Fist time a manouver user, crusader/cleric/ruby knight

[Alexander leah]

hey all, i will be joining 3,5 game, that will let me try a manouver class, once the others told me that they need some healer i decided to go for a divine gish, but i need some help to outline the build, since is the first time i get involved with a tob class.

some guidelines:
human
lv6
still need to roll the abilities score
Since my master allow the tome of of battle i presume all manual are permitted, but i dont want to be too much cheesy.
No reach weapon and tripping, another player has a trip warrior with a guisarme, i dont want to steal is area of expertise, also i like way more the good old two handed sword.
I want to be more focused on the martial aspect than the caster one, i want spell to function as the party healer and buffer, but still i dont want to neglect it.

the progression i thinked is cleric2/crusader3/RKV1 but its not setted in stone if you have better ideas.

about feats i think that extra granted manouver is a tax feat, for the other i'm open to suggestion, divine metagic quick? stan still to use it with the thicket of blade stance?

[Red Fel]

First rule: No combat healing. Use Crusader's Devoted Spirit heals in combat, use wands or scrolls to heal outside of combat. Combat healing, even as a caster, is bad.

Second rule: Since you're focusing on martial function, take the Cloistered Cleric variant. This gives you lower BAB on your Cleric levels, but it adds the Knowledge Domain for free, which you can freely swap for the Knowledge Devotion feat.

Now, onto the build. You're saying Cleric 2/ Crusader 3/ RKV etc. So let's look.

First, prereqs. RKV requires 4 Hide, 4 Intimidate, 8 Knowledge (religion). You would have to max Hide and Knowledge to get there; Intimidate is a little easier with Crusader levels. The rest is cake.

As you're going without reach weapons, I would make the most of your Cleric spellcasting. Take DMM and Persist, and buff heavily. Take Extra Turning to fuel your RKV powers.

Stand Still with Combat Reflexes and Thicket of Blades is nice, but requires a reach weapon to truly shine. Still useful, though.

I would recommend focusing on Devoted Spirit maneuvers, with Stone Dragon for damage. You say there's another player who's using a trip warrior - are there other melees in your group? If so, White Raven is a good way to help them shine.

[Alexander leah]

yes, i know that i will not likely heal in combat, but if you say i could be just as effective with the devoted spirit manouver i could just go 6 crusader?

I dont like Cloistered cleric, it may be a powerfull option, but i dont like its flavour.

if i go human, by level 6 i will have 4 feats:
extra granted manouver
combat reflexes
stand still
divine metamagic persist
if flaw are allowed i would go for an extra turn undead.

the party is:
a warmage
a spellcaster asian themed, the class from the complete manuals, i dont remember the exact name
the trip fighter
a rogue

[Red Fel]

yes, i know that i will not likely heal in combat, but if you say i could be just as effective with the devoted spirit manouver i could just go 6 crusader?

Not exactly. Devoted Spirit maneuvers are excellent combat spot-healing, but they're not perfect healing. That said, a level or two of Cleric enables you to use wands and scrolls of Vigor or Cure Minor Wounds, and that's the out-of-combat healing you want. Save your spells for buffs.

In any event, RKV requires Turn Undead and advances divine spellcasting - Crusader doesn't give you those, so you'll need your Cleric levels anyway.


I dont like Cloistered cleric, it may be a powerfull option, but i dont like its flavour.

That's fine, it's just an option. I think Wee Jas gives you Knowledge Domain as an option anyway, and it's an excellent choice regardless. The Knowledge Devotion feat is truly worth the cost of admission.


if i go human, by level 6 i will have 4 feats:
extra granted manouver
combat reflexes
stand still
divine metamagic persist
if flaw are allowed i would go for an extra turn undead.

Technically, DMM Persist is two feats - (1) Divine Metamagic, and (2) Persistent Spell. The second takes any spell with a fixed or personal range (read: your buffs) and makes them last 24 hours. Divine Metamagic allows you to use TU to apply Persistent Spell to your divine spells. Note also that Persistent Spell requires the feat Extend Spell. So, already, you've got six feats on your list - that's a fairly heavy feat tax.

Technically, it's quite manageable by level 12. And admittedly, you might not need 24-hour buffs. But it's a choice.


the party is:
a warmage
a spellcaster asian themed, the class from the complete manuals, i dont remember the exact name
the trip fighter
a rogue

Maybe Wu Jen is the spellcaster? In any event, since you've got a fighter and a rogue, White Raven is a valuable option. In particular, the White Raven Tactics maneuver is valuable for any party member, regardless of whether they melee or not.

[Alexander leah]

thats suck, shuold i drop the stand still and combat reflexes?

[Red Fel]

thats suck, shuold i drop the stand still and combat reflexes?

It depends. Stand Still and Combat Reflexes are great for a lockdown martial build, forcing enemies to stand there and face you. If your goal is to be martial, those are fine. You can avoid the DMM Persist altogether, and simply throw a buff or two at the beginning of combat before leaping into the fray.

On the other hand, if you care more about getting into combat and hurting things a lot than you do locking them down, skip Stand Still and Combat Reflexes and go for your DMM Persist. Be a buffmonkey and pass them out like candy, good for all-day smashing. Then dive into combat with stances and maneuvers and kill things before they can be a threat to anyone.

Remember, Combat Reflexes gives you more AoOs, which you won't need if you kill things dead in the first place. Similarly, Stand Still lets you keep someone from moving if you AoO them - again, not an issue if you corpsify your enemies.

So it's really up to you - where do you see yourself? Keeping the bad guys away from the squishies, or introducing them to an early grave?

[Alexander leah]

i'm more probabily on the killing side than the controlling side :smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

i'm more probabily on the killing side than the controlling side :smallbiggrin:

Then I would suggest skipping Stand Still altogether. Probably skip Combat Reflexes too unless you expect to have a good Dex modifier and be making a lot of AoOs. Stick with your DMM Persist feats and you can be all-day buffing by level 6. The order you should take them in is Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and last Divine Metamagic. That's because DMM must be applied to a specific metamagic feat, which in this case is Persistent Spell.

Technically, if you're playing a Human for the bonus feat, you could even have this up and running by level 3.

After that, look into the bread-and-butter melee feats, such as Power Attack.

[Alexander leah]

and instead, if i want to skip the dmm route(since all the other players are pretty new to the game i dont want to be that much stronger than them), what other progression could be cool?how about this one?

extra granted manouver
stand still
combat reflexes
stone power

or **** stone power and go power attack?
also Practiced Spellcaster seem cool

[Alexander leah]

Little update, i rolled the stat 16 15 13 10 12 14, master allow 2 flaws for 1 feat, it will be a low money campaign, i will start with 6000 Gold. The team really lack a Divine caster, so i changed my progression to cleric 4/crusader 1/rkv1, deity is custom, i can choose any 2 domains, so i may consider the DDM feat Route

[Particle_Man]

Note: RKV has an ability to trade Turn Undeads to grant swift actions. Check with your DM whether this trading ability is itself "free" or whether you have to spend a standard action to activate it.

BTW, if you are going "heavy martial", have you considered Paladin 4/Crusader 1/RKV 1?

[Rebel7284]

Little update, i rolled the stat 16 15 13 10 12 14, master allow 2 flaws for 1 feat, it will be a low money campaign, i will start with 6000 Gold. The team really lack a Divine caster, so i changed my progression to cleric 4/crusader 1/rkv1, deity is custom, i can choose any 2 domains, so i may consider the DDM feat Route

Cleric 4/Crusader 1 is perhaps the best entry. One of your domains should be Planning for a free Extend Spell feat (it's a prerequisite for Persistent Spell!) There are a number of great options for your second domain.

Undeath gives Extra Turning which is important if you want to get to enough turn attempts to persist multiple spells.
Spell is good for more versatility.


You may want to also ask your DM if the item Nightstick from Libris Mortis is available and if multiple stack. If the answer is yes to both, buy/craft as many as you can. xD

While DMM persist is probably optimal for a "Tank" type character as you want buffs available all the time, DMM quicken is also an option with RKV. After all, you can get a swift action by spending a turn attempt so that means at least TWO quickened spells a turn or, if the Divine Impetus can be activated multiple times a turn (unclear based on text), it becomes as many quickened spells as you have turn attempts for! Crazy spell nova! Considering how many turn attempts this approach takes, it's probably best used with nightstick stacking. Although if that's available, go both quicken and persist. Totally worth the 5 feats at that point for all the win. :)

[Jurai]

Grab Planning Domain for free Extend. You might be able to finagle that, since Wee Jas is Lawful and offers Knowledge Domain. That's the Cleric side.

[Alexander leah]

@Particle_Man:i was considering that, then i saw that the team has none divine caster of any form, so i changed to a build with more spellcasting

@Rebel7284: Planning is a Great Idea, i will worship a custom Pantheon of the master, i will worpship the good part of it, so evil themed domains are out

Cleric 4/Crusader1/RKV1
Planning and War Domain (i know war sucks, but its thematically correct)

feats
Lv 1
Extend spell (Bonus Feat)
Persistent Spell
Divine Metamagic persistent(Human feat)
Extra Turning(possible feat with 2 flaws)
lv3
Power attack
lv 6
practiced Spellcaster

are practiced spellcaster and power attacks worth? especially the first?

[Jurai]

Most buffs aren't CL-dependent to my knowledge, and Power Attack is always nice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are going a more kill-stuff route than crowd control route, then yes Power attack is absolutely vital, it is the single best melee feat in the entire game. Practiced Spellcaster is nice, but not as vital IMO.

[Rebel7284]

Extra Granted Maneuver is also nice.
Alternatively, there is always the approach of taking Extra Turning 3 times and calling it a day. Pretty effective if there are no nightsticks.

I would consider using Persisted Ice Axe to fight when you get level 3 spells and take power attack only if you can apply it to that.

[Alexander leah]

yeah, you are right, extra readied manouver instead of practised spellcaster, what i should buy with a such a limited amount of gold?

[Rebel7284]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1002.0

Some items I like:
Shadow cloak: Drow of the Underdark and here: http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/items/drowitems.shtml
Anklets of Translocation: MIC
Healing Belt: MIC
+4 Item (Wis or Con, you only need charisma at the beginning of the day to get more turn attempts).
Some light armor and weapons would be nice too.
Ring of the Darkhidden is nice if you plan to actually use armored stealth. :)


But best item is probably a nightstick.

Edit: seems like nightstick is out of your pricerange.

When you can afford it, buy one. :)