Making a really crappy character.

[Gamereaper]

I'm planning on making a really crappy character purposely.

The only thing he will be good at is ridiculous amount of feats and maybe his HP too.
He'll be mostly utility too.

I will start with Warlock 1/ Rogue 1/ Wizard 1/ Cleric 1/ then the rest in Fighter.


Is there a limit to how many flaws I can take?

Any really terrible flaws I can grab?

How do traits work?

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, feat rogue is a good option, as is psi war.

Fighter 2 / Feat Rogue 2 / Psi War 2 / Monk 2 would get 8 bonus feats over 8 levels. Add in Ranger 3 for track, endurance, and two weapon fighting, and you have 11 levels that all grant a feat at each level. Be human and take vow of poverty, for a ton more useless feats.

I am going to go out on a limb and say not a horrid idea, if decidedly under powered. You would be far better off than the above build.

You can take up to two flaws, determined by the DM.

[Gamereaper]

How good does the character play mechanically?

In your opinion, what are the most devastating feats to take?

[Novawurmson]

Dodge+Mobility+Spring attack is a great start for worthless feats. All of the +2/+2 skill feats are awful.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency for worthless weapons.

Run!

[Legendxp]

Toughness, definitely toughness. Take it like 5 times and you'll be sitting pretty. What's that, you want to kill me? Good luck I got like FIFTEEN extra hitpoints.

[Callin]

Get a Con of 20 and take Toughness or a feat that counts as Toughness. Then take Roll With It (Savage Species 39) for DR 2/-. Take it as many times as you want.

[Emperor Tippy]

Fighter 2 / Feat Rogue 2 / Psi War 2 / Monk 2 would get 8 bonus feats over 8 levels.
9 Actually. Monk 2 gets 3 feats. It's actually more than that thanks to the various armor and shield bonus feats.

Vow of Poverty Elf with two flaws Fighter 2/ Feat Rogue 2/ Psi War 2/ Monk 2 has a net of 18 bonus feats over eight levels and a total of 21 feats after Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty over 8 levels.

[Gamereaper]

Toughness, definitely toughness. Take it like 5 times and you'll be sitting pretty. What's that, you want to kill me? Good luck I got like FIFTEEN extra hitpoints.

That doesn't sound like much.

I'm going for utility and HP, 5 feats for 15 HP isn't much.

I'm planning on just focusing on skills.

[Gamereaper]

9 Actually. Monk 2 gets 3 feats. It's actually more than that thanks to the various armor and shield bonus feats.

Vow of Poverty Elf with two flaws Fighter 2/ Feat Rogue 2/ Psi War 2/ Monk 2 has a net of 18 bonus feats over eight levels and a total of 21 feats after Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty over 8 levels.

Wow, super helpful. Thanks.

Why elf though?

[Radar]

If you go for really useless feats, then there is Endurance, Diehard and Dodge. If you are looking for feats, that give you some additional options, then the Complete Warrior has a boatload of tactical feats to choose from. You can also expand the number of mundane things to do by picking up skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.

[Gamereaper]

Get a Con of 20 and take Toughness or a feat that counts as Toughness. Then take Roll With It (Savage Species 39) for DR 2/-. Take it as many times as you want.

Sadly, it's 3.0, which I can't use.

Any other DR feats that are Pathfinder or 3.5?

I decided to be a cowardly skill monkey that is comically invincible.

[Snowbluff]

Didn't this happen before? I think the worst we ended up with was the opposite: a character with 0 hp. He was in a coma.

[Xerlith]

Wow, super helpful. Thanks.

Why elf though?

Knowing Tippy, it's Chaos Shuffling the racial proficiency feats.

[nedz]

Vow of Poverty Artificer

Int 9 Wizard

High Int, Wis and Cha Fighter

More seriously
Feat Rogue with high Int
Lots of skill points and feats

[Ruethgar]

Better than elf, half human elf. Get the shufflable elf feats plus you can take elf and human paragons for more. If you are shufflin' then be sure to be a cloistered cleric taking knowledge devotion to shuffle away as well as metal and war domains for a total of 5 feats with a one level dip.

[Big Fau]

Out of curiosity, why would you do this?

Better question: Why would the other players in the party allow your character to tag along when an NPC hireling would be more beneficial to them?

Making your character intentionally bad is a fool's errand, as the character isn't going to survive long enough in an average campaign. Mechanically inefficient != Good roleplaying.

[Renen]

Likely because he plays with people who never been on the playground. (Read: cant optimise).

[Slipperychicken]

You can take the Dead flaw from Dragon Magazine. Yes, it means you start the game dead. Not as a zombie, just dead (although being a necropolitan or being otherwise resurrected can let you abuse that flaw). You don't get much more useless than that.

If you take [Exalted] feats and commit evil acts, thats mean you lose their benefit until you atone. So just do that and never atone. Problem with that is, you can still atone and/or retrain them later.


BoED pg 39, "Exalted Feats"

A character must have the DM’s permission to take an
exalted feat. In many cases, a ritual must be performed; often
this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow, for
example, in the presence of a celestial being. A character who
willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits
from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she
atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1).

Is there any way to irrevocably lose your own feats or skillpoints? I know you could probably sink skillpoints and other resources into an Item Familiar and lose/destroy it.

[Renen]

I think he wants him crappy, but not unplayable.

[Xerlith]

Fighter 20. Sword and board.

[nedz]

Monk 20
_______

[ddude987]

Knowing Tippy, it's Chaos Shuffling the racial proficiency feats.

shuffling elf racial feats for more useless feats?
"Hahaha my genius plan of chaos shuffling for even MORE toughness feats is going as planned."


Monk 20
_______

Pretty sure that's better than Truenamer up until he hits level 20

[Novawurmson]

Fighter 20. Sword and board.

Too mainstream. Warrior 20 is where it's at.

[Callin]

If you are talking about the Generic Warrior. Those are actually better than Fighter 20 lolol

[nedz]

Too mainstream. Warrior 20 is where it's at.

Expert 20 would get you more skill points.

[Big Fau]

Pretty sure that's better than Truenamer up until he hits level 20

Monk 10/Truenamer 10.

[Snowbluff]

Monk 10/Truenamer 10.

There's a PrC for that. A PrC for my least favorite class and my least justifiable class. It's... I don't know.

[Fax Celestis]

My suggestion: pour everything into leadership. Feats, items, everything. Make your cohort into a tiny, leadership-buffed, deity.

Pretend your cohort is your PC.

[Big Fau]

There's a PrC for that. A PrC for my least favorite class and my least justifiable class. It's... I don't know.

Hence why I didn't include it: That would be more optimal than Monk 10/Truenamer 10.

[Snowbluff]

Hm... okay.


Pretend your cohort is your PC.

Play a Wisdom-less/low wis Druid and get a Celestial Fleshraker. PLay that instead.

I had 2. First was Lassie, who died. The second was Friar Tuck, who was luckier.

[Adverb]

Vow of Poverty Artificer

I just made a noise I never expected to make on these forums. Good job, nedz.

Gamereaper, I don't know where you're going with this or how your campaign will play out, but it sounds hilarious and awesome and I hope you share it with us.

[Icewraith]

Make your own Item Familiar, dump every resource you possibly can into it, then destroy it. That takes care of a good chunk of your skill points.

Put the rest in Use Rope and Decipher Script.

Edit: If you're making a higher level character, find the most worthless grafts you possibly can so you can spend HP and WBL on them. Consider being a hellfire warlock just so you can KO yourself by using your class abilities without draining yourself to zero con.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, since Truenamer was already mentioned, don't forget the Focused Lexicon feat. Increase the DC you need to beat to Truename for a given creature type with a feat. It can be taken multiple times, but sadly, it won't stack for the same type of creature.

[Baroknik]

For a fun actually playable but useless character make one of my favorites: Lorick Nefson, the Sage of Sagas Yet Unsung.

Venerable Human bard. Max every knowledge skill and perform (lecture). If you have leftover skill points put them in Craft (Thesis). Don't take knowledge devotion (unless you want to add to the party more than just inspiring courage by lecturing at them).
Spend your actions to IC (without optimizing it, unless you want Words of Creation to be in-theme) and get two magic items: a small quarterstaff that can cast light on itself on-use (your pointer for lectures) and a rod of wonder (your current thesis work and ONLY form you will ever attack with).
Your motivation: to learn everything that is not learned and teach the world everything in excruciating detail.

When I played this character we ruled that for every point above 15 on my knowledge check I could lecture for 5 minutes off-the-cuff.... Needless to say it was a DM fiatted form of sleep vs NPCs.

Oh, and your teammates will LOVE the Rod of Wonder attack routine when they are in melee... I still am never allowed to purchase one with a character ever again...

[Slipperychicken]

Oh, and your teammates will LOVE the Rod of Wonder attack routine when they are in melee... I still am never allowed to purchase one with a character ever again...

My brother once made a character who used a Rod of Wonder as his main shtick. He accidentally fireballed a busy street and covered everyone with butterflies in combat. If you need to troll a game, that item is a pretty solid bet.

[nedz]

Play a Half-Fey Card Sharp — the build won't matter for this, you don't even have to be good at it
Buy a Deck of Many Things
Let everyone else in the party play, Charm them if necessary
Profit, well maybe ?

[Ansem]

Go straight bard.

[(Un)Inspired]

Truenamer 19/ commoner 1

can't let that pesky gate ability get in the way of my ineptitude

[Diovid]

Kobold Paragon 3 / Stoneblessed (Gnome) 3 / Gnome Paragon 3 / Stoneblessed (Dwarf) 3 / Dwarf Paragon 3 / Stoneblessed (Goliath) 3 / something?

[(Un)Inspired]

Wizard 20// Fighter 20. 10 int, 8 Str.

Name: King Cantrip

[Spore]

I don't really get the reasoning behind this thread.


Just roleplay a commoner with a fear of success and money. While the heroes go out to adventure, cook for them. Preferably amidst the battle. You could maybe make a wizard and give him only commodity spells. Make sure his Wisdom in penalized and do not put ranks into Profession (Cook). the food will taste accordingly. Be offended if someone else wants to cook.

Or just don't be a GIANT PRICK and play something normal?

[Oxydeur]

You can also play a Survivor from Savage Species.
You get NO bab, low skill but you will be very hard to kill with spells and traps.

[Nightraiderx]

Had to look up the prestiege class, and I have to say Disciple of the Word
is amusing, you don't even have to have truenamer levels to use it, and it makes me wonder if monk 10/disciple of the word 10 is slightly better than monk 20 on it's own. One of the few classes I've seen that has immediate action even though the DC is rediculous there's always an item familiar. lol

[Harrow]

Fighter 2/ Ranger 3/Dwarf Paragon 2/Dwarven Defender X

You'll need to remember to pump INT and spend your non-bonus feats on skill boosters.

This nets you plenty of (crap) bonus feats, lots of defensive abilities and hitpoints (at the cost of mobility and being able to actually fight), and can be reasonably good at a handful of skills, as long as you buy +int and +skill items instead of +str and magic weapons.

On an unrelated note, can anyone think of a good fluff justification for a VoP Artificer?

[Iryanmadayana]

On an unrelated note, can anyone think of a good fluff justification for a VoP Artificer?

1. Use all your money to craft various low-level wondrous items.
2. Stockpile them over the course of the year.
3. During winter, travel the land to distribute them among those of good heart.

Don't forget to dress in red and enter people's houses through the chimney!

[Slipperychicken]

Out of curiosity, why would you do this?

Better question: Why would the other players in the party allow your character to tag along when an NPC hireling would be more beneficial to them?


Or just don't be a GIANT PRICK and play something normal?

Yeah.. if I was playing with this loser (the character, mind you), I'd likely refuse to let him into the party for lack of useful skills, then feed him to the monsters have him take point and search for traps when he refuses to leave.

[Snowbluff]

Just roleplay a commoner with a fear of success and money. While the heroes go out to adventure, cook for them. Preferably amidst the battle. You could maybe make a wizard and give him only commodity spells. Make sure his Wisdom in penalized and do not put ranks into Profession (Cook). the food will taste accordingly. Be offended if someone else wants to cook.


Guys, can you keep it down? I'm trying to cook. (http://youtu.be/oU_xJx-dQ78?t=11m37s)

[killem2]

If you want truly crappy, just take a level 1 dip, in every caster-like class you can find, no prestige classes.

I'm sure they are at least 20 base caster-like classes out there right?

Druid 1, Warlock 1, Wizard 1, Sorcerer 1, Bard 1, Cleric 1, Wu Jen 1, Shaman 1, Wilder 1, Psion 1, Binder 1, Warmage 1, Totemist 1, True Namer 1.


:P, my thought on it is, you won't advance very far in spell casting at all, the DCs are going to be pitiful, but wow can you amaze townsfolk! :P

[HaikenEdge]

Commoner 1/Aristocrat 19?

At first level, take Chicken Infested, but don't actually ever use it to benefit the party unless they absolutely need it. That way, you can appear useless, but always save the day with your infinite chickens of doom!!!!

[Legendxp]

That doesn't sound like much.

I'm going for utility and HP, 5 feats for 15 HP isn't much.

I'm planning on just focusing on skills.

That was the point:smallbiggrin:, I was making fun of the uselessness of the feat toughness (Normally blue text denotes sarcasm). As for skills, try Able Learner, it makes all skills in class. No more worrying about which skills give one rank and which skills give a half a rank.

[HaikenEdge]

That was the point:smallbiggrin:, I was making fun of the uselessness of the feat toughness (Normally blue text denotes sarcasm). As for skills, try Able Learner, it makes all skills in class. No more worrying about which skills give one rank and which skills give a half a rank.

Just to clarify, Able Learner doesn't actually make all skills class skills; you are still restricted to the cross-class maximum for cross-class skills, but all skills cost only 1 skill point per skill rank.

[Legendxp]

Just to clarify, Able Learner doesn't actually make all skills class skills; you are still restricted to the cross-class maximum for cross-class skills, but all skills cost only 1 skill point per skill rank.

Good catch, I didn't even notice that.

[Baroknik]

Just to clarify, Able Learner doesn't actually make all skills class skills; you are still restricted to the cross-class maximum for cross-class skills, but all skills cost only 1 skill point per skill rank.

Though with a 1-level dip in factotum the cap for all skills is that of class skills -- hence why Able-learner Factotums are handy for any skillmonkey

[Particle_Man]

I'm planning on making a really crappy character purposely.

CW Samurai 20?

Tier 6 classes need a chance to shine and this is your moment, since you wanted to play a really crappy character on purpose!

Other than that, you could try to get enough levels in rogue, cleric, wizard and warlock to get the prestige classes Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Eldrtich Theurge and Eldritch Disciple.

[HaikenEdge]

Though with a 1-level dip in factotum the cap for all skills is that of class skills -- hence why Able-learner Factotums are handy for any skillmonkey

That it is.

[Gamereaper]

Out of curiosity, why would you do this?

Better question: Why would the other players in the party allow your character to tag along when an NPC hireling would be more beneficial to them?

Making your character intentionally bad is a fool's errand, as the character isn't going to survive long enough in an average campaign. Mechanically inefficient != Good roleplaying.

1) For a change of pace. In fact, my character will be quite cowardly and hide at the first sign of danger.

2) I'm going skill monkey and having TONS of feats.

3) I will have survivability if I am a mongrelman, get a 21 in con, take toughness and get the DR feat in Complete Warrior multiple times.

I'll have Vow of Poverty with two flaws Fighter 2/ Feat Rogue 2/ Psi War 2/ Monk 2 with a net of 18 bonus feats over eight levels and a total of 21 feats after Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty over 8 levels. Imagine all that DR.

[Fax Celestis]

Vow of Poverty bonus feats are required to be Exalted feats, so no extra DR there, sorry.

[Gamereaper]

That was the point:smallbiggrin:, I was making fun of the uselessness of the feat toughness (Normally blue text denotes sarcasm). As for skills, try Able Learner, it makes all skills in class. No more worrying about which skills give one rank and which skills give a half a rank.

I'm getting 3 feats at first level. Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, then able learner.

[Gamereaper]

Vow of Poverty bonus feats are required to be Exalted feats, so no extra DR there, sorry.

How many are exhaulted?

[Fax Celestis]

How many are exhaulted?

Any feat with the [Exalted] descriptor (99% of which are in BoED and Champions of Valor).

[Gamereaper]

Too mainstream. Warrior 20 is where it's at.

I don't want to focus on anything. Having a Fighter or Warrior makes me combat oriented, which is the COMPLETE opposite of what I'm going for.

I was thinking about something... If I got an improved familiar, they are not me technically.

Could they just hold onto and use certain magic items like rings of spell storing or something?

[HaikenEdge]

I'm getting 3 feats at first level. Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, then able learner.

Does Mongrelfolk actually qualify for Able Learner? I mean, I get that they have the Human subtype, but they're not actually Human, and the Racial Emulation ability only works for magic items; meanwhile, Able Learner explicitly specifies you have to be Human or Doppelganger to take the feat.

[Radar]

3) I will have survivability if I am a mongrelman, get a 21 in con, take toughness and get the DR feat in Complete Warrior multiple times.
If possible, take Improved Toughness (from Complete Warrior) instead of Toughness (the only reason to take it, is to meet some prerequisites).

As for the skillmonkeying, there are a few skills, which might have interesting uses:
Autohypnosis (among other things, it allows you to perfectly memorise whole pages of text),
Lucid Dreaming (at first it just lets you control your own dreams, then you can jump to some other people's dreams, then shenanigans happen; very interesting RP tool yet easy to abuse, so use with caution),
Forgery (give me some ink and paper and I'll make you a heir to the throne; it is also the only way to discern real documents from forged ones),
Craft: Alchemy (all those smokebombs and flasks of alchemical fire have to come from somewhere).

Also relevant: there are magical locations giving specific feats - you might want to look into it. Unfortunately I only know of Otyugh Hole, which gives Iron Will (a rather crappy feat).

[Gamereaper]

Does Mongrelfolk actually qualify for Able Learner? I mean, I get that they have the Human subtype, but they're not actually Human, and the Racial Emulation ability only works for magic items; meanwhile, Able Learner explicitly specifies you have to be Human or Doppelganger to take the feat.

Then I can Factotum dip.

[HaikenEdge]

Then I can Factotum dip.

Except when you leave the class, cross-class skills for the skills you're currently advancing will once again cost two skill points per rank; the only thing Factotum does is allow you to have those skills at max rank as though they were class skills, without changing the cost for obtaining those skills when you multiclass out.

[Harrow]

Someone correct me if this is wrong, but I think you can buy the Weapon of Legacy feats.

[Fax Celestis]

Does Mongrelfolk actually qualify for Able Learner? I mean, I get that they have the Human subtype, but they're not actually Human, and the Racial Emulation ability only works for magic items; meanwhile, Able Learner explicitly specifies you have to be Human or Doppelganger to take the feat.

...what, exactly, do you think the Human subtype does?

[HaikenEdge]

...what, exactly, do you think the Human subtype does?

Make you a target for the Ranger's Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Human)?

[Gamereaper]

Make you a target for the Ranger's Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Human)?

I'm sure it does more than that, I think it would allow any creature with "human" as a type or subtype to be able to use human only skills.

[Particle_Man]

I think there is a feat that gives you 5 skill points and that you can take multiple times.

[Baroknik]

I think there is a feat that gives you 5 skill points and that you can take multiple times.

Open-Minded, a must-have in E6 campaigns for people who want to pick up new skills.

[gorfnab]

Go straight bard.
Bard 20 (Handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284) Here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936)) can be quite nice actually


an old post of mine on creating a melee-focused bard, but most of the advice still applies to any single classed bard.

Don't PrC. Bards are great single-classed.

The exception of course is the Bardadin, which is worth looking at, but that's a whole other story.

Bard Only:
Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)
Savage Bard variant from UA is much better even if only for trading Reflex saves for Fort saves.
Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because)
Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific)
Take Jack of All Trades (to enable bardic knack across trained-only skills)Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon. Also consider Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) and Doomspeak. If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike.
Spell: Inspirational Boost.
Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor.

Right there, you have a perfect bard. Depending on your DM (and the availability of Flaws), you might consider two crystal echoblades and Two Weapon Fighting. It's a good idea, but the wording of Snowflake Wardance makes some DMs ban it with a second weapon (incorrectly, I believe.)

Somehow, I forgot to mention Melodic Casting...

oh yes...i forgot.

Wasn't able to use DFI on this build (it didn't fit the custom campaign setting), and, sadly, the DM got banned from the forums before we got very far in, but I desperately want to play this bard somewhere (with appropriate adjustments).


Some feats to consider for a crappy build:
Skill Focus: Speak Language
Skill Focus: Control Shape (on a non shape changing character)
Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu (in a campaign with no hippopotami and/or switching to a new patron deity)

[nedz]

Aristocrat 20, just looks down his nose at everyone else — Wizards included: Tradesman you know.

[Skevvix]

Though with a 1-level dip in factotum the cap for all skills is that of class skills -- hence why Able-learner Factotums are handy for any skillmonkey

Unless you're going Chameleon there is no reason to take Able Learner as a Factotum, they already have all skills as class skills.

[Spore]

1) For a change of pace. In fact, my character will be quite cowardly and hide at the first sign of danger.

2) I'm going skill monkey and having TONS of feats.

3) I will have survivability if I am a mongrelman, get a 21 in con, take toughness and get the DR feat in Complete Warrior multiple times.

I'll have Vow of Poverty with two flaws Fighter 2/ Feat Rogue 2/ Psi War 2/ Monk 2 with a net of 18 bonus feats over eight levels and a total of 21 feats after Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty over 8 levels. Imagine all that DR.

If you say skill monkey then you are FAR from being useful. You just rolled up a character not useful in battle. You should be more clear about that in the entry post. Please edit this in.

[Gamereaper]

I don't really get the reasoning behind this thread.


Just roleplay a commoner with a fear of success and money. While the heroes go out to adventure, cook for them. Preferably amidst the battle. You could maybe make a wizard and give him only commodity spells. Make sure his Wisdom in penalized and do not put ranks into Profession (Cook). the food will taste accordingly. Be offended if someone else wants to cook.

Or just don't be a GIANT PRICK and play something normal?

I said crappy, not completely useless.

[HaikenEdge]

Unless you're going Chameleon there is no reason to take Able Learner as a Factotum, they already have all skills as class skills.

Once you're out of Factotum, skills that aren't class skills for the class you're currently in will once again cost two skill points per skill rank. That's why you take Able Learner if you're going for a one level Factotum dip: so your skill points stretch further.

[killem2]

Once you're out of Factotum, skills that aren't class skills for the class you're currently in will once again cost two skill points per skill rank. That's why you take Able Learner if you're going for a one level Factotum dip: so your skill points stretch further.

Under the PHB, under multiclassing, it does state that any skill you have with any of the classes you multiclass in is considered a class skill.

This would result in being able to spend max ranks in it.

[HaikenEdge]

Under the PHB, under multiclassing, it does state that any skill you have with any of the classes you multiclass in is considered a class skill.

This would result in being able to spend max ranks in it.

You can certainly get max ranks for it, but skill point cost, to my understanding, is still two skill points per rank.

[nedz]

You can certainly get max ranks for it, but skill point cost, to my understanding, is still two skill points per rank.

Hence Able Learner, which reduces this to 1:1

[HaikenEdge]

Hence Able Learner, which reduces this to 1:1

Most certainly, except my original response was to somebody who said you don't need Able Learner off a Factotum Dip if you're not going Chameleon.

[killem2]

The multiclassing section, comes right out and says you get to treat it as a class skill, and class skills are what you are allowed to put 1:1 points into.

I don't really care that much, if you want to do it that way, I'm not gonna stop ya, I've just never heard of it being done that way. :smallconfused:

It wouldn't be the first time RAW isn't clear enough to say what it meant. It makes more sense though, if you took the class to get the skill, it's a class skill permanently. Just because you are a Fighter 1, Wizard 19, doesn't mean you stopped ever being a fighter, you learned those skills, and are allowed to only put 1:1 ratios in class skills.

[Karnith]

The multiclassing section, comes right out and says you get to treat it as a class skill, and class skills are what you are allowed to put 1:1 points into.
Can I ask where you're looking? In the section on multiclassing in the PHB, it says that any skill that has ever been a class skill has maximum skill ranks equal to your character level +3; it doesn't mention spending skill points. Per the Player's Handbook:

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, then character level determines a skill's maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.
This is quite different than saying that any skills that have been class skills remain/will always be class skills. If they were, it'd make, say, a Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon)'s Adaptive Learning pretty useless. Which skills are class skills and which are cross-class skills depend on what class you are taking a level in; the rules on leveling up are fairly specific on this point. Per the Player's Handbook, p. 58:

Remember that you buy skills based on the class that you have advanced in, so only those skills given as class skills for that class can be purchased as class skills for this level, regardless of what other classes you may have levels in.

[nedz]

The multiclassing section, comes right out and says you get to treat it as a class skill, and class skills are what you are allowed to put 1:1 points into.

I don't really care that much, if you want to do it that way, I'm not gonna stop ya, I've just never heard of it being done that way. :smallconfused:

It wouldn't be the first time RAW isn't clear enough to say what it meant. It makes more sense though, if you took the class to get the skill, it's a class skill permanently. Just because you are a Fighter 1, Wizard 19, doesn't mean you stopped ever being a fighter, you learned those skills, and are allowed to only put 1:1 ratios in class skills.

Then what would be the point of Able Learner, also:

Able Learner
...
Normal
Cross-class skills cost 2 skill points per rank.

[killem2]

Then what would be the point of Able Learner, also:

But they aren't cross class skills anymore, if you have at least 1 level in the class that offer them.

The point of able learner would allow a Barbarian, to put points in Diplomacy. A cross class skill.

[Harrow]

But they aren't cross class skills anymore, if you have at least 1 level in the class that offer them.

The point of able learner would allow a Barbarian, to put points in Diplomacy. A cross class skill.

They are still cross-class skills, they are just treated as in-class for determining the maximum ranks you can have in them.

[Fax Celestis]

But they aren't cross class skills anymore, if you have at least 1 level in the class that offer them.

The point of able learner would allow a Barbarian, to put points in Diplomacy. A cross class skill.

Nope. If you level as barbarian, regardless of whether or not you've had it as a class skill before, ranks in Diplomacy cost 2 points per rank.

The ranks cap only cares if you've ever had it as a class skill. But actually purchasing requires it to be a class skill when purchasing.

[Big Fau]

1) For a change of pace. In fact, my character will be quite cowardly and hide at the first sign of danger.

2) I'm going skill monkey and having TONS of feats.

3) I will have survivability if I am a mongrelman, get a 21 in con, take toughness and get the DR feat in Complete Warrior multiple times.

I'll have Vow of Poverty with two flaws Fighter 2/ Feat Rogue 2/ Psi War 2/ Monk 2 with a net of 18 bonus feats over eight levels and a total of 21 feats after Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty over 8 levels. Imagine all that DR.

That still doesn't change the fact that your party won't want you playing that character. In all technicality, the DM can just rule that you don't gain XP from encounters because you don't participate in them. Bypassing an encounter via stealth does not mean hiding in a corner waiting for the rest of the party to kill it.

What you are doing is trolling your friends and wasting your DM's time.

[Xerlith]

I am seconding the notion of being rather sceptical towards your approach. Optimizing to be of little use for your team will end up in making everyone around you rather sour.
I think the perfect balance point for you would be taking an NPC caster class: Adept or (better) Magewright. Be the party crafter, UMDer and utility-tool. You may want to multiclass, but it's not really needed. And you will be at least _a bit_ useful. Especially if you dip Factotum, one or three levels.

[Particle_Man]

If you just want to go skill monkey and have a ton of feats, maybe ask the DM to have a rogue but switch out sneak attack for fighter bonus feats, as per the optional rule in Unearthed Arcana.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue

You could max out the UMD skill for the "semi magical" stuff you seem to want. You could be a great "locks and traps" guy and with the fighter bonus feats have that "ton of feats" you want (particularly since at level 10 rogues get a bonus feat too, instead of a special ability). If you are human that would be, what, 20 feats by level 20?

You wouldn't even need to multi-class. :smallsmile:

[HaikenEdge]

If you just want to go skill monkey and have a ton of feats, maybe ask the DM to have a rogue but switch out sneak attack for fighter bonus feats, as per the optional rule in Unearthed Arcana.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue

You could max out the UMD skill for the "semi magical" stuff you seem to want. You could be a great "locks and traps" guy and with the fighter bonus feats have that "ton of feats" you want (particularly since at level 10 rogues get a bonus feat too, instead of a special ability). If you are human that would be, what, 20 feats by level 20?

You wouldn't even need to multi-class. :smallsmile:

Or just ask the GM to let you play a Generic Expert, also from Unearthed Arcana. 6 skill points per level, feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th and every 4th level thereafter, access to "bonus feats" that basically replicate class features...

[Schizek]

Making char with only DR will be bad because any spell will or ref save and you are dead. Make someone that have extreme defense against most stuff and force all enemies into attacking you. You will be useful and fun to play. use something with Charisma synergy.


Start Lessser Aasimar or Star Elf dump Con and Wis because of template
Cha 18+2 Race+2lvl+2 Vow+ 2 Risen=+8

Rogue Feat 2/Paladin ACF Cha to AC 2 /Hexblade 2/Risen Martyr X

1x Cha to Saves against spells
2x Cha to AC+1 Deflection
1x Cha to Will Saves

AC 10+6(vow)+16 Cha+1 Def+8 Vow of Peace=41 maybe more


Feats: Leadership feats, Force of Personality,
Exelated:Nymph Kiss, ,Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace +8 AC,

Use you high Diplomacy to persuade enemies to attack you :P