Skill Mastery: Perform?

[Samalpetey]

Is there any way of getting the ability to take 10 on perform checks while threatened via a feat or item? I'm currently running a bardblade focused on Perform: Weapon Drill, and not having to actually roll my saves would be nice

[Stux]

Might take a little hoop jumping, but Aura of Perfect Order (Level 6 Devoted Spirit stance) allows you to take 11 on any d20 rolls. You can pick it up through Martial Study, but you'd need to know two other Devoted Spirit maneuvers, which means either a total investment of 3 feats, or a dip in Crusader.

Alternatively I think you could get an item that lets you use a particular maneuver or stance, but I forget what it is called. It would also be pretty darn expensive for a level 6 maneuver I would think, assuming the item can even go that high.

EDIT: Found the item. Tome of Battle page 149, Crown of White Ravens variant Devoted Spirit Amulet. You'd need a scholar level Amulet, which sets you back 15,000 GP. Unfortunately you do still need to meet the prerequisites, so you'll still need those 2 other Devoted Spirit Maneuvers. You could arguably get two Novice level Amulets for 3,000 GP each to gain knowledge of two low level DS maneuvers and then get Aura of Perfect Order.

[Crake]

Might take a little hoop jumping, but Aura of Perfect Order (Level 6 Devoted Spirit stance) allows you to take 11 on any d20 rolls. You can pick it up through Martial Study, but you'd need to know two other Devoted Spirit maneuvers, which means either a total investment of 3 feats, or a dip in Crusader.

Alternatively I think you could get an item that lets you use a particular maneuver or stance, but I forget what it is called. It would also be pretty darn expensive for a level 6 maneuver I would think, assuming the item can even go that high.

EDIT: Found the item. Tome of Battle page 149, Crown of White Ravens variant Devoted Spirit Amulet. You'd need a scholar level Amulet, which sets you back 15,000 GP. Unfortunately you do still need to meet the prerequisites, so you'll still need those 2 other Devoted Spirit Maneuvers. You could arguably get two Novice level Amulets for 3,000 GP each to gain knowledge of two low level DS maneuvers and then get Aura of Perfect Order.

Aura of Perfect Order is a stance, and thus cant be taken with martial study, you'd need martial stance. Also the maneuver items likewise cannot be taken to gain access to it. The other problem is that to get a level 6 maneuver, you need an initiator level of 11, and since non initiator classes only get you half an initiator level each level, you'd need to be level 22 to qualify without dipping.

It is worth noting though, that the bard spell Heroics lets you get a bonus fighter feat, which can be martial study or martial stance. If you get some lesser amulets like Stux, you could use Heroics to get martial stance, activate a stance, and it'll stick on you even after Heroics ends, which can be nice.
But of course, you still need a decent enough initiator level. If you don't have any initiator classes, you're looking at level 2 for level 1 maneuvers/stances, level 6 for level 2 manuevers/stances, level 10 for level 3, level 14 for level 4 and level 18 for level 5.

Still, there are plenty of stances from 1-5 that can be pretty sweet to have around, especially at little to no investment cost, and heroics can also be used to gain maneuvers temporarily, even after you've gotten into a stance, so that can also be pretty useful (shadow jaunt anyone?)

[Fax Celestis]

Exemplar Dip™ would be the easiest method. I don't think you can actually get Skill Mastery from a feat, unfortunately.

[Samalpetey]

Aura of Perfect Order is a stance, and thus cant be taken with martial study, you'd need martial stance. Also the maneuver items likewise cannot be taken to gain access to it. The other problem is that to get a level 6 maneuver, you need an initiator level of 11, and since non initiator classes only get you half an initiator level each level, you'd need to be level 22 to qualify without dipping.

Actually, to be more exact on my build, I'm currently a bard 4/warblade 3, so I'll have the requisite IL at level 13. Sadly though, that doesn't really help me here.

Also, my neck slot is taken with a badge of valor/choker of eloquence


Exemplar Dip™ would be the easiest method. I don't think you can actually get Skill Mastery from a feat, unfortunately.

I thought as much, I was just hoping that there was some other way

[Emperor Tippy]

Aura of Perfect Order is a stance, and thus cant be taken with martial study, you'd need martial stance.
That part would be correct.

Also the maneuver items likewise cannot be taken to gain access to it.
That part would be wholly incorrect. Stances are maneuvers and can be gained via the items.

[Crake]

That part would be wholly incorrect. Stances are maneuvers and can be gained via the items.

Where in tome of battle does it say that stances are maneuvers? Everywhere in the book afaik the two are differentiated and treated differently.

[Fax Celestis]

Where in tome of battle does it say that stances are maneuvers? Everywhere in the book afaik the two are differentiated and treated differently.

Nope. Stances are maneuvers, just special maneuvers that use their own progression. They still count for prerequisites for higher-level maneuvers, prestige classes, and items.

[Crake]

Nope. Stances are maneuvers, just special maneuvers that use their own progression. They still count for prerequisites for higher-level maneuvers, prestige classes, and items.

Can you give me a page number for the rules for that?

[Samalpetey]

Nope. Stances are maneuvers, just special maneuvers that use their own progression. They still count for prerequisites for higher-level maneuvers, prestige classes, and items.

The closest quote I can find to that is:
"Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose
of fulfilling prerequisites for learning higher-level
maneuvers, or qualifying for prestige classes or feats."

No mention of items there.
And earlier on:
"A stance is not a maneuver, but a
specific fighting method that you maintain from
round to round. So long as you maintain a stance,
you gain some benefit from it. A swordsage initiate
of the Shadow Hand school who creates a concealing
shroud of shadow energy while he moves is using
a stance."

So yeah, up until I looked those up I would have agreed with you and Tippy, but not now

[Emperor Tippy]

Can you give me a page number for the rules for that?


The closest quote I can find to that is:
"Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose
of fulfilling prerequisites for learning higher-level
maneuvers, or qualifying for prestige classes or feats."

No mention of items there.
And earlier on:
"A stance is not a maneuver, but a
specific fighting method that you maintain from
round to round. So long as you maintain a stance,
you gain some benefit from it. A swordsage initiate
of the Shadow Hand school who creates a concealing
shroud of shadow energy while he moves is using
a stance."

So yeah, up until I looked those up I would have agreed with you and Tippy, but not now


Page 5 of Tome of Battle. The official rules definitions of the terms Maneuver and Stance.

"A Stance is a special type of maneuver".

Under the rules as written Stance is a subset of Maneuver.

[Samalpetey]

Page 5 of Tome of Battle. The official rules definitions of the terms Maneuver and Stance.

"A Stance is a special type of maneuver".

Under the rules as written Stance is a subset of Maneuver.

And page 43 says stances aren''t maneuvers, as I quoted. I guess it's up to the DM then, if a book contradicts itself

[Crake]

Page 5 of Tome of Battle. The official rules definitions of the terms Maneuver and Stance.

"A Stance is a special type of maneuver".

Under the rules as written Stance is a subset of Maneuver.

I think rules precedence would make the quote on page 43 that quite clearly states that a stance is not in fact a maneuver would supersede that rule. I think the fact that you need 2 different feats to get maneuvers and stances also leans toward the ruling on page 43

[Fax Celestis]

I think rules precedence would make the quote on page 43 that quite clearly states that a stance is not in fact a maneuver would supersede that rule. I think the fact that you need 2 different feats to get maneuvers and stances also leans toward the ruling on page 43

That would be an instance of specific-trumps-general.

FWIW, though, the unofficial TOB errata (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0) agrees that stances can't be put in items.


Page 149 - Crown of White Ravens [Addition]
After the last sentence in the Effect paragraph, add "Stances cannot be contained in this item. The maneuver is added to your list of maneuvers known for the purposes of readying maneuvers, but not meeting prerequisites of feats, prestige classes, magic items, maneuvers, or any other effect that requires maneuvers known. The maneuver must be readied as normal. You must meet all requirements for the maneuver in order to benefit from this item, including having a high enough initiator level to actually learn the maneuver."

If you attempt combine two or more Crowns into the same item (see the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 282), each crown involved must be of a different type (Novice, Scholar, Master), and must contain a different maneuver in each instance. You cannot, for example, combine three Crowns that each contain the Leading the Attack strike, but you could combine three crowns that contain Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics, and White Raven Hammer.

The above rules apply to the variants of the Crown of White Ravens.

[Stux]

I was under the impression that stances were treated as a subset of maneuvers in cases such as these items. But yes, there is some ambiguity so check with your DM.

As you say though, you need IL of 11 to use it, though there are some who debate that. But that is a whole load of cheese I can't see flying with any DM (specifically that while selecting maneuvers within an initiating class you are limited to what maneuver level you can select based on initiator level, strictly this doesn't apply when selecting a maneuver through the martial study/stance feats or learning it through an item, as it is never explicitly called as a prerequisite - the only limitation that these methods of acquiring maneuvers put on you. And once you know a maneuver you can use it regardless of your initiator level... yeah, cheesy!).

[Legendxp]

Does a rogue's skill mastery not work on perform checks?

[Fax Celestis]

It does, but it takes eight levels of rogue to get to. Exemplar Dip™ only takes one level (admittedly, you can't get to it until 11th, but still).

[Legendxp]

Kay got it, I thought there was something I was missing because no one had mentioned it yet.

[Socratov]

Regardless of stances, I remember from Complete Warrior that you can't use it for bardic performances (and no errata regarding the subject).


Perform(Weapon Drill) (Cha)
You are skilled in quick, flashy movements of a weapon and can put on a display that shows off your prowess in combat.

This category of the Perform skill covers any sort of weapon display, such as twirling a sword or flipping a dagger from hand to hand. Despite the skill's name, you can use it when unarmed by demonstrating difficult martial arts techniques or shadow boxing against an imaginary opponent.

Check: Unlike other categories of the Perform skill, your prowess with the weapon (indicated by your base attack bonus) is an important factor in how good your Perform (weapon drill) skill is. Apply half your base attack bonus (rounded down) as a circumstance bonus on Perform (weapon drill) checks. Your Charisma modifier also applies, as with any Perform check. If you aren't proficient with the weapon you're using, you take the -4 nonproficiency penalty on Perform (weapon drill) checks.

Action: Varies. If you're performing to earn money in public, a weapon drill requires at least 4 hours of 20-minute performances, with breaks in between. If you're demonstrating your skill or trying to impress the crowd at a gladiator match, the performance is a standard action.

Try Again: Yes, but as with other uses of the Perform skill, subsequent attempts after a failure increase the DC of the Perform check by 2 for each previous failure.

Special: The following feats each grant a +2 bonus on relevant Perform (weapon drill) checks: Combat Expertise, Greater Weapon Focus, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, and Whirlwind Attack.

A bard cannot use Perform (weapon drill) checks to perform his bardic music abilities (inspire courage, fascinate, and so on).
(italicising mine)

A good substitute, however, might be Perform(Oratory). No cost, and you can keep your weapons in your hands. Unless you have talked it over with your DM ofc.

[Samalpetey]

Regardless of stances, I remember from Complete Warrior that you can't use it for bardic performances (and no errata regarding the subject).


(italicising mine)

A good substitute, however, might be Perform(Oratory). No cost, and you can keep your weapons in your hands. Unless you have talked it over with your DM ofc.

I'm not using it for bardic performances, I'm using it with Undersong for diamond mind save replacers. I have 3 ranks in Perform (Oratory) for inspire courage. The main reason I want to be able to take 10 is so that my intelligent weapon can't gain dominance

[Socratov]

I'm not using it for bardic performances, I'm using it with Undersong for diamond mind save replacers. I have 3 ranks in Perform (Oratory) for inspire courage. The main reason I want to be able to take 10 is so that my intelligent weapon can't gain dominance

Ah, ok, that is cool. Kind of beating your weapon into submission, while looking stylish while doing so.

[Chronos]

Yeah, especially since the weapon itself is the very instrument you're using to make yourself so awesome your weapon can't take over.

[Big Fau]

(italicising mine)


You do realize that quoted text is always italicized, right? We can't tell what you highlighted.

[Psyren]

You do realize that quoted text is always italicized, right? We can't tell what you highlighted.

The best part is we can't even quote him to find out, since quotes within quoted text aren't preserved :smalltongue: it's just teh fail all around.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I would presume from context that he italicized the last line; the one about perform (weapon drill) being a no-go for bardic music.