drone support, and modern acoustic sensors then a basic familiarization course is enough for me to beat you pretty much every single time. My skills are nothing compared to yours but I have far superior equipment that gives me capabilities that you will never have no matter how skilled you are.

[awa]

Nothing you have said is wrong but for many people that is not the kind of game we want to play.

Many people want to win because they were better or fought harder ect not because they had more money and bought better toys. We live in a world where the rich almost always win we don't necessarily want to play there to.

(note i said many people so if you like to win because you purchased better guns that's fine but irreverent.

[Heliomance]

*cough*thought bottle*cough*

is ludicrously overpowered at anything other than the highest optimisation levels. They fit in just fine to the Tippyverse, but thought bottles have no place at the more common levels of play.

[Emperor Tippy]

Nothing you have said is wrong but for many people that is not the kind of game we want to play.

Many people want to win because they were better or fought harder ect not because they had more money and bought better toys. We live in a world where the rich almost always win we don't necessarily want to play there to.

(note i said many people so if you like to win because you purchased better guns that's fine but irreverent.

Both in game and in real life I like to win. How that win is achieved is secondary.

I made a level 20 character recently who's only non fluff magic item's were a Belt of Magnificence, a Necklace of Adaption with some Devoted Spirit Amulets stapled onto it, and two Gloves of the Master Strategist. Not even fake soulmeld items,

I have no problem with playing without magic items or wanting to play a character who is so skilled that he doesn't need any items (and I do it fairly regularly because I hate having to item dive for higher level characters, it's too much of a pain and if I actually need or want a given item then I can just get it Wished up) but absent fairly specific character builds (most of which are very caster heavy), the standard 3.5 game does not mechanically support playing without magic items.

[DSmaster21]

I generate the available magic items as randomly as I can and make the players roleplay and such to search for them. Some of those items are pretty horrible like the 5-charge Light and 10-charge Expeditious Retreat Staff (Staves get 10 charges altogether and you can only recharge it by 1 charge a day(Basically you have to use a full 10 charges to cast a utility spell or 5 for a spell that you can cast unlimited times otherwise for no cost)) Now this staff only cost 800 gp but it was so useless (in perspective with other better staves or even a wand of the two spells (Heck wands are usable by non-casters without much trouble)). I did drop hints to the players but they thought that any staff that cheap is worth it.

[Svata]

is ludicrously overpowered at anything other than the highest optimisation levels. They fit in just fine to the Tippyverse, but thought bottles have no place at the more common levels of play.

Be that as it may, they are one of the few reasonable options for retired adventurers who would be the ones to craft the items. I'm not saying give them to the PCs, just to the item crafters behind the scenes. Make them keyed to the specific person so that the PCs can't just steal them.

[Pickford]

It is, nevertheless, completely dependent on a society and that society's moors. Organized society is, in itself, a lawful idea.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that only lawful people can be considered honorable. Neutral and even chaotic people can be considered honorable under the second variation I mentioned. That doesn't change the fact that honor itself is a lawful concept.

A chaotic person gets there by simply holding the same values that his society idealizes with little concern for what people think or tradition.... and not getting caught doing things that would be frowned upon.

I'm saying even the Lawful Evil could simply pay lip service whilst being dishonorable (i.e. using undetectable poison in duels to the death over a point of honor).


edit: Agree with Tippy 100% in the above posting. Tools are the force multiplier.

[Talya]

That's not even remotely true. Equipment and tools are a massive factor in real life. I could hand you a sniper rifle right now that could be given to someone who has never fired a gun before in his life and with a five minute tutorial have said individual making thousand yard X ring shots 99.9% of the time (we actually have one down in the lab for testing and tinkering that does just that).

You're not comparing apples to apples.

Take a common iron longsword forged by a nobody blacksmith in medieval Germany. Now take an exquisite masterpiece of perfect balance forged with high quality steel by the best blacksmith who ever lived.

Give the former to the best swordsman ever to live. Give the latter to a 15 year old in training.

Put them against each other. How much does the sword matter?

The world record sniper kill in combat was for a time held by a Canadian sniper from Newfoundland who was using an inferior rifle than the American snipers working in the same part of Afghanistan.

Take Rafael Nadal's $200 Babolat AeroPro Drive racquet away from him, and give it to me. Give Nadal a $30 cheap racquet from Wal-mart. Hey, i know how to play tennis. It should make us even, right?

He'd still kick my ass.


IRL, the quality of gear only starts to make a noticeable difference when you're talking about different eras, or putting two people who are otherwise pretty evenly matched against each other. In video games and frequently, in tabletop RPGs, the characters are actually just an empty shell, a mannequin on which to hang the real character, the gear.

[Jgosse]

give a level 1 warrior a +5/flaming,frost,shock,keen mighty cleaving rapier that has intelligence and the ability to heal him and resurrect him, +5 light fortification invulnerable mithral full plate, +5 heavy steal shield with sr19, a +6 belt of champions, a +5 belt of resistance, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 ring of deflection, and what else you can think of . now turn him lose and see how much skill matters .

If the party has to go questing every time they want to get a new item the story will never go anywhere.

[Talya]

give a level 1 warrior a +5/flaming,frost,shock,keen mighty cleaving rapier that has intelligence and the ability to heal him and resurrect him, +5 light fortification invulnerable mithral full plate, +5 heavy steal shield with sr19, a +6 belt of champions, a +5 belt of resistance, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 ring of deflection, and what else you can think of . now turn him lose and see how much skill matters .


He'd be killing PC characters 5 levels his senior.

[AlltheBooks]

For my groups depends on what kind of campaign the players want. Sometimes it's tolkieny low magic and equipment. Sometimes it's not.

D&D lends itself to the MM. Sigil as been around for a while and you can get anything there, for a price and rarely is it gold. People concentrate on the prime and forget the immortal, genius beings that have alien thought processes, plenty of time on their hands and inscrutable goals. That's where the items come from.

Also meatbags are greedy and have tasty souls.

My biggest problem with items in D&D is knowledge. I really don't like how 3.5 deals with what the character knows even outside of items.

I would totally let StabbyMcStabberson head to the local clergy/guildhouse/military branch/spooky tower and commission (for a lot of cash, favours and life energy) some Mirrored Plate of the Smoking Titan. What is that you ask? I don't know but I allow custom items.

Thing is, how does Stabby know all those magical effects and which ones combine the right way? I would say a soldier knows his gear but the way D&D handles knowledge of things it get's awkward by RAW. Good thing the game is putty and you can play the way you want phew!

[Jgosse]

You're not comparing apples to apples.

The world record sniper kill in combat was for a time held by a Canadian sniper from Newfoundland who was using an inferior rifle than the American snipers working in the same part of Afghanistan.



Makes me happy when people give Newfoundlanders credit or you know even know about Newfoundland at all.

[Seerow]

He'd be killing PC characters 5 levels his senior.

Any enemy at that level who managed to land a solid hit on him would kill him instantly, regardless of the gear. Meanwhile his damage, even with the super enchants on his weapon, isn't going to be enough to one shot a 5th-6th level character.

[Friv]

You're not comparing apples to apples.

Take a common iron longsword forged by a nobody blacksmith in medieval Germany. Now take an exquisite masterpiece of perfect balance forged with high quality steel by the best blacksmith who ever lived.

Give the former to the best swordsman ever to live. Give the latter to a 15 year old in training.

Put them against each other. How much does the sword matter?

Magic items aren't just "normal weapons, but better".

A Level 10 Fighter with a common greatsword and plate mail going toe-to-toe with a Level 1 Warrior with a +5 Keen Vorpal Greatsword and +5 Mithral Plate Mail is going to murder him and take his stuff. He has a better than average chance of killing the poor warrior before that guy can even swing his sword.

It would take the weird and wacky stuff to make that kind of a mismatch something the warrior would have a non-negligible chance at.

[ryu]

Any enemy at that level who managed to land a solid hit on him would kill him instantly, regardless of the gear. Meanwhile his damage, even with the super enchants on his weapon, isn't going to be enough to one shot a 5th-6th level character.

Which doesn't matter as the bloody thing was called out intelligent and fully capable of resting and healing him.

[Talya]

Makes me happy when people give Newfoundlanders credit or you know even know about Newfoundland at all.

<-Canadian. :smallbiggrin:

[hymer]

Seems to me the conversation is veering off the point. Who'd have thunk it? :smallbiggrin:
Talya's point, I believe, was that the design decision of making magical items not only important, but mandatory, is detrimental to the image of the PCs being heroic. Their gear is doing much/most of the heavy lifting for them (long argument about casters/maneouvres/inspiration points/etc. notwithstanding), in fact they couldn't do this at all without their many crutches. And a less heroic fellow with bettter stuff could do it quite easily. The gear becomes too great a factor according to this view.

@ Newfoundland: I thought it was a dog? Just kidding.

[Seerow]

Which doesn't matter as the bloody thing was called out intelligent and fully capable of resting and healing him.

Healing doesn't help when you get killed in one shot. The only rule I can find for intelligent items capable of resurrection are True Rez 1/month as a Special Purpose dedicated power. That adds 200k gold on top of whatever it's normally worth.

So at this point you're spending most likely more than a 20th level character's wealth by level... to be able to get killed twice against a 5th-6th level character.

[Sewercop]

Sewercop if you fail to see how epic wizard (or wizards) with army of clones and his own dimension acting as merchants all over the world creating magic items for low level adventures for the purpose of keeping an eye on them is substantially different then the default d&d setting then i don't believe any further discussion is going to be fruitful.

I'm not planing on debating what the plausible outcome of a pure raw world would be but in my opinion it is a lot of craters possible filled with undead not bored wizard merchants.

It is different, but it is more logical immersion wise then to pretend shops dont exist. The basic setting assume people can`t see the forest due to a tree.

[ryu]

Healing doesn't help when you get killed in one shot. The only rule I can find for intelligent items capable of resurrection are True Rez 1/month as a Special Purpose dedicated power. That adds 200k gold on top of whatever it's normally worth.

So at this point you're spending most likely more than a 20th level character's wealth by level... to be able to get killed twice against a 5th-6th level character.

Except the poster didn't place a limit while describing the tool. He simply stated that it had res effects.

[Emperor Tippy]

You're not comparing apples to apples.

Take a common iron longsword forged by a nobody blacksmith in medieval Germany. Now take an exquisite masterpiece of perfect balance forged with high quality steel by the best blacksmith who ever lived.

Give the former to the best swordsman ever to live. Give the latter to a 15 year old in training.

Put them against each other. How much does the sword matter?
That is the difference between a masterwork sword and a regular sword in D&D.

A better comparison is pistols, rifles, or armor. Give the best pistol shot of all time a single shot pistol from the Renaissance and then give a modern police officer his service weapon. The police officer will make the best pistol shot of all time look like a poor student. His shots will be orders of magnitude more accurate at more than twice the range and with more stopping power.

Or give the best sniper of all time a WW1 bolt action and give a guy in day one of sniper school the rifle that is sitting down in my lab. That kid in his first day of sniper training will out-shoot the best sniper of all time.

Or take the best that modern technology can do for armor (carbon fiber, sheer thickening solutions, gel shock absorption padding with temperature control, custom designed and fit to the individual) and then compare it to regular armor from the middle ages. We can make armor that you can pretty much wail on for an hour or more with a warhammer without giving the guy wearing it much more than a few bruises.

Or compare a telescope from the 1700's with a modern pair of scout glasses. The modern tech has upwards of ten times the range, is clearer, can work at night, can see heat, can record everything seen for later review, can tell you the exact distance to anything you see, can tell you how the wind is moving, can tell you your exact coordinates down to a square foot and the exact coordinates of what you are looking at, and can even instantly designate the target for destruction by a five hundred pound bomb dropped from an F-22 that is over a hundred miles away and will arrive within a minute and within 6 inches of where you wanted it.

Or compare GPS to a sextant. Or cellphones to semaphores. Or satellite communication to the telegraph.

These are the kind of things that are fair comparisons between magical and non magical items in D&D.


The world record sniper kill in combat was for a time held by a Canadian sniper from Newfoundland who was using an inferior rifle than the American snipers working in the same part of Afghanistan.
And the Canadian freely admitted that the shot was largely luck. He was skilled but he managed to roll that natural 20 on the shot at 10 range increments where he was getting -20 to his AB.


Take Rafael Nadal's $200 Babolat AeroPro Drive racquet away from him, and give it to me. Give Nadal a $30 cheap racquet from Wal-mart. Hey, i know how to play tennis. It should make us even, right?

He'd still kick my ass.
And that is the difference between masterwork and +1 (almost exactly actually). The price difference between a +1 sword and a +10 sword is a hundred times. The +10 sword costs more than a galleon. The difference between a regular dagger and a +10 dagger is literally a factor of one hundred thousand.

In real life terms that would be the same difference as between a decent new pistol and an F-22. Or between a good remote controlled toy Abrams MBT and a real M1A2.

Or between a good Estes hobby rocket kit and the cost SpaceX charges to put a Falcon's maximum load in orbit.


IRL, the quality of gear only starts to make a noticeable difference when you're talking about different eras, or putting two people who are otherwise pretty evenly matched against each other. In video games and frequently, in tabletop RPGs, the characters are actually just an empty shell, a mannequin on which to hang the real character, the gear.
This really isn't true. In real life gear matters a hell of a lot, although the difference becomes most noticeable when comparing someone decently skilled but with the top of the line gear against someone who is incredibly skilled but with crap gear or when comparing someone who is incredibly skilled and has top of the line gear against the average.

Tools and items are skill multipliers that often have minimum skill requirements to use and maximum benefits.

[Seerow]

Except the poster didn't place a limit while describing the tool. He simply stated that it had res effects.

I'm assuming he's actually using intelligent magic items within the rules, not making up some artifact with unlimited power. The best you're going to get out of an intelligent magic item, by the book, is 1/month. And even that pushes it to stupid expensive territory.

If you were going to boost it up to 1/day using some sort of custom rules, you're looking at minimum 6million GP. Just for that. At will? Probably more like 60million.

When you're relying on an item worth more than a high epic character is likely to have, then your argument probably has a flaw somewhere.

[Brookshw]

I'm assuming he's actually using intelligent magic items within the rules, not making up some artifact with unlimited power. The best you're going to get out of an intelligent magic item, by the book, is 1/month. And even that pushes it to stupid expensive territory.

If you were going to boost it up to 1/day using some sort of custom rules, you're looking at minimum 6million GP. Just for that. At will? Probably more like 60million.

When you're relying on an item worth more than a high epic character is likely to have, then your argument probably has a flaw somewhere.

Standard action: attack.
Move action pick up sword.
Win?

[Pickford]

Also, if we're talking greatest sniper ever, that's pretty clearly simo hayha. With someone like that, it's a question of: What could he have done with modern gear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

[Talya]

Most of your examples, Tippy, compare gear from different eras.

I do believe that masterwork vs. nonmasterwork of the same item is the best comparison here, as magic does not exist in real life.

[ryu]

Most of your examples, Tippy, compare gear from different eras.

I do believe that masterwork vs. nonmasterwork of the same item is the best comparison here, as magic does not exist in real life.

Many of the effects that can only be done with magic are still blatantly possible if not commonplace though.

[Emperor Tippy]

Most of your examples, Tippy, compare gear from different eras.
Because that is necessary to get the same kind of difference between magical and non magical gear. When talking weapons the price difference between a dagger and a +10 dagger is the same as the price difference between a modern pistol and an F-22. The most expensive pistol ever made doesn't even come close to being a fair comparison.

This is literally the comparison between the model rocket set that I bought for my cousin for his birthday last year and a Falcon 9 Rocket putting its maximum payload into orbit.

Or the difference between buying an actual SR-71 Blackbird and an SR-71 model RC airplane.


I do believe that masterwork vs. nonmasterwork of the same item is the best comparison here, as magic does not exist in real life.
No, it's a horribly bad comparison. Masterwork is +1 to hit, with a weapon it negates a quarter of the non proficiency penalty. For a 5th level Fighter its a 20% improvement over his base attack bonus.

The best swordsman who ever lived in real life was comparable to that 5th level Fighter. A guy who has never touched a sword before in his life could pick up a +10 Sword and give that greatest swordsman who has ever lived a fairly even fight.

[Seerow]

Because that is necessary to get the same kind of difference between magical and non magical gear. When talking weapons the price difference between a dagger and a +10 dagger is the same as the price difference between a modern pistol and an F-22. The most expensive pistol ever made doesn't even come close to being a fair comparison.

This is literally the comparison between the model rocket set that I bought for my cousin for his birthday last year and a Falcon 9 Rocket putting its maximum payload into orbit.

Or the difference between buying an actual SR-71 Blackbird and an SR-71 model RC airplane.

I think at some point we started conflating the monetary value of something with its actual worth.

A +10 dagger may in fact cost billions of times more than a normal dagger. But in practice? It'll hit more often, and deal more damage... but not billions of times more.

Absolute best case scenario, you take someone from hitting on a natural 20 only and dealing 1d4-3 damage (average: .05 damage per round) to hitting on a 10 and dealing 1d4+7 damage (average: 5 damage per round). It's roughly 100 times more effective, in the absolute best case scenario.

[killem2]

The best swordsman who ever lived in real life was comparable to that 5th level Fighter. A guy who has never touched a sword before in his life could pick up a +10 Sword and give that greatest swordsman who has ever lived a fairly even fight.

But how much of that +10 is representing accuracy of hitting the target vs just out right ignoring or outright outclassing the armor class of his target. :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

But how much of that +10 is representing accuracy of hitting the target vs just out right ignoring or outright outclassing the armor class of his target. :smallbiggrin:

Attack Bonus represents it all.

Give someone a +10 pistol and put them on a target range and the guy who has never touched a gun before in his life will shoot about as well as the best real life pistol shot who has ever lived. In the hands of someone who actually has had basic familiarization with the pistol (represented by weapon proficiency), that +10 Pistol will out-shoot the best pistol user of all time consistently.

That +10 Armor might be physically indestructible and resistant to damage but it also twists probability and forces its wearer to dodge attacks. This is armor so good that the average man off the street can put on that +10 Leather armor, stand 10 feet away from a police officer with his service weapon and about 95% of the police officer's shots will do no damage because they either missed or because the leather is so strong that no energy got through

[Telok]

Lo, those many years ago, when TSR folded and WotC bought them a new edition of D&D was created. And in this new edition there were new things, like someone robbing the dragons and stealing all thier gold.

Seriously, dragons are poor and impoverished in 3.5e. In AD&D you could off an adult green dragon, haul away a 30,000 gold in a pair of wagons, and become famous heroes by giving the silver and copper to the local townspeople. That a dragon was sleeping on a pile of treasure actually meant something. These days the same dragon will have maybe two gallons of gold, little enough to hide under a rather small boulder and light enough for a barbarian to walk off with it in a box. And why is this? Because WotC made money equal combat power.

No longer will adventurers throw lavish parties, donate tons of money to charitable causes, buy titles and lands, or even purchase a new pair of pants. No, they are saving up for another +1 to some combat stat. I have players who won't even look at a quest unless there is a monetary or magic item reward involved. They swim rivers to avoid toll bridges, blow off mayors and powerful mages who need help, and won't chase down the demon they released because; "There's no money in it."

In 3.5e money equals combat power which equals survival. The magic mart is needed for this to work. Because of the magic mart the characters can never be given more money than the price of the magic items they are supposed to have. This makes gaining more money a primary concern of the characters and makes the game more about a band of hired mercenaries and less about a group of heroes. People don't build temples or become lords and heroes anymore, they go shopping instead

That is why I dislike magic marts. They de-emphasize being a hero and make dragon's hoards pathetically small.

[Talya]

Lo, those many years ago, when TSR folded and WotC bought them a new edition of D&D was created. And in this new edition there were new things, like someone robbing the dragons and stealing all thier gold.

Seriously, dragons are poor and impoverished in 3.5e. In AD&D you could off an adult green dragon, haul away a 30,000 gold in a pair of wagons, and become famous heroes by giving the silver and copper to the local townspeople. That a dragon was sleeping on a pile of treasure actually meant something. These days the same dragon will have maybe two gallons of gold, little enough to hide under a rather small boulder and light enough for a barbarian to walk off with it in a box. And why is this? Because WotC made money equal combat power.

No longer will adventurers throw lavish parties, donate tons of money to charitable causes, buy titles and lands, or even purchase a new pair of pants. No, they are saving up for another +1 to some combat stat. I have players who won't even look at a quest unless there is a monetary or magic item reward involved. They swim rivers to avoid toll bridges, blow off mayors and powerful mages who need help, and won't chase down the demon they released because; "There's no money in it."

In 3.5e money equals combat power which equals survival. The magic mart is needed for this to work. Because of the magic mart the characters can never be given more money than the price of the magic items they are supposed to have. This makes gaining more money a primary concern of the characters and makes the game more about a band of hired mercenaries and less about a group of heroes. People don't build temples or become lords and heroes anymore, they go shopping instead

That is why I dislike magic marts. They de-emphasize being a hero and make dragon's hoards pathetically small.

I...had never considered that.

It's a very good point.


No, it's a horribly bad comparison. Masterwork is +1 to hit, with a weapon it negates a quarter of the non proficiency penalty. For a 5th level Fighter its a 20% improvement over his base attack bonus.

The best swordsman who ever lived in real life was comparable to that 5th level Fighter. A guy who has never touched a sword before in his life could pick up a +10 Sword and give that greatest swordsman who has ever lived a fairly even fight.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but that's what I've been complaining about. The gear is more important than the person weilding it. In real life, that difference never existed in the same era with the same type of gear.

You're arguing circularly that I'm wrong, because magic items are the equivalent of a pointed stick vs. a tank, whem I'm saying that that is a big part of the problem - characters are too dependant on gear.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm saying even the Lawful Evil could simply pay lip service whilst being dishonorable (i.e. using undetectable poison in duels to the death over a point of honor).


edit: Agree with Tippy 100% in the above posting. Tools are the force multiplier.

And yet, as long as he doesn't get caught, he'll still be considered an honorable person by his fellows. If we're instead using the codified system of behavior model of honor, he's clearly taking chaotic actions and may not remain a lawful character.

[Thurbane]

Be that as it may, they are one of the few reasonable options for retired adventurers who would be the ones to craft the items. I'm not saying give them to the PCs, just to the item crafters behind the scenes. Make them keyed to the specific person so that the PCs can't just steal them.
See, seems weird to me that people would be OK with such a metagamey item being in their setting simply because a 1st party book says it exists, but then simultaneously hand waive some cheesy rules so the PCs can't get at it.

I'm also curious (as a general point, not to Svata in particular), what do these demi-god like archmages who have nothing better to do with their time than take creation requests and churn out items on some kind of magical production line actually do with these literal mountains of coin they acquire? Apart from plow it back into more creation costs, that is. No, really. Once you've amassed enough wealth to literally buy and sell continents, what possible motivation do you have to make items then? Even the most eccentric of these crafters could surely find something a little more interesting as a hobby.

I know by RAW places like the Tippyverse can exist, but they would so badly break my immersion in the game world I could not enjoy playing in them. This isn't an indictment on people who do play in these settings, just that it is completely incompatible with my own playstyle (or of anyone I game with on a regular basis).

[ryu]

See, seems weird to me that people would be OK with such a metagamey item being in their setting simply because a 1st party book says it exists, but then simultaneously hand waive some cheesy rules so the PCs can't get at it.

I'm also curious (as a general point, not to Svata in particular), what do these demi-god like archmages who have nothing better to do with their time than take creation requests and churn out items on some kind of magical production line actually do with these literal mountains of coin they acquire? Apart from plow it back into more creation costs, that is. No, really. Once you've amassed enough wealth to literally buy and sell continents, what possible motivation do you have to make items then? Even the most eccentric of these crafters could surely find something a little more interesting as a hobby.

I know by RAW places like the Tippyverse can exist, but they would so badly break my immersion in the game world I could not enjoy playing in them. This isn't an indictment on people who do play in these settings, just that it is completely incompatible with my own playstyle (or of anyone I game with on a regular basis).

Same thing real people who are rich but still work for more money are motivated by. Economy is a game and money is the score tracker. I should know. I played Recettear.

[Svata]

*snip*

It does seem a bit ridiculous, but, honestly, I think its what WotC expected to be the norm.

And, honestly, they probably craft items for "heroes" to use so they don't have to do any real work and can sit inside their comfortable mage towers all day.

[Thurbane]

Same thing real people who are rich but still work for more money are motivated by. Economy is a game and money is the score tracker. I should know. I played Recettear.
I should point out that I have always considered these people odd, at best. Hopefully without straying into forbidden discussion territory, capitalism tends to nurture this mentality. Me? If I had enough money to comfortably retire on, I'd do it on a heartbeat and concentrate on the many things I cannot devote enough of my life to currently because I have to work to survive.

Doubly so if I had the powers to bend and warp reality to my will - I couldn't imagine anything more banal than slaving over a hot cauldron or anvil to whip up yet another set of Gauntlets of Ogre Power for some snot-nosed lowby adventurers! :smalltongue:

[ryu]

I should point out that I have always considered these people odd, at best. Hopefully without straying into forbidden discussion territory, capitalism tends to nurture this mentality. Me? If I had enough money to comfortably retire on, I'd do it on a heartbeat and concentrate on the many things I cannot devote enough of my life to currently because I have to work to survive.

Doubly so if I had the powers to bend and warp reality to my will - I couldn't imagine anything more banal than slaving over a hot cauldron or anvil to whip up yet another set of Gauntlets of Ogre Power for some snot-nosed lowby adventurers! :smalltongue:

Clearly the fact that an entire game you have to buy exists just to simulate that situation and draw out that mentality means that a person expressing it isn't realistic.

[Thurbane]

Clearly the fact that an entire game you have to buy exists just to simulate that situation and draw out that mentality means that a person expressing it isn't realistic.
I'm not sure I follow your point here?

[Talya]

It does seem a bit ridiculous, but, honestly, I think its what WotC expected to be the norm.


I'm pretty sure they expected no such thing.


I believe D&D was actually designed under the assumption that most people would be starting at level 1, that loot would be organicly rolled and that the DM would keep careful reign on what magical items people could outright purchase. Player crafters would be hobbled by the experience cost, and reluctant to customize everyone's gear to their preference, and overall, magic would still be rare and feel magical.

Of course, they also expected wizards to always be casting spells like fireball, clerics would be healing, and fighters would be the party workhorses. We know how well that worked...

In reality, people tend to start between levels 4 and 8, people buy whatever they want with WBL, and crafters realize "Experience is a river" and that it's impossible to fall that far behind the party with crafting, the Wizard is Batman, clerics are ClericZilla, and fighters are a 1-2 level dip.

[Thurbane]

I'm pretty sure they expected no such thing.
No one can say with authority what the designers intended (other than the designers themselves, of course), but I tend to agree with Talya here.

I personally don't think things like Pun Pun, the psionic sandwich or the Tippyverse were ever envisioned by the designers.

You know, for all I do in fact love about the 3.X system, sometimes topics like this make my yearn to be playing AD&D again.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm also curious (as a general point, not to Svata in particular), what do these demi-god like archmages who have nothing better to do with their time than take creation requests and churn out items on some kind of magical production line actually do with these literal mountains of coin they acquire? Apart from plow it back into more creation costs, that is. No, really. Once you've amassed enough wealth to literally buy and sell continents, what possible motivation do you have to make items then? Even the most eccentric of these crafters could surely find something a little more interesting as a hobby.

I know by RAW places like the Tippyverse can exist, but they would so badly break my immersion in the game world I could not enjoy playing in them. This isn't an indictment on people who do play in these settings, just that it is completely incompatible with my own playstyle (or of anyone I game with on a regular basis).

Two words, my man; magical research.

Independent research for new spells to add to their books, supplies for experimentation, dues for any organization they may belong to, creature comforts such as fancy foods and nice furniture, going out on the town with the ladies/gentlemen, etc all take money. Crafting magic items can fund all of these things relatively safely.

[Heliomance]

Magic items aren't just "normal weapons, but better".

A Level 10 Fighter with a common greatsword and plate mail going toe-to-toe with a Level 1 Warrior with a +5 Keen Vorpal Greatsword and +5 Mithral Plate Mail is going to murder him and take his stuff. He has a better than average chance of killing the poor warrior before that guy can even swing his sword.

It would take the weird and wacky stuff to make that kind of a mismatch something the warrior would have a non-negligible chance at.

Actually, with that set up he would have a non-negligible chance. SMall, but not negligible. He'd have to win initiative - slightly against his favour, but not inconceivable - and then he has about a 2.5% chance of winning. Because if he rolls a natural 20, and confirms it (roughly a 50/50 chance by my quick estimate) that vorpal sword ends the battle for him.


Two words, my man; magical research.

Independent research for new spells to add to their books, supplies for experimentation, dues for any organization they may belong to, creature comforts such as fancy foods and nice furniture, going out on the town with the ladies/gentlemen, etc all take money. Crafting magic items can fund all of these things relatively safely.

Fancy foods, nice furniture, and going out on the town take so little money in comparison to an adventurer's salary that a 10th level adventurer could retire and spend the rest of their life in luxury just on their savings.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fancy foods, nice furniture, and going out on the town take so little money in comparison to an adventurer's salary that a 10th level adventurer could retire and spend the rest of their life in luxury just on their savings.

That depends largely on how hard you party, how big and fancy you want your house to be, and just how much food you go through if you're the type to throw balls and gallas. I also can't help noticing you didn't mention the other two items on my list. Magical research gets hella expensive hella quick.

[Thurbane]

That depends largely on how hard you party, how big and fancy you want your house to be, and just how much food you go through if you're the type to throw balls and gallas. I also can't help noticing you didn't mention the other two items on my list. Magical research gets hella expensive hella quick.
I have to agree with Heliomance here - I can't see any of those things making a serious dent in a high level crafter's wealth reserve.

I'm not intimately familiar with the rules on spell research, but isn't that just a really sketchy set of suggestions rather than hard and fast rules?

Also (and again I am talking high level archmages and such, not 6th level wand crafters) what spell could you want to research anyway, considering the staggering array of powers already at your fingertips?

If pure need for wealth to support your lifestyle was the motivation for retiring from adventuring, I would imagine there are less time consuming ways to do it (chain gating Efreetis or such and wishing for valuables; flooding the market with materials from Wall of Iron and Wall of Salt spells etc.).

[Icewraith]

Economy doesn't really make sense though, since spellcasters can create wealth far more efficiently via transmutation spells than by magic item crafting.

[Emperor Tippy]

Gold really isn't a motivating factor (in any way) for a high level caster. If he wants to a level 17 caster can, in two rounds, literally create out of nothing a city of solid gold. This is done at no cost beyond a single 9th level spell slot.

At the more absurd end, I've played a high level Psion that would (in an average day) toss over his shoulder about 40,000 GP worth of junk. When he wanted a cup he would just create a masterwork cup made out of solid diamond (or whatever other material he was in the mood for) and a wine fit for an emperor. Once done with his drink he would just toss the cup over his shoulder and get on with life. When he wanted a seat it was an adamantium and emerald throne, as was the table. He didn't carry gold or other coinage around with him, if he needed any he would just a few seconds to create however much he needed.

Character like this get into the magic item business not for wealth but for all of those fuzzier things. Favors, information, influence, etc.

[ryu]

I'm not sure I follow your point here?

You were the one claiming that money for the sake of money wasn't a believable motivation. I pointed out with real life examples and personal experience with a game designed to set up those scenarios that yeah it's totally a believable motivation.

[Emperor Tippy]

You were the one claiming that money for the sake of money wasn't a believable motivation. I pointed out with real life examples and personal experience with a game designed to set up those scenarios that yeah it's totally a believable motivation.

Not at high levels. At least not money as gold. Genesis gets a wizard a sphere of gold 360 feet in diameter if he wants one (as just one such example).

[Thurbane]

You were the one claiming that money for the sake of money wasn't a believable motivation. I pointed out with real life examples and personal experience with a game designed to set up those scenarios that yeah it's totally a believable motivation.
Right, I see.

I don't think it's necessarily unbelievable motivation, just one that baffles me on a personal level.

In the real world, there are only so many experiences one can have, even given hundreds of billions of dollars. In a fantasy world where a powerful mortal could be exploring the multiverse, courting the Goddess of Love, creating their own demiplanes, or experience any one of a multitude of fantastic experiences, it makes even less sense to me that you'd want to be stuck in a shop making gear for people. YMMV.

[Tvtyrant]

I have to agree with Heliomance here - I can't see any of those things making a serious dent in a high level crafter's wealth reserve.

I'm not intimately familiar with the rules on spell research, but isn't that just a really sketchy set of suggestions rather than hard and fast rules?

Also (and again I am talking high level archmages and such, not 6th level wand crafters) what spell could you want to research anyway, considering the staggering array of powers already at your fingertips?

If pure need for wealth to support your lifestyle was the motivation for retiring from adventuring, I would imagine there are less time consuming ways to do it (chain gating Efreetis or such and wishing for valuables; flooding the market with materials from Wall of Iron and Wall of Salt spells etc.).

If epic level spells are on the table then they count as something that would cost that much money correct? Although as Tippy mentions it is quite possible to produce infinite wealth independently of selling items, and pay for your epic casting that way.

[Thurbane]

If epic level spells are on the table then they count as something that would cost that much money correct? Although as Tippy mentions it is quite possible to produce infinite wealth independently of selling items, and pay for your epic casting that way.
Quite possibly. To be honest I have barely even glanced at the epic rules - most of our games don't get much past 10th or 11th level.

[ryu]

Not at high levels. At least not money as gold. Genesis gets a wizard a sphere of gold 360 feet in diameter if he wants one (as just one such example).

In normal world it's gold. In tippyverse it's CHITs if I'm remembering properly. Same difference as far as the example is concerned.

Thurbane: All it takes is one adamant crafter among the infinite dimensions to singlehandedly bring about magic mart. Do you understand what happens when a non-zero chance is given infinite trials?

[Emperor Tippy]

If epic level spells are on the table then they count as something that would cost that much money correct? Although as Tippy mentions it is quite possible to produce infinite wealth independently of selling items, and pay for your epic casting that way.

Epic spells worth casting have no (or a very small) GP cost because the spell craft check has been mitigated as low as the DM is willing to allow (RAW you can get it down to 0, many houserule that you can't get it below the base seeds base DC).


In normal world it's gold. In tippyverse it's CHITs if I'm remembering properly. Same difference as far as the example is concerned.
Not really. Gold is meaningless for pretty much all purposes at the levels under discussion because it has no use. Nothing you want can be bought for gold because no one of comparable power/station to you has any problem just creating all of the gold that they could ever want. The Chit works because it is a medium of exchange that can't be trivially created by everyone and their mother on whim.

Imagine in real life if everyone with a regular old printer could print out US dollars (all denominations) that are impossible to tell are fake at whim. Very quickly no one would care, at all, about dollars. They wouldn't be a medium of exchange and they have no practical usage. Some new medium of exchange, some other easily transferable representation of production/labor/work, would be developed that can't be faked up at whim by pretty much anybody who feels like it.

Gold works as a medium of exchange for lower levels and the general population precisely because there exists no easily available method of creating or gaining it and it continues to exist as a medium of exchange at this level because its practically a wholly different society than the one that exists for individuals who do have easily available methods of creating or gaining gold.

[ryu]

Epic spells worth casting have no (or a very small) GP cost because the spell craft check has been mitigated as low as the DM is willing to allow (RAW you can get it down to 0, many houserule that you can't get it below the base seeds base DC).


Not really. Gold is meaningless for pretty much all purposes at the levels under discussion because it has no use. Nothing you want can be bought for gold because no one of comparable power/station to you has any problem just creating all of the gold that they could ever want. The Chit works because it is a medium of exchange that can't be trivially created by everyone and their mother on whim.

Imagine in real life if everyone with a regular old printer could print out US dollars (all denominations) that are impossible to tell are fake at whim. Very quickly no one would care, at all, about dollars. They wouldn't be a medium of exchange and they have no practical usage. Some new medium of exchange, some other easily transferable representation of production/labor/work, would be developed that can't be faked up at whim by pretty much anybody who feels like it.

Gold works as a medium of exchange for lower levels and the general population precisely because there exists no easily available method of creating or gaining it and it continues to exist as a medium of exchange at this level because its practically a wholly different society than the one that exists for individuals who do have easily available methods of creating or gaining gold.

Now imagine a world wherein literally everyone has access to those printers, either for free or at least cheaply, but no one thinks to use them. That is precisely the world where no one thought to invent anything like the Chit and it's the place where we speak in terms of gold even at high level. This is why I made the comparison, and pointed out that it doesn't matter what's in use. So long as there is supply, demand, and a form of currency to trade with the example is valid. It doesn't matter if that currency is gold, silver ala Jade Empire, platinum, chocolate bunnies, yo-yos, weird all CDs, or bottle caps. The example and its underlying principles hold.

[Brookshw]

You were the one claiming that money for the sake of money wasn't a believable motivation. I pointed out with real life examples and personal experience with a game designed to set up those scenarios that yeah it's totally a believable motivation.

Oh, I don't know, I can think of far more rich people who walked away from the pursuit of money, Bill Gates charitable work in Africa and support of innovation, Richard Branson (mighta misspelled that) seems to spend a good amount of time simply doing what's fun. Steve jobs certainly didn't seem to care towards the end about the cash as much as the control and continued improvement of Apple products, Carnegie and Rockefeller institutions, Google pulling out of China for moral reasons despite the massive market opportunities. Or even on this forum Rich has said that one of the reasons he's willing to take stronger moral stances is because he's made enough he's not as worried about offending people. After a certain point money loses its significance in real life.

[ryu]

Oh, I don't know, I can think of far more rich people who walked away from the pursuit of money, Bill Gates charitable work in Africa and support of innovation, Richard Branson (mighta misspelled that) seems to spend a good amount of time simply doing what's fun. Steve jobs certainly didn't seem to care towards the end about the cash as much as the control and continued improvement of Apple products, Carnegie and Rockefeller institutions, Google pulling out of China for moral reasons despite the massive market opportunities. Or even on this forum Rich has said that one of the reasons he's willing to take stronger moral stances is because he's made enough he's not as worried about offending people. After a certain point money loses its significance in real life.

The fact that people exist who don't hold a particular motivation doesn't make that motivation unrealistic. On the contrary its realism is proven the instant you prove ANY significantly sized group of people hold that motivation. Now would you like to seriously argue that there isn't a sizable percentage of rich people that actually do hold that motivation in our world?

[Thurbane]

Thurbane: All it takes is one adamant crafter among the infinite dimensions to singlehandedly bring about magic mart. Do you understand what happens when a non-zero chance is given infinite trials?
Wow, that's somewhat extreme.

I didn't say there is no logical chance Magic Mart's can exist. For that matter, I didn't even say I don't allow them in my own game (I do, in a limited fashion). I was simply airing my views that I have some dislike for the concept. And playing a little devil's advocate in reply to some responses in the thread. :smallwink:

[ryu]

Wow, that's somewhat extreme.

I didn't say there is no logical chance Magic Mart's can exist. For that matter, I didn't even say I don't allow them in my own game (I do, in a limited fashion). I was simply airing my views that I have some dislike for the concept. And playing a little devil's advocate in reply to some responses in the thread. :smallwink:

I'm not merely pointing out that it's ''possible.'' Quite literally the vast majority of published settings and most all the homebrew settings I've played in have planar travel. This brings up the question of directly available infinite dimensions canon to the setting itself. In any setting with planar travel, or that allows space travel allowing for a sample size large enough that it's nearly the same thing on a practical level, there are infinite trials. As we've demonstrated it's a non-zero chance magic mart is inevitable unless the DM is directly altering the rules.

[Brookshw]

The fact that people exist who don't hold a particular motivation doesn't make that motivation unrealistic. On the contrary its realism is proven the instant you prove ANY significantly sized group of people hold that motivation. Now would you like to seriously argue that there isn't a sizable percentage of rich people that actually do hold that motivation in our world?

That somethings proven once its proven so that's proof is a bit circular don't you think?

That many examples provide evidence to the contrary of your position I do find more compelling. And if I were to argue the inverse side I'd argue the intent of the rich isn't to become more rich, its to maintain the status quo, power and control.

[Icewraith]

I'm surprised the Magic Mart isn't even more of a thing, like LE devils all over the place running Soul-Mart or something. They're even willing to make change, will accept fragments of your soul in the hope of eventually gaining a controlling interest, and also deal in favors and services. Combine a major fast food chain, high end brothel, and car dealership or bank and you've basically got Soul-Mart.

[ryu]

That somethings proven once its proven so that's proof is a bit circular don't you think?

That many examples provide evidence to the contrary of your position I do find more compelling. And if I were to argue the inverse side I'd argue the intent of the rich isn't to become more rich, its to maintain the status quo, power and control.

Nothing circular about it. The argument you're against is that rich people desiring more money for the sake of more money is realistic precisely because real people exist which demonstrably hold this motivation. At no point does it argue that all rich people hold the the motivation, or that it is the only motivation. To that end literally any list of rich people not holding the motivation is irrelevant. To hold logical sway against my position you'd have to weaken the effect of the actual evidence of the positive precisely because nothing else you could possibly argue would actually conflict with the premise.

[Brookshw]

Nothing circular about it. The argument you're against is that rich people desiring more money for the sake of more money is realistic precisely because real people exist which demonstrably hold this motivation. At no point does it argue that all rich people hold the the motivation, or that it is the only motivation. To that end literally any list of rich people not holding the motivation is irrelevant. To hold logical sway against my position you'd have to weaken the effect of the actual evidence of the positive precisely because nothing else you could possibly argue would actually conflict with the premise.

Well so far the evidence consists of a game (which admittedly I haven't played) vs. Factual empirical evidence. If you'd like to put up evidence please do so.

[Heliomance]

Slightly off topic, but Tippy, how much extraplanar interaction is there in your standard Points of Light megacities setting? I'm wondering how well the magocracies get along with the fantastically powerful extraplanar beings, and how many of said beings have moved into the Primeside cities.

[ryu]

Well so far the evidence consists of a game (which admittedly I haven't played) vs. Factual empirical evidence. If you'd like to put up evidence please do so.

Well lets start simple and easy to verify shall we? Remember Bobby Kotick with his project ten-dollar and who was directly quoted as desiring only to create new IP to the extent that it could be in his words ''exploited'' to the exclusion of any and all new titles which couldn't guarantee a sequel? Fairly well known. Fairly obviously rich, and can be directly googled if you aren't familiar with him. I can go on with more, but this is the easiest to work with while not getting into subjects I'd really rather never see the light of day in polite company.

[Brookshw]

No one can say with authority what the designers intended (other than the designers themselves, of course)

I completely agree! And thankfully WoTC has addressed this (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4alum/2009august).

One of the great things about that article is the Gygax quote. Want authority? Okay, he was out of the way by the point 3.0 came out but it certainly in my minds lends itself to the best authority of what was expected.

Just as it is important to use forethought and consideration in placing valuable metals and other substances with monsters or otherwise hiding them in dungeon or wilderness, the placement of magic items is a serious matter. Thoughtless placement of powerful magic items has been the ruination of many a campaign. Not only does this cheapen what should be rare and precious, it gives player characters undeserved advancement and empowers them to become virtual rulers of all they survey.

This is in part the fault of this writer, who deeply regrets not taking the time and space in D&D to stress repeatedly the importance of moderation. Powerful magic items were shown after all, on the tables, and a chance for random discovery of these items was given, so the uninitiated DM cannot be severely faulted for merely following what was set before him or her in the rules. Had the whole been prefaced with an admonition to use care and logic in placement or random discovery of magic items, had the intent, meaning, and spirit of the game been more fully explained, much of the give-away aspect of such campaigns would have willingly been squelched by the DMs.

The sad fact is, however, that this was not done, so many campaigns are little more than a joke, something that better DMs jape at and ridicule -- rightly so on the surface -- because of the foolishness of player characters with astronomically high levels of experience and no real playing skill. These god-like characters boast and strut about with retinues of ultra-powerful servants and scores of mighty magic items, artifacts, and relics adorning them as if they were Christmas trees decked out with tinsel and ornaments.

Not only are such "Monty Haul" games a crashing bore for most participants, they are a headache for their DMs as well, for the rules of the game do not provide anything for such play -- no reasonable opponents, no rewards, nothing! The creative DM can, of course, develop a game which extrapolates from the original to allow such play, but this is a monumental task to accomplish with even passable results, and those attempts I have seen have been uniformly dismal.

Now let's look at later books, for example the MiC.
“A player points to an item published in this book or the Dungeon Master’s Guide and asks, ‘Can I buy this?’ The answer should usually be, ‘Yes.’”

Emphasis mine.

Frankly this underlines one of the larger problems I see with the game and that's inconsistent design (well, that and bad editing, writers who seem ignorant of the rules, guess I lump them all together). Example.

In 3.5 we have the skill feats, a +2 to two semi-related skills.
Later on we have item familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) introduced (admittedly as a variant, not a necessary function by any means), a feat that allows some massive buffs to skill. Clearly the latter is the better option if allowed in the game but doesn't the existence of the former seem to indicate that originally the levels of power intended to be available were at a much lower level?

This is the unfortunate nature of the publishing industry (well, any industry really). You need to sell your product. "Publish or Perish" is the axiom, and boy did they.

Let's take another example, the BoVD. This book says straight forward in the opening that it's for DM's, not players, players weren't even supposed to read the book (like THAT was ever going to happen). While the tools in the book were intended for the DM a great many of the magic items and spells were reproduced in later books. So much for that idea, scope drift would be the term in project management.

Now to go back to what any of this has to do with magic items. If we look at the game over time magic items have evolved. Originally magic item creation was never intended to be in the hands of the players originally. So later they realized this broke verisimilitude (do I get a buzz word point for using that word?) and added in a system to allow players to create magic items. However this was intended to have a downside in terms of xp cost so that it wasn't a free for all in the magic item category. This carried over to 3.0/3.5 where they wanted to keep a limitation on this. The first instance I can recall where the ability to bypass the largest drawback of magic item creation (xp cost imo) was introduced in the BoVD (which wasn't ever intended for players)
and bypassing the cost could only be accomplished by carrying out the most vile acts.

Well, now we're up to thought bottles and anyone who wants in can be for little or no real semi-permanent loss.

People are still reading this? Huh, thought I would have lost most back up somewhere in the first paragraph and they'd be typing angry responses by now.

Now that's my problem, that the game was unable to carry a consistent vision across it's content. I can appreciate that things evolve but in the process they didn't bring them successfully to a centered balanced point, they ended up creating more broken things than ever needed to exist (or maybe that was the consistent part and I missed it).

Oh well, my rant.

Disclaimer: The only correct way to play the game is whatever is fun for the people at the table. I’m not casting judgments or saying there should only be one way to play, if everyone at your table is having fun, congratulations, you have now actually managed to beat D&D. I don't want to play in Tippy's universe, but damn if it isn't impressive. This is a gripe about the way they actually built the game, without a consistent sense of vision, and turned it into the lovably broken mess that leaves people arguing for hours on these forums.

[Tvtyrant]

Epic spells worth casting have no (or a very small) GP cost because the spell craft check has been mitigated as low as the DM is willing to allow (RAW you can get it down to 0, many houserule that you can't get it below the base seeds base DC).



But even the base seeds are crazy high. 315,000 base for a spell that summons a critter and then turns it into a Tarrasque, if we reduce the spellcraft just to the base level. I'm not saying it really makes sense, as GP is meaningless at that level, but it still can be used as an argument for item creation in a specific setting.

[Thurbane]

I'm not merely pointing out that it's ''possible.'' Quite literally the vast majority of published settings and most all the homebrew settings I've played in have planar travel. This brings up the question of directly available infinite dimensions canon to the setting itself. In any setting with planar travel, or that allows space travel allowing for a sample size large enough that it's nearly the same thing on a practical level, there are infinite trials. As we've demonstrated it's a non-zero chance magic mart is inevitable unless the DM is directly altering the rules.
Wow.

Just wow.

How do I even reply to that? Anything at all that can happen, anywhere in the multiverse, can and will happen, unless the DM is "altering the rules".

So presumably the PCs exists in the world as pawns to hordes of Pun Puns who constantly battle for supremacy with their epic weapons of ultimate annihilation.

I'd like to point out here that I've played D&D in it's incarnations for over 25 years, and in my humble experience, the Tippyverse is far from the normal state of play in every game I have ever seen.

Looks like we finally found an issue more almost as contentious as ToB. :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

Slightly off topic, but Tippy, how much extraplanar interaction is there in your standard Points of Light megacities setting? I'm wondering how well the magocracies get along with the fantastically powerful extraplanar beings, and how many of said beings have moved into the Primeside cities.

A lot and a little. Deities (as in creatures with Divine Ranks and Salient Divine Abilities) and Epic Casting don't exist and that first point has a fairly big impact as without deities who are invested in the prime material plane a lot of outsiders are less interested in it. The various planar creatures and power blocks tend to leave the Points of Light cities alone because of a healthy respect for the power of those cities.

On the other hand, there are entire cities that instead of using golem forces instead do little things like Greater Planar Bind a few hundred thousand Pit Fiends to hundred thousand year terms of service. A Demon Prince or Lord of Hell who makes a nuisance of himself may well find that a significant percentage of his more important underlings have been removed from his control and were sold or given to his enemies.

There is a basic truce where the Cities won't try to actively alter the planar balance of power in a big way (no trying to end the blood war or invade the heavens) and the planar powers won't try to mess around with the Cities (which has kinda defacto become avoid the prime material). Off the the prime, everyone is fair game though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have to agree with Heliomance here - I can't see any of those things making a serious dent in a high level crafter's wealth reserve. Have you seen the prices on exotic spices and nuts? 1060gp for a pound of saffron, 480 for a pound of nutmeg, 1200gp for a pound of vanilla, 1600 for a pound of lotus.

100gp a bottle or more for the fancy wines.

Then look at the prices of high end clothes.

All this in the arms and equipment guide.

Then look at the cost of luxury furnishings in the stronghold builder's guidebook.

10,000 for a luxury bathroom, 50,000 for a luxury kitchen, 15,000 for a library, 50,000 for a dining hall and then there's the staff. Staff wages aren't enormous but they're recurring and can easily add up to more than 1200gp a year.

Living in the lap of luxury ain't cheap.


I'm not intimately familiar with the rules on spell research, but isn't that just a really sketchy set of suggestions rather than hard and fast rules? The important bit is that it's 1000gp a week. That adds up fast if you're doing research even semi-regularly.


Also (and again I am talking high level archmages and such, not 6th level wand crafters) what spell could you want to research anyway, considering the staggering array of powers already at your fingertips?
Curious minds will -always- look for newer, better ways to do things. There's also curiosity just for curiosity's sake prompting research into totally useless spells just for the hell of it.

If pure need for wealth to support your lifestyle was the motivation for retiring from adventuring, I would imagine there are less time consuming ways to do it (chain gating Efreetis or such and wishing for valuables; flooding the market with materials from Wall of Iron and Wall of Salt spells etc.).

500gp a day isn't exactly an easy wage to come by. I honestly can't say as I can think of even -one- other business that has that much return for almost no overhead. 500gp for the lab (3000 for a fancy one staffed by an apprentice) and then just 500gp worth of material a day for 1000gp return as long as the customer doesn't back out of a deal. Even if he does you can always try to find (or have a broker try to find) a replacement customer.

There's also the fact that it doesn't have to be a full time 9-5, 50 week a year gig. Make a thing for a client when you need some cash then party until the profits from that sale are used up then do it all over again.

Note also; I'm presuming the wizard doesn't want to hock the gear he was personally using back in his adventuring days either from sentimental attachment or from a practical concern for "just in case the proverbial poo hits the fan."