Help for a new player with an archery ranger

[Sugarbear007]

Howdy all. :P

I am new to D&D and I started with a group not to long ago. I invited a friend who is also new to D&D. I'm trying to help and though I know more than he does, and I read a lot it’s not saying much. He wants to have a ranger. He wants a grizzled manly woodsman kind of guy so he’s picked a human character. He likes the idea of having some spells. He also wants the character to be an archer. I was under the impression that they were kind of on the cruddy side.

I showed him the swift hunter feat and he’s ok with taking some scout levels for the skirmish damage and being able to hit skirmish on things immune to critical hits if their a favored enemy. He’d prefer to do sneaking damage like a rogue. I know there is a spell (sniper shots I believe) that allows a long range sneak attack, but I think it’s just a single shot, not the volleys of arrows he’d like, not to mention I don’t think there is a feat like swift hunter that combines ranger / rogue stuff.

His character hates mages, as they’ve wronged him in the past (typical vengeance backstory for fantasy you know how it goes). I mentioned that I read something about an alternate class feature that gives you archanists as a favored enemy, though I can’t remember where I saw it.

He got some great dice rolls 15, 15, 15, 14, 17, 17 to work with.

So let me get right down to it.

The game is set in the forgotten realms.

The only base classes allowed by our DM are those listed in PHB2.

Prestige classes can be anything so long as it fits with the characters story. He’s creative so that should be fine either way.

Our DM is allowing two classes for multiclassing before an experience penalty. If you use a favored class its three.

Feats, Alternate class features, and gear enchantments can be from any 3.5 book.

Our DM is very by the book and strict so nothing that’s “could be interpreted” if you think about it this way. It will be simply as read.

Any non-official sources are invalid like dragon magazine or homebrew things.

The archery and Ranger class are definitely must haves for him.

He is not sold on having an animal companion. If he does he thought about having a horse as he thinks mounted archery would be kind of cool too.


The goal is to hopefully help Jerry get some good damage, be stealthy, and as versatile as he can be.

That’s probably not much to work with, but any advice is appreciated.

[Honest Tiefling]

I am no optimizer, but I believe that the Silver Marches book has the Peerless Archer he might want to look into, but it might tank his spells. Prestige Ranger might help him out a bit.

Depending on how strict your DM is (And you are saying he is strict), a ranger will need a deity to cast spells.

[Sugarbear007]

Thanks for the reply.

I do know the answer to that deity question. He chose Gwearon Windstrom.

Our DM doesn't like what he calls "frivolous dipping". So we have that previously mentioned restriction on how many classes can be multi-classed in. Also anything we do have has to make sense in the characters backstory, or future roleplaying sessions. He'll work it in if we say something like "hey, I'd like to have some cleric levels, can we work going to some monastery where my guy can stay a while and learn."

He's very much about the story.

If it helps its is supposed to be a long ongoing campaign. It will supposedly go to all corners of the world, so there won't be anything like "this is an undead heavy campaign build accordingly." There will be all kinds of different situations. City and woodlands and probably underdark settings. The DM likes drow.

Also The ranger will be starting at level 5 with 9k gold to spend, sorry that was probably pertinent.

I know that the concept is his ranger is extremely intelligent. He's considering putting one of those 17's into INT. That would give him 10 skill points a level.

Would something like Able Learner be a good idea for him then? He'd have a good amount of skill points to spend each level. Would he then be able to use magic device to use arcane wands and give him a bit more versatility? He'd be at his character level instead of character level + 3, is that +3 that big of a deal?

[Kennisiou]

Honestly Swift Hunter still seems like the way to go for that. You get good mobility, can be stealthy, and it combines the two class features nicely. I don't know how the player or the DM would feel about the often-suggested one-level Cloistered Cleric dip for travel devotion and knowledge devotion, but I'm leaving it on the table anyways since it makes the character a lot stronger and assuming there's no restrictions placed (clerics have to be devoted to a certain god) it's pretty nice and easy to fluff around (especially as a grizzled veteran woodsman learning more about spiritual magic to gain a greater mastery over the wilderness). Even without the 1 cleric level it's still a solid build and definitely gives you the versatility, damage, and stealth focus you want. If it's against the rules given, then there's not a ton for great archery prestige classes.

The aforementioned Peerless Archer isn't bad, and Cragtop Archer is nice in campaigns that take place heavily outdoors in wide open spaces since you can get some serious range.

Be careful with mounted archery: it is a trap. A good animal companion for rangers is usually something like a bird that can be good for skill checks and scouting, since anything that's meant to have combat utility is likely to not be very good without some serious feat investment. There's a dragon magazine ACF called Solitary Hunter that you may want to run by the DM that lets a ranger trade out his animal companion for getting his favored enemy bonus to hit in addition to its other benefits. I know, no dragon magazine, but it never hurts to ask anyways and it definitely sounds like it fits the fluff of the character.


Edit: Able learner is never really a bad idea. I'd definitely consider it, especially if he plans to go knowledge devotion later on for more damage since it lets him spend fewer skill points on those cross-class knowledge skills.

[Temotei]

Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) would be a good idea if he's going to be intelligent. Advise that he invest in the Knowledge skills that are relevant against creature types (especially whatever types his favored enemies are, for flavor) and get at least 1 rank in ones he's not going to really invest in.

Aim for getting Hank's energy bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) if possible. Splitting is a good enhancement for later levels, too.

Scout 4/Ranger 16 is the usual Swift Hunter build, if I remember correctly. Four levels isn't really a frivolous dip, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Oh, and for stealth, he's going to want Darkstalker. Basically makes him able to sneak up on creatures with blindsense and other really great senses.

[Honest Tiefling]

Huh. Apparently his deity has both Knowledge AND Travel domains. Maybe he could have been a travelling cleric that taught people in poorer villages. He saw his family die to Zhentarim mages and then took up the bow to stalk and kill every evil mage, taking the path of the ranger to better track down and assassinate his targets?

[Temotei]

Huh. Apparently his deity has both Knowledge AND Travel domains.

Well, add in Travel Devotion (CChamp) to my suggestions for feats. If you can find some way to get more uses, it's very good for a Swift Hunter.

[Kennisiou]

Huh. Apparently his deity has both Knowledge AND Travel domains. Maybe he could have been a travelling cleric that taught people in poorer villages. He saw his family die to Zhentarim mages and then took up the bow to stalk and kill every evil mage, taking the path of the ranger to better track down and assassinate his targets?

Holy **** that is awesome! Yeah, that would make dipping cloistered cleric or regular cleric for the two domains a pretty solid idea and pretty easily justifiable fluff-wise, all comes down to if the DM thinks it's "frivilous" to allow him access to something that is basically necessary for the build to function well and also if the player can really see his character as someone faithful enough to justify the one-level cleric dip over one of his later ranger levels.

[Honest Tiefling]

Given the dogma, I think as long as he protects the wilderness, helps others live in harmony with the wilderness, and stops Hoggish Greedly from torching the forests, he'll be fine. The full dogma is:

"Intelligent beings can live in harmony with the wild without requiring the destruction of one in the name of the other. Embrace the wild and fear it not, because the wild ways are good ways. Keep the Balance and learn the hidden ways of life, but stress the positive and outreaching nature of the wild. Do not allow trees to be needlessly felled or the forest needlessly burned. Live as one with the woods, teach others to do so, and punish and curtail those that hunt for sport or practice cruelties on wild creatures."

[Sugarbear007]

Thanks again everyone for the information.

I'll definitely let him know. I guess he couldn't have planned that better. I'm sure we can get the DM to back this as it does seem to fit perfectly.

Any opinions on the able learner idea?

[Temotei]

Any opinions on the able learner idea?

As mentioned, Able Learner is never really a bad idea. It's not a high priority, but if it fits his character, go for it.

[Kennisiou]

Thanks again everyone for the information.

I'll definitely let him know. I guess he couldn't have planned that better. I'm sure we can get the DM to back this as it does seem to fit perfectly.

Any opinions on the able learner idea?

Edited my opinion into my original post at the end, but I'll expand on it:

Able learner is mostly only good if you want knowledge devotion. For the most part the skills your player appears to want to use are class skills in both of his classes (survival, hide, move silently, and spot and listen to give him something to do while hiding and moving silently). For the most part able learner will be useful for him if he goes knowledge devotion later (a really good idea), and it helps him if he decides to nab some social skills or to nab search, disable device, and open lock for the full sneak-thief suite. It's not a bad choice, I guess is what I'm saying.

[Honest Tiefling]

If you have other skill monkeys, it is less good, so what IS the rest of the party? (Please don't say evil mages)

[Sugarbear007]

oh, sorry about that. Missed the edit entirely.

Thanks again everyone for the help. I'll send my friend a link to this thread. Probably the DM too.

[Sugarbear007]

If you have other skill monkeys, it is less good, so what IS the rest of the party? (Please don't say evil mages)

Lol well I'm playing a conjuration type wizard so I'm sure there will be many steely gazes thrown my way.

We've also got a Fighter whos specializing in tripping (with a weapon not drugs)

A regular old doo'dad (druid)

A duskblade who started out first level as a Marshal till she read up on their suckage and rethought it. She kept marshal cause she was in love with the backs story. She's actually got pretty darn high diplomacy because of it.

and a Sorcerer who is being built to hurl elemental destruction. I think people refer to them as blasters.

We had a rogue but he's not able to join us for a while.

[Kennisiou]

Lol well I'm playing a conjuration type wizard so I'm sure there will be many steely gazes thrown my way.

We've also got a Fighter whos specializing in tripping (with a weapon not drugs)

A regular old doo'dad (druid)

A duskblade who started out first level as a Marshal till she read up on their suckage and rethought it. She kept marshal cause she was in love with the backs story. She's actually got pretty darn high diplomacy because of it.

and a Sorcerer who is being built to hurl elemental destruction. I think people refer to them as blasters.

We had a rogue but he's not able to join us for a while.

If the rogue's not able to join for longer or leaves then able learner will be a great benefit. It's also super useful if for any reason the rogue is lacking some essential party skills since it would let the swift hunter cover them. At this point it's really a matter of him and the rogue comparing character sheets and seeing if he needs able learner to effectively fill any skill gaps the rogue has or if he needs able learner to really get the most out of his knowledge devotion. If neither of those shoes fit, it's not the feat for him.

[TuggyNE]

If Cloistered Cleric doesn't pan out, Greater Manyshot (XPH, not a [psionic] feat) is a good way to go. Almost as many shots as a Rapid Shot full attack, and probably more likely to hit, and each of them gets skirmish damage. Works especially well for readying to disrupt an enemy's spells, since there are very few casters that can manage the Concentration check for "full attack as a readied action".

[Firechanter]

He might also go at it the other way round: (Cloistered) Cleric with a few (2-ish) Ranger levels.
Heaps of Skillpoints, Able Learner, free Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, one more Domain of his choice. Might consider DMM Persist.

Later on, Zen Archery, when the difference between Wis and Dex makes it worthwhile.
Also, grab a Monk's Belt at mid levels for Wis to AC.

[Kennisiou]

It could actually also make an interesting way to start the character out, too. Level 1 cleric/cloistered cleric of the travel/knowledge god for the devotions, became a ranger after mages did tragic **** to the monestary (possibly something that only happened because of his own personal failures as some sort), now seeks holy and personal vengeance by wandering the wilderness as a badass intelligent grizzled nature warrior guy with a bow, seeking to eventually one day redeem him in his own eyes so he can retire and once again join his god's service.

Edit:

For added pathos, if he manages to finish his redemption subplot but the party still needs him for mainplot reasons, prominent church members try to convince him to come back but he can't because he has responsibilities, so he becomes a character torn by his desire to go back to his old life and someone who's living a different life now, and maybe he eventually comes to realize that he has no place any more in his old life as adventuring has changed him too deeply.

[Sugarbear007]

So the DM is allowing everything since it all links up well story wise as well as build wise.

How would that look as far as a build goes?

Does it matter what levels of a particular class he takes first?

He was thinking starting as a scout so he could get the extra skill points.

[Red Fel]

If you're not sold on an animal companion, consider Distracting Attack from PHB II. Lose animal companion, gain flanking. Basically, anyone you attack gets treated as flanked, boom.

Let's take that a step further. Say you were going with Scout/Ranger and Swift Hunter? Sounds nice. But now let's throw in a level of Rogue, with Sneak Attack. And on top of that, we pile Swift Ambusher. Boom, you can now stack your Rogue levels with your Scout levels (as well as Ranger levels) for purposes of Skirmish. More importantly, you can stack your Scout levels with Rogue levels for Sneak Attack. That means that, for only a level invested in Rogue, you get treated as a much higher-level Rogue when sneak attacking - which happens a lot, seeing as your attacks cause your opponents to be flanked. And since Scout already gets Trapfinding, you could ACF that away - there are some Rogue ACFs that lose Trapfinding for something else.

[Kennisiou]

I'd probably go something like...

Scout 1 (point blank shot is a must here, probably nab precise shot as well)
Ranger 1
Ranger 2 (this feat is open)
Cleric 1 (now you can swift move, knowledge devote, and rapid shot)
Scout 2
Scout 3 (swift hunter prereq met now, so take it)
ranger 3
ranger 4
ranger 5 (improved skirmish)
ranger 6
ranger 7
ranger 8 (greater manyshot or improved rapid shot, depending on if you want to stay active without activating travel devotion or hit more frequently with it active)

and basically after that just take ranger levels, substituting one with a scout level when you decide you want improved initiative as a bonus feat.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's kinda a pity that you are source limited to only the two PHB's.

Factotum 4/ Targetteer Fighter 2/ Decisive Strike Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2/ Swordsage 1/ Ranger 11 makes a surprisingly good archer type ranger.

Grab Able Learner so that its basically like all skills are always class skills for you.
Darkstalker, Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance, the various archery feats (Martial Monk gets you two of them without prerequisites, which can arguably be Epic and thus let you pick up Distant Shot), Quick Reconnoiter (one free action spot and listen check each round), Craven, and a good sprinkling of Font of Inspiration. Possibly replace one level of Factotum with Shiba Protector to pick up Wis to damage as well.

Assassin's Stance gives you always on sneak attack which means that any attack that qualifies as a sneak attack gets to add your level to your damage roll thanks to craven.

Invisible Fist lets you spend every 4th round invisible and thus makes up for loosing out on Hide in Plain Sight. Monk also gets you 3 feats over two levels and Wis to AC when not wearing armor.

If you drop Factotum down to 3 levels you could up Swordsage to two levels which saves you a feat on Martial Study and gets you Wis to AC in Light Armor, which fits somewhat better thematically.

That, however, makes you miss out on the spike damage that you were getting from Cunning Strike when you really wanted to throw out a massive damage attack (even taking Font of Inspiration 3 times would let you throw out a +11d6 sneak attack, with five times it would be a +20d6 sneak attack).

Targetteer Fighter would get you +Dex to ranged attacks (such as with your bow) while Factotum adds on Int to Attack and Damage rolls for 1 IP each.

Ability wise you would go max Dex with Wis and Int secondary. Bump Wis higher if you want to focus more on the spell casting or Int higher if you want to focus more on the skill monkey/archer part.

[Sugarbear007]

With a level of Cleric (cloistered) if i understand it right (and its quite likely I don't) that means he would gain the ability to use wands with spells from cleric spell list right?

Does that mean he can use wands from spells he could cast with his one cleric level? namely level 0 and 1, or any from the cleric list 0 to 9?

Would that also include wands of spells from the lists of domains chosen?

[Kennisiou]

Yes, he can use wands/scrolls for spells of any cleric level and yes that includes domains chosen. That said, he'll be taking two of his domains chosen (knowledge and travel) and using a rule in complete champion to trade them in for the feats knowledge devotion and travel devotion, so he'll only gain spells from one domain.

The cleric dip does a lot for his flexibility in addition to helping his build "go live" with knowledge and travel devotion as free bonus feats and a turning pool to power travel devotion. All in all, it's pretty useful.

[Sugarbear007]

Great, thanks again everyone for the input. I think this character will turn out pretty well. Its his first one and the campaign should take forever and a day so I was anxious for him to have one he'd enjoy (ie not suck).

[killem2]

if you want to keep it simple: Flying Mask + foot bow, :) crank out the str mod damage.

[gorfnab]

Here are some handbooks that may provide you with some insight:
Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=e6fbnjr6p7n165f5tr5gan1r65&topic=103.0)
Archery Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=642.0)
Piggy Knowles Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284283)

Here are two Swift Hunter builds I've used before

Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Scout
3. Scout - Alertness (prereq for SoK)
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Favored of the Champions (prereq for SoK)
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Stalker of Kharash
9. Stalker of Kharash - Nemesis: Evil
10. Ranger - B: Endurance
11. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF)
12. Ranger - Improved Skirmish
13. Ranger - B: Manyshot
14. Ranger
15. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
16. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - Darkstalker, B: Improved Precise Shot
19. Ranger
20. Ranger


Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Education
2. Scout
3. Scout - Precise Shot
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Improved Skirmish
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Ranger - B: Endurance
9. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF), Knowledge Devotion
10. Ranger
11. Ranger - B: Manyshot
12. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
13. Ranger
14. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
15. Ranger - Darkstalker
16. Ranger - B: Improved Precise Shot
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - *Open Feat*
19. Ranger
20. Ranger

*Penetrating Shot, Nemesis: Arcanist, Dead Eye (Drg#304), or some other appropriate feat. If you're playing in Forgotten Realms take Sword of the Arcane Order at 15th and Darkstalker or Nemesis: Arcanist at 18th.