player party overpowered

[buzzkillington]

So Ive been asked to run 'city of the spiderqueen' for our group but we are vastly overpowed there are 6 of us and we have all optimised our characters fairly well. We are at level 12 at the minute and just took down a CR15 white dragon with ease.

As we are starting the campain 2 levels higher than its built for and we are a tad more powerful (as a group) than we are supposed to be what is the best way to make it more balanced, so it feels more like a challenge as right now everything is feeling pretty easy.

[FinnDarkblade]

It depends on how much work you're willing to do. The best way would probably be to go through the module and amp up all the enemies to better suit your group's power level. That could be quite a bit of work though.

[Metahuman1]

Add more monsters. One dragon not proving enough of a threat?

Give him some Clerics of Tiamet and a batch of Kobolt Sorcerers.

That drow raiding party not an issue? Increase the number of melees and throw a few clerics/wizards in there.


Also, casting, use it.

[buzzkillington]

Adding more mobs in seams like the simplest option but is dificult to gadge exactly how much more I need to put in I dont wanna just throw in 2 extras as we would usualy just cut though them In half a round extra and if I amp it up too much ill just kill them all outright. Is there any simple way to judge the appropriate CR of the group as all I can find is words to the effect of 'take an average of the character levels' as this doesnt work as 4 level 20s and 10 level 20s would be the same.

[FinnDarkblade]

Is there any simple way to judge the appropriate CR of the group as all I can find is words to the effect of 'take an average of the character levels' as this doesnt work as 4 level 20s and 10 level 20s would be the same.

It's definitely not a perfect system, but remember that the game is designed for groups of about 4 players so 6 players shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

[Big Fau]

A single CR 15 against a party of 6 ECL 12s is dead on it's feet unless optimized to the point that the action economy doesn't matter. Depending on the party's builds, you may well be dealing with the equivalent of 8-12 PCs instead of the physical 6 you're seeing at the table. You need to plan the encounters as if the party was several levels higher than what their character sheets say.

[FinnDarkblade]

A single CR 15 against a party of 6 ECL 12s is dead on it's feet unless optimized to the point that the action economy doesn't matter. Depending on the party's builds, you may well be dealing with the equivalent of 8-12 PCs instead of the physical 6 you're seeing at the table. You need to plan the encounters as if the party was several levels higher than what their character sheets say.

Yeah, action economy is the big thing you need to be careful of when building single opponent encounters. How optimized is this party?

[Ansem]

Give all enemies full HP (or double full) and +2 on all stats.

[FinnDarkblade]

Give all enemies full HP (or double full) and +2 on all stats.

That'll only help a little bit against a party optimized for ability score damage or SoD's.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Give all enemies full HP (or double full) and +2 on all stats.
Better yet, give 'em an extra turn. (Especially solo baddies). Unless your players are huge sticklers about RAW and "verisimilitude," you shouldn't need any explanation beyond "it helps stop you from action economy-ing everything into pushovers." I've been doing it for years with my group.

[FinnDarkblade]

Better yet, give 'em an extra turn. (Especially solo baddies). Unless your players are huge sticklers about RAW and "verisimilitude," you shouldn't need any explanation beyond "it helps stop you from action economy-ing everything into pushovers." I've been doing it for years with my group.

Do you mean one extra turn in the encounter or two turns every round?

[Blackhawk748]

with a party that big, any boss needs to be at least 4-6 CR above the party. I ran a boss that was a CR 15-ish, and my party fought it at lvl 9, it was a glorious epic battle, that they ultimately won. now that was 4 lvl 9s, a Bard, a Sorc, a Knight, and a Druid, none were super optimized. im thinking you need to jack up all the CRs by at least 3

Edit: also my Big Bad had one extra Standard action that he could only use to cast spells, or activate his Spell Like abilities

[Grod_The_Giant]

Do you mean one extra turn in the encounter or two turns every round?
Two turns a round, aye.

[Twilightwyrm]

Unfortunately, you already have more players than the module is designed for, meaning you would already be at an advantage. With the additional power behind your characters, at least the very start is going to be easy already. While you could go with the advice of simply increasing the number, or power, of enemies, unless you want to be doing this for the entire module, it is never going to balance out. Higher CR encounters mean more XP, meaning your characters will simply stay more powerful than the module. You could keep the module the same, but it could take a while to balance out.
What you could try is to reevaluate the process. The characters are already powerful, high level adventurers (hell, dragonslayers to boot!). They should not generally be randomly following up on the leads of increased drow raiding parties themselves. Even if they personally investigate (and fight) the first couple of encounters themselves, they probably have the resources available to quickly locate the threat, and the best way to get to it. In this manner, you can have them go through many of the same encounters, but rather than fighting drow raiding parties, perhaps attempting to contact and successfully bride their way towards whatever part of the adventure the players would normally be 12th level at, then continue as normal from there. The key here is not to make it shorter (the players should get the full, or at least equivalent, experience), but rather turning some of the combat encounters into safer diplomatic ones, (which, while interesting, generally award somewhat less XP). If they've fought drow in the past, they can work through then channels they had then (either interrogating captured enemies, or using previously employed information channels). Let them get to where they are supposed to be by their own (considerable!) power, rather than letting them narrative pull them there. before long, they are where they need to be, at the level they need to be, and they get to feel like they skipped a grade in school. I would caution you though, this approach is rather...work intensive on the party of the DM. So prepare accordingly.

[Blackhawk748]

Lotsa really good info

A great suggestion, and it lets the party get some good roleplaying in, something that may be in short supply in certain groups lol

[buzzkillington]

I dont think my group would go for the 2turns a round thing, overarching DM is a very 'to the book' sort of player so im fairly sure he would veto it straight up. The forcing them to to be diplomatic seems like the best route but its going to be very difficult as they are all very much run in and kill everything sort of players.

If I were to amp up the difficulty i.e. more stronger mobs but lower the xp earned to slow down the level progress if they do force combat but also warding them off combat as it would be so tough?

[Sir Chuckles]

I dont think my group would go for the 2turns a round thing, overarching DM is a very 'to the book' sort of player so im fairly sure he would veto it straight up. The forcing them to to be diplomatic seems like the best route but its going to be very difficult as they are all very much run in and kill everything sort of players.

If I were to amp up the difficulty i.e. more stronger mobs but lower the xp earned to slow down the level progress if they do force combat but also warding them off combat as it would be so tough?

If he's by the books, remember that a low enough CR gives no experience to the player. 6 optimized Lv12 players is enough to kill a Tarrasque, depending on circumstances.
Modules are built assuming 4 standard players, not 6 powerful ones. Depending on how well they actually are built (you left it very ambiguous. Do you mean there's a Wizard with metamagic reducers up the wazoo and more than one ring of wizardry?), they could be effectively 6 Lv15 players. Sometimes even higher.

Add minions. Little do people realize the power of just one invisible Cleric playing healbot with a Wand of Vigor and throwing around Restorations. Even a low level Cleric can do this. By the rules, a party of 6 CR12 will not get any experience from anything that's CR4. That's a 4th level Kobold Cleric. And the party would only get 1000 exp each for 20, twenty, Kobold Cleric 5's. That's 20 Blindness/Deafness spells. Statistically, the Fighter is now Blind at least once.

[ngilop]

The onyl probelm i see here is a 6 man party of 12th levle character killed a monster whos CR was 3 below theirs ( party ECL vs CR is total levels divided by 4 so 6X12=72/4=18)

this is no different than somebody complainging about being too optimized when they are 4 level 15 PCs killing a CR 12 monster too easy

the best thing the DM can do is just add a couple of monsters


For instance having the white dragon with 2 maybe 5th level half-dragon ogre clerics..

while this would have been CR 14 and still a little weak.. it would have casued the player to burn through more reasources

[Sir Chuckles]

The onyl probelm i see here is a 6 man party of 12th levle character killed a monster whos CR was 3 below theirs ( party ECL vs CR is total levels divided by 4 so 6X12=72/4=18)

this is no different than somebody complainging about being too optimized when they are 4 level 15 PCs killing a CR 12 monster too easy

the best thing the DM can do is just add a couple of monsters


For instance having the white dragon with 2 maybe 5th level half-dragon ogre clerics..

while this would have been CR 14 and still a little weak.. it would have casued the player to burn through more reasources

I'm curious as to where you're getting your math from...
The average party level for 6 ECL 12 characters is 13.2, not 18. Similarly, the Encounter Level for 6 CR 12s would be 17.
And a CR 15 (And Old White) Dragon plus two Cleric 5 Half-Dragon Ogres would be ECL 10, each, meaning that encounter would be CR16.

And there is far more than adding more monster that a DM could do.
There's also traps, natural factors (take the dragon of the cave, and suddenly the lance Fighter has a hard time doing damage)

[Urpriest]

As we are starting the campain 2 levels higher than its built for and we are a tad more powerful (as a group) than we are supposed to be what is the best way to make it more balanced, so it feels more like a challenge as right now everything is feeling pretty easy.

Why did you choose that module, then? :smallconfused:

[Renegade Paladin]

^What he said.

Also, throw in some barbarians with Improved Sunder and break their equipment. That'll power it down real quick.

[Brookshw]

Cheat. No really, go ahead. It's not worth the time to revisit every encounter. If the party optimization means throwing a +100hp +5 ac on every monster go ahead. Do whatever it takes to make the game more fun for everyone.

Frankly I'm done trying to counter optimize encounters to make appropriate encounters. A player does it for one character, doing it per encounter is ridiculous, doubly so when I spend 4 hours building a combat when it turns out to be a fifteen minute rp session where the party talks by the main encounter is a waste of time.

When combat starts just add what you need to and move on.

[buzzkillington]

Why did you choose that module, then? :smallconfused:

Its one the group has wanted to do for a while but we sort of overleveled in previous stuff.

Im liking the invisible clerics idea that could extend the combat to a more acceptable state. And just buffing them up in heath and AC is realy the most sensible option.

[Jormengand]

Have the enemies act like Tucker's Kobolds - actually use tactics rather than just attacking with your strongest ability over and over again.

[Spore]

So Ive been asked to run 'city of the spiderqueen' for our group but we are vastly overpowed there are 6 of us and we have all optimised our characters fairly well. We are at level 12 at the minute and just took down a CR15 white dragon with ease.

Tbh white dragons are the worst and easiest to kill. Weakness to the most common damage type? Fricking stupid for a dragon? Immensely large ego? Check, check check.

[ngilop]

I'm curious as to where you're getting your math from...
The average party level for 6 ECL 12 characters is 13.2, not 18. Similarly, the Encounter Level for 6 CR 12s would be 17.
And a CR 15 (And Old White) Dragon plus two Cleric 5 Half-Dragon Ogres would be ECL 10, each, meaning that encounter would be CR16.

And there is far more than adding more monster that a DM could do.
There's also traps, natural factors (take the dragon of the cave, and suddenly the lance Fighter has a hard time doing damage)

CR is to repset what a medium difficulty encounter is againt 4 PCs or equal level.

SO a CR 15 monster is upposed to be meduim against 4 LvL 15 PCs


When you have 6 PCs you have to take the total levels and divide by 4 as that is the number CR is weighed against.


and my bad with that last bit of math.. LOL I was adding teh added CR from teh ogres to 12 from my example earlier in the post, not to the 15 I needed to.


considerign they started teh module out 2 levels higher AND there 2 more than the mdoule is written for just adding a couple of lower powered, but still capable monsters in each encounter would do wonders.

id go for a 2/3 CR ration myself.. i.e you need a CR 12 guy.. ad in 2 CR 8s as well. the NPCs won't get any additional exp for them won't really add to the difficulty BUT make them waste some ( mino most likely ) resources.

[buzzkillington]

Cheers for all the advice guys. I think I have a few workable 'fixes' now.

Also if ECL is total levels of player party /4 then ive misunderstood it and this makes it much easier to work out a fairer fight.

[Urpriest]

Cheers for all the advice guys. I think I have a few workable 'fixes' now.

Also if ECL is total levels of player party /4 then ive misunderstood it and this makes it much easier to work out a fairer fight.

It's not, but it's an ok approximation.

A better one is to think about encounters. Two creatures of CR X give an EL X+2 encounter, while a creature of CR X and one of CR X-1 give an EL X+1 encounter. Applied to an adventuring party, a typical party of four ECL X characters is an EL X+4 encounter, while a party of six is an EL X+5 encounter. So you should be throwing things at them with roughly one more CR, just due to number of PCs alone.

[pwykersotz]

I'm in exactly the same scenario right now, running that very module except my party is 3 highly optimized characters. Keep in mind that the end boss is a level 20 cleric with a couple of artifacts. You can justify any enhancements of which she is capable of casting/crafting/scribing.

Also, I recommend replacing all fighters with ToB characters of the same level. Just to keep it interesting.

Examples of what I have changed:
She Apocalypse from the Sky'd Daggerdale, made the PC's freaking hate her.
The NPC's who get away gain levels and come back. Dorina and Zedarr tactically retreated from Szith Morcane and now have several more levels and heavy support from Maermydra.
Chahir, the first vampire encounter, got away and harasses them constantly, usually at the worst possible times.
The Illithids are highly optimized. Especially Quthnorak. A cleverly played Psion with the home-field advantage and a Beholder at his door is a mean challenge, and you have to rebuild him if you're doing 3.5 and using Psionics anyway.

These are just a few changes. Overall I also maximized HP and sometimes gave the baddies reasonable buffs given the levels of caster they had access to. I definitely recommend more mooks for you though, maybe with Warlock levels. Easy enough to kill, but darned if they aren't inconvenient when they all start doing 4d6 damage touch attacks each and there are 8 of them.