My Paladin has a black dragon issue. What now? (Pathfinder)

[Zaeron]

(THIS IS THE KINGMAKER PATHFINDER ADVENTURE. If you don't want spoilers, please don't read. If you have gotten further than I have, please don't use knowledge of the material to provide me with advice. This thread is for roleplaying/general rules questions only, I would REALLY prefer not to have the adventure path spoiled for me. I accidentally read about the fort before I got to it and that was awful.)

Okay, so. I've managed to get myself into a bit of a pickle.

My 9th level Paladin of Sarenrae (goddess of fire/redemption/killing bad things) has just recovered a clutch of black dragon eggs from people who have various nefarious intentions.

I also have a LOT of ranks in handle animal and diplomacy and I've always made a point of attempting to redeem enemies and offer them a second chance - even if it has occasionally gotten me stabbed in the back. Hell, I carry potions of speak with animal so that I can negotiate with wild animals who attack us and convince them to go do other things.

The party split hard when we found the eggs, and I was the swing vote. Half the group thought we needed to smash the eggs, and the other half was like well we can't sell them but we can't do anything with them either.

So I ask my DM if Black Dragons are ALWAYS evil, or USUALLY evil. He says usually.

Sooooo I end up essentially being the swing vote and arguing that we have an obligation to raise them ourselves and attempt to teach them how to be good, blah blah blah, all creatures deserve a chance to choose their own path etc etc etc.

Party has a tendency to 'solve problems' when I 'go for a walk', generally without asking me, so I went ahead and emphasized that if anything happened to the eggs it would be a Big Deal.

But knowing our DM, this is a major plot point and I have no idea what to do now. Did I **** up? Is there anything I can do to cover my ass? How exactly does one even raise dragons? I don't play paladins often. Is my reasoning sound in the first place, or would a good paladin have been for killing them?

[Azreal]

But knowing our DM, this is a major plot point and I have no idea what to do now. Did I **** up? Is there anything I can do to cover my ass? How exactly does one even raise dragons? I don't play paladins often. Is my reasoning sound in the first place, or would a good paladin have been for killing them?

Well you should know that as soon as they hatch they are at the relative knowledge of an adult human if not smarter. They speak draconic/common not any kind of animal sound (this of course is assuming they are standard pathfinder dragons)

There's a book in 3.5 I think it's either Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon that details what needs to go into raising a dragon as well. Personally your character imo would try to redeem their race by raising these guys up to be good dragons (a topic that's totally covered in Pathfinder dragon books)

[awa]

it varies on the setting and the dm but not killing them is entirely valid choice. handle animal wont do anything but diplomacy will.

in standard d&d black dragons are always chaotic evil (note always in d&d does not actually mean always) but even if they stay evil there are degrees of evil depending on on your paladin you might be willing to settle for the dragons are greedy jerks but don't go around eating people.

edit also push comes to shove there not that dangerous in the grand scheme of things you will basically always be stronger (assuming the game does not have decade long time skips) so if it turns out to have been a mistake you can fix it latter

[Delusion]

Do you know any good dragon's who might want to adopt nest? Dragon might not more about raising little wyrmlings than anyone else I'd imagine.

And I definately think the good option was not killing the dragons. Paladin's shouldn't kill innocents just because of what "might happen".

[Kaveman26]

Did you kill the mother in conjunction with acquiring these eggs. If not your first priority is to locate said mother. Until you have confirmation she herself is.not evil you must first return tobirth mother.

[Zaeron]

Rumors of good dragons in the area have so far proven unsubstantiated and in either case, the enemies we've been fighting have been exterminating good aligned wild creatures with prejudice - there are barely any good aligned or even neutral fae left and as far as we know every Unicorn within a hundred miles of our city is dead, for example.

As far as finding the mother, we killed slavers to recover these eggs. No idea whatsoever about where the mom might be or if she's even near here.

[BWR]

If you want a smoothly running adventure with a minimum of player irritation, you made the wrong choice.

If you want a great opportunity for good roleplaying and personalizing the cmapaign, you definitely made the right choice.

Paladins are holy warriors. In D&D, killing is not in itself evil. They are not necessarily anything else than the sword of righteousness. It is not in their job description that they have to try to redeem every evil being or raise an evil creature to be good. Since they are LG, they certainly tend more to niceness, but it isn't in their job description to do that sort of thing.
You can always try to find a good aligned church or a trustworthy noble to foist the dragon onto.

Failing that, you decided to save the egg and it is now your responsibility. You will just have to live with the problems of raising a child if you cannot find someone better to do it. Diplomacy won't work because it doesn't have the requisite sense of self or knowledge to have it function, and Handle Animal won't unless you go in for bad jokes about kids being beasts.
The best thing you can do is study dragon lore and hire a nanny to help you.

[Andrewmoreton]

You are a Paladin of Saranae so besides the other steps suggested
1)Pray to Saranae she may give you guidance
2) Write to a more senior Cleric , see if they can help it may be that a larger temple can take the burden of raising the eggs of your hands as they will have the resource to do so in the longer term, they may also be able to get advice from a friendly Dragon

[awa]

why wont diplomacy work BWR?
It has a near human int.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since your DM (or paizo) ruled that black dragons are usually evil, instead of always evil, smashing the eggs would've amounted to slaughtering innocents. However, since dragons are fully capable of defending themselves and hunting from a few minutes after they hatch, simply abandoning the eggs where they are would be perfectly fine and is probably the way to go.

If you just must try redemption, come back for them later or send word to the church so they can send someone to deal with the situation.

[Big Fau]

Since your DM (or paizo) ruled that black dragons are usually evil, instead of always evil, smashing the eggs would've amounted to slaughtering innocents. However, since dragons are fully capable of defending themselves and hunting from a few minutes after they hatch, simply abandoning the eggs where they are would be perfectly fine and is probably the way to go.

According to the Draconomicon (3.5, so PF may be different), leaving the eggs unattended with no way to replicate the way a Black Dragon incubates them (soaking them in briny water and giving them an acid bath a couple of times each day) would have amounted to slaughtering innocents too. Without that treatment the eggshell is too tough for the dragon to crack, and they'd end up suffocating.

Fun, huh?

[Kelb_Panthera]

According to the Draconomicon (3.5, so PF may be different), leaving the eggs unattended with no way to replicate the way a Black Dragon incubates them (soaking them in briny water and giving them an acid bath a couple of times each day) would have amounted to slaughtering innocents too. Without that treatment the eggshell is too tough for the dragon to crack, and they'd end up suffocating.

Fun, huh?

I doubt that's in force. If it is then they're likely already dead. The Op didn't say anything about the slavers keeping them in any sort of briny tank.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BWR
Paladins are holy warriors.... It is not in their job description that they have to try to redeem every evil being or raise an evil creature to be good.

It does, however, seem to be in the character's job description, since his patron has redemption as an aspect of her teachings.


Originally Posted by Zaeron
Is my reasoning sound in the first place, or would a good paladin have been for killing them?

Your reasoning looks fine to me, and sounds like you did some solid roleplaying along your character's alignment. He made his call and now he has to handle the responsibilities, including a ton of foraging. Young hobbits aren't the only ones that take a lot of provender.

As for ripple effects, within the party and at the table, it really depends on the other people in your group. From your description it sounds as if there are several party members you don't really trust, so I'd say you have some long-term diplomacy to work at--or work out some sort of egg-guarding arrangement with a sympathetic party member, if any.


Originally Posted by BWR
You can always try to find a good aligned church or a trustworthy noble to foist the dragon onto.

This should probably be a long-term goal, and as another option I would suggest trying to find a good-ish druid. It sounds as if you're involved in something which druids would be sympathetic to, which might help tip the balance when you're suggesting to a druid that he take over the parenting of several young, active and very hungry dragonets.

:smallbiggrin:

[ngilop]

Sounds liks Cliche paladin stuff of awesome!

killing babies/unborn /unhatched creatures is most certainly an evil act..

Saying that you want to raise them good and redeem them is bascially what a paladin should be doing and i cannot see any 'good' aligned character actually wanting to slaughter

You reasoning is beyond sound with a solid foundation, no good being would want to kill those completely innocent.

your party though, well the ones who voted for killing the innocents, are eviland you should probably watch your back ffrom now on.

[Blackhawk748]

Draconomicon is definitely the book you want to look through, and i agree that seeing if the church will take them is the best way to go. Also im pretty sure the reason most Chromatic Dragons are evil is because they were raised by Evil parents, at least thats probably a good chunk of the reason, now im sure that when they hatch the Wyrmlings will probably cause quite a bit of mischief but otherwise they shouldnt be so bad, just treat them like human children, except always were full plate

[Brookshw]

Can I suggest you raise them in an all common speaking household surrounded by dwarf, elf, etc, so that they never learn draconic?

Edit: and for the record there have been good black dragons (or any chromatic). Whether they may have started out as gold hatchlings that a slaad lord turned into chromatic dragons is another matter.

[Renegade Paladin]

I ordered Paizo's Dragons Revisited when it was on sale last week, so when it gets here I'll see if it has anything to say on the subject of raising dragons for you. :smallsmile:

[Angelalex242]

Well...I would definitely have some divinations and commune spells cast before trying to raise black dragons. And the first commune question to ask is "Is this even possible?" and the second is, "Do you want me to do this personally?"

And you might want to invest in some dragon shaped helms of opposite alignment. Could save you no end of grief.

If your Paladin is human, note the dragons will LOOOOONG outlive you, so you might wanna pass them off to an elf who'll actually be there for a few centuries.

[awa]

Draconomicon is definitely the book you want to look through, and i agree that seeing if the church will take them is the best way to go. Also im pretty sure the reason most Chromatic Dragons are evil is because they were raised by Evil parents, at least thats probably a good chunk of the reason, now im sure that when they hatch the Wyrmlings will probably cause quite a bit of mischief but otherwise they shouldnt be so bad, just treat them like human children, except always were full plate

i disagree with this don't treat them like human children they have a mental capacity vastly greater then most children the same age and even if they didn't dragons are not humans even good dragons have drives and goals alien to humans. The hoard is an excellent example all the core dragon collect wealth for the primary purpose of sticking it in a giant pile.

personally i think the best way to raise them would be aim for neutral and try and work with there instincts focus on how working together is the most efficient way of getting what you want (shiny things) and that pointless cruelty or treachery is counter productive and much less effective then just working together particularly in the long run.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Do you know any good dragon's who might want to adopt nest? Dragon might not more about raising little wyrmlings than anyone else I'd imagine.

And I definately think the good option was not killing the dragons. Paladin's shouldn't kill innocents just because of what "might happen".

QFT.

First off, +1 for the dragons being Black.. My favorite of the Chromatic dragons.

Secondly, try to 'foist' them off onto a nearby Good church until the end of the Adventure path, with the strict understanding that they're not to smash the eggs, and yes, you will be back for them (maybe even give them a bit of... golden incentive, ifyouknowwhatimean).

If you have a spare Bag of Holding or the like, commandeer it and toss the eggs in it (their oxygen supply is in the egg, so no worries there).

Failing that, you might be better off (IC) retiring the character (to raise them away from the party of innocent-killers) rather than risk your DM screwing with you and possibly making you Fall for either failing to protect them or some other such nonsense.

[Drachasor]

Sounds liks Cliche paladin stuff of awesome!

killing babies/unborn /unhatched creatures is most certainly an evil act..

Saying that you want to raise them good and redeem them is bascially what a paladin should be doing and i cannot see any 'good' aligned character actually wanting to slaughter

You reasoning is beyond sound with a solid foundation, no good being would want to kill those completely innocent.

your party though, well the ones who voted for killing the innocents, are eviland you should probably watch your back ffrom now on.

Pathfinder has a number of sections that seem to say good characters killing babies can be perfectly fine.

Torag is a LG deity in Pathfinder. Paladins of him have the following code "Against my people's enemy I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them and scatter theirs families. Yet, even in the struggles against our enemies, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag."

Yeah. Sounds more Neutral or Evil to me too.

[Angelalex242]

I still say only a complete idiot would even attempt this without divinations and commune spells. It's going to take the wisdom of the gods and angels to raise black dragons to not be homicidal maniacs.

Though I wonder if the eggs detect as evil when the Paladin scans them. That's a less spell intensive way of letting you know what your god thinks of the idea.

Also, the Emissary of Barachiel prestige class (I know this is Pathfinder, not 3.5, but you'll need that prestige class) is pretty much a must to make this work.

[Drachasor]

Party has a tendency to 'solve problems' when I 'go for a walk', generally without asking me, so I went ahead and emphasized that if anything happened to the eggs it would be a Big Deal.

But knowing our DM, this is a major plot point and I have no idea what to do now. Did I **** up? Is there anything I can do to cover my ass? How exactly does one even raise dragons? I don't play paladins often. Is my reasoning sound in the first place, or would a good paladin have been for killing them?

People who don't want to raise dragons are lame.

Dragons are highly intelligent. Generally treat them like people. Also show them good ways to express their draconic urges. Teach them the difference between people and cattle. Let them do some hunting in approved areas. Make sure they know about any laws and how to respect them (but your character foots any fees of course until they can make their own way). Think up various things that would be fun for Black Dragons to do. Reward good behavior and teach them through actions about caring for others.

I don't think you are out of line. My group can also be completely psychotic about "evil" creatures. In a RotRL games one of them bashed in the head of a goblin druid prisoner who had done no wrong that we knew of, while said goblin was providing us intel. Naturally its offer to help us out was ignored, and our agreement to accept its surrender was a lie. My group and double standards...*sigh*

[Sith_Happens]

Dragons are highly intelligent. Generally treat them like people. Also show them good ways to express their draconic urges. Teach them the difference between people and cattle. Let them do some hunting in approved areas. Make sure they know about any laws and how to respect them (but your character foots any fees of course until they can make their own way). Think up various things that would be fun for Black Dragons to do. Reward good behavior and teach them through actions about caring for others.

Also, make sure they notice that when you help people with their Bad Guy problems, usually no one minds if you keep the Bad Guys' shinies afterwards.

[Tvtyrant]

Perhaps you should inform your DM that you really want the "raising dragons" plot and if they wouldn't mind allowing you to do it instead of what they had planned? I talk to my players OoC about upcoming plots that involve them to make sure everything is within acceptable parameters for them.

[ngilop]

Pathfinder has a number of sections that seem to say good characters killing babies can be perfectly fine.

Torag is a LG deity in Pathfinder. Paladins of him have the following code "Against my people's enemy I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them and scatter theirs families. Yet, even in the struggles against our enemies, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag."

Yeah. Sounds more Neutral or Evil to me too.

I bolded the important part for emphasis. Torag is a good diety of protection and creation. And is very adamant in his opposition of agressive and destructive deities. Im am pretty sure killing innocent is the opposite of bringing honor to Torag. Note it says scatter their family.. not butcher every last one of them even if they are indefensible children and babies.

[Spore]

You are an adventurer. Find a monastery of your belief to drop them off and tell them to nurture those dragons. You will regularly check on the findings. Tell them that you do not want them to be killed. Adventure away. As much as it hurts to pass up that chance but unless your DM makes a move to incorporate the dragons into the story somehow (and heck, they're just very large and bloody omelettes at the moment) this does not fit the general gist of an adventure path. I think the main plot of the story is to stop the baddies from killing more woodland creatures and you cannot simply wait 30 years for them to hatch and grow to a rideable size.

[Drachasor]

I bolded the important part for emphasis. Torag is a good diety of protection and creation. And is very adamant in his opposition of agressive and destructive deities. Im am pretty sure killing innocent is the opposite of bringing honor to Torag. Note it says scatter their family.. not butcher every last one of them even if they are indefensible children and babies.

Not accepting surrender of enemies as an absolute rule and scattering families aren't good things. At the very least "scattering families" implies that you very well might force death upon them (e.g. homeless wandering).

Also, forgiveness is explicitly stated to be an alien concept to the god and his worshipers.

"Bringing honor" is a nebulous phrase since it depends on what Torag finds honorable. Apparently he finds killing a helpless enemy that has surrendered honorable. As well as driving the families of your enemies out of their homes and forcing them to flee into an unforgiving wilderness. It is unclear whether this means killing babies is ok. I am not joking here.


One of the many quandaries good-aligned characters face during their adventuring careers is what to do about the progeny of evil humanoids. For example, shortly into their adventures, an adventuring party encounters a group of goblins who have been raiding a village, leaving a swath of death and destruction in their wake. The PCs track them to some caves and kill them—but the dead goblins leave behind babies. What should the PCs do with those? Kill them? Leave them be? What is the best and most appropriate thing for a good character to do in this situation? Just as there are varying good alignments, there are different solutions to this problem. One good character might believe the children are not inherently evil, that their behavior is learned, and round up the young ones to take them to a higher power like a church, a monastery, or an orphanage set up to deal with the issue of raising humanoid children. Alternatively, he might decide to raise them himself! This could be viewed as the most saintly thing to do. Another character might decide not to do anything, leaving the children to the whims of nature—either the children will survive in the wild on their own, or they will not. Lastly, a good character who believes the younglings can never overcome their innate evil might kill them all outright, viewing the action as good, just, and the most merciful option.

The PF view of "good" allows for a lot of 3.X evil.

[Angelalex242]

Playing a Paladin myself, I'd rather raise a gold dragon. They become rideable at very young. Also, ya know, Lawful Good.

Another question for the commune spell. "Has anyone ever in the history you know of ever successfully raised a black dragon to be not evil?"

[Sith_Happens]

Another question for the commune spell. "Has anyone ever in the history you know of ever successfully raised a black dragon to be not evil?"

Just remember that the proper response to a "No" is "CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.":smallcool:

[BWR]

why wont diplomacy work BWR?
It has a near human int.

For the same reason that Diplomacy doesn't work on small children. They lack the requisite agency and sense of the distinction between self and world.

I am aware that hatchling dragons are far less helpless and ignorant than newborn humans but I can't recall any sources stating that they are instantly capable of functioning with complex interpersonal relationships, which is what Diplomacy is meant to work with. Diplomacy also assumes a sort of oppositional, if not necessarily hostile, relationship between the parties, while here the paladin will function as primary caregiver and teacher. Unless you assume that the dragon hatches fully capable of speaking language with lots of knowledge of the world and the common relationship between dragons and humanoids and everything (in which case it wouldn't need a parent figure), the paladin will be teaching it most everything it knows.

Profession (teacher/trainer/nanny) would be more appropriate.

[Angelalex242]

Just remember that the proper response to a "No" is "CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.":smallcool:

If you're playing an Emmisary of Barachiel or have somebody custom make a dragon sized helm of opposite alignment...then yeah, challenge accepted.

For anyone else, the next question is, "Would trying to raise the Black Dragons be a productive use of time?"

[Drachasor]

For the same reason that Diplomacy doesn't work on small children. They lack the requisite agency and sense of the distinction between self and world.

I am aware that hatchling dragons are far less helpless and ignorant than newborn humans but I can't recall any sources stating that they are instantly capable of functioning with complex interpersonal relationships, which is what Diplomacy is meant to work with. Diplomacy also assumes a sort of oppositional, if not necessarily hostile, relationship between the parties, while here the paladin will function as primary caregiver and teacher. Unless you assume that the dragon hatches fully capable of speaking language with lots of knowledge of the world and the common relationship between dragons and humanoids and everything (in which case it wouldn't need a parent figure), the paladin will be teaching it most everything it knows.

Profession (teacher/trainer/nanny) would be more appropriate.

Eh, in my experience you get a lot more mileage out of treating small kids like people than treating them like dogs. (OP mentioned handle animal). It's definitely Diplomacy. I suppose you could just say it is all one skill check or a few in an obscure profession, but that's not very fun


If you're playing an Emmisary of Barachiel or have somebody custom make a dragon sized helm of opposite alignment...then yeah, challenge accepted.

For anyone else, the next question is, "Would trying to raise the Black Dragons be a productive use of time?"

The campaign the OP is in has a ton of downtime. That's the nature of the beast. So he can afford to spend a lot of time on a project.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

In regards to the Good/Evil action, as a Paladin, you Did Right. Congratulations.
Now for step 2 - hie thee and thine eggs to a monastary of your patron Goddess, that those devoted to Her (and perhaps your higher-ups can find a dragon that is) can spend the Huge Amount of Time Necessary to raise these critters 'properly'.


My campaign world (using the PF engine, as it were) has a very simple rule about dragons: that they are Not Color-Coded For Your Convenience. Dragons gain their coloration as a defensive / hunt-assist measure, depending on their domain, so you could have a LG Black dragon, or a CE Gold. Fun fun.

However, yes - understand that you ARE a paladin, and your place isn't sitting at home knitting chainmail booties for the dracokiddes, it's Out There kicking righteous ass and protecting the innocent - which, again, you just did, so kudos to you. You very much need to get top-end guidance on this, as well as help for when you get called to go elsewhere. But ... good job. +5,000 XP for a good decision. ;)

[hymer]

So I ask my DM if Black Dragons are ALWAYS evil, or USUALLY evil. He says usually.

A paladin with ranks in Knowledge (Arcana)? Interesting. :smallwink:
But seriously, it seems to me the DM is willing to let you go either way with this less than definitive statement (unless he's one of those DMs always trying to make the paladins fall - but then you're damned whether you do or you don't). So the question becomes, which option would make for a better game? For you, for the other players, and the DM. If this going to cause a split in the group, consider that. Do you want to retire your character for child-rearing? I doubt the DM/module would have let these eggs fall into your hands unless it was acceptable for them to get smashed. OTOH, you may be working yourself into a conundrum for little reason. Maybe the eggs are infertile, maybe they'll get taken off your hands next session.

In short; don't sweat it, go with the option that's best for the game.

[hamishspence]

Do you know any good dragon's who might want to adopt nest? Dragon might not more about raising little wyrmlings than anyone else I'd imagine.

Crystal dragons (CN) have a habit of taking white dragon eggs and trying to raise the white dragon wyrmlings up to be nonevil, according to MM2. And sometimes it works.

A good choice in this context might be a water-dwelling good dragon species, such as Bronze Dragons.

In background info (one of the heroes of Cormanther in Forgotten Realms, for example), humanoids have successfully raised chromatic dragons to be nonevil- though it's rare.

[Brookshw]

Honestly I think the wrong conversation is being had here regarding what should have been there in the first place. Perhaps consider this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16152989#post16152989)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just remember that the proper response to a "No" is "CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.":smallcool:

That's what being a Paladin is all about.:smallcool:

[Red Fel]

Tell me, do you have any kind of powerful arcanist in your party? Does he have a fondness for new and exciting experiments?

And are you familiar with the Noble Draconians of Dragonlance?

Don't just raise possibly-evil dragon hatchlings. Raise a small squadron of definitely-good dragon-people.

[Brookshw]

Tell me, do you have any kind of powerful arcanist in your party? Does he have a fondness for new and exciting experiments?

And are you familiar with the Noble Draconians of Dragonlance?

Don't just raise possibly-evil dragon hatchlings. Raise a small squadron of definitely-good dragon-people.

Did they refluff it past the 2e concept that draconians exist via killing eggs/baby dragons?

[LordBiscuit]

Honestly I think the wrong conversation is being had here regarding what should have been there in the first place. Perhaps consider this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16152989#post16152989)

I took one look at the that page and took a heartly chuckle at the chaotic goblin example. Though the problem is that dragons really are that borderline between a savage rampaging beast and a civilied super magical being. In even their youngest is village wreaking monster.

Personally if I'm dealing with dragons or whatever monsterity, the pressence of eggs force the players to deal with it in one of three ways. Two of which is unpleasent (killing, or leaving it to die/be a hazard) and the responcablity (which considering how many dungions an advanturer travels in, could potencially be gigantic)

Best way is to just scrap that aspect of releasim if the DM includes such a campiagn that involves the theoretical burning of an orphanage, just stop him and say "No, I am/we are not confortable doing this. DO not give us this kind of situation."

That being said, my only experience involved the hacking up of two PC's by a rather psychotic dwarf PC that was trying to horde power, followed by a fresh donation of meat to the local orphanage. That was rather hilarious for us, though it was party because it was done in such a slapstick manner and partly because the campiagn had dessolved into a somewhat inconherrent mess. Otherwise we firmly avoid that situation.

That being said, your paladin actions are actually above the standards that I would expect from one, I know a lot of people who would have destoried the egg for equally noble reasons. Bravo!

[Brookshw]

Go beyond the first page, the first 5 I think is probably the crux of it.

Agreed the paladin is being roleplayed rather well.

[Mono Vertigo]

Yeah, I commend your choice. You're being unquestionably good, and you're setting up very interesting roleplay opportunities for later, whatever happens.

[Red Fel]

Did they refluff it past the 2e concept that draconians exist via killing eggs/baby dragons?

Killing is such a strong word. I prefer "repurposing."

[Manly Man]

How many of the eggs there are is going to have an effect the answer of what to do. Honestly, as a Paladin, I would keep it entirely in-character and try to raise them myself., so long as there were no more than two that hatched (after all, most animals that have lots of children do so because many do not survive). I would find it much easier to work on the moral half of their raising than the ethical one, since erraticism is simply the wyrmling being unpredictable. Teach them to exercise morals, and what you have is a fun-loving, playful, and above all else CUTE pair of examples of what faith in both oneself and the potential goodness of everyone can do.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon
If you have a spare Bag of Holding or the like, commandeer it and toss the eggs in it (their oxygen supply is in the egg, so no worries there).

Is there a passage in a supplement that specifies that last part? Eggs need to breathe.


Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon
...(maybe even give them a bit of... golden incentive, ifyouknowwhatimean).

Doesn't even have to be an "incentive," since it's perfectly reasonable to offer to help out with what will be an extraordinary expense, potentially over decades or centuries. Even a LG monastery would be a little leery of taking on a very long-term responsibility without some guarantee of basic support.

And a paladin, naturally, would feel obligated to provide it. This could be the incentive to develop an endowment for the support of the dragonets, possibly involving long-term investment and financial innovation. Who knows, this paladin could be the first to bring double-entry bookkeeping into his world.

:smalltongue:

[Angelalex242]

Divination/Commune spells still answer most of this.

"Should I try to raise them myself?"

"Should I leave them with the temple? "

Etc. Trying to raise an evil dragon to be good is still a task that Solars themselves would have trouble pulling off, let alone mere mortals.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Angelalex242
Trying to raise an evil dragon to be good is still a task that Solars themselves would have trouble pulling off, let alone mere mortals.

Possibly, yes.

But I would argue, and I think the OP's character would agree, that the teachings of his patron require him to try.

[awa]

even a new born black dragon has an int of 8 and a wis 11 that more then enough to be able to use diplomacy with a small child dragons are born speaking their birth language in most depictions ive seen.

[Angelalex242]

Possibly, yes.

But I would argue, and I think the OP's character would agree, that the teachings of his patron require him to try.

Sure, just saying it's arrogant to try to raise inherently evil creatures with little more then your own wisdom to work with. You GOTTA get help from upstairs to deal with the task.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Angelalex242
Sure, just saying it's arrogant to try to raise inherently evil creatures with little more then your own wisdom to work with. You GOTTA get help from upstairs to deal with the task.

Well, I might not go so far as "arrogant," but "boneheaded and foolhardy" could certainly apply. :smalltongue:

And agreed, the help from upstairs would likely be vital. It really is a daunting task, especially when you hit the terrible twos.

:smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sure, just saying it's arrogant to try to raise inherently evil creatures with little more then your own wisdom to work with. You GOTTA get help from upstairs to deal with the task.

The DM changed the paradigm though. By making black dragons usually evil he's removed the inherent evil from them. Only always evil creatures are ever inherently evil, at least according to the MM (don't know if pathfinder changed this or not.)

[hymer]

The DM changed the paradigm though. By making black dragons usually evil he's removed the inherent evil from them. Only always evil creatures are ever inherently evil, at least according to the MM (don't know if pathfinder changed this or not.)

Are you sure they were both talking game terms there? The way it was said as 'ALWAYS' makes it seem that they were clarifying what 'always' means game technically (i.e. 'Not always' which sounds an awful lot like 'usually' in everyday terms).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are you sure they were both talking game terms there? The way it was said as 'ALWAYS' makes it seem that they were clarifying what 'always' means game technically (i.e. 'Not always' which sounds an awful lot like 'usually' in everyday terms).

I suppose it's possible that they weren't talking about the game terms but I don't see any reason to assume that.

Using those particular terms in the common parlance would inherently cause confusion. Did the op mean game terms? Did the DM? Did they both mean the same thing? Occam's Razor suggests I should simply assume game terms unless the OP clarifies.

[hymer]

Who was it that said something like "The simplest explanation is almost always that somebody screwed up"? I have a feeling it was Dr. Gregory House. :smallbiggrin: Anyway, it may be something for the OP to think about. I know my group is oftentimes a little iffy on this, so I may just be picking up the idea from that.

[Brookshw]

The more important bit is to get your dm to let you use that dragon as your next character after you raise it (50 years down the road in the next campaign).

[Zubrowka74]

If you make a black dragon omelette out of them, that's one meal. Perhaps two if there's leftovers.

If you try and raise them, they will never be old enough to pose a threath to you. It doesn't work? You can always kill them later and you'll have a chance to get some nifty black dragon hide.

[Zaeron]

Wow, this thread really blew up. Tons of stuff to cover, so I'll try to hit the high points:

1) My DM's really not a 'gotcha' style DM in regards to my paladin. As long as I can explain what I'm doing and why I feel like it's good/right, he very rarely challenges it - I think he's pulled the 'gee are you sure a paladin would do that' card once in the entire campaign, and when I explained why I was doing it he agreed that it made sense. So I'm not worried that this is a trap that's intended to get me all ****ed up and make me Fall or something.

2) The dragon, unfortunately, does not need to be a threat to me to be dangerous. The setting involves us running a kingdom, while still being an adventuring party. We have high level helpers, but 4-6th level, not 9-10. So a clutch of small black dragons would still be extremely dangerous to our city of a few hundred people, especially if they went nutso while we were out of town.

3) Further, no less than 3 nefarious groups have been interested in the dragon eggs. An evil druid who almost certainly outlevels us, a group of werewolves who've been trying to kill us for ages, and the now dead person who was intending to usurp our kingdom, kill us, and then pin the 'black dragon kidnapping slavers' card on us.

4) I don't DISTRUST my party exactly. In fact, I trust them a lot. I trust them enough that in general, when the Cleric of Abadar invites me to take a walk with him, I'm generally willing to do so. They adhere to agreements we make and haven't ever forced me to go back on my word to anyone. If, occasionally, we have odd information after I take a walk, well, I have WIS 8 for a reason.

5) That said, I made an oath to raise/take responsibility for the eggs for a reason. My party is very, very aware that I take my oaths seriously. Someone sneaking around to kill the eggs at this point would result in my character leaving the party at the very least.

6) As far as finding a monastary, I guess I could just BUILD one. This is probably a good time to ask my DM about retraining into the Leadership feat. God knows I've got the charisma for it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wow, this thread really blew up. Tons of stuff to cover, so I'll try to hit the high points:Yeah, these alignment and morality (not the same thing) threads tend to do that.


1) My DM's really not a 'gotcha' style DM in regards to my paladin. As long as I can explain what I'm doing and why I feel like it's good/right, he very rarely challenges it - I think he's pulled the 'gee are you sure a paladin would do that' card once in the entire campaign, and when I explained why I was doing it he agreed that it made sense. So I'm not worried that this is a trap that's intended to get me all ****ed up and make me Fall or something.That is very good to hear. You see entirely too many threads about d-bag DM's pulling the old "gotcha. lol, trollface."


2) The dragon, unfortunately, does not need to be a threat to me to be dangerous. The setting involves us running a kingdom, while still being an adventuring party. We have high level helpers, but 4-6th level, not 9-10. So a clutch of small black dragons would still be extremely dangerous to our city of a few hundred people, especially if they went nutso while we were out of town.No one says that they have to be raised together. Separate the eggs and send them to different towns, abbeys, monasteries, etc; assuming they're still alive that is. Three or four 6th level characters should be able to take a wyrmling black dragon if it flips out on them.


3) Further, no less than 3 nefarious groups have been interested in the dragon eggs. An evil druid who almost certainly outlevels us, a group of werewolves who've been trying to kill us for ages, and the now dead person who was intending to usurp our kingdom, kill us, and then pin the 'black dragon kidnapping slavers' card on us. Oh dear. Do we have any allies to go with all these enemies? If not, why not? Kingdoms tend to be more prosperous if they engage in trade with neighboring kingdoms. That might be something to consider.


4) I don't DISTRUST my party exactly. In fact, I trust them a lot. I trust them enough that in general, when the Cleric of Abadar invites me to take a walk with him, I'm generally willing to do so. They adhere to agreements we make and haven't ever forced me to go back on my word to anyone. If, occasionally, we have odd information after I take a walk, well, I have WIS 8 for a reason.That's also good. Too many threads about paladin - other PC X discord floating around too.


5) That said, I made an oath to raise/take responsibility for the eggs for a reason. My party is very, very aware that I take my oaths seriously. Someone sneaking around to kill the eggs at this point would result in my character leaving the party at the very least.Er..... oh dear. This is important. Did you take an oath to raise them or to take responsibility for them? The latter has the wiggle room to pass them off to underlings and nurse-maids. If you took an oath to personally raise them though, you may want to consider retiring the character. Even though dragons are certainly more capable of taking care of themselves right from their hatching than most any other creature on the prime, raising kids is still going to be a major hurdle to further adventuring for a while.


6) As far as finding a monastary, I guess I could just BUILD one. This is probably a good time to ask my DM about retraining into the Leadership feat. God knows I've got the charisma for it.

Kingmaker does seem (from what I've heard) to be a good candidate for an adventure in which leadership is a good idea.

[Big Fau]

2) The dragon, unfortunately, does not need to be a threat to me to be dangerous. The setting involves us running a kingdom, while still being an adventuring party. We have high level helpers, but 4-6th level, not 9-10. So a clutch of small black dragons would still be extremely dangerous to our city of a few hundred people, especially if they went nutso while we were out of town.

This is why you hire a babysitter. Namely a Hound Archon, and be sure to get an acid-resistance material for a crib.


3) Further, no less than 3 nefarious groups have been interested in the dragon eggs. An evil druid who almost certainly outlevels us, a group of werewolves who've been trying to kill us for ages, and the now dead person who was intending to usurp our kingdom, kill us, and then pin the 'black dragon kidnapping slavers' card on us.

Make that a dozen Hound Archons.


5) That said, I made an oath to raise/take responsibility for the eggs for a reason. My party is very, very aware that I take my oaths seriously. Someone sneaking around to kill the eggs at this point would result in my character leaving the party at the very least.

Tell them it's a "Life for Life" matter. If the party kills the dragons/destroys the eggs, they have slain innocents and are no longer protected by your Paladin CoC.


6) As far as finding a monastary, I guess I could just BUILD one. This is probably a good time to ask my DM about retraining into the Leadership feat. God knows I've got the charisma for it.

Again, Hound Archons. And maybe a Copper Dragon (provided you can deal with the consequences).

[Manly Man]

And maybe a Copper Dragon (provided you can deal with the consequences).

Oh gods, if the copper was a wyrmling too, you'd have no chance at all. Both of them would trash the house because the copper did some prank that pissed off the black, and when you ask which one started it, they end up fighting again because they keep blaming each other.

I would need a very, very strong drink after that. :smalleek:

[Zaeron]

No one says that they have to be raised together. Separate the eggs and send them to different towns, abbeys, monasteries, etc; assuming they're still alive that is. Three or four 6th level characters should be able to take a wyrmling black dragon if it flips out on them.

My primary concern here is that spreading the dragons around multiple areas just makes it more likely that one or more will get snagged by Evil Raiding Party number 16.


Oh dear. Do we have any allies to go with all these enemies? If not, why not? Kingdoms tend to be more prosperous if they engage in trade with neighboring kingdoms. That might be something to consider.

Well, yes. We do. In fact. There are some good options available to me in terms of pawning them off on others. But my paladin isn't really the 'hey you should take care of this for me' type of guy, and in any case, the character is firmly of the belief that giving these dragons to someone else is only slightly less deadly than killing them immediately - the people hunting these dragons are a significant threat to the entire party, let alone Bob the Abbot and his dozen second level acolytes.


That's also good. Too many threads about paladin - other PC X discord floating around too.

We all make a significant effort OOC to keep IC conflict to a relative minimum. Before I added the paladin to the group I talked with the party about it and we decided it would be manageable, especially since we have several other lawful or good party members.


Er..... oh dear. This is important. Did you take an oath to raise them or to take responsibility for them? The latter has the wiggle room to pass them off to underlings and nurse-maids. If you took an oath to personally raise them though, you may want to consider retiring the character. Even though dragons are certainly more capable of taking care of themselves right from their hatching than most any other creature on the prime, raising kids is still going to be a major hurdle to further adventuring for a while.

I forget my exact wording and my DM is unlikely to hold me to a statement that would force me to retire the character when we could tweak it slightly. I think my actual oath was basically 'I'll take responsibility for these guys and if it gets ****ed up I'll deal with it' which has room for delegating.


Kingmaker does seem (from what I've heard) to be a good candidate for an adventure in which leadership is a good idea.

My DM is skittish about it because we're a group of 5, but I'm really wanting to do it. Not even for the combat stuff but because having an actual church would be really neat in my opinion.


This is why you hire a babysitter. Namely a Hound Archon, and be sure to get an acid-resistance material for a crib.

Where the hell am I going to get a Hound Archon from?

[Big Fau]

Where the hell am I going to get a Hound Archon from?

You've got a Cleric in the party, right? 9th level? And Pathfinder?

Toss him some GP for a couple of Lesser Planar Ally castings.

[Angelalex242]

You want to pick an angel over an archon. Angels are acid proof (and cold proof). Archons are only electricity proof.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My primary concern here is that spreading the dragons around multiple areas just makes it more likely that one or more will get snagged by Evil Raiding Party number 16.Better than all of them getting back into evil hands. Keeping them separate makes it more difficult to get them all back by forcing any particular enemy force to spread themselves that much thinner for a coordinated strike or to hit them one at a time, giving you the opportunity to observe their method and take suitable counter measures. Honestly though, I don't know how the slavers that had them even planned on keeping them once they hatched. Three or four black wyrmlings is roughly equivalent to a 3rd level party.




Well, yes. We do. In fact. There are some good options available to me in terms of pawning them off on others. But my paladin isn't really the 'hey you should take care of this for me' type of guy, and in any case, the character is firmly of the belief that giving these dragons to someone else is only slightly less deadly than killing them immediately - the people hunting these dragons are a significant threat to the entire party, let alone Bob the Abbot and his dozen second level acolytes.Ugh. You've really painted yourself into a corner on raising them yourself, haven't you. The only solid advice I have is make damn sure you don't run out of food for the little buggers. This could lead to some RP gold but it could also be the most massive headache imaginable. Dealing with kids is tough enough when they don't blast acid from a maw full of dagger sharp teeth or have claws that can rend steel.




We all make a significant effort OOC to keep IC conflict to a relative minimum. Before I added the paladin to the group I talked with the party about it and we decided it would be manageable, especially since we have several other lawful or good party members.My hat's off to the lot of you then. Damned respectable behavior that.




I forget my exact wording and my DM is unlikely to hold me to a statement that would force me to retire the character when we could tweak it slightly. I think my actual oath was basically 'I'll take responsibility for these guys and if it gets ****ed up I'll deal with it' which has room for delegating.I've given pretty much all the advice I can now so all that's left to say is "Good luck."




My DM is skittish about it because we're a group of 5, but I'm really wanting to do it. Not even for the combat stuff but because having an actual church would be really neat in my opinion.Remind him that just because you have a cohort doesn't mean it has to follow you around everywhere. Your cohort can remain behind to manage your followers and then you have your church backing without significantly changing how things play except when you're actually at the church.

[Blackhawk748]

Sure, just saying it's arrogant to try to raise inherently evil creatures with little more then your own wisdom to work with. You GOTTA get help from upstairs to deal with the task.

I take offense to the inherently evil comment lol I have seen, in WotC canon a Succubus Paladin, as in Lawful Good. So if a Demon can be good, i think it will be a lot easier to get a couple of Black Dragon babies to CN.

I actually had a Dragon Shaman Frost Dwarf who raised a half black half white dragon that some elf knight/paladin douchbrick orphaned, yes he killed his parents who simply were chilling in a frozen swamp not bothering anyone. The elf came in response to rumors of a village being burnt down, now we all know that neither of those breeds breathe fire, well this guy was a moron.

Well my Dragon Shaman was taking a cow to the two dragons, he did this on a semi regular basis in order to keep them happy, when he found this one egg left, the others were smashed, he took it back to the ruined tower were he lived and raised it for about a year. When the dragon was hunting mister elf came back and killed my dwarf, though i did chop off his arm. The dragon returned to find his foster father killed by the same elf that had killed his birth parents.

I later played this dragon in an evil campaign in where i killed the Elf and got his revenge.

The moral? Dragons arent born evil, they become evil, some are just more predisposed towards violence and bullying, evilness, then others.

I say raise those dragons and let your grandchildren ride them into battle against the hordes of Evil. "It will be GLORIOUS"

[Drachasor]

Hmm, as far as hiding them goes, my initial thought would be an Animated Object.

A Gargantuan/Colossal is 20k/30k to make (though you'd need someone with Craft Construct. Bit expensive at your current level, I admit. But a flying tower/castle would be hard to get too. Toss in a modified Eversmoking Bottle (for cloud cover) and it would be hard to notice it up in the sky. The equivalent of a Ring of Chameleon Power (+10 Stealth Checks) might be better.

Hmm, Pathfinder really made it hard to avoid scrying.

Hmm, another option is a Permanent Mage's Sanctum. 12.5k, but that's another plane so that's a +5 bonus against scrying within.

[Angelalex242]

The Succubus Paladin is way too much grey for some people's black and white worlds. Some of us want to smite the evil, not sit there wondering if the eldritch abomination could've been saved.

[MonochromeTiger]

The Succubus Paladin is way too much grey for some people's black and white worlds. Some of us want to smite the evil, not sit there wondering if the eldritch abomination could've been saved.

that's nice, it doesn't mean everyone does though. some people prefer a bit more thought than break down door and kill all the "monsters" because the bestiary says they're usually evil. nurture over nature is a term for a reason and there are several groups who take it into account instead of deciding "nope they've never done anything but they're evil cause this piece of paper says their entire race is evil".

but yeah I'd suggest getting yourself, anyone else involved, and the environment you're raising the dragon in as acid-proofed as you can. not because it's immediately going to attack you but because it's a BABY dragon, babies tend to be low on bodily function control and dragons don't seem like the kind of creatures who just cry when they're young and want attention..

[Drachasor]

The Succubus Paladin is way too much grey for some people's black and white worlds. Some of us want to smite the evil, not sit there wondering if the eldritch abomination could've been saved.

*sigh* That's what my group is like except for me and my brother (who's the DM right now). It's very annoying at times.

Personally, I like some generally pure evil stuff (zombies, most demons, etc). But it would be nice if my group could handle the idea that a goblin or orc doesn't have to be pure evil.

[Angelalex242]

Admittedly, orcs being evil is a Tolkien holdover. Think of your typical JRR Tolkien Orc. And ask yourself, what're the odds of redeeming him? Does Aragorn stop to ask? Does Gandalf? Nope.

[Akal Saris]

Actually, I'm running a KM game right now, and my PCs are planning to craft helms of opposite alignment to convert the black dragons that they encountered to good alignment.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Better than all of them getting back into Remind him that just because you have a cohort doesn't mean it has to follow you around everywhere. Your cohort can remain behind to manage your followers and then you have your church backing without significantly changing how things play except when you're actually at the church.

While at first I was more than a little leery about getting Leadership and founding a church/monastery, this post reminded me that y'know, I once did the same thing - used the Leadership feat to establish a church, then stated that the cohort would be the 'second-in-command/leader when I'm away' of the group, which made up the 'combat-ready' members of the church, which of course stayed 'at home' when my character went adventuring.

My only additional advice would be to talk with your GM so that you're still able to do your questing while the dragons are being raised by someone, well ... competent. Presuming some stuff, (I'm guessing he's got a 4-5 Charisma bonus?) I guessed his Leadership score to hit 17. A cohort your level -2 means a 7th level 2nd in command, but 30 1st levels, 3 2nd, plus a 3rd and a 4th means that you have some moderately competent nannies and teachers.