How could a zombie actually work?

[Kalmageddon]

In the recent years zombies have been frequently portrayed in various media and I feel I've been overexposed to them, to the point where I started over analyzing them.

We all know the basics, a zombie is a reanimated corpse that is somehow impervious to every injury save for having their brains destroyed.
Except that this makes no sense. A human body is designed the way it is because it wouldn't work otherwise. We need to breathe, we need to have a heartbeat and blood pressure, otherwise everything shuts down.
Obviously.

Most zombies are justified in their media by vague explanations like a virus that reactivates the brain or something like that, but this still seems pretty vague and implausible and I basically just roll my eyes and force myself to go with it nowdays.

So here is my question for the Playground: what would it take, theoretically, to create a zombie in the way Hollywood protrays them? What kind of changes should happen to a body in order to function with only a brain and nervous system? How could something make a corpse go again without violating termodynamics and biology*?
Of course I'm not asking for anything practical or plausible, just for an explanation to the inner workings of a zombie that would pass a superficial analysis from someone knowledgeable in biology and other relevant fields of study.

Go wild! :smallbiggrin:



*Not too badly at least... : P

[Tylorious]

There are parasites that lodge themselves into the brains of living things and change the way they act. Some have small changes such as a slowed reaction time, whereas others have drastic changes like causing a mouse to actively find and be eaten by a cat so the parasite can reproduce in the cat's stomach, only to be defecated and eaten by yet another mouse. These types of parasites may someday evolve to "pull the strings" of a human and cause them to do things they normally wouldn't. This may progress further to where the parasite is running the body even if the original host is dead. This parasite would want to reproduce as much as possible so it would leave offspring in the mouth of the host and cause it to spread the contagion to others. Once the entire population of hosts are infected, and there is no where else for the parasite to spread, they will eventually run out of food (brain) and die. The only thing this doesn't explain is why the human bodies eat flesh after it is infected: maybe its a reaction left over from the previously living human, the desire to eat. This is what makes the most sense to me.

[Spiryt]

They don't.

This is not right question, since it's right up there with 'how do dragons fly'. :smallwink:

For standard fantasy purposes, something like above ^ is perfectly sufficient.

[Haruki-kun]

Sort of agree with Tylorious, except for the host being already dead.

Truth is, the only way I can see a zombie happening is with the newer "infected"-type zombies, which is to say that the zombie is not actually dead: it just can't control itself. In order for the zombie to move, the muscles need to be working, and they obtain energy from food, and they need oxygen, and the excretory system needs to work for the waste to be disposed of... there are way too many things that just wouldn't happen if the body was dead.

Also, Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains it better. (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/15/buzzkill-of-science-neil-degrasse-tyson-explains-why-zombies-are-purely-fantasy/)

[Zaggab]

The modern definition of dead is "When all the functions of the brain has been completely and irrevocably lost", which would mean that a corpse that reanimates already has a functionally destroyed brain, so for something to become a zombie that is killed by destroying the brain, some of the brain must still be functional, in which case the zombie-to-be wasn't dead in the first place.

As Tylorious wrote, a hypothetical parasite (or other pathogen) which hi-jacked the brain of a human, which also removed the response to pain as well as causing vasoconstriction (as some drugs do) would give rise to something with zombie-like behaviour which would appear to be unaffected by trauma to the body and limbs. Vasoconstriction would also give the appearence of corpse paleness.

To be able to move, the zombie would need some kind of circulation and metabolism, meaning that it would need oxygen, blood flow and food to survive. A human can survive about 3 months without food, so assuming the zombie would still be drinking, it could move about quite a while after zombiefication. If the hypothetical parasite also lowered body temperature, metabolism would slow, allowing the zombie to survive longer. This would also make the zombie slower, and would explain the shuffling gait and slow reactions of classic zombies. A lowered body temperature would simulate algor mortis (cold body after death).

As for spreading through bites, several pathogens spread through saliva such as many viruses (cold viruses, herpes viruses, rabies etc) and at least malaria (a parasite) spreads through the "saliva" of mosquitos.

These zombies would still be vulnerable to dehydration, and would eventually die from wounds to other body parts than the head, but more slowly than a human. Spinal and neural injuries would still paralyze it. They would still need to breath, but if the parasite upregulates oxygen-binding molecules in blood and other tissues, it could go without breathing longer, imitating no breathing at all for shorter periods of observation. So, not quite a "real" zombie, but similar, especially during a brief encounter with them (as when you're hacking them down with chainsaws or blasting them with shotguns)

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, the parasite could work for creating the stumbling, groaning, moaning, and even violent tendencies. You can even give them a modicum of super strength because the brain's safety measures to stop one from hurting oneself can be turned off. However, then you run into the problem such creatures are still living creatures. They still need to eat and drink, so after a few days, at most, they should be dropping from lack of water, not to mention hypo- or hyperthermia depending on the weather.
Also, stumbling into someone and biting them is not the most efficient means to spread disease, so, unless this is being intentionally spread, it's not going to last long. Heck, even then, there isn't going to be much spread beyond the initial generation, which defeats the purposes of a biological agent.
So, while disease, parasite or even chemical 'zombies' could work short term, they don't have the staying power of zombies without some considerable extra stuff.

[Thunderfist12]

Zombies work like this (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/pictures/110303-zombie-ants-fungus-new-species-fungi-bugs-science-brazil/).

[SiuiS]

There are none. To move a corpse would require something. Either the host would have to remain alive enough, and moist enough, that hydrostatic shock could kill the brain-thingy; but then body shots would eventually take it down. Or the brain would have to, I dunno, insert muscular tentacles throughout the body, to mechanically move the limbs and such, but then it's vulnerable to being attacked. Eventually, an animate body will wear away to nothing, through erosion if not decomposition. Without magic, a zombie cannot exist.

[factotum]

The most "realistic" portrayal of a zombie I read was in a Larry Niven short story. Basically, it was an infection of sorts that re-animated them, but the first thing said infection had to do was restart the heart so it could access other areas of the body; the people who are being attacked by the zombies figure this out and defeat them by injecting them with a full-spectrum cure that kills every disease, including the one zombifying them.

The only thing that the story kind of glossed over was how the infection got into the corpse's heart in the first place...

[Ravens_cry]

Zombies work like this (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/pictures/110303-zombie-ants-fungus-new-species-fungi-bugs-science-brazil/).
Yeah, I already mentioned the problems for that if you want a full bore zombie plague. Damn if that doesn't look freaky though, like elephant toothpaste exploding out of everywhere.

[zlefin]

Magic.

Really magic is the most plausible explanation.
It lets you get around all of the physics. So having the process start with some loon casting ancient magic spells from old dusty tomes lets you justify it all.


also, zombies are like the force, it's best not to try to explain how they work in detail.

[Amidus Drexel]

I think the real issue here is finding someone to hire a zombie in the first place, as there are a few jobs where the work could easily be done by a mindless worker as by a human. :smallamused:

On a more serious note, I like the voodoo idea of zombies, which is pretty much just "a wizard did it".

[the_druid_droid]

Just for the sake of discussion, I should point out that there are lots of anecdotal accounts of people under the effects of PCP behaving in a "zombie-like" way, i.e. excessive aggression, near-immunity to pain, and bizarre behavior.

Some sort of chemical or virus with similar but longer-lasting or irreversible effects might provide a good rationale for "fast zombies". Also, the conventional wisdom about aiming for the head could be a result of the fact that only a direct heart shot would bring down this type of zombie sufficiently rapidly (and there are big game hunting anecdotes that animals charged with adrenaline can keep rushing a hunter even with a ruptured heart, albeit briefly). Since the head is smaller than the torso, but still larger than the heart, especially for panicked survivors, that would make a more probable target and contribute to the myth that only headshots kill the creatures.

[Silver Swift]

Really magic is the most plausible explanation.
It lets you get around all of the physics. So having the process start with some loon casting ancient magic spells from old dusty tomes lets you justify it all.

I agree with this, in order to make zombies even moderately plausible you need either magic or nanotechnology that is so advanced it might as well be magic.


also, zombies are like the force, it's best not to try to explain how they work in detail.

See, that I don't agree with. Magic works best when it is explained, so lets give it a try:

The way zombies behave works best as some kind of magical scavenger or parasite, a creature that inhabits a dead humans body, takes over whatever it can use and slowly consumes the rest. The parasite enters the body as a microscopic larvae and travels the bloodstream until it reaches the brain. Once there, it starts to eat. In a matter of days (or hours, depending on how effective you want this plague to be) it grows to its full size, taking up the entire inside of the skull.

It then spreads tiny tentacles throughout the host body. These tentacles serve two purposes: they consume the parts of the body that the parasite no longer needs, sending the nutrients this generates back to the skull where they are used to keep the parasite alive and provide the required energy for the second task, reactivating and upgrading the body's muscle tissue. At the same time the parasites eats its way through the eyes and replaces them with its own sensory organs (whatever they are).

Once the host body is functional again the parasite lays eggs in its mouth and starts to wander about, looking for still living animals in which to lay its eggs and start the cycle again. After the parasite has eaten it's way through the entire host body the parasite dies, though this could take quite a while because the parasite only uses the exact parts of the body it needs, rather than having to constantly keep everything active and healthy like humans do (alternatively you could have the parasite feed on livestock and other animals, only spreading itself to other humans to make it last longer. Though this will likely not extend your apocalypse by much).

Advantages of this approach:

Zombies are super strong dead humans that can survive having large parts of their body destroyed and can be killed without moral qualms.
The zombie plague spreads by bite.
If you destroy a zombie's "brain" (actually the parasites true body) it dies.
Burning the zombie (or infected person) deprives the parasite of it's nutrients so it dies faster.


Disadvantages:

Like with most zombies in fiction there is no way this creature can plausibly infect a large part of the human race or present a credible threat to any significant group of survivors.
The parasite dies after a fixed amount of time, so a sustained apocalypse is unlikely.

[Emmerask]

In nature there are quite a few parasites/viruses which create "zombie" (the virus version) like behaviour best known would be certain rabies strains I guess.
(Though I do not know if humans actually become more aggressive?).

So some form of super rabies which creates extreme aggressiveness in humans would be the best guess for a working zombie?

The undead version ...well as others have said magic seems the only explanation which could work :smallbiggrin:

[erikun]

Well, assuming you don't want the magic approach, which would be like voodoo zombies or a nth-dimensional spacetime energy virus...

In order for something to stand upright and bipedial, you'll need to have the muscular system active. In order to remain that way, the nervous system will need to be active, and probably a small portion of the brain for stuff like equilibrium. Senses will require more parts of the brain active, although sound and smell would likely require the least, meaning potentally no higher-brain functions.

Of course, the biggest problem is getting sugar/oxygen to those systems. Keeping the cardiovascular system running, complete with breathing and a beating heart, would do it - although at that point, we're more talking about some parasite controlling the body. I suppose it might technically be possible for some bacteria to dissolve "unnecessary" parts of the body (like fat and skin) to produce the required energy, although I wouldn't expect it to be an efficient (or really even practical) method.

The bacteria idea would potentially give you a body that can move around on its own, smell and hear, and stay mobile for a few weeks before falling apart. It isn't likely to run up and bite anything, but then again, being a walking plaguebearer makes that somewhat unnecessary. The only purpose for this thing would be to move to another location before falling apart and allowing the bacteria to spread.

[WarKitty]

A significant part of the problem is that humans just aren't built for biting as an aggressive action. Human teeth aren't designed to easily pierce skin, and the human skull isn't designed to put teeth forward in a way that would be conducive to biting.

That goes double if you want them to eat brains specifically. The human skull isn't easy to open.

[thubby]

28 days later isn't wholely unreasonable. the modern take on zombies is based on rabies already. the idea that it could get more virulent isn't even that crazy.

the human body is capable of functioning remarkably well even after taking critical damage. just look at the crazy stuff people do on drugs. there's very little that mechanically prevents a human from accomplishing what we see zombies get away with, it's our own body's attempts to keep us safe and alive that impose the greatest limit.

[Ravens_cry]

28 days later isn't wholely unreasonable. the modern take on zombies is based on rabies already. the idea that it could get more virulent isn't even that crazy.
The trouble the zombies is the living 'zombies' would die off, or at least be incapacitated by sheer dehydration very quickly. A couple days at most. If you have an outbreak, quarantine the area, encourage or force everyone in the area to stay inside, and it should die off on its own accord.

[thubby]

The trouble the zombies is the living 'zombies' would die off, or at least be incapacitated by sheer dehydration very quickly. A couple days at most. If you have an outbreak, quarantine the area, encourage or force everyone in the area to stay inside, and it should die off on its own accord.

which is precisely what happens, granted its over the course of a week or so but im willing to give hollywood that much license.

actually, depending on what the virus does, it could improve response to dehydration by reducing liver and kidney functions, among other things. a week or 2 of highly contagious, body fluid leaking fury would be enough to be a world health crisis at least.

[SiuiS]

The trouble the zombies is the living 'zombies' would die off, or at least be incapacitated by sheer dehydration very quickly. A couple days at most. If you have an outbreak, quarantine the area, encourage or force everyone in the area to stay inside, and it should die off on its own accord.

Oh, no fair! You changed avatars, too!


DD, while PCP might induce similar symptoms, you're looking at burning out the body incredibly fast. Over adrenalation (is that even a word? Is now~!) impairs fine motor function and can cause the heart to burst. And I mean impair fine motor function like 'cannot remain standing upright'.
If a zombie consists of
-murderous
-impervious
-implacable
-long lasting

The. You're not going to get a zombie by any biological process. Not a human one. You'll have accounts where people will refer to it as a zombie, but 1 & 4 counteract each other, and 2 & 3 are remarkably unlikely when 4 is also necessary.

I suppose in theory a series of parasites which all communicate with each other through the interstitial fascial network of the body and work like a unit a-la jelly fish could have specialized "king" worms that work into the head and receive basic information from the spine, and transmits data along "courier" worms that are fast and responsive and in turn spur "thrall" worms that contract muscle mechanically, but then we have the problem of this being a very, very energy intensive system. You'd need an additional gut worm to, like, process all the intake and then distribute it to the entire rest of the body, which... Is functionally like super rabies, except the head will still move for a while after removal.

I guess PCP rabies with zombies only dying of their wounds 'off screen' is the best we'll get.

[Brother Oni]

actually, depending on what the virus does, it could improve response to dehydration by reducing liver and kidney functions, among other things. a week or 2 of highly contagious, body fluid leaking fury would be enough to be a world health crisis at least.

Except you'd also have to disable or impair homeostasis functions to reduce water loss and messing around with thermoregulation to stop water being lost by sweat is going to cause the death of the zombie in very short order.

The core temperature only needs to hit 40C for it to become life threatening and with all that massive physical exertion, most zombies would die off in a few hours (deaths from MDMA overdoses are typically through hyperthermia and such deaths usually occur in nightclubs, thus a similar conditions of physical activities), or quicker if the environment is hotter.

[Eldan]

So. There's actually two different questions in here, the way I see it.

The first is: how would a single zombie work? That the easy part, really. Drugs, viruses, both can work. At least so far as to turn a human stupid, aggressive and near immune to pain.

The second is a spreading zombie plague. I don't really believe that one, for reasons of epidemiology. Or ecology, if you want to call it that. What is the zombie's food source? Humans. What is the zombie's means of reproduction? Also humans. What is the zombie's main predator? Why, more humans.

This really can't work.

[factotum]

Except you'd also have to disable or impair homeostasis functions to reduce water loss and messing around with thermoregulation to stop water being lost by sweat is going to cause the death of the zombie in very short order.

I should maybe have added to my zombie explanation earlier: the zombies in question only survive for one night, so long-term issues with thermoregulation and whatever aren't an issue... :smallsmile:

[Brother Oni]

The second is a spreading zombie plague. I don't really believe that one, for reasons of epidemiology. Or ecology, if you want to call it that. What is the zombie's food source? Humans. What is the zombie's means of reproduction? Also humans. What is the zombie's main predator? Why, more humans.

This really can't work.

It works if you view the zombie as a host for the parasitic organism inside (dependent on type of zombie).

The food source aspect is just a byproduct of the organism trying to keep its host alive long enough so it can spread. There are a number of such organisms which cause its host to be eaten by predators so the parasite can continue its life cycle inside the predator.

Being eaten intentionally sounds more ludicrous on the surface if you don't distinguish between host and parasite.

[Eldan]

Still. Every human eaten is one that can't be turned into another zombie. That just doesn't work out.

So, to work, the zombies would have to bite other humans, then let them go and mainly eat other things. Which makes them quite a bit less scary.

[Tylorious]

Still. Every human eaten is one that can't be turned into another zombie. That just doesn't work out.

So, to work, the zombies would have to bite other humans, then let them go and mainly eat other things. Which makes them quite a bit less scary.

You might think that, but if you think about World War Z, where it's kind of just a disease and they run stupid fast, it becomes scary again.

[Ravens_cry]

which is precisely what happens, granted its over the course of a week or so but im willing to give hollywood that much license.

For the sake of a move, perhaps, but not for the sake of an actual thought experiment/discussion.


actually, depending on what the virus does, it could improve response to dehydration by reducing liver and kidney functions, among other things. a week or 2 of highly contagious, body fluid leaking fury would be enough to be a world health crisis at least.
The liver and kidney do some very awesome things. Those toxins build up pretty fast. Liver and kidney failure would kill the disease zed pretty fast too, even if the disease could prevent a need for water. And , of course, hyperthermia, which changes to prevent water loss would just make worse, is still a concern as no water loss means no sweating. Not to mention hypothermia. It takes a lot less than one might think, especially if wet, to become hypothermic to the point of impairment.

[Emmerask]

OR these rabies zombies just drink some water when they become thirsty :smallbiggrin:

I know its not perfectly zombie like but I would say reasonable :smallbiggrin:

[Karoht]

Look up the webcomic "under the dead skies" as they detail their zombies as being based on a real world fungus called Cordyceps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordyceps

For reference, this comic was out for a year before that zombie game The Last of Us used it.

Either way, good places to start researching.
Cheers.

[Thunderfist12]

^^ I already linked to the Cor-whatsit fungus in an earlier post.

Edit: Woohoo! First on page 2!

[Brother Oni]

OR these rabies zombies just drink some water when they become thirsty :smallbiggrin:

Except that rabies makes you hydrophobic. :smalltongue:

[Zaggab]

Except that rabies makes you hydrophobic. :smalltongue:

The hydrophobia induced by rabies is not a regular phobia. Rabies makes you unable to swallow correctly, so when you try to drink you can't get it down rigth, making it feel like you're drowning, and thus inducing panic.

Though, it would be cool if rabies made you hydrophobic in the chemical sense of the word - "Look at me! I'm a crazy zombie and I can't get wet!"

[Brother Oni]

The hydrophobia induced by rabies is not a regular phobia. Rabies makes you unable to swallow correctly, so when you try to drink you can't get it down rigth, making it feel like you're drowning, and thus inducing panic.

If they can't swallow properly then both eating and drinking are out of the picture. Which means that rabies zombies in hot environments like the Middle East will probably last mere hours.



Though, it would be cool if rabies made you hydrophobic in the chemical sense of the word - "Look at me! I'm a crazy zombie and I can't get wet!"

Shhhh! Don't give Hollywood any more ideas for bad science!

[JustSomeGuy]

If they can't swallow properly then both eating and drinking are out of the picture

Does help with the whole bite/eat, reproduce/food aspect though.

[Zaggab]

If they can't swallow properly then both eating and drinking are out of the picture. Which means that rabies zombies in hot environments like the Middle East will probably last mere hours.
And that's probably the reason why we haven't had a zombie outbreak yet, even though we have rabies :smalltongue:

Seriously, rabies have an incubation period of several months in humans (if you're bitten in and arm or leg), and once you get symtoms (and start being contagious) you die in a few days. Would be a kinda slow zombie outbreak if it took months between being bitten and becoming a zombie. Clearly, we need something else to base the zombie infection on.



Shhhh! Don't give Hollywood any more ideas for bad science!
Hmm... you just gave me and idea on how to pay my student loans... does Hollywood pay people for bad ideas? I mean, they must, since so many stupid movies are made...

[SiuiS]

Does help with the whole bite/eat, reproduce/food aspect though.

Zombies don't eat. It's a minor detail, but over the years they've gone from biting you to death because it's creepy and wrong and violent, to biting you to death because the animal urges of the brain make them mimic such behaviors, to people thinking the zombies must eat you. But the only zombies that eat are the ones who eat brains, and they aren't even the same kind of zombie.

If you're trying to build a zombie that would work, you're going to have to;
Establish zombie criteria
establish precedence of criteria over each other
work out methods of reaching that criteria

as is, without focus, you've got a parasitic fungal virus that kills you and you're still alive enough to die later, are controlled by a parasite as a breeding ground but breed strictly through infecting your food source that you cannot eat.

[erikun]

Though, it would be cool if rabies made you hydrophobic in the chemical sense of the word - "Look at me! I'm a crazy zombie and I can't get wet!"
Shhhh! Don't give Hollywood any more ideas for bad science!
Zombies that walk on water?


Zombies don't eat. It's a minor detail, but over the years they've gone from biting you to death because it's creepy and wrong and violent, to biting you to death because the animal urges of the brain make them mimic such behaviors, to people thinking the zombies must eat you. But the only zombies that eat are the ones who eat brains, and they aren't even the same kind of zombie.
Some do, complete with the grisly dismembered corpses and bloated abdomens that break open and spill their contents. I do agree, though, that you could have something "zombielike" without actual eating being necessary.

[SiuiS]

Zombies that walk on water?

Terrifying.

"Nah, man, you don't understand, man! They went up into the mountains, I dunno, casing pilgrims or something. And I guess Jimmy says they must have walked off the mountain tops right onto the clouds, and just been up there for who knows, man. And then it rains, right? And the sun breaks, and the clouds go away, and the damn biters fell on us like god's wrath man!"



Some do, complete with the grisly dismembered corpses and bloated abdomens that break open and spill their contents. I do agree, though, that you could have something "zombielike" without actual eating being necessary.

But that's usually an intentionally included thing to make them different from "normal zombies", for the fright factor. That still says that normal zombies chew you up but don't metabolise anything.

[sktarq]

biggest problem with zombies. Energy source. They don't digest food-being dead but still move. Movement requires energy-from somewhere and without metabolism where do they get it. Stored chemical energy in the body would be a short term solution at best. (A couple months generally-but without a heartbeat rather difficult to get from the storage regions of the body (liver, fat, etc) to the movement regions.

[noparlpf]

So here is my question for the Playground: what would it take, theoretically, to create a zombie in the way Hollywood protrays them? What kind of changes should happen to a body in order to function with only a brain and nervous system? How could something make a corpse go again without violating termodynamics and biology*?

You can't, unless you want CYBORG ZOMBIES.

A virus or parasite affecting a living organism's behavior is the most plausible "zombie" explanation you could get.

[SiuiS]

biggest problem with zombies. Energy source. They don't digest food-being dead but still move. Movement requires energy-from somewhere and without metabolism where do they get it. Stored chemical energy in the body would be a short term solution at best. (A couple months generally-but without a heartbeat rather difficult to get from the storage regions of the body (liver, fat, etc) to the movement regions.

Magic. the answer is magic. :smalltongue:

[dehro]

Magic. the answer is magic. :smalltongue:

QFT

also..

Zombies that walk on water?


there are sooo many pics out there that I want to post now.. but they'll just be taken down because religion.

[Jay R]

So. There's actually two different questions in here, the way I see it.

The first is: how would a single zombie work? That the easy part, really. Drugs, viruses, both can work. At least so far as to turn a human stupid, aggressive and near immune to pain.

The second is a spreading zombie plague. I don't really believe that one, for reasons of epidemiology. Or ecology, if you want to call it that. What is the zombie's food source? Humans. What is the zombie's means of reproduction? Also humans. What is the zombie's main predator? Why, more humans.

This really can't work.

It can work, but either it will eventually either take over all humans, killing itself off by overgrazing, or the humans will fight back enough to reach some sort of equilibrium.

[dehro]

he humans will fight back enough to reach some sort of equilibrium.

that seems unlikely. if humans learn how to fight back well enough to reach said equilibrium, their techniques, skills or tactics, whatever it is that brought them that far, can probably take them all the way to killing all zombies... unless somehow zombies get smarter as time passes or develop yet more ways to kill humankind... in order to keep up with the growing human competence at killing zombies.

[Mynxae]

You might think that, but if you think about World War Z, where it's kind of just a disease and they run stupid fast, it becomes scary again.

Having just watched World War Z today... They never really knew how it all started in the movie, except that:

An army guy went AWOL, then was found by his army buddies as well as their doctor, doc got bitten, then doc bit everyone else in a room I think. Crazy thing is how that if they (humans in general) are sick/diseased themselves, the zombies just bypass them. Like the main character said "Like the water going around a rock in a river"


Zombies don't eat. It's a minor detail, but over the years they've gone from biting you to death because it's creepy and wrong and violent, to biting you to death because the animal urges of the brain make them mimic such behaviors, to people thinking the zombies must eat you. But the only zombies that eat are the ones who eat brains, and they aren't even the same kind of zombie.

Drawing from The Walking Dead here:

The zombies from TWD tend to eat any live flesh they can get their hands on, or at least recently live flesh anyhow. To the point of ripping apart a human to kill them, then eating their innards and gorging themselves. :smalleek: Which I think was explained as one of those "biological urges" to feed. Which happens in Resident Evil as well. :smallsigh:

[Ravens_cry]

Why don't zombies eat each other then? Surely something of about your own speed would be better than trying to catch humans?

[Mynxae]

Why don't zombies eat each other then? Surely something of about your own speed would be better than trying to catch humans?

Perhaps it's like how some animals only eat dead flesh? :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

Perhaps it's like how some animals only eat dead flesh? :smallconfused:
But humans are not dead when they find them . . .

[erikun]

You can't, unless you want CYBORG ZOMBIES.
Cyborgs (or general grey goo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo) explanations) just exchange one implausability for another. You now don't have to worry about energy requires for an organic body, in exchange for worrying about energy requirements for a mechanical body (and possibly reproduction, in the case of infecting nanomachines).

[Ravens_cry]

Cyborgs (or general grey goo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo) explanations) just exchange one implausability for another. You now don't have to worry about energy requires for an organic body, in exchange for worrying about energy requirements for a mechanical body (and possibly reproduction, in the case of infecting nanomachines).
Technically, now you have to worry about both, unless the meat and bone are just a frame on which to hang the cybernetic parts.

[noparlpf]

Cyborgs (or general grey goo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo) explanations) just exchange one implausability for another. You now don't have to worry about energy requires for an organic body, in exchange for worrying about energy requirements for a mechanical body (and possibly reproduction, in the case of infecting nanomachines).

Solar power? :smalltongue:


Technically, now you have to worry about both, unless the meat and bone are just a frame on which to hang the cybernetic parts.

They're just there to be gross I guess?

[Ravens_cry]

They're just there to be gross I guess?
So you have a robot that has skeleton of rotting bones and meat. That sounds practical.:smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

So you have a robot that has skeleton of rotting bones and meat. That sounds practical.:smalltongue:

I just figured combining my two great fears (zombies and robots) would make it even worse.

[Mynxae]

But humans are not dead when they find them . . .

I meant that it would be the opposite, as in that the zombies don't eat dead flesh, only live flesh. :smallredface: Sorry for being confusing.

[Ravens_cry]

I meant that it would be the opposite, as in that the zombies don't eat dead flesh, only live flesh. :smallredface: Sorry for being confusing.
That doesn't work if they are disease or parasite zombies, which are the only ones that come close to 'making sense', as they are still alive. Besides, why would the do this anyway? If they are dead but can assimilate flesh, why would they care about disease from rotten meat?

I just figured combining my two great fears (zombies and robots) would make it even worse.
Each to their own.

[Mynxae]

That doesn't work if they are disease or parasite zombies, which are the only ones that come close to 'making sense', as they are still alive. Besides, why would the do this anyway? If they are dead but can assimilate flesh, why would they care about disease from rotten meat?

They're zombies, do they really need a reason to do anything if they work in any way shape or form? :smallconfused:

[Starbuck_II]

Advantages of this approach:

Zombies are super strong dead humans that can survive having large parts of their body destroyed and can be killed without moral qualms.
The zombie plague spreads by bite.
If you destroy a zombie's "brain" (actually the parasites true body) it dies.
Burning the zombie (or infected person) deprives the parasite of it's nutrients so it dies faster.


Disadvantages:

Like with most zombies in fiction there is no way this creature can plausibly infect a large part of the human race or present a credible threat to any significant group of survivors.
The parasite dies after a fixed amount of time, so a sustained apocalypse is unlikely.


Wait, why are zombies super strong?
Strong, sure, stronger than when the guy was alive but that new strength is based on strength of individual.

Humans are very stubborn to hide bites or not seek medical treatment when they have to choose between spending money on wants or on that.

So I can totally see the bites spread. Factor also what adult will kill their infected children?

[Kalmageddon]

Zombies don't eat. It's a minor detail, but over the years they've gone from biting you to death because it's creepy and wrong and violent, to biting you to death because the animal urges of the brain make them mimic such behaviors, to people thinking the zombies must eat you. But the only zombies that eat are the ones who eat brains, and they aren't even the same kind of zombie.


Wat.
The Walking Dead comic book and tv series. All the Romero zombie series. All the remakes of said movies. All the cheap knock offs of said movies. The Marvel Zombies comic book miniseries.

All those zombies rip, chew and swallow the flesh of their victims. And that's just the first few exemples that come to mind. Basically all the modern hollywood style zombies eat their victims.

[SiuiS]

Drawing from The Walking Dead here:

The zombies from TWD tend to eat any live flesh they can get their hands on, or at least recently live flesh anyhow. To the point of ripping apart a human to kill them, then eating their innards and gorging themselves. :smalleek: Which I think was explained as one of those "biological urges" to feed. Which happens in Resident Evil as well. :smallsigh:

The walking dead specifically calls out zombies who cannot eat as eventually starving to death(?), yes. That's a sort of change though, since the archetypical zombie will never go away on It's own. Aliens find out planet thousands of years in the future, when our sun is barely at the point of being able to function, and zombies would be hiding in dark spots still. Unless they were The Walking Dead zombies.


Wat.
The Walking Dead comic book and tv series. All the Romero zombie series. All the remakes of said movies. All the cheap knock offs of said movies. The Marvel Zombies comic book miniseries.

Marvel is a terrible reference for anything; even their own characters.
Romero zombies chew and rip and ingest. They do not eat. Eating is sustaining and refreshing trough metabolic processes. A vampire eats through blood consumption. A zombie will devour something but it does not eat. It does not draw energy. It does not require food. It goes after food because that makes them predatory and creeps people the hell out, but not because it is a necessary component of their survival.

Derivative works are also a terrible reference. Of them, some markedly change things in order to be original and some miss the point because they take the heuristic patterns without putting thought into them.

I can think of only a few sources where eating was necessary. The walking dead, and the old brain-eating flicks. That is, quite literally, all. All Flesh must be Eaten is a derivative based on this idea more than it's own source, so I'm my sure whether to count it and whether to count an RPG designed to play primary media zombies as being a primary media source itself.

[Ravens_cry]

They're zombies, do they really need a reason to do anything if they work in any way shape or form? :smallconfused:
Um , , , yes?:smallconfused:
You'd probably complain if they started picking up guns and talking, right?
So, zombies do need reasons for their behaviour.

[SaintRidley]

Why can't we all just agree that Hell got full and leave it at that on this one?

[Ravens_cry]

Why can't we all just agree that Hell got full and leave it at that on this one?
Because it is my understanding this thread is about trying to come up with plausible within the known understanding of the universe methods to create zombie-like entities.
Yes, in the end, magic is the only way for the whole package to come together, but we can get close results without spamming the magic 'explanation'.

[Kalmageddon]

Because it is my understanding this thread is about trying to come up with plausible within the known understanding of the universe methods to create zombie-like entities.
Yes, in the end, magic is the only way for the whole package to come together, but we can get close results without spamming the magic 'explanation'.

Indeed, this is exactly why I opened the discussion.
Basically my idea was "writers don't really put much thought into it, so the explanations are implausible, what if someone actually did research and tried coming up with a better explanation? Would it be possibile to turn the zombie concept into something more acceptable from a scientific point of view?"

So far the parasite idea seems like the better candidate.
But what about bacteria? It's my understanding that bacteria can already do a lot of work for an organism. Some deep sea worms basically lack any digestive system, instead relying on colonies of bacteria that directly provide nourishment as a byproduct of their own metabolization of inorganic substances.
Stretching this concept a little maybe similar bacteria could provide energy to a zombie host by thriving on rotting flesh of the zombie itself or the flesh it ingests into his now useless digestive tract.

[Ravens_cry]

Humans are a bit more complicated, though our gut flora and fauna do provide a significant amount of nutrients. See, you still need to get the nutrients to the cells. Also, anaerobic biological processes are less efficient at converting nutrients into ATP, the basic unit of energy of the cell.

[Thunderfist12]

Someone asked earlier why a zombie wouldn't just eat their own kind.

Consider the fact that, perhaps, the disease also re-constructs their instinct to give them some way to know what is infected and what isn't - not eating a creature due to its smell and rotted coloration, perhaps?

Which, oddly enough, means that people who roll in carcasses and paint themselve grey are probably safer than people who have weapons up the a**. If it works that way.

[Ravens_cry]

Someone asked earlier why a zombie wouldn't just eat their own kind.

Consider the fact that, perhaps, the disease also re-constructs their instinct to give them some way to know what is infected and what isn't - not eating a creature due to its smell and rotted coloration, perhaps?

Which, oddly enough, means that people who roll in carcasses and paint themselve grey are probably safer than people who have weapons up the a**. If it works that way.
Yes, but why not? Unless they are some kind of group entity (something I am going to use for a zombie story I am working on) why wouldn't they eat their fellow zeds? If they are living zombies, they aren't going to be rotten, and if they aren't living, why do they care about the dangers of rotten meat; disease, food poisoning, and such?

[Frozen_Feet]

Animals selecting what to eat or not to eat based on stench is not some far-fetched sci-fi idea, nor would ir require some unified zombie group entity.

A virus or parasite affecting a person's response to certain smells is very plausible, especially since several diseases do change body odour. That's how dogs can detect their owner is ill, or on their period, for example.

[SiuiS]

Because it is my understanding this thread is about trying to come up with plausible within the known understanding of the universe methods to create zombie-like entities.
Yes, in the end, magic is the only way for the whole package to come together, but we can get close results without spamming the magic 'explanation'.

Can we? I still say folks should tally up which symptoms of being a zombie are most desirable and which are superfluous and work towards achieving as much of their desired package as possible.


Someone asked earlier why a zombie wouldn't just eat their own kind.

Consider the fact that, perhaps, the disease also re-constructs their instinct to give them some way to know what is infected and what isn't - not eating a creature due to its smell and rotted coloration, perhaps?

Which, oddly enough, means that people who roll in carcasses and paint themselve grey are probably safer than people who have weapons up the a**. If it works that way.

Where does the energy come from to convert a dead body into a living-ish ambulatory body that also consists of reconfigured but not alive tissues?


Animals selecting what to eat or not to eat based on stench is not some far-fetched sci-fi idea, nor would ir require some unified zombie group entity.

A virus or parasite affecting a person's response to certain smells is very plausible, especially since several diseases do change body odour. That's how dogs can detect their owner is ill, or on their period, for example.

Okay. Without blood flow, or living brain tissue, how is the parasite changing the brain's signal interpretation enough to have this reaction to dead flesh or living flesh?

Alternately, the zombie is still alive, in which case the question becomes how does the catatonic person not die within a matter of hours from an infection it is obviously reacting to, while running around non-stop without food or drink or rest in the open environment and sustaining all sorts of trauma from inexpert locomotion?

[Ravens_cry]

Animals selecting what to eat or not to eat based on stench is not some far-fetched sci-fi idea, nor would ir require some unified zombie group entity.

A virus or parasite affecting a person's response to certain smells is very plausible, especially since several diseases do change body odour. That's how dogs can detect their owner is ill, or on their period, for example.
That's not my point. My point is that fellow zombies represent an excellent potential food source for zombies that eat, so why don't zombies that eat, eat other zombies? Pity the poor zombie whose main prey is also its worst predator, i.e. able minded humans.

[SiuiS]

That's not my point. My point is that fellow zombies represent an excellent potential food source for zombies that eat, so why don't zombies that eat, eat other zombies? Pity the poor zombie whose main prey is also its worst predator, i.e. able minded humans.

Assuming the zombie needs food, it's not a far jump to conclude that other zombies are unpalatable. Perhaps they require specifically non-infected tissue with which to breed more goo? Obvioudsly, whatever they have isn't eating them from the inside out already, so they need tissue that is unlike their own in quality but like their own in general form.

[Ravens_cry]

Assuming the zombie needs food, it's not a far jump to conclude that other zombies are unpalatable. Perhaps they require specifically non-infected tissue with which to breed more goo? Obvioudsly, whatever they have isn't eating them from the inside out already, so they need tissue that is unlike their own in quality but like their own in general form.
'Zombies don't eat zombies because they are unpalatable' is what is known as a tautology. It's like saying 'the sky is blue because it reflects wavelengths with an approximately 4.5 micrometers wave length', the wavelengths corresponding to blue light. The next part is a little better, though why would it have to be like their general form? After all, some nano-goo presumably operates on a cellular or even smaller level. Why not animals?
Besides, with our present understanding, 'goo zombies' are only a step away from 'magic zombies'. We know there is parasites and pathogens that can influence behaviour, but nano-goo is really so much magic as of yet.
EDIT: I hope I don't come across as a snooty little git. Please tell me if this occurs.

[Thunderfist12]

Clarifying what I stated earlier: I was merely suggesting that the disease's effect on its hst changed pigmentation and odor in such a way that it could be compared to a carcass. However, I did not specify that it was actually dead (I don't think). If I did, oh well. I was tired, okay?

Anyhow, a zombie is, by definition, a mindless creature with the characteristics of a dead human body that feasts upon the flesh of the living. Therefore, need the creature be dead to be a zombie?

[Kalmageddon]

Anyhow, a zombie is, by definition, a mindless creature with the characteristics of a dead human body that feasts upon the flesh of the living. Therefore, need the creature be dead to be a zombie?

I think that as long as the final result is a creature that looks and acts like the stereotypical zombie, it's all good.

[Wardog]

So you have a robot that has skeleton of rotting bones and meat. That sounds practical.:smalltongue:

They exist (sort of) in the Polity 'verse.

(Basically, technology has advanced to the point that functional immortality can be obtained through brain-uploading. Most people prefer to have their mind installed in a robot body, or cloned human body. But some - for quasi-religious reasons - prefer to be reinstalled in their own preserved and cyborgized corpse. Most other people think these "Reifications" are weird at best).


***

As for the question "why would zombies need to eat non-zombies?" - if we are going for a pathogen explanation, presumably the pathogen would need uninfected flesh to draw sustenance from. Eating infected flesh wouldn't help, as you just have more mouths to feed, so to speak.

[sktarq]

So far the parasite idea seems like the better candidate.
But what about bacteria? It's my understanding that bacteria can already do a lot of work for an organism. Some deep sea worms basically lack any digestive system, instead relying on colonies of bacteria that directly provide nourishment as a byproduct of their own metabolization of inorganic substances.
Stretching this concept a little maybe similar bacteria could provide energy to a zombie host by thriving on rotting flesh of the zombie itself or the flesh it ingests into his now useless digestive tract.
Assuming this was true. The energy would still need to get from the gut to the muscles-living humans do this via blood and the heart moving said blood around. So your zombies now have a heartbeat. They will bleed. As for the cells away from the gut now being supplied with energy and the like from the parasite-they are alive. Bones cells?-explain why those cells die during this infection. And if it is not dead should it be called a zombie? Heck the basic definition of a zombie in an animate corpse.
The only real exception to this I know of in pop culture of zombies is the 28 days later Rage virus in which it could well be argued it was rabid people not zombies.
As for smell sight of humans being what drives them to try and infect/feed/kill-if we are talking about a parasite, cybernetic implant or whatever wouldn't the simplest idea be to have it link the "person recognition" part of the brain to the "aggression" and "feed" parts? Heck most people have a specific part of the brain to recognize human faces-That part wouldn't be hard. Smells work the same way.

[Andre]

Ok, not having to pay them is a big point in their favor, but I can't really fathom what kind of work a zombie could successfully accomplish.

[noparlpf]

Ok, not having to pay them is a big point in their favor, but I can't really fathom what kind of work a zombie could successfully accomplish.

Power generation. Put it on a treadmill hooked to a turbine.

[SiuiS]

'Zombies don't eat zombies because they are unpalatable' is what is known as a tautology. It's like saying 'the sky is blue because it reflects wavelengths with an approximately 4.5 micrometers wave length', the wavelengths corresponding to blue light. The next part is a little better, though why would it have to be like their general form? After all, some nano-goo presumably operates on a cellular or even smaller level. Why not animals?
Besides, with our present understanding, 'goo zombies' are only a step away from 'magic zombies'. We know there is parasites and pathogens that can influence behaviour, but nano-goo is really so much magic as of yet.
EDIT: I hope I don't come across as a snooty little git. Please tell me if this occurs.

The latter is an explanation of the former. Humans don't eat humans because they are unpalatable (in the sense that it gives you a defect). Zombies cannot survive on other zombies. Just because I'm not detailing a specific mechanism why doesn't make the general idea hard to get or to work with.

By 'goo' I mean whatever you decide to use. If it is a virus, then parse that as the virus has already changed the host cells sufficiently that they are not suitable for the purpose of breeding. If you choose parasite, assume the host changes cellular metabolism in a way which allows it to function but does not make it viable for breeding because using the tissue for fuel gets rid of it and you need some handy way to explain why an external force animating the zombie does not just eat the zombie.

Assume, basically, that the intelligent squrrels that set up a pulley system inside the human body, peed all over the body and will not metabolise human meat they have peed on. It's marked, and so the organism, whatever it may be, won't utilize it. Perhaps the bateriofungositic virus nanomachine magic whatever first changes the cells of a thing into host cells, and cannot undo that change, and after a certain amount of host cell making it just eats the rest?

I'm spreading a concept here, not a concrete thing, you see? :smallsmile:

And yes. Magic. Magic is the only 100% successful answer so far. So if we discount magic, the answer is "zombies CANNOT function". Which changes the question to how close to a functional zombie can we get and how? The why is just supporting details.

[dehro]

The latter is an explanation of the former. Humans don't eat humans because they are unpalatable (in the sense that it gives you a defect).

also, it went out of fashion. it's not like we've never done it, as a species, that is.

[SiuiS]

also, it went out of fashion. it's not like we've never done it, as a species, that is.

It's not like zombies have never eaten other zombies. But the general flow of things is that this doesn't happen, and that there is a mechanical reason, even if we don't know what that reason is.

[Frozen_Feet]

Okay. Without blood flow, or living brain tissue, how is the parasite changing the brain's signal interpretation enough to have this reaction to dead flesh or living flesh?


The distinction is not "living flesh" vs. "dead flesh". It is "infected" vs. "not infected". If the parasite is in control of the host's nervous system and receives the host's sensory input, the parasite can make that decision. Parasitic animals that do this already exist.

In simple terms: infected people smell different from healthy people. Very simple organisms can distinquish them.

[bluewind95]

The way it occurred to me is via a parasite that lodges itself in the brain. As it grows, it begins consuming the brain and sprouting tentacles that it then passes through the spinal cord. These tentacles grow branches which would then wrap themselves around the bones of the limbs, with some branches cutting out of the skin for the purposes of accessing the environment more directly. These tentacles would provide the motion of the zombie. It would also create sacs to store water, which it could consume from other living things (making another zombie unpalatable), or from its environment. Its energy could come from the sun, like plants. The zombies would at first start out with hijacking the main sensory organs of the person, with branches spreading out to the nose, the eyes (from the inside), and the ears. All from the nerves. The organs would rot and die, of course. So the zombie would grow its own eyes and hearing organs. The zombie creates spores that spread through bites that infect other people. And when the corpse completely dies off? The zombie explodes in a cloud of spores that can enter the body through a wound, creating yet more zombies. The result would be a kind of tree-human-corpse hybrid, but I think it can more or less work.

[Ravens_cry]

Ah, so a biological version of the 'robot with human bones'. Trouble is, such a creature really loses out on any benefit of being a parasite, which is to have another creature do the heavy lifting, while you get to be a long gut tract with little else besides, and so save on energy, at the expense of the host