Campaign Setting Cage Match!

[unseenmage]

List your preferred 3.0/3.5 Campaign Setting and the 5 most powerful forces that setting contains which could/would rise up and fight other Campaign Settings for superiority if either given the chance or the issue was forced.

In cases where a setting has a recorded history that extends both before or after 3.x, stuff from before counts for discussion but has to still exist in 3.x to count as a contender. Stuff from after 3.x simply doesn't exist yet.

Remember that the five listed forces must be:
- sentient, or commanded by a sentient being
- willing and able to defend their cosmology, be it for good or ill
- unique to their own setting
(might can the sentient qualifier if folk can give me good reason though)

Arguing for your chosen Setting or Champion should follow this format:
- Name (and preferrably source and page number) of your champion/Setting.
- Why it's better mechanically within the rules of the game.
- CR, HD, and damage output per round are all acceptable.
(An entire statblock isn't necessary, but some rules basis, some quantifiable thing that can be compared to the other champions is necessary.)
- Fluff may be used to back up your position but only if you can cite your source. Fluff may not trump crunch nor may fluff be used to Champion.

I suppose we'll set a time limit on this thing for x-mas. Come x-mas whichever Campaign Setting is still on top of the pile is the winner.
I'll try to keep the OP edited with everyone's choices. Hash out conflicting ideas of "most powerful forces" among yourselves. Please be patient.

Gods, monsters, sentient plot devices, whatever. Have fun with it.
If there's enough interest I may even include a humorous category for things like Faerun Pun-Pun vs Eberron Pun-Pun or Drizzt vs 'other plot armored character' type stuff.
Entries of this fashion should be made in blue for my convenience.

Suggestions for better clarifying the rules are more than welcome.
(the below lists are just a kickstarter, feel more than free to disagree. :smalltongue:)
(My examples are awful, in cses where I've listed a nation or something the name of the character who wields that nation should replace them if possible.)

The Standings


Faerun
- Ao
- Mystra
- Elmisnter
- Chauntea
- Manshoon


Dragonlance
- The Beloved of Chemosh
- Heroes of the Lance
- Mina and army
- Draconians
- Knights if Solamnia



Call of Cthulhu
- Azzathoth
- Yog Sothoth
- Nyarlathotep
- Cthulhu*
- Hastur*
*Note: rankings after the big three are less sure.

Eberron
- strongest
- second strongest
- third strongest
- almost weakest
- weakest

Iron Kingdoms
- strongest
- second strongest
- third strongest
- almost weakest
- weakest

Dragonmech
- strongest
- second strongest
- third strongest
- almost weakest
- weakest

Your Favorite Campaign Setting Here
- strongest
- second strongest
- third strongest
- almost weakest
- weakest

[cakellene]

I doubt Ao would defend the realm.

[FinnDarkblade]

I doubt Ao would defend the realm.

Wasn't that why he acted and banished all the Faerunian deities down to the Material Plane? It's his responsibility to make sure the Forgotten Realms is running smoothly.

[Honest Tiefling]

Should I be listing the Campaign Settings I like, or the ones I want to see it duke it out? Also, I thought Pun-Pun was only doable with a FR monster? Would that make Pun-Pun FR only?


Wasn't that why he acted and banished all the Faerunian deities down to the Material Plane? It's his responsibility to make sure the Forgotten Realms is running smoothly.

And he did a bang up job with the Time of Troubles. So maybe his definition of running smoothly is less that it is inhabitable by measly mortals he doesn't even pay attention to, but rather that he's not steering the mess into the Far Realm.

[unseenmage]

Should I be listing the Campaign Settings I like, or the ones I want to see it duke it out? Also, I thought Pun-Pun was only doable with a FR monster? Would that make Pun-Pun FR only?



And he did a bang up job with the Time of Troubles. So maybe his definition of running smoothly is less that it is inhabitable by measly mortals he doesn't even pay attention to, but rather that he's not steering the mess into the Far Realm.

Both? And I had no clue whether Pun-Pun could be done in both worlds or not. Never built one myself. :smallsmile:

[Greenish]

Eberron
- House Cannith
- House Lyrandar
- Nation of Breland
- City of Stormreach
- The Lord of BladesWhat about The Undying Court, or Argonnessen (the whole place, not just the Chamber - notice what happened to the giants?). The Quori basically worship status quo in the current cosmology.

Stormreach (hah) can barely govern itself, let alone exert force beyond the city.


[Edit]: I realized you're not familiar with Eberron beyond Khorvaire. Edited to be less of an a-hole.

[unseenmage]

What about The Undying Court, or Argonnessen (the whole place, not just the Chamber - notice what happened to the giants?). The Quori basically worship status quo in the current cosmology.

Stormreach (hah) can barely govern itself, let alone exert force beyond the city.


[Edit]: I realized you're not familiar with Eberron beyond Khorvaire. Edited to be less of an a-hole.

No, that's okay. I did mention that my examples were examples. Line your picks up in order of strongest to weakest champions of Eberron and lay 'em on me. As the first submission yours would go right on up and replace mine.

Same goes for the first submissions for any Campaign.

Edit: Matter of fact, I'm going to go change all my "examples" to descriptions instead of names.

[Honest Tiefling]

Then if I know my Forgotten Realms from too much NWN...

Faerun
- Ao
- Mystra
- Elmisnter
- Chauntea
- Manshoon

Manshoon should likely be replaced with a Chosen of Mystra, but I really like Manshoon.

[Greenish]

Hmm, you want actual stat blocks. That's a bit tricky since Eberron doesn't really do that (even good ol' LoBsters stat block is stated to be not canon).

The strongest group by the number of high level mentioned characters are probably the Inspired, who sport a bunch of level 20 psions, but even those aren't usually statted. (Mentioned in Secrets of Sarlona.)

The strongest statted dragon I can think of has monk levels (well, just one) and is thus unfit to fight. (Dragons of Eberron pg. 73.)

[unseenmage]

Hmm, you want actual stat blocks. That's a bit tricky since Eberron doesn't really do that (even good ol' LoBsters stat block is stated to be not canon).

The strongest group by the number of high level mentioned characters are probably the Inspired, who sport a bunch of level 20 psions, but even those aren't usually statted. (Mentioned in Secrets of Sarlona.)

The strongest statted dragon I can think of has monk levels (well, just one) and is thus unfit to fight. (Dragons of Eberron pg. 73.)

Statblocks are less necessary that just some rules basis, some measurable quantity beyond the fluff.

If for example, and this is only an example, there is a creature you fancy listed as a deity and you can find some line of text supporting all deities having that god ability to control reality within a certain reality then that could qualify as a champion.

[Zanos]

I'd argue that Larloch is probably more powerful than either Manshoon or Eliminster.

[Tvtyrant]

Does Spelljammer count? Because I am using the Spelljammer. A giant all but invincible ship that can produce Sphere's of Annihilation at will (which no one else can effect and it can steer for miles?) It is living death to anything it encounters (that isn't safely tucked away in another dimension.)

[unseenmage]

Does Spelljammer count? Because I am using the Spelljammer. A giant all but invincible ship that can produce Sphere's of Annihilation at will (which no one else can effect and it can steer for miles?) It is living death to anything it encounters (that isn't safely tucked away in another dimension.)

Yeah so long as there's a 3.x version. Give it this treatment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16540673&postcount=8) and I'll add it on up.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah so long as there's a 3.x version. Give it this treatment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16540673&postcount=8) and I'll add it on up.

le sigh, it is a dead setting from yesteryear. I missed the 3.0/3.5 part somehow.

[Epsilon Rose]

How about Call of Cthulhu (which received a d20 port)?
If that's acceptable, I'd go with:

Your Favorite Campaign Setting Here
- Azzathoth
- Yog Sothoth
- Nyarlathotep
- Cthulhu*
- Hastur*
*Note: rankings after the big three are less sure.

[unseenmage]

How about Call of Cthulhu (which received a d20 port)?
If that's acceptable, I'd go with:

I'll allow it, added.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure Azathoth qualifies as sentient.

[Epsilon Rose]

I'm not sure Azathoth qualifies as sentient.

Well on one hand, he's described as "The Blind Idiot God", but on the other hand he's described as 'dreaming' and having urges (at least CoC D20 says "His greatest urge is that of entropy") and neither of those concepts are usually ascribed to non-sentient things (not that the outer gods don't break everything, including adjectives, by default). Of course, it's not like we can really find out, because if he ever wakes up, every thing ends.

Also, Cthulhu should probably get bumped down a category (with Hastur going off the list), since CoC D20 lists Shub-Niggurath as an outer god, putting it at least as far beyond Cthulhu as he is beyond us...
Yes, Cthulhu is the weakest of CoC's big 5.

[Oxydeur]

Then if I know my Forgotten Realms from too much NWN...

Faerun
- Ao
- Mystra
- Elmisnter
- Chauntea
- Manshoon

Manshoon should likely be replaced with a Chosen of Mystra, but I really like Manshoon.

Manshoon ? why not Szass Tam, he is a real bad-ass ! He is the only one who make Elminster pee himself and...
a friend told me that, following published things, he actually kill Elminster between 3.5e and 4e

And why not the Simbul ? She actually able to fight an entire Thay's red magician army and defeat them ! Following her stats she is able to transform into a chain lightning effect *AT-WILL*.


But for this cage match, is this really necessary to tag NPC along Gods ? There is a huge gap in power between them. Shouldn't we make separate pools ?

[Monkeylancer]

Larloch is more powerful than either Manshoon or Eliminster.

:smallbiggrin:

[Hamste]

Dragonlance
The Beloved of Chemosh
Heroes of the Lance
Mina and army
Draconians
Knights if Solamnia


I know none of these forces are gods but some of these forces are quite notable. The Beloved of Chemosh are immortal to everything but children and any given child can kill one. Through heroes of the lance are noted for taking a god in a fight and Raistlin almost made it to godhood. Mina made the most evil of the evil gods and even the god of undeath nervous. Draconians made from the malformed eggs of good dragons they were almost as bad after death as before death. Knights of Solmania...well they were pretty bad but figured I would point them out.

[Psyren]

Golarion and The Snarl Rovagug :smalltongue:

(Golarion canonically has Cthulhu. What do I win?)

[angry_bear]

So if something like Ravenloft or Planescape is listed, do we include the embodiment of fiat of those settings like The Lady of Pain or The Mists? Just curious...

[Epsilon Rose]

(Golarion canonically has Cthulhu. What do I win?)

Second place. :smalltongue:

[satorian]

So if something like Ravenloft or Planescape is listed, do we include the embodiment of fiat of those settings like The Lady of Pain or The Mists? Just curious...

Yeah, I was gonna say. Lady of Pain just wins in Sigil. She just wins. Nope, not even that. However, by the same token, she would never attack a prime crystal sphere.

The only real argument for a defeat of the Lady's domain of Sigil would be if some Far Realm elder evil destroyed the entire multiverse, and Sigil was deemed to be part thereof.

[HaikenEdge]

Is D&D 3.5 Theoretical Optimization a "campaign setting"? I mean, all the CharOp builds technically exist in the same universe, given they follow the same rules (RAW) and all that jazz.

[ddude987]

Dragonlance
The Beloved of Chemosh
Heroes of the Lance
Mina and army
Draconians
Knights if Solamnia


I know none of these forces are gods but some of these forces are quite notable. The Beloved of Chemosh are immortal to everything but children and any given child can kill one. Through heroes of the lance are noted for taking a god in a fight and Raistlin almost made it to godhood. Mina made the most evil of the evil gods and even the god of undeath nervous. Draconians made from the malformed eggs of good dragons they were almost as bad after death as before death. Knights of Solmania...well they were pretty bad but figured I would point them out.

Isn't Mina a god actually? I forgot the resolution of that whole conspiracy.

[FinnDarkblade]

And he did a bang up job with the Time of Troubles. So maybe his definition of running smoothly is less that it is inhabitable by measly mortals he doesn't even pay attention to, but rather that he's not steering the mess into the Far Realm.

Right, he's an overdeity. His priorities are a bit different from a mortals. And if you remember the bit about him reporting to his boss, he apparently did do well. I would think that a war between cosmoses would be exactly the kind of thing that he would have to take care of. Probably not directly mind you, but he would take some actions.

[Hamste]

Isn't Mina a god actually? I forgot the resolution of that whole conspiracy.
I think she did as the Goddess of Tears, a deity with no pantheon. To tell you the truth I never really liked her character (She is quite obviously evil...it seemed almost like a half-hearted attempt to show her as both evil and good. I am a bit biased however due to Chemosh being my favourite god in Krynn.) so I didn't pay much attention to what happened to her.

[Honest Tiefling]

Manshoon ? why not Szass Tam, he is a real bad-ass ! He is the only one who make Elminster pee himself and...

And why not the Simbul ? She actually able to fight an entire Thay's red magician army and defeat them ! Following her stats she is able to transform into a chain lightning effect *AT-WILL*.

Well, I am not going to lie and say I am not biased against the Chosen of Mystra. I really dislike them. I have a thing for the Zhents, but Szass Tam is also a good villain before you take into account his deeds...

[Psyren]

Every time Mystra sneezes Simbul loses her mind though. I give all the Chosen a resounding meh really. Khelben got pwned by a bard in Elfsong for crying out loud. And Elminster badly needs to learn the retraining rules.

[137beth]

Golarion and The Snarl Rovagug :smalltongue:

(Golarion canonically has Cthulhu. What do I win?)

Meh, Golarion is a pushover compared to other settings--they don't even have epic magic. Sure, Cthulhu is in B4, but it's a measly CR 30 creature that can be soloed with only Paizo books, possibly without being mythic at level 20 (there was a thread on this on the Paizo forums...)

And really, Rovagug seems like a less intelligent version of Khyber:smalltongue:

[ddude987]

I think she did as the Goddess of Tears, a deity with no pantheon. To tell you the truth I never really liked her character (She is quite obviously evil...it seemed almost like a half-hearted attempt to show her as both evil and good. I am a bit biased however due to Chemosh being my favourite god in Krynn.) so I didn't pay much attention to what happened to her.

Ah. I am quite the opposite, and love Mina. However, I didn't read her arc until years after the Chronicles and Legends books.

[Psyren]

Meh, Golarion is a pushover compared to other settings--they don't even have epic magic.

Have you seen what the other settings use epic magic to do? It's a colossal joke. Spellcraft DC 152 to do 20d6 damage in a 120ft. radius? Bleh.



Sure, Cthulhu is in B4, but it's a measly CR 30 creature that can be soloed with only Paizo books, possibly without being mythic at level 20 (there was a thread on this on the Paizo forums...)

You might be able to solo a Great Old One, but it has no reason to solo you. They recruit fanatic cultists without thinking about it and can even grant spells, so if you go up against one, you're going up against multiple epic or near-epic cleric or other spellcasting followers too.

[The Insanity]

Nine Hells - Asmodeus and his archdevils.

Forgotten Realms - there's always Srinshee (54th level - Wizard29/Sorcerer16/Archmage9).

[EugeneVoid]

House Tippy

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