Would this cheesy combo work by RAW?

[ParsimonyJones]

So, this rests on a few premises, and I'm curious if there's a hole in them by RAW.

If you take the fire domain, you can rebuke / command fire creatures as an evil cleric rebuke/commands undead. At any one time, the controller can command any number of creatures whose combined Hit Dice don't exceed his level.

However, with a turning check, only creatures that are half your level or less are vulnerable to being commanded. So usually, this will just get you some handy little utility minions, nothing that can contribute in combat against level-appropriate foes. But what if you could temporarily lower the effective level of a fire creature?

When you hit a creature with Ennervate,
"Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities)."

Are hit dice and levels synonymous for this purpose? If so, could a 10 HD creature be hit with five negative levels, and then Commanded by a cleric with the fire domain?

"The controller can voluntarily relinquish power over any commanded creature to command new ones. Otherwise, the commanded state is permanent." (Rules Compendium, p. 144)

So if the Command worked to begin with, would the commanded state endure after the negative levels wore off? The total HD commanded would still be within the maximum.

This would create a kind of Pokemon-esque situation where clerics might mount expeditions to find and ennervate fire (fire /air /water /earth /Scalykind /ooze) creatures to the point where they could be captured.

- Parsimony

[Flickerdart]

"At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)

[illyahr]

So, this rests on a few premises, and I'm curious if there's a hole in them by RAW.

If you take the fire domain, you can rebuke / command fire creatures as an evil cleric rebuke/commands undead. At any one time, the controller can command any number of creatures whose combined Hit Dice don't exceed his level.

However, with a turning check, only creatures that are half your level or less are vulnerable to being commanded. So usually, this will just get you some handy little utility minions, nothing that can contribute in combat against level-appropriate foes. But what if you could temporarily lower the effective level of a fire creature?

When you hit a creature with Ennervate,
"Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities)."

Are hit dice and levels synonymous for this purpose? If so, could a 10 HD creature be hit with five negative levels, and then Commanded by a cleric with the fire domain?

"The controller can voluntarily relinquish power over any commanded creature to command new ones. Otherwise, the commanded state is permanent." (Rules Compendium, p. 144)

So if the Command worked to begin with, would the commanded state endure after the negative levels wore off? The total HD commanded would still be within the maximum.

This would create a kind of Pokemon-esque situation where clerics might mount expeditions to find and ennervate fire (fire /air /water /earth /Scalykind /ooze) creatures to the point where they could be captured.

- Parsimony

Uhh...ya, actually. As long as the creatures effective HD do not exceed your own once the Negative Levels wear off, I think you'd be well within RAW. Heck, I'd allow it in my game for shear brilliance. :smalltongue:

[Makeitstop]

No.


Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.

For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.

Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
Negative levels do not take away HD. If they did, it wouldn't need to subtract hit points, and it would kill you after only half as many negative levels.

[Chronos]

They don't take away levels, but they do take away "effective levels". Sounds good to me.

[Pyromancer999]

They don't take away levels, but they do take away "effective levels". Sounds good to me.

HD are not "Effective levels", though.

[Chronos]

But number of levels is synonymous with number of HD, so effective levels should also be effective HD.

[The Random NPC]

No.


Negative levels do not take away HD. If they did, it wouldn't need to subtract hit points, and it would kill you after only half as many negative levels.

That does not flow, if it didn't take away HD then it would make sense to not take away hit points. You gain hit points from HD, and why would you only need half as many negative levels? You can gain HD from many sources, some are racial based and others are class based.

[theIrkin]

Also, assuming this works and allows you take over the enemy as with rebuke undead, would they remain under your command after the negative levels wore off. You quoted that the state is permanent, but wouldn't the domination be negated when the creature no longer met the initial qualification? That's interpretive, but it's interpretive either way.

[Makeitstop]

That does not flow, if it didn't take away HD then it would make sense to not take away hit points. You gain hit points from HD, and why would you only need half as many negative levels? You can gain HD from many sources, some are racial based and others are class based.
It takes away hit points, not HD. If it took away HD, the amount would vary based on the class and possibly the constituion modifier and specific rolls.

And if it took away HD, then by the rules quoted, your number of negative levels would equal or exceed your HD at halfway to 0 HD. If you keep your HD, then the only way for the negative levels to equal your HD is to accumulate one for each HD you possess, regardless of its source.

In short, levels and HD are different. And nowhere does it say that it reduces HD, just as it doesn't say that you give up feats, skill points or other things you gain with levels.

[Drachasor]

But number of levels is synonymous with number of HD, so effective levels should also be effective HD.

It is usually synonymous. When you toss in negative levels, it is no longer synonymous.

[The Random NPC]

It takes away hit points, not HD. If it took away HD, the amount would vary based on the class and possibly the constituion modifier and specific rolls.

And if it took away HD, then by the rules quoted, your number of negative levels would equal or exceed your HD at halfway to 0 HD. If you keep your HD, then the only way for the negative levels to equal your HD is to accumulate one for each HD you possess, regardless of its source.

In short, levels and HD are different. And nowhere does it say that it reduces HD, just as it doesn't say that you give up feats, skill points or other things you gain with levels.

Ok, I understand what you're saying now. I personally say that the amount of HP taken away is so you don't have to keep track of every roll, and I would say when people say negative levels remove HD, they mean they cancel out. In other words, when a negative level removes a HD, you effectively have neither negative levels or an equal number of HD. Of course, this is mostly interpretation, you are right by RAW.

[illyahr]

The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed.

Since Racial Hit Dice count for Effective Character Level, I usually take it to mean that anything that counts levels counts Racial HD as the reverse is true (anything that counts HD count all HD).

Since Negative Levels reduces the Effective Hit Dice, reducing a creature to less than half it's HD this way would open it up for Commanding and would remain under control until it was released or destroyed. The only stipulation on this is how many HD it has when the Negative Levels wear off as you have a maximum number of HD you can control.

As stated upthread, it's a matter of interpretation.

[Crake]

It is usually synonymous. When you toss in negative levels, it is no longer synonymous.

from the DnD glossary:


In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice (HD) of creatures.

So not usually synonymous, literally synonymous.

In this case, lowering a creature's effective level would likewise reduce it's effective HD. The control would be permanent, however as stated before, unless the creature's HD is equal to or less than your normal level, you would not retain control over it due to the limit on total number of creature HD you could control.

[Zubrowka74]

In this case, lowering a creature's effective level would likewise reduce it's effective HD. The control would be permanent, however as stated before, unless the creature's HD is equal to or less than your normal level, you would not retain control over it due to the limit on total number of creature HD you could control.

It cannot be because creatures can have HD without levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

It would be expensive, but one could do permenant level loss due to negative levels, then heal it back with Greater Restoration. It would be less of a RAW issue, as the creature would loose actual HD, then gain them back.

Though the langue use in the SRD sates.

"whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level"

Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)

This would suggest that even a temporary negative level would count for turning. The result of the turning check is a calculation that uses the HD of the creature.

One could then stack turning boosting items to get a higher turning level than your HD, meaning you could control a monster with significantly higher HD then your own.

[The Viscount]

I've seen a discussion of similar tricks to be used on undead, namely lyre of the restful soul to give negative turn resistance and then control the weakened undead. The argument seems very sound, since if the commanded condition could be undone through a change in effective HD evil clerics could bolster undead out of their control. I'd allow the trick, but I know not all DMs would.

[Drachasor]

from the DnD glossary:

...

So not usually synonymous, literally synonymous.

In this case, lowering a creature's effective level would likewise reduce it's effective HD. The control would be permanent, however as stated before, unless the creature's HD is equal to or less than your normal level, you would not retain control over it due to the limit on total number of creature HD you could control.

Hmm, seems I was mistaken. Thanks for looking up the reference.

[ddude987]

Don't negative levels take away hit dice if they become permanent? I remember that idea being used to play as some monsters without eating a bunch of racial hit dice. If so, you could give them permanent negative levels and then control them.

[Flickerdart]

Don't negative levels take away hit dice if they become permanent? I remember that idea being used to play as some monsters without eating a bunch of racial hit dice. If so, you could give them permanent negative levels and then control them.
Level drain from enervation never becomes permanent. You could Rebuke some wights though, and then have them drain your target elemental.

[Chronos]

Quoth Zubrowka74:

It cannot be because creatures can have HD without levels.
No, they can't. A wolf, for instance, has two levels in animal, and an ogre has four levels in giant.

And negative levels, from any source, never become permanent: They always go away after at most 24 hours. If you fail your save at that point, then what you have is not a permanent negative level, but a decrease in your level. Negative levels are designed to be an approximation to the effect of losing a level (because actually losing a level is too much of a pain to calculate in the middle of combat), but they're not the same thing.