[PF] Question about the Cavalier's Tactician ability

[00dlez]

Per the PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier#TOC-Tactician-Ex-):

At 1st level, a cavalier receives a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats. The cavalier can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day at 5th level and for every 5 levels thereafter.

Say a Cavalier has multiple teamwork feats, can they choose which feat's benefits get bestowed on their allies or MUST it be the teamwork feat selected as the bonus feat per this ability?

EX:
A level 10 fighter takes his first level of Cavalier. He already has the Cavalry Formation and Shield Wall teamwork feats, so for his tactician feat, he selects the Coordinated Charge teamwork feat. Can he ONLY grant the coordinated charge feat to his allies via the tactician ability or could select from any one of the three each time he uses the ability.

[grarrrg]

A close reading seems to indicate that you can _only_ grant the Teamwork feat gained by the Tactician ability.

Greater Tactician at 9 reads similarly:

At 9th level, the cavalier receives an additional teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. The cavalier can grant this feat to his allies using the tactician ability. Using the tactician ability is a swift action.

The real punch-in-the-gut comes from Master Tactician though (emphasis added):

At 17th level, the cavalier receives an additional teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. The cavalier can grant this feat to his allies using the tactician ability. Whenever the cavalier uses the tactician ability, he grants any two teamwork feats that he knows. He can select from any of his teamwork feats, not just his bonus feats.

This seems to strongly indicate that only his Bonus Teamwork Feats can be used before level 17.


On the other hand, Tactician is a fairly weak ability overall, so having it work for any/all Teamwork feats you know should not be a problem.

[Spore]

At 1st level, a cavalier receives a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet

Read it aloud. Empathize on 'THIS '. The definition by RAW is water proof. Only the teamwork feat gets transferred.

The ability is useable on all teamwork feats you know, though. I refuse to play a Cavalier under a DM who sees that differently.

[stack]

Paizo REALLY wants us to like teamwork feats.


Didn't work.

[Spore]

Paizo REALLY wants us to like teamwork feats.


Didn't work.

They are great as class features like these. They are garbage otherwise. Other than broken wing gambit. This one has potential. "Ugh, I'm dying!" *stabstabstab* "Joke's on you, now you're dying!"

[stack]

When abilities like this take a standard action, they aren't so hot. I would never take them for a PC if they weren't given as bonus feats (and when they are try to trade them away with an archetype). A few can be decent, but I wouldn't go out of my way to grab them if they take any special qualification.

Where they shine is as a dm. Armies of mooks with teamwork feats can be fun, though watch out: mooks with low attack bonuses and high AC can make for long, boring fights.

[00dlez]

That is the idea - I hope to incorporate this into a Leadership based character, but taking 17 levels of cavalier to do it seems... not great... at all...

[Spore]

That is the idea - I hope to incorporate this into a Leadership based character, but taking 17 levels of cavalier to do it seems... not great... at all...

9 Levels is fine. Then Tactician is a swift action and you're fine to switch out. That's what I am doing with my charisma halfling cavalier. Multiclassing into Paladin for Cha on various things. Leadership is banned here, though :)

[grarrrg]

9 Levels is fine. Then Tactician is a swift action and you're fine to switch out. That's what I am doing with my charisma halfling cavalier. Multiclassing into Paladin for Cha on various things. Leadership is banned here, though :)

Better idea: Just take Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician).
Holy Tactics are SOOOoooOOOOO much better than "regular" Tactics.


At 3rd level, a holy tactician gains a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. She must meet the prerequisites for this feat. She gains an additional bonus feat for every four levels attained after 3rd, to a maximum of five bonus feats at 19th level.


At 3rd level, a tactician can direct her allies in battle, granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action. All allies must receive the same feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious. Allies must be able to see and hear the holy tactician in order to gain this benefit. Changing the bonus feat granted is a swift action.

Notice the lack of duration.
As long as they can see/hear you the bonus lasts FOREVER.
1 Standard action, which doesn't even have to be made in battle, and you're probably set all day.

You do lose the Mount feature though.
If the Mount is a big thing for you, then I suggest Holy Tactician 3, Cavalier 4, Holy Tactician ++
Grab Horse Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat) feat and your good to go (and pick a Cavalier archetype that dumps Tactician).

[Suddo]

(and pick a Cavalier archetype that dumps Tactician).

Or have both. If you are Stealth Synergy is great for out of combat (when having a duration just slows you down some).

[Spore]

Better idea: Just take Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician).
Holy Tactics are SOOOoooOOOOO much better than "regular" Tactics.

I don't think I will trade my challenge for a very weird "not really smite evil but command your troops to kill evil".

[00dlez]

I was actually looking for ways to dump the mount anyway - penalty to leadership and general uselessness of mounted combat.. A regular war horse will suffice

[Spore]

I was actually looking for ways to dump the mount anyway - penalty to leadership and general uselessness of mounted combat.. A regular war horse will suffice

I don't think the Cavalier should be your choice of class then. Remember a mount can also serve as animal companion that is not ridden.

[00dlez]

I don't think the Cavalier should be your choice of class then. Remember a mount can also serve as animal companion that is not ridden.

It's turning out not to be. Right now I'm leaning towards a Cleric with the Evangelist archetype (essentially grants me bard inspiration and spontaneously cast spells like command, enthrall, suggestion, etc)

Satisfies my need to be able to inspire/improve/command troops and isn't too penalizing from the cleric abilities.

[Spore]

It's turning out not to be. Right now I'm leaning towards a Cleric with the Evangelist archetype.

That archetype is seriously great. +5 and more in the first combat round for all allies. Other than that, if you still want Cavalier.

Standard Bearer 1 (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/cavalier.html#_standard-bearer-%28archetype%29) /Bard 4 (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/bard.html#_bard) / Battle Herald 10 (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/prestigeClasses/battleHerald.html) / Bard 9 is also a viable option. (But straight bard is better than that)

[00dlez]

I hadn't looked through PF Society stuff before - good call on battle herald.

My hesitation to take cavelier was partially because of the mount issue, and more so that the tactician ability isn't a great ability until later... but if I can not sink too many levels in to cavelier and go battle herald, I can just wait it out until the levels stack to make it useful.