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Chells
2013-12-03, 11:32 AM
I am putting together a Planescape campaign with d20 rules. The plot is going to have a character with a plan to destroy the multiverse. I don't yet know who this guy is yet. I do know that he is not a god-level power. He is going to use 'science' more than might to wipe out the verse.

I have been coming at this from two angles.

1) Is there already a nihilistic character already in the D&D roster. Even if I have to tweak the character, using something established has a strong appeal.

2) If I going to make my own villain, what is driving him/her? So far I have the basic tropes of

a-1) All existence is pain, oblivion is release
a-2) My existence is pain, oblivion would be better
b) just want to watch it all burn
c) I will survive this and rebuild the next verse to my liking
d) Didn't mean for it to go this far.
e) I'll show you, I'll show you ALL!!
f) If I can't have x, no-one will
g) Oops (thanks maxriderules)

I'm not wild about any of them. C least of all (since I can't think of a way he could survive) . Still with the right story the others could work well.

So a bit if help here.
Is there a someone already I can build off of?
Is there another motivation I'm missing?
Does anyone have a good back-story for the guy who wants to push the button?

:roach: EDIT: :roach:
After mulling over the advice so far I am wavering between a pair of tools:

I liked kidjake's schizophrenic idea. There is a prisoner of Carceri who would rather not exist any more than remain eternally bound. The prisoner has been whispering to a madman in some other plane who is doing the actual work. The tool will be dangerous enough to be a good middle fight but not actually the ultimate bad guy.
I think I will work out some way that even if oblivion is averted the prisoner is freed so the players can take him down again.

The Grue's suggestion, as well as a few other bits of advice, yielded this idea. An artificer has been hurt by some god/power. He builds a construct with the the express goal of destroying that being and orders it "to let nothing stop it." Since power X is so far beyond the golem's ability to harm, it figures the only way to accomplish its directive is to wipe everything out. When artificer realizes what the construct is trying to do he tries to stop it and is killed by his creation.
The soul of the Artificer cannot move on and over the years becomes a maddened spectre. It wants the players to stop the golem but is so crazy that they have taken this long to get here it lashes out at them, spewing info and a fight.

I am not wedded to either of these but they are my favorites so far. Any other suggestions? Any refinements to either of those ideas?

Also I would still love any D&D established characters for this. Anyone know of a list of some of Carceri's inmates?

maxriderules
2013-12-03, 01:05 PM
As a possible motivation for a science-based apocalypse, 'I'm just interested to see if it works' is good for a mad scientist. Killing everyone because it'll just be a fascinating experiment. Kind of links to E, as in 'I got kicked out of the university for crimes against nature, but after this experiment they're sure to see the error of their ways'.

Mastikator
2013-12-03, 02:19 PM
Nihilism isn't about destroying the universe, it's more likely that an anti-natalist would be in favor of that. This may seem trivial but not when answering question #2, a nihilist may be driven, but not by any higher purpose. The only reason a nihilist would want to destroy the universe would be "for fun", which is not reason befitting someone with the intelligence required of someone to actually destroy the universe.
Option a is explicitly an anti-natalist.

I think this is a problem of scale. The universe is vast, vast beyond imagining, and a person is tiny and insignificant, so the whole "destroy the universe" thing is kinda silly, or inevitable.

But does he actually need to want to destroy the universe + being able to? Isn't it plenty to want to make the planet uninhabitable? Or maybe kill an important god that is responsible for keeping some balance in the world?

Jacob.Tyr
2013-12-03, 02:28 PM
It's hard to imagine a nihilist caring enough to try and end everything...

If someone firmly believed in A and was selfish enough to want to get out I'd have a hard time imagining them caring enough about others to bring them with . If they cared enough to want to bring others with them, they'd preach and convince others to commit suicide I'd guess. Otherwise they'd just off them self. **EXCEPTION**: The movie Dogma. The villain was stuck for eternity in Hell, and wanted to end everything as, in that world, that was the only way out. This doesn't work well in Planescape, though. Perhaps your BBEG is trapped in some permanent prison dimension, and can't actually escape but has managed to influence others from inside of it?

B sort of makes sense, if you can watch the end of existence somehow? I think this trope has been overdone, though, especially since The Dark Knight came out. I've seen/played in too many games where the DM thought this was a brilliant and original BBEG setup (it is not). The goal for that sort of chaos inducing isn't usually "end it all" but "watch it burn"; screw everything up and watch people scramble to try and save it. Your goal isn't to actually succeed, just make everyone else have to deal with horrible fallout.

I'm not fond of C, either. Planescape already has a ton of verses, and to be able to create one implies a level of power I don't think you want for your BBEG to have based on the initial post.

I like D, though. I tend to enjoy tragic villains, and one who was just messing around until he wound up causing reality to begin to unwind is interesting. Hell, he may be actively trying to stop it by the end. Someone who's hubris resulted in the unraveling of the multiverse and has annoyed the PC's to no end, suddenly turning into a helpless person who can't undo what they've started is a nice twist - your players will still want to kill them, but they're no longer the issue with the campaign world.

E- The desire to "Show you all" again implies, to me, a desire for both people and things to show them. Crushing the world under her heel, sure. Burning down society and enslaving everyone into her idea of Utopia? Why not? Kill everyone and destroy everything is not conducive to show and tell, though.

F has potential. It'd require one hell of a dejected villain, though. I don't think I'm good enough of a writer to come up with an interesting back story for this, at least not at the level of wiping out everything to keep others from having "x".
Maybe your BBEG is a machine of some kind, that is unfortunately aware of the fact that it does not have a soul yet every living thing will die and enjoy eternity on some other plane? It has already become outdated, is decaying and rusting and no longer has a purpose. It will one day stop functioning entirely, and just cease to be. It resents this, as those who created it did not give it a soul. Their creators gave them a soul and an afterlife, and it resents them for this oversight. The solution? Take that away from the creators. Destroy all the planes and all of their souls, make them cease as I will cease.


I kinda like Maxride's idea as well. "Huh, that was interesting..." as the first universe goes 'pop'. 'I wonder if tweaking it like this...' And there goes another...
"Cool! I wonder what else I can make this thing do! Man, everyone laughed at my inventions, but wait till they get a load of this thing! Now I just have to test it a few more times and make sure it works perfectly!" 'pop' 'pop' 'pop'

JeenLeen
2013-12-03, 02:30 PM
Maybe you can draw on some other games' villains and put your own spin on their history/motivations.

Final Fantasy 6 (3 USA)

Kefka wants to just spread suffering and pain, but he is fairly nihilistic. He wants to build a monument to non-existence and eventually kill everything. Sort of a mix of "full the evil fun of it" and "everything is suffering, so let me end everything". He's also insane.


Arcanum

The final boss wants to end all life because he realizes that life is suffering but the afterlife has a potential for true release and rest. Thus, he wants to lead everyone to that final rest.

He's a rational and almost kind person, wanting to help everyone. But he sees them all as short-sighted, and he's very willing to kill, pose as an evil being, or do whatever is possible to end all life. An interesting aspect is that, in the game, you can convince him that he's wrong if you have good enough diplomacy. Maybe something to add to your game to add an alternative way of beating the final boss?

I think there may have been some metaphysical thing that as long as life exists, not everything can move on, too, but I don't really remember.


I would think a sane and rational person (or at least someone seeming that way) would be the best villain. Maybe he works through layers, controlling evil organizations while appearing to be good, or fostering good organizations to gain him the tools he needs to end it all. Maybe he even collects and stores dangerous artifacts and is trusted to do so, perhaps even hiring the PCs, but eventually his goals are revealed. He could even reveal them to the PCs; perhaps the ritual to end it all requires a group of truly willing (no mind control spells) individuals of sufficient power (i.e., level), and he wants the PCs to help him.

On the other hand, I like the idea of a mad scientist who just wants to see if it can be done. After all, it's so hard to really make everything into nothing. What a challenge!
Maybe they realize that, as long as existence is, disappointment and failure exist. What a grand experiment it would be to finally end the potentiality of failing in research!

EDIT
Interesting idea. What if you combined concepts? This would only work (I think) if you planned a long game, but it'd allow your players to defeat the first villain, only to realize their boss was the true villain.

Have a noble, want-to-end-the-suffering guy who poses as having some sort of Good order (knights, kingdom, etc.). He is backing the mad scientist and also secretly supporting a CE insane universe-ender (the CE guy doesn't know who is helping him, but accepts it and thinks he is duping the noble guy.)

The first foe is the CE guy. In the process of defeating him, find clues to some corruption in the noble guy's ranks, leading to finding out about and defeating the mad scientist. But in the process of defeating him, or perhaps in the aftermath after seeing the files/research/whatever, the party realizes that their boss is really in charge.
I admit I'm borrowing a bit from one of the Wild ARMs games:
In Wild Arms 2, you spend about half the game fighting some evil organization. Only then do you realize that your boss is actually funding the organization. His reasons are good -- he knew a end-the-world threat was coming, and he wanted to unify the world to defeat it -- but he was still a manipulative jerk in the end. (His motivations are the opposite of what you are looking for, but the deceptive boss motif could still fit.)


Maybe three layers is too much, but finding out about the mad scientist only to then find out that your boss actually knew about the mad scientist could be cool.

Axiomatic
2013-12-03, 02:47 PM
The best nihilist is a disappointed idealist. Someone who used to believe in all the good things, but now they feel let down and betrayed.

The Grue
2013-12-03, 02:51 PM
Perhaps this villain resents the gods - and if you're running with the D&D pantheon there's a litany of reasons to do that, starting with the Wall of the Faithless - and desires to free the multiverse from their influence at whatever the cost. "Die on your feet than live on your knees" sort of thing.

KotOR2 spoilers
See also Kreia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Traya#Teachings).

Chells
2013-12-03, 02:53 PM
I was afraid I'd catch flack with the term "Nihilist". I know there is a a lot more to Nihilism that just "total and absolute destructiveness, especially toward the world at large and including oneself". It was just the term that jumped into my head.

Nice idea maxriderules. I like the idea of "Oops". That also makes me reevaluate idea D. Having the Bad Guy actually trying to fix the issue gives the players another information source. It does remove the kill the BBEG though. Not sure if I want to give that up.

Mastikator & Jason, I know it seems illogical but I think I found an interesting way to reset the outer planes to nothingness that won't be over the top. It requires a small modification to the cosmology. Once that change is in place destroying it all would be akin to inserting just the right bad line of code into a nuclear reactor.

I split A in two. A-1 is like JeenLeen's suggestion of Arcanum
A-2 is like Jason's suggestion of Azreal from Dogma (Azreal's modivation was my first idea for this villain, but I can't tell if it has been overdone)

Frozen_Feet
2013-12-03, 03:04 PM
I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You are trying to come up with a reason for a nihilist, a person who finds value in nothing, to be proactive. Reality check: people who don't give a damn rarely even get out of their bunk. Often thet kill themselves. As such, I see three paths you could take:

1) The Nihilist is immortal. They couldn't kill themselves even if they wanted to. This 'destroy the universe' thing is nothing but a rampage, an amok run and gesture of contempt towards an existence they find meaningless. This is probably a brief period of rage-fueled activity between long periods of sitting at the bottom of a cave or such.

2) The villain is not nihilist, he is an Ubermensch. After realizing all value is mere fabrication, he has decided to fabricate his own. He rejects all existing systems in order to create one in his own image. Either destroying the universe is a necessary step on the way, or something that will accidentally but inevitably follow from rejecting fundamental things like, say, gods and alignment. This is Planescape, after all belief or lack of it can literally move mountains.

3) The problem is not something the Nihilist is doing, it's what he isn't. Imagine a hero who is tasked with saving the world from some evil force... Who just decides one morning that he doesn't give a damn. The problem is, he can't just be replaced. If he can't be shaken out of his apathy, his inaction will doom the world.

Havokca
2013-12-03, 04:21 PM
You could also borrow from Dr Who (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_bomb); The BBEG doesn't want to destroy all of reality... just all of reality except for wherever he's living.

ReaderAt2046
2013-12-03, 04:29 PM
In the Wheel Of Time books we have Moridin, a really powerful nihilist mage who was trying to help the Dark One unmake spacetime because he [Moridin] was sick of existing and the only way to end the cycle of reincarnation was to destroy reality.

There's also Psimax from Goblins, who, having concluded that the pains of existence outweigh its pleasures, is essentially trying to put the entire universe out of its misery by creating a logical proof that 1 = 0 and writing it into the universe's fundamental laws, thus causing reality to never have been capable of existing in the first place.

Chells
2013-12-03, 04:44 PM
You could also borrow from Dr Who (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_bomb); The BBEG doesn't want to destroy all of reality... just all of reality except for wherever he's living.

I have the method of destruction. That much I'm sure of. It why the guy would want to is where I'm stuck.


There's also Psimax from Goblins, who, having concluded that the pains of existence outweigh its pleasures, is essentially trying to put the entire universe out of its misery by creating a logical proof that 1 = 0 and writing it into the universe's fundamental laws, thus causing reality to never have been capable of existing in the first place.

I though about Psimax. I think I like Azreal better.

Havokca
2013-12-03, 04:56 PM
I have the method of destruction. That much I'm sure of. It why the guy would want to is where I'm stuck.

I wasn't referring to the Reality Bomb per se, but more so to this part of the entry:

capable of wiping the entire universe and all of creation, except for those within or near the Crucible. Which would make [those in the crucible] the most powerful creations.

ie. Motivation? Build-your-own-Eden.

No gods. No Outsiders. Nothing, except for whatever he decides to bring into his own little Utopia, where he will, obviously, be God of all.

alex90lilb
2013-12-03, 05:12 PM
I made a villain who wanted to destroy the universe because of his pain. His name was Viralous Virien. He was an extremely powerful wizard who committed a ****load of atrocities to prevent his wife from dying (including killing the god of life and death). he was successful, but when his wife realized what he'd done she killed herself.

He therefore decided all life was simply cruel and painful. Life was like candy given to a baby only to be snatched away. In some way, he thought he was saving generations from pain and suffering by destroying creation. My players colloquially referred to his plan as a 'Universe Abortion'

They killed him by finding the spirit of his wife, and summoning her to his side. It distracted him long enough for them to stop his plan (which was to infinitely expand the dead god he killed with positive energy). He was then sucked into the dead god as a result.

It was a sweet campaign.

Kid Jake
2013-12-03, 05:34 PM
You could also play him as a deranged fatalist, convinced that he's going to end everything to the point that he just commits himself. He doesn't have to explain his motivations because they won't change anything as far as he's concerned.

His mantra is: "Everything ends eventually...and I'm the one that ends it. Don't ask me why, it doesn't matter why. It's already been decided and I can't stop it."

Maybe he's been tricked by some eighth dimensional horror with alien motivations, maybe the gods actually want to hit the reset button and the PCs are directly standing against prophecy or maybe he just has the misfortune of being a schizophrenic in a world where voices in your head are, nine times out of ten, a sign that Fine demons have crawled in your ear. Leave it ambiguous and just accept that HE believes it has to happen.

The Oni
2013-12-03, 05:54 PM
I made a villain who wanted to destroy the universe because of his pain. His name was Viralous Virien. He was an extremely powerful wizard who committed a ****load of atrocities to prevent his wife from dying (including killing the god of life and death). he was successful, but when his wife realized what he'd done she killed herself.

He therefore decided all life was simply cruel and painful. Life was like candy given to a baby only to be snatched away. In some way, he thought he was saving generations from pain and suffering by destroying creation. My players colloquially referred to his plan as a 'Universe Abortion'

They killed him by finding the spirit of his wife, and summoning her to his side. It distracted him long enough for them to stop his plan (which was to infinitely expand the dead god he killed with positive energy). He was then sucked into the dead god as a result.

It was a sweet campaign.

Sounds like Maester Seymour sans mommy issues.

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070719063229/finalfantasy/images/thumb/0/0f/Seymour_Guado_artwork.jpg/200px-Seymour_Guado_artwork.jpg

Spoilers, but it's a twelve-year old game.

Here's an idea: there are two universes, and more or less they're leeching off the same power source, a source which was only made to sustain one. This causes entropy in both universes. By destroying this universe, the second universe will exist eternally, without decay or rust. So the question is: real, harsh life for all, or perfection for half? A compelling question.

Vamphyr
2013-12-03, 07:17 PM
One of the villians I've been wanting to use in a Hero 5e game might interest you.

Basically his kid gets killed by something horrible and he realizes the horror and sorrow this world brings and never wants it to happen to another person ever. So he sets out to eradicate every living thing on earth.

Any doomsday device/plot will work for an end goal, but the main focus is his henchmen. He gathers together some of the most powerful and terrible people he could possibly find. Basically 7 champions who each represent an aspect of the seven deadly sins. After the players beat their way through these guys and see all the horrible things they've done, they reach the BBEG, who asks them to join him in his plan.

He laid before them the horrors of humanity and hopes they will see that extinction is better than what is currently happening. That any true hero would make sure that no one could ever do those things ever again.

If you can roleplay a good enough argument the party may agree to end everything, or try and kill him, OR, best yet, be split and fight each other.

Chells
2013-12-04, 08:32 AM
Very cool idea Vamphyr but it doesn't work with Planescape very well. There are already an infinite number of endlessly sized realms of horrific fiends. A few more are not going to sway the players. Thanks though.

After mulling over suggestions I have brought it down to two favorites so far. They are edited onto the original post. Thanks everyone. This is really helpful.

Kid Jake
2013-12-04, 06:56 PM
Not a resident of Carceri, but the Arch Devil Levistus probably has about as much to hate about life as anyone. Only so many millennia a guy can be cooped up before he goes a little stir crazy and just decides to watch the multi-verse burn.

Chells
2013-12-04, 10:02 PM
Not a resident of Carceri, but the Arch Devil Levistus probably has about as much to hate about life as anyone. Only so many millennia a guy can be cooped up before he goes a little stir crazy and just decides to watch the multi-verse burn.

I thought of this guy but he is already a central figure in another campaign the group is playing. He would have been close to perfect.

Mastikator
2013-12-05, 06:53 AM
Very cool idea Vamphyr but it doesn't work with Planescape very well. There are already an infinite number of endlessly sized realms of horrific fiends. A few more are not going to sway the players. Thanks though.

After mulling over suggestions I have brought it down to two favorites so far. They are edited onto the original post. Thanks everyone. This is really helpful.

How about just permanently isolating all the planes form each other, make the barrier between them that no magic can ever break through, no more gate, no more plane shifting, no more resurrections or summonings, not even the souls of the dead leave the prime material plane, they become ghosts and spectres and the prime material plane becomes inhospitable to life.

Like building a dam in the cosmological ecosystem that doesn't even permit movement between the ethereal and physical dimension, no dimensional movement at all. It would over (short) time end all life on all the planes.

Driderman
2013-12-05, 10:12 AM
How about ending the Blood War as motivation?
Obviously, the villain is nuts, but the logic could be something along the lines that destroying the multiverse would prevent any future petitioners from being sent to the Lower Planes and/or being beholden to Good or Neutral deities.

Guancyto
2013-12-05, 02:54 PM
Yeah, destroying everything (yourself and your stuff included) is rarely much fun.

It's so much better to remake everything in a way that is more pleasing to you. Don't we all want to forge a world that conforms more closely to our image of how it ought to be (at least, before we open up another browser tab, the one with silly cat videos)?

Consider, a person who arrived at no satisfying answer to the whole 'why do bad things happen to good people' question and decided to make one. A person who wants to etch into the universe some laser-guided karma and what goes around tangibly comes around in your lifetime. Alter the universe such that people actually do deserve what they get. (None of this 'memory-wiped petitioner that's barely even you' nonsense)

Thing is, this is something way beyond even the highest gods, it's like suddenly superimposing another dimension on top of what already exists. Not even the best savants have any idea what the villain's craft project would actually do, but there's a good chance it will all blow up in his face. And even if he succeeds, the world won't look anything like it does.

One could come across contained areas ('reality bubbles,' if you will) where he's started to test his theories. At first these are incredibly weird; places where there's no gravity, no magic, no separation between points, no ability to communicate ideas. Then as they find more, the bubbles can get more refined. The butcher who just cheated his customers can be a demon while the kindly seamstress is now a deva, and where they would normally quarrel now it's an earthquakes and doomsday fight. But the bad guy keeps getting closer and closer to what he's after.

And the players get to decide for themselves, if the villain succeeds in destroying the world as they know it, would this be a bad thing?