Quick ToB Question

[Planecaster]

I was curious about the three classes.

What are the best pros of the classes?

I mean how powerful would I be if I ran a Gestalt SS/WB or WB/CS (Crusader)

Also how do their Counters and Boosts work?

[OldTrees1]

Gestalt characters are still limited to the same number of actions per turn. As such it is often suggested to have one Active (uses actions) and one Passive (does not use actions) sides to your character. ToB classes are mostly active classes (manuevers and recharging take actions). So a ToB//ToB gestalt would be about as powerful as a non gestalt ToB character.

Boosts take a Swift action (and are expended when used). Normally you get 1 swift action per turn. Think of it as an intensive Free action.

Counters take an Immediate action (and are expended when used). Immediate actions can be taken any time but you lose your next Swift action

[Planecaster]

I see alright.

What classes synergize best with the ToBs?
I have seen a few suggestions but I wanted to know from other sources.
Warblade//Factotum
Crusader//Cleric
Swordsage//Druid or Totemist

But what do you guys suggest.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Here's a rough overview

Crusader: tough as nails warrior that fights for a cause.

pro Heavy armor and built in healing options will keep the crusader in the fight long after everyone else has been cut to ribbons. Maneuvers refresh automatically every couple of rounds.

Con Smallest list of maneuvers, some of which are redundant Refresh mechanic is randomized, therefore unpredictable Least mobile of the martial adepts

Swordsage: Scholar of the art of war.

Pro Broadest selection of maneuvers High skill values Supernatural abilities allow for dealing with situations other non-casters simply can't

Con Terrible refresh mechanic means don't bother or pay the feat tax for adaptive style smallest HD of the martial adepts average BAB

Warblade: Combat master

pro largest HD available broad selection of maneuvers Excellent refresh mechanic

con umm.....



Mind, these are pros and cons relative to each other and other martial characters.

[OldTrees1]

What classes synergize best with the ToBs?

ToB classes use their actions for melee combat. Primarily for single attacks (strikes)

So you want classes that not only don't interfere but also augment/synergize.
[Alphabetical Order]
Barbarian: Rages are nice Buffs. They also can get Improved Trip without needing Combat Expertise or 13Int.
Bard: Music is like several stances.
Cloistered Clerics: Persist buff spells while using "free" Devotion feats to good effect.
Dragon Shaman: An aura (kinda like an additional stance) and some immunities/resistances.
Duskblade: Gish buff spells. Channel touch spells into your strikes. Until 13th level they also focus on standard action attacking.
Factotum: As a non action spend points to improve actions you are taking. At later levels spend points to get actions. Oh and skill points
Fighter: Bonus Feats
Incarnate/Totemist: Get buffed up with "Magic Item" class features
Marshal: A major and a minor Aura (like 2 additional stances)
Psychic Warrior: Bonus Feats and Buffs
Rogue: Extra damage and Skill Points
Totemist: See Incarnate
Warlocks: All day buffs

[Susano-wo]

Warblade con: *low* maneuver selection. they get a good recovery method, but they get a lot less known/readied than swordsages. Still a badassed class, though.

Speaking of maneuvers readied...Adaptive style only lets you switch out which ones you have readied--it does not allow you to refresh maneuvers mid-combat.

As for the original question, I think. you can do a nice Gestalt using two 9-swords classes(probably SS and either WB or CRU), but it requires careful maneuver planning--making sure to have plenty of boosts and counters--otherwise you have waaay more maneuvers than you could ever use.

[Yuki Akuma]

Speaking of maneuvers readied...Adaptive style only lets you switch out which ones you have readied--it does not allow you to refresh maneuvers mid-combat.

[citation needed]

[Red Fel]

[citation needed]

Seconded. The exact language of Adaptive Style says you can change out your readied maneuvers at any time using a full round action. The Official WotC FAQ (admittedly not technically canon, but an excellent indicator of RAI) states that these readied maneuvers are immediately available (for Warblade or Swordsage) or able to be granted (for Crusader).

So, yes. As a full-round action, the Swordsage can switch out his readied maneuvers for the exact same maneuvers, and they will all be available (refreshed).

Back to the point. With regard to gestalting, as mentioned, you want to focus on passive and active class features. Fortunately, between Strikes and Boosts (active) and Stances and Counters (passive), ToB classes can play either side of the double-slash. But there's more to look at. BAB, for example. If you are taking Crusader or Warblade, you get full BAB; Swordsage, not so much. As such, for the former two, you can take a class-feature-rich class with sub-par BAB; for the latter, take something with full BAB to offset that weakness. Similarly, look at saves. Warblade gets good Fort, so you want a class with good Ref and Will. Remember, with BAB and saves, you take whichever class gives you the higher bonus, so you can max those out easily if you plan smartly.

Finally, consider ability synergies. Crusader really only needs Str and Con; everything else is icing. Dex is helpful as it is on any melee, and Cha is nice for your lonely little Smite, but that's extra. Warblade needs Str and Con, and perhaps Dex, but also really shines with Int. Swordsage needs the typical laundry list of Str, Dex and Con, but is substantially powered by Wis. What you want to do is find classes that make these ability scores less MAD, not more. For example, a Cleric or Monk uses essentially the same ability scores as a Swordsage. So a Cleric gestalted with a Swordsage could result in Cleric DMM Persisted buffs on an active melee character with 3/4 BAB, good saves all around, and a high Wis-to-AC. Alternatively, you could gestalt a Crusader with, say, a Warlock (who similarly has no real ability dependencies unless you use Invocations with saves) and get full BAB, good Fort and Will, and an arsenal of passive and active abilities.

[Kennisiou]

Here's a rough overview

Crusader: tough as nails warrior that fights for a cause.

pro Heavy armor and built in healing options will keep the crusader in the fight long after everyone else has been cut to ribbons. Maneuvers refresh automatically every couple of rounds.

Con Smallest list of maneuvers, some of which are redundant Refresh mechanic is randomized, therefore unpredictable Least mobile of the martial adepts

Swordsage: Scholar of the art of war.

Pro Broadest selection of maneuvers High skill values Supernatural abilities allow for dealing with situations other non-casters simply can't

Con Terrible refresh mechanic means don't bother or pay the feat tax for adaptive style smallest HD of the martial adepts average BAB

Warblade: Combat master

pro largest HD available broad selection of maneuvers Excellent refresh mechanic

con umm.....



Mind, these are pros and cons relative to each other and other martial characters.

Con for warblade: basically no out of combat utility. Swordsage's large class skill list and 6 + int skill points makes them solid out of combat and Crusader's charisma dependence and class skill list make them an excellent party face. Warblade's got nothing but the ability to nab diplomacy and not use it very well since they probably dump charisma.

This makes them kind of weak as a solo class -- debatably the lowest-tier martial adept, since "really good at one thing but bad at anything else" is solid t4 territory (see also: Warmage, Marshal)-- but excellent when gestalted since it lets you use the other class to cover your lack of combat utility (part of why factotum|warblade is so strong. Bard|Warblade works nicely for this as well as Psirogue|Warblade, Rogue|Warblade, and Scout or Swift Hunter|Warblade).

The gestalt combos you mentioned are all really good. I've also heard good things about PsiWar|Swordsage and Ardent|Swordsage, even though as I understand it it's a dual "active" class. You use Psiwar/ardent to buff and obtain out of combat utility and then swordsage for strikes primarily. Also, Bard|Crusader makes an excellent party face with good combat options, as does Paladin|Crusader. Sorc|Crusader can also party face and requires some serious investment to get going (and maybe spellsword level or three for the spell failure reduction if you want to wear full plate), but once it's going you can dish out buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control on the sorceror side while letting the crusader side handle most of the damage and healing. Basically you one-man-army it by buffing before combat (ideally), debuffing/controlling for the first couple of turns, then wade in and finish everyone off yourself.

[Red Fel]

Con for warblade: basically no out of combat utility. Swordsage's large class skill list and 6 + int skill points makes them solid out of combat and Crusader's charisma dependence and class skill list make them an excellent party face. Warblade's got nothing but the ability to nab diplomacy and not use it very well since they probably dump charisma.

This makes them kind of weak as a solo class -- debatably the lowest-tier martial adept, since "really good at one thing but bad at anything else" is solid t4 territory (see also: Warmage, Marshal)-- but excellent when gestalted since it lets you use the other class to cover your lack of combat utility (part of why factotum|warblade is so strong. Bard|Warblade works nicely for this as well as Psirogue|Warblade, Rogue|Warblade, and Scout or Swift Hunter|Warblade).

The gestalt combos you mentioned are all really good. I've also heard good things about PsiWar|Swordsage and Ardent|Swordsage, even though as I understand it it's a dual "active" class. You use Psiwar/ardent to buff and obtain out of combat utility and then swordsage for strikes primarily. Also, Bard|Crusader makes an excellent party face with good combat options, as does Paladin|Crusader. Sorc|Crusader can also party face and requires some serious investment to get going (and maybe spellsword level or three for the spell failure reduction if you want to wear full plate), but once it's going you can dish out buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control on the sorceror side while letting the crusader side handle most of the damage and healing. Basically you one-man-army it by buffing before combat (ideally), debuffing/controlling for the first couple of turns, then wade in and finish everyone off yourself.

Swordsage doesn't have to be an active class, though. That's the beauty of it specifically, and ToB classes generally, in a gestalt. Swordsage in particular has access to a massive number of counters and boosts, meaning that it can use its primary actions for PsiWar or Ardent, and reserve maneuvers for things like Diamond Mind saves, Setting Sun throws, and so forth. Crusader and Warblade can be similarly switched from active to passive, readjusting readied maneuvers to a list of boosts and counters as opposed to strikes.

On the other hand, as you mentioned, take any spellcasting class that uses buffs, slap them on a ToB gestalt, then take your strikes and go to town. That works too.

I'll disagree on your Warblade analysis, however, for one key reason - Int synergy. Warblade gets 4+Int skill points, plus he's encouraged to have a high Int due to various class abilities. This means, for instance, that with Knowledge Devotion, he can basically be the party pokedex (can you tell what game I've been playing lately?) - a valuable role indeed. Since he doesn't really depend on any skill rolls, unlike the Bard (perform), Rogue (Hide, Sneak), Wizard (Spellcraft), etc., you can basically pick the discipline skills you like, and then go to town on various other useful skills. So, yes, you may have low Cha, but you can do Diplomacy, or Spot, or Search, or Listen. You can do Craft or Profession. You can pretty much skill where you like. I'm reluctant to say the Warblade is useless out of combat - it's just easy to forget how to use him.

[Gwendol]

Seconding the Bardsader (typically bard 4/crusader X). Use inspire courage to make everyone better at combat, then lead the charge into the fray. Out of combat your limited bard casting may come handy provided a careful selection of spells is chosen.

[Planecaster]

Well why I heard good things about Cleric//Crusader is that the Cleric self buffs along with DMM persist makes the Crusader almost untouchable in combat and he still has a decent recovery mechanic if you play it just right and I heard Devoted Spirit is nice.

Warblade is a great class and has the easiest recovery mechanic of the three making it almost OP in comparison to the rest with their random or severely limited recovery mechanic. Warblade can be played with a lot of skills due to its INT focus.

I was curious if you had a feat that could change spellcasting ability score would that work on Initiator level? This feat came out before they did so maybe you could talk your GM into using it making any of them key off of any score.

I like the ToB classes they have unique abilities and I was gonna say a Wizard//Warblade would be very nice if you could get armor that has no SFR because you're wearing medium armor, have a nice d12 for HP and good skills and loads of uses for them as a wizard.

[Falcon X]

I personally look at them as flavor differences:

- Crusader is an improved Paladin
- Warblade is an improved Fighter/Marshal
- Swordsage is an improved battle-oriented rogue.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Con for warblade: basically no out of combat utility. Swordsage's large class skill list and 6 + int skill points makes them solid out of combat and Crusader's charisma dependence and class skill list make them an excellent party face. Warblade's got nothing but the ability to nab diplomacy and not use it very well since they probably dump charisma.

This makes them kind of weak as a solo class -- debatably the lowest-tier martial adept, since "really good at one thing but bad at anything else" is solid t4 territory (see also: Warmage, Marshal)-- but excellent when gestalted since it lets you use the other class to cover your lack of combat utility (part of why factotum|warblade is so strong. Bard|Warblade works nicely for this as well as Psirogue|Warblade, Rogue|Warblade, and Scout or Swift Hunter|Warblade).

Crusader has even less out of combat utility. Warblades can jump around and sense invisible people, but Crusader's combat role is in-demand (tanks are rare, DPS isn't).

[Emperor Tippy]

Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Exemplar 1/ Mindbender 1/ Swordsage 2// Warblade 20 is hideously nasty.

The non-warblade side is pretty much entirely passive but it picks you up a ton of bonus feats, a ton of skills, and a number of both in and out of combat abilities.

Throw that all on a Necropolitan Gray Elf or Human (which decides whether you take Faerie Mysteries Initiate for Int to HP or Able Learner for all skills effectively always being class skills) and grab the Ritual of Shadow Walking from FR: Lords of Darkness p. 125. If LA buy-off is allowed also grab the Dark template from Tearing of the Weave.

That full build is playable just fine from ECL 1 to ECL 20, has great utility both in and out of combat, and is just a hideously nasty combat beast who will regularly do things like throw out +300 damage standard action attacks and kill five CR appropriate challenges in the surprise round because he is just that much of a badass.

[Planecaster]

Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2 < Huh?

[Emperor Tippy]

Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2 < Huh?

Invisible Fist: Monk Alternate Class Feature/variant found on page 21 of Exemplars of Evil. It looses blink and replaces it with the ability to go invisible for one round out of every four.

Decisive Strike: Monk Alternate Class Feature/variant found on page 51 of the Players Handbook 2. It looses Flurry of Blows and instead gains an ability that takes a full attack action to make a single attack against an enemy that deals double damage, if successful it also makes any other attacks you make against that enemy before your next turn deal double damage. Combined with the Cunning Surge of the Factotum this is very nasty.

Martial Monk: Monk alternate class feature/variant found in Dragon #310. It gets to choose its bonus feats gained at level's 1, 2, and 6 from the fighter bonus feat list and still gets to ignore the feat prerequisites like is normal for Monk bonus feats.

They combine to make the Monk a very nice two level dip, especially on a Factotum with the feat Kung Fu Genius to change it from Wis to AC to Int to AC.

[Planecaster]

And why the 1 level dip in Rogue?

[Zombulian]

Invisible Fist: Monk Alternate Class Feature/variant found on page 21 of Exemplars of Evil. It loses* evasion and replaces it with the ability to go invisible for one round out of every four.

Decisive Strike: Monk Alternate Class Feature/variant found on page 51 of the Players Handbook 2. It loses* Flurry of Blows and instead gains an ability that takes a full attack action to make a single attack against an enemy that deals double damage, if successful it also makes any other attacks you make against that enemy before your next turn deal double damage. Combined with the Cunning Surge of the Factotum this is very nasty.

Martial Monk: Monk alternate class feature/variant found in Dragon #310. It gets to choose its bonus feats gained at level's 1, 2, and 6 from the fighter bonus feat list and still gets to ignore the feat prerequisites like is normal for Monk bonus feats.

They combine to make the Monk a very nice two level dip, especially on a Factotum with the feat Kung Fu Genius to change it from Wis to AC to Int to AC.

Fixed that for you. Not sure when Monks got Blink.
Why Kung Fu Genius over Carmendine?


And why the 1 level dip in Rogue?

Probably for Craven.

[Emperor Tippy]

Fixed that for you. Not sure when Monks got Blink.
Yeah, mistype.

Why Kung Fu Genius over Carmendine?
I prefer the lack of fluff requirements on KFG. CM means you have to belong to a specific group of monks.




Probably for Craven.
Correct, well that and the extra skill points (with it at first level you gain 8 extra skill points).


And why the 1 level dip in Rogue?

8 extra skill points with it at first level, +1d6 sneak attack that is always there and thus qualifies you for Craven unambiguously (which gets you +HD to all sneak attack damage rolls).

[Planecaster]

True but Factotum also gets Sneak attack, but Craven is nice never the less.
This is a very interesting build, especially with the skill monkey aspect on top of sheer damage output.

[Emperor Tippy]

True but Factotum also gets Sneak attack, but Craven is nice never the less.
Whether or not a Factotum's Cunning Strike class feature qualifies it for Craven is reasonably hotly debated. The rules on it are fuzzy. Personally I think Factotum does qualify but Rogue 1 works without any ambiguity.


This is a very interesting build, especially with the skill monkey aspect on top of sheer damage output.
Thank you.

[Pickford]

Kelb_Panthera: I'd mostly agree, however the following also applies:

Crusader edges the Warblade out for maneuvers known (14 vs 13) and the Warblade and Crusader can each only have 7 maneuvers readied.
Swordsage easily trumps both in the manuevers known/readied (25 and 12) and stances known (6, to the others 4).

Swordsage Con: Not proficient with medium/heavy armor or shields or martial ranged weapons.
Warblade Con: Not proficient with ranged weaponry, nonproficient with heavy armor. MAD (Str, Dex, Con, and Int are all needed)

Crusader Pro: Sole access to the Devoted Spirit Discipline (Con: Access to only 3 disciplines)
Swordsage Pro: Sole access to Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand disciplines
Warblade Pro: Sole access to Iron Heart discipline

I'd say discipline access is probably the most compelling reason to pick one. (i.e. If you simply must have Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Desert Wind, Setting Sun, or Shadow Hand maneuvers, you know what you have to do).


Yuki_Akuma:

[citation needed]

Readied maneuvers are swapped out. So if the maneuver has already been exhausted, then, arguably it remains so even when swapped.

Also, the feat says absolutely nothing about refreshing:


You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. If you're a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day.

The burden of proof here rests with the person making the extraordinary claim: That the feat refreshes maneuvers expended. It does not.

[gorfnab]

The martial adepts are fairly versatile. One thing to try for in gestalt, besides a balance between active and passive abilities, is a focus on SAD (single ability dependent) builds. Each martial adept is tied to a specific mental stat. Warblade // Factotum, Wizard, or Artificer works well because you can focus primarily on one stat (in this case Int).

These should help:
Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2030.0)
Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655) Handbooks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645.0)
Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531) Handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259783)
Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968) Handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4408.0)

[Drachasor]

The burden of proof here rests with the person making the extraordinary claim: That the feat refreshes maneuvers expended. It does not.

You gain the new ones as if you had just readied them for the day. That indicates they are available to be used immediately. It doesn't say that you swap them out and that if you swap one out for one that needs to be refreshed, then the new one needs to be refreshed.

In fact, the entire idea that you are "swapping" is language you are adding on. You are reading into the system that you have these fixed "slots" that you put readied maneuvers into and that these slots have a memory independent of the maneuver of whether they need to be refreshed or not. There's no language that supports any kind of metamaneuver memory like that in the rules.

[Fax Celestis]

The burden of proof here rests with the person making the extraordinary claim: That the feat refreshes maneuvers expended. It does not.
From the FAQ

If a character uses the Adaptive Style feat (ToB 28)
after he has expended some of his readied maneuvers, does
he choose new readied maneuvers equal to the maximum
number he can ready, or equal to the number he hasn’t yet
expended?
Using the Adaptive Style feat completely resets the
character’s readied maneuvers, making them all available for
use. If you’re a crusader, you also reset your granted
maneuvers.

[Lord_Gareth]

Not that this is a disagreement with Fax (who has the function of the feat completely correct) but am I the only one who thinks, "Your approval fills me with shame?" when they discover that the WotC FAQ backs up one of their rulings/interpretations?

[Greenish]

Counters take an Immediate action (and are expended when used). Immediate actions can be taken any time but you lose your next Swift actionThough it should be noted that you can't use immediate actions while flat-footed, so if you get ambushed, hit by a trap, etc. you're out of luck.

[Drachasor]

Not that this is a disagreement with Fax (who has the function of the feat completely correct) but am I the only one who thinks, "Your approval fills me with shame?" when they discover that the WotC FAQ backs up one of their rulings/interpretations?

Eh, the WotC FAQ is pretty good 9/10 or even 95/100, imho. There are some oddities, but they are rare. Technically though, the FAQ is not rules in 3.X. It explicitly says it isn't rules and that it isn't a source or rules. It merely aims to help clear up confusion.

It's not like the PF FAQ where they make up rules or ignore what is written and then act like that's what the rules say. They do Errata there while insisting it isn't Errata. Also there's no "these aren't rules" disclaimer. Now that's REALLY annoying.

[Pickford]

From the FAQ

See, now that's totally fine then. Thank you Fax. :smallsmile:

[Adverb]

Swordsage's large class skill list and 6 + int skill points makes them solid out of combat

I'm not sure this is true. The Swordsage has the perception/stealth skills, which is good, but IME the most useful non-combat skills are UMD, Disable Device, and either Bluff or Diplomacy, but usually not both. Swordsages get none of those, and the Knowledge skills they get are pretty weak.

Scent is good, though, and so is indefinite shortrange teleportation.

[QUOTE=Red Fel;16537518]Swordsage doesn't have to be an active class, though. Crusader and Warblade can be similarly switched from active to passive, readjusting readied maneuvers to a list of boosts and counters as opposed to strikes.

I concur on Warblade and especially on Swordsage, but on Crusader I have to disagree. The three schools they get have 2 counters total (Shield Block/Counter), and 5 boosts, 4 of which are largely not worth taking. (The fifth is White Raven Tactics.) I've never done gestalt, but IME Crusaders really want to be slapping out a strike maneuver almost every turn, though the DS stances are some of the best.

To the OP, here's a quote I like, which now that I search for it seems like something Darrin has been saying for a long time:

Warblade = Camaro, impresses the ladies but you can still drive it to work;
Crusader = Dump truck, shrug off damage and unload whoopass;
Swordsage = Formula-1 racer, high-performance tuning but you have to know what you're tuning it for.

[Chronos]

Don't underestimate the value of scouting. It helps a lot to have someone sneaking ahead of the group to case the opposition before you meet them, and the swordsage can fill that role nicely. Yeah, it works even better when you have the full skillmonkey package, including Open Locks, Disable Device, and maybe Sleight of Hand, but if you don't have a rogue (or psychic rogue, factotum, beguiler, scout, ninja, or spellthief) you take what you can get.

[Eldariel]

Don't underestimate the value of scouting. It helps a lot to have someone sneaking ahead of the group to case the opposition before you meet them, and the swordsage can fill that role nicely. Yeah, it works even better when you have the full skillmonkey package, including Open Locks, Disable Device, and maybe Sleight of Hand, but if you don't have a rogue (or psychic rogue, factotum, beguiler, scout, ninja, or spellthief) you take what you can get.

I personally think it's usually a bad idea to scout unless you at least have good Search and the ability to find magical traps. Otherwise, walking into a simple Alarm could have horrific consequences, let alone one of those CR 10 Gate-traps or something.

Of course, it's a fairly small expediture for a Swordsage to multiclass into Trap Expert Ranger, Rogue, Ninja or some such and get Trapfinding; he does have pretty good maneuvers for the job (short range teleportation, short duration invisibility, incorporeality, mobility).

[OracleofWuffing]

And, hey, if your DM believes the "x6 at first level" skillpoints typo... :smallbiggrin:

[Susano-wo]

Gonna post one more time, and then im dropping it, since its really outsife the primary qurstion. Not sure how else to say it but this:in my opinon (' of course) the faq is wrong. The feat just says you get tochange your readied maneuvers. Theres no rrason to assume you get tounexpend x. Add that to the fact that this, for 1 feat, removes the balamce factor from swordsage's massive maneuver list, makes me call bs. But i giess its all up to tbe interpretation at the table

[Red Fel]

Gonna post one more time, and then im dropping it, since its really outsife the primary qurstion. Not sure how else to say it but this:in my opinon (' of course) the faq is wrong. The feat just says you get tochange your readied maneuvers. Theres no rrason to assume you get tounexpend x. Add that to the fact that this, for 1 feat, removes the balamce factor from swordsage's massive maneuver list, makes me call bs. But i giess its all up to tbe interpretation at the table

Well, let's look at the precise wording.


You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. If you're a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day.
Emphasis mine.

Notice the emphasized portion. The Crusader instantly gains new granted maneuvers. This would suggest that the Warblade and Swordsage similarly gain their new readied maneuvers. The FAQ confirms that theory.

As for your argument that this removes the "balance factor" with regard to Swordsages, I disagree. The Swordsage previously took a full round to recover a single maneuver. This feat - and remember, the Swordsage still has to burn a feat on it - means that he still takes the full round action, but does it for all of his maneuvers. Given how many maneuvers a Swordsage gets readied, how many he can use per round, and how many rounds the average combat should be, most Swordsages are not going to use up all of their maneuvers in a given combat - in other words, most are not likely to use this feat that many times. Nonetheless, when they do use it, they still have to basically spend a full round out of combat.

And even then, it does not "unbalance" them relative to the other classes. Even without the feat, Warblade can recover his maneuvers with a swift action, and can still make regular attacks during that round. Crusader can recover maneuvers automatically, albeit randomly. Swordsage requires the investment of a feat - a priceless commodity - simply to be able to recover all of his maneuvers at once, instead of one at a time.

Also his BAB disappoints me.

[Person_Man]

My suggestion is to decide what Attribute you care about most (since this tends to drive many other mechanical aspects), and then pick a class that works off of that attribute to compliment the active ToB class.

Warblade (Intelligence): Wizard, Archivist, Artificer, Duskblade, Psychic Rogue, Factotum, Beguiler, Wu Jen.

Swordsage (Wisdom):Cleric, Druid, Psychic Warrior, Incarnate, Ardent, OA Shaman, Drag Comp Urban Druid.

Crusader (Charisma):Dread Necromancer, Sorcerer, Sha'ir, Bard, Binder.

Any (Focus on Strength OR Dexterity, avoid maneuvers with Saves): Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept.


And never forget about Constitution. In most games, it should always be your highest or second highest attribute.

I personally don't worry too much about the whole passive/active thing. There's nothing wrong or suboptimal about having a selection of active maneuvers plus powers or spells or soulmelds or vestiges.

I generally think it's more important to use discernment about what niches you're filling with each of your abilities. (Melee damage, ranged damage, battlefield control, scouting, etc). If you have a sufficient number of abilities (passive or active or both) which adequately fills a niche, you can just move on to trying to fill other niches. You don't need to stack tons of Sneak Attack on top tons of melee combat maneuvers on top of Power Attack on top of passive ability buffs and so on.

[Drachasor]

Gonna post one more time, and then im dropping it, since its really outsife the primary qurstion. Not sure how else to say it but this:in my opinon (' of course) the faq is wrong. The feat just says you get tochange your readied maneuvers. Theres no rrason to assume you get tounexpend x. Add that to the fact that this, for 1 feat, removes the balamce factor from swordsage's massive maneuver list, makes me call bs. But i giess its all up to tbe interpretation at the table

Again, this is reading into how maneuvers work by assuming there are fixed slots wherein you place maneuvers to so they are readied. The slot is the used or isn't used. And this slot somehow retains memory of what this state if you switch out something else for it.

Except the rules don't have any kind of slot system like this. When you ready maneuvers, you just make a list of what you have readied. No slots, no metaslot memory. The rules simply do not support your view at all.

Also, there are no balance issues with this as many have found out by actually using it. The Swordsage still has a ridiculously expensive recovery mechanism using Adaptive Style that's worse than what the other classes have.

[Shining Wrath]

Warblade con: *low* maneuver selection. they get a good recovery method, but they get a lot less known/readied than swordsages. Still a badassed class, though.

Speaking of maneuvers readied...Adaptive style only lets you switch out which ones you have readied--it does not allow you to refresh maneuvers mid-combat.

As for the original question, I think. you can do a nice Gestalt using two 9-swords classes(probably SS and either WB or CRU), but it requires careful maneuver planning--making sure to have plenty of boosts and counters--otherwise you have waaay more maneuvers than you could ever use.

Actually, Adaptive Style lets you start fresh as though you had just entered combat with a new list of maneuvers. This is made explicit for the Crusaders and left implicit for the others.

As for Gestalt with ToB characters, the thing about these classes is you usually want to be using one of your maneuvers as a standard action, which limits the utility of any other class that relies upon standard actions. BUT ...

The Iron Heart and Diamond Mind schools provide some nice counters (used when it's not your turn). Warblade gets access to both. So what you could do is Warblade/X, focus on things like "Moment of Perfect Mind" and "Iron Heart Surge" that are defensive maneuvers, and then pick X to have offensive standard actions.

Since the Warblade gets some synergies with INT, a Warblade / Wizard would have D12 HD, full BAB, good Fort saves plus a sizable bonus to Reflex saves (Warblades add INT modifier to Reflex save if not flat footed), Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, and melee weapons.

And then Wizard.

Any other INT based class also works.

[AstralFire]

Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker synergizes very well with Swordsage as a Gestalt - the only maneuvers you lose access to while raging, IIRC, are the Concentration-check based ones and there aren't that many of those.

[Chronos]

Honestly, I don't even think that Adaptive Style is worth the feat. Yeah, the Swordsage's standard recovery mechanic is so bad that they effectively don't have one... But Adaptive Style is nearly as bad. Even if you have it, you're almost always better off just finishing the battle with standard attacks, your stance, and whatever less-useful leftover maneuvers you have than you are burning a full-round action to get them back. Add in the opportunity cost of the feat, and I just can't see it.

[Fax Celestis]

Honestly, I don't even think that Adaptive Style is worth the feat. Yeah, the Swordsage's standard recovery mechanic is so bad that they effectively don't have one... But Adaptive Style is nearly as bad. Even if you have it, you're almost always better off just finishing the battle with standard attacks, your stance, and whatever less-useful leftover maneuvers you have than you are burning a full-round action to get them back. Add in the opportunity cost of the feat, and I just can't see it.

Well, its primary advantage is allowing you reset your maneuvers readied. If you're just refreshing the same ones, yeah, it's terrible. But if you open a dungeon door and see ten thousand fire elementals staring down at you, it might be worth the full-round action to toss all your Desert Wind maneuvers for something that will actually be effective. Swordsages specifically have so many maneuvers known that this sort of tactic becomes viable.

[Kennisiou]

The main point of adaptive style on swordsage isn't to "fix" their poor recovery mechanic with a less poor one. It's because swordsage has the largest maneuvers known list of any martial adept. They want it because a lot of times it means they can prepare only their generally useful maneuvers while leaving specific counter situational maneuvers unprepared. When the time comes that they need the specific maneuver because it greatly aids in solving the encounter, it's totally worth it to take the full round action to swap it in (especially if you have more than one relevant maneuver not prepared and/or more than one completely irrelevant maneuver prepared).

[Adverb]

Honestly, I don't even think that Adaptive Style is worth the feat. Yeah, the Swordsage's standard recovery mechanic is so bad that they effectively don't have one... But Adaptive Style is nearly as bad. Even if you have it, you're almost always better off just finishing the battle with standard attacks, your stance, and whatever less-useful leftover maneuvers you have than you are burning a full-round action to get them back. Add in the opportunity cost of the feat, and I just can't see it.

If you're toward the bottom of the Initiative list, and you have Moment of Alacrity handy, Adaptive Style makes a full refresh/reset very compelling.

[Haelfyr]

[QUOTE=Emperor Tippy;16538352]Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Exemplar 1/ Mindbender 1/ Swordsage 2// Warblade 20 is hideously nasty.]

I feel incredibly slow, but why does your build have 40 levels?

[Lord_Gareth]

[QUOTE=Emperor Tippy;16538352]Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Exemplar 1/ Mindbender 1/ Swordsage 2// Warblade 20 is hideously nasty.]

I feel incredibly slow, but why does your build have 40 levels?

Gestalt; it only technically has 20 levels.

[Drachasor]

[QUOTE=Emperor Tippy;16538352]Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Exemplar 1/ Mindbender 1/ Swordsage 2// Warblade 20 is hideously nasty.]

I feel incredibly slow, but why does your build have 40 levels?

Looks Gestalterrific.

[Kelb_Panthera]

[QUOTE=Emperor Tippy;16538352]Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Exemplar 1/ Mindbender 1/ Swordsage 2// Warblade 20 is hideously nasty.]

I feel incredibly slow, but why does your build have 40 levels?

You see the double slash ( // ) before warblade 20? That denotes that it is a gestalt build. The rules for gestalt games are found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

[Greenish]

Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Exemplar 1/ Mindbender 1/ Swordsage 2// Warblade 20 is hideously nasty.]

I feel incredibly slow, but why does your build have 40 levels?C-c-c-combo breaker! "Look ma, I can format!"

[Emperor Tippy]

I feel incredibly slow, but why does your build have 40 levels?

Gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)...

[Haelfyr]

Ah. Many thanks. I shall now hide in the corner of the interwebs due to ignorance....

[Lord_Gareth]

Ah. Many thanks. I shall now hide in the corner of the interwebs due to ignorance....

Oh god no, don't do that. The only way to get questions answered is to ask. And/or exhaustive research, but that first one is usually faster. By all means, Educate Thyself. We don't want you turning out like SOME PEOPLE (cough cough) that I shall diplomatically not name.

[Sam K]

What do people think of warblade//psion? Both benefit from int and psions can manifest powers while wearing armor.

While psion is usually another active class, you could build one that specializes in summons, buffs or mobility, all which will work well with an offense-oriented warblade. And ofcourse, the warblade's lack of ranged options suddenly became a whole lot less worrying.

[Greenish]

It's definitely in the high end of the power scale. Psions have ways to toy with action economy even a wizard might envy, and psionics and sublime way play very nicely together.

[Zombulian]

What do people think of warblade//psion? Both benefit from int and psions can manifest powers while wearing armor.

While psion is usually another active class, you could build one that specializes in summons, buffs or mobility, all which will work well with an offense-oriented warblade. And ofcourse, the warblade's lack of ranged options suddenly became a whole lot less worrying.

Not to mention the fact that Warblades have Full BAB and the biggest HD available. Definitely a winning mix there.