(3.5)Optimized Cleric vs Optimized Wizard

[tadkins]

I am curious as to who would win in a 1v1 battle.

Assume the standard material is allowed, and assume the standard cheese and such is banned (Incantatrix, Dragon Magazine material, etc). Lastly, assume that both characters know of the upcoming battle and can prepare somewhat.

Let me hear your thoughts. :)

[eggynack]

At what level? Offhand, I'd put my money on the wizard.

[tadkins]

At what level? Offhand, I'd put my money on the wizard.

Ah, sorry, missed that part. Level 20, but both characters have known it would come to this since level 10 or so.

[Ansem]

Cleric will win, both prepared, Cleric has better meta (which is what casters are all about), armour, double the hitdie, better casting stat and domain powers. Wizard just has better spell selection high level but wont pack the punch fast enough when it cant take any at all.

[ryu]

Are no spells banned and is the crafting of contingent spells allowed?

[One Step Two]

I would be leaning towards the Cleric. Better Hit dice, Two good saves, and able to heal themselves on the fly alone makes them strong, but when you factor in a Cleric of Mystra with the Initiate of Mystra Feat, able to use Anti-Magic Field, and still cast spells, gives them a serious edge of the wizard in many ways.

[tadkins]

Are no spells banned and is the crafting of contingent spells allowed?

Contingent spells are allowed. If a spell might be banned by a DM in a typical game it will likely be banned here.

[The Trickster]

PvP? Probably whoever wins initiative first.

[eggynack]

Well, wizards have celerity, and contingency, so that might be enough on its own. It's always all about who goes first, and wizards have more resources focused towards accomplishing that. The chassis just doesn't matter by 20.

[Thanatosia]

It's about a tossup at any realistic 20 as both would have access to the most powerful tools of the other through various means. But if they were somehow restricted to only their own toolkits, I'd say Wizard - mostly because of Contingency and Time Stop.

[ryu]

Contingent spells are allowed. If a spell might be banned by a DM in a typical game it will likely be banned here.

Define typical game. Optimization allowance means a LOT. Like it is literally the most important factor of this contest.

[tadkins]

Define typical game. Optimization allowance means a LOT. Like it is literally the most important factor of this contest.

Hard to say, tough question. Basically anything common sense would allow, and things that wouldn't get DM books thrown at them. The wizard wouldn't be able to use Walls of Iron to make unlimited cash, and thus have unlimited contingent spells, for instance.

[Malak'ai]

What are the conditions of the fight? Does it start up close or from a distance? Is it chance meeting without time to buff or have they had a chance to get select the right spells and get defenses up?

I know you said they've known for a long time that this confrontation would happen, but that doesn't mean they wake up instantly prepared for this battle.

[tadkins]

What are the conditions of the fight? Does it start up close or from a distance? Is it chance meeting without time to buff or have they had a chance to get select the right spells and get defenses up?

I know you said they've known for a long time that this confrontation would happen, but that doesn't mean they wake up instantly prepared for this battle.

They would have known about it and have a set day and time. There'd be buffing time allowed but said buffs would take up spell slots of course. Let's say they both care about honor and fairness, or something. xD

Battle would start about 40 feet away from each other, on a relatively flat, regular surface. Though this isn't to say the battle could end up breaking into another plane or something, which is possible with two powerful T1 casters fighting each other.

[Malak'ai]

In that case, Cleric.
With the usual buffs (Divine Power etc) it would just be charge in and beat the living snot out of the squishy robe wearing s.o.b.

[eggynack]

Hard to say, tough question. Basically anything common sense would allow, and things that wouldn't get DM books thrown at them. The wizard wouldn't be able to use Walls of Iron to make unlimited cash, and thus have unlimited contingent spells, for instance.
If you want to have limitations, they have to be pretty exact and specific ones. Otherwise, a solid chunk of any argument ends up being about whether initiate of mystra or initiate of the sevenfold veil constitutes a higher level of optimization. Even then, once you have the exact ban list in front of you, the discussion will only tell you which is more powerful with that exact ban list. Different people have different standards of optimization, and sometimes they even have different definitions of optimization. Person A might be cool with wizards having some crazy thing, and think that some cleric thing is overkill, and person B might think the exact opposite. It's all very problematic.


In that case, Cleric.
With the usual buffs (Divine Power etc) it would just be charge in and beat the living snot out of the squishy robe wearing s.o.b.
Seriously? The wizard could just abrupt jaunt out of the way, or spend one of the buff rounds on shapechange so that they can start the fight as a dire tortoise and automatically go first, or even have frigging greater mirror image up. This plan does not stand up to scrutiny.

[Blackhawk748]

my money is on Cleric, its just a tougher chassis than the Wizard to start with so it has less work to do to turn into a monster.

[tadkins]

If you want to have limitations, they have to be pretty exact and specific ones. Otherwise, a solid chunk of any argument ends up being about whether initiate of mystra or initiate of the sevenfold veil constitutes a higher level of optimization. Even then, once you have the exact ban list in front of you, the discussion will only tell you which is more powerful with that exact ban list. Different people have different standards of optimization, and sometimes they even have different definitions of optimization. Person A might be cool with wizards having some crazy thing, and think that some cleric thing is overkill, and person B might think the exact opposite. It's all very problematic.


Seriously? The wizard could just abrupt jaunt out of the way, or spend one of the buff rounds on shapechange so that they can start the fight as a dire tortoise and automatically go first, or even have frigging greater mirror image up. This plan does not stand up to scrutiny.

Yep, I did not think this thread through, my apologies. Just had that on my mind earlier, which of the big-time T1 giants would come out ahead. Truth be told I'm not experienced enough with the game to know all of the details, what would be ban-worthy, and so forth.

[EugeneVoid]

IMO

The Cleric wins, because OP said anything that makes DMs throw books is disallowed.
Unless we consider the Block-of-Tofu-DM, in which case, the Wizard will have been completely prepared since level 10 for this confrontation and the Cleric will have no chance to win, because the Wizard will never fight with the cleric.
He'll just celerity, teleport, and run away.

[eggynack]

my money is on Cleric, its just a tougher chassis than the Wizard to start with so it has less work to do to turn into a monster.
As I noted, by level 20, the chassis is completely and utterly irrelevant. An individual spell can end the fight at that point, and neither competitor gives half a crap about how much HP and armor the other has. These are factors at level one, and maybe even at level ten. By level 20, the 9th level spells could probably be on the chassis of a first level commoner without it making much difference.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They both use Genesis to make a personal pocket plane, both use Astral Projection and Plane Shift to fight. One astral projection kills the other, nobody dies.

They each use divination spells to learn the other's name and personal details as early as possible. Whichever one hits level 17 first (or buys the scrolls first) uses Genesis to make a personal pocket plane, then uses Gate to call the other for twice their caster level in rounds. They order their extraplanar servant to dismiss all their buffs, then lay down and go to sleep. One coup de grace later and we have a winner. Regarding Gate, a unique individual is not a unique being, creatures of a race of which only one creature exists (demon princes, etc.) are unique beings. If there could be more than one of a [race+templates] then a unique individual of that race is not a unique being. No unique being is a playable race, so neither character is a unique being.

[eggynack]

Yep, I did not think this thread through, my apologies. Just had that on my mind earlier, which of the big-time T1 giants would come out ahead. Truth be told I'm not experienced enough with the game to know all of the details, what would be ban-worthy, and so forth.
It's a fine thing. I'd honestly go with minimal intervention, because anything else runs up against subjective opinions, and this should ultimately be some sort of test of which class has the best cheese anyway. Maybe something like no PrC's, the sum total of your items must max out at wealth by level, and any first party material is allowed. That's rather standard operating procedure, I think. After that, you just have to set up the arena, and the rules of the fight. Probably something like 1-3 buff rounds, with any buff you can keep up for 16 hours a day being universally allowed.

[Rebel7284]

The options both parties have at this point are overwhelming.

All other things being equal, I would certainly bet on a wizard. Much better spells, more ways to break action economy.

[Thanatosia]

He'll just celerity, teleport, and run away.
Why run away? Why not just time stop, surround the cleric in delayed blast fireballs with Searing Spell, and then watch the mushroom cloud when the timestop is over. Done, Cleric not only never got a chance to act, but never had any possibility of having a chance to act. Evocations aren't the best tools of a lv20 wizard, but you don't even have to break out the best tools to win this fight under the given conditions.

[Psyren]

Clerics are never 1v1, there is always a third party involved (deity, source philosophy, or other power.) And a truly optimized cleric will have his patron on speed-dial and have long ago made himself indispensable to the church, such that his big bad outsider buddy with divine ranks will squash any threat who doesn't have divine backup of their own.

[ryu]

Clerics are never 1v1, there is always a third party involved (deity, source philosophy, or other power.) And a truly optimized cleric will have his patron on speed-dial and have long ago made himself indispensable to the church, such that his big bad outsider buddy with divine ranks will squash any threat who doesn't have divine backup of their own.

Which is a meaningless claim as the wizard can also make himself indispensable to any god he chooses.

[eggynack]

Which is a meaningless claim as the wizard can also make himself indispensable to any god he chooses.
Or he could just create an army of ice assassins and simulacra of various kinds. He can also mind rape himself a legion of followers.

[anacalgion]

I've had discussions with a friend about a fight along these lines (actually it was with two wizards, but still), and the problem is that there's no reason for either side to leave their own personal demiplane. Mostly you can just chain gate solars at them and other generally silly things, but you should realistically never see your opponent face to face.

[Eldariel]

Things that don't matter:
- Saves (nobody should be failing saves/dying 'cause of failing saves on this level or they've seriously ****ed up their build)
- BAB (lolwut - besides, both sides can access Divine Power for 20 if they care)
- HP (if one side can damage the other, they can kill)


In other words, to the people who are clamoring Cleric's victory because of better chassis, you're barking at the wrong tree. Those things are about as important as ranks in Craft: Basketweaving.

Now, the things that do matter are of course spells. More precisely, which side can generate the greater strategic advantages. If we're assuming Cleric has Spell-domain as spontaneous domain, he can compare in the real spell access (that is to say, both have Celerities, Contingencies and such).

Miracle and domains for Time Stop, Shapechange & Disjunction largely even it up. Wizard has like Instant Refuge and such extra so he's a bit tougher to kill but like as not both parties are already immortal and the fights happen through Astral Projections, mostly for sparring sense. Cleric has trouble casting Genesis so that's a huge edge for the Wizard.


Most likely, neither side can easily find/kill the other. At the very least we're gonna see multiple Disjunctions before either side can be harmed (since both sides are immune to HP damage, ability damage, death effects, mind control, etc. and defensive caster levels are high enough that Greater Dispel Magic without extreme Dispel-optimization is useless).

The big things that matter:
- What exactly is the cheese limit? Persistent Spell can probably be acquired through some ways (Incantatrix, Spelldancer, Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer, Divine Metamagic, what-have-you). Circle Magic in Hathran/Red Wizard/Halruaan Elder/etc.? What about Dweomerkeeper and Supernatural Spell? Sanctum Spell-shenanigans?
- Initiate of Mystra? A very specific Cleric but being able to walk around in AMFs is certainly an edge, especially if the fight happens in Dead Magic. Wizard is limited to level 4 spells through Invoke Magic.
- Selective Spell? Selective Spell Antimagic Field is a pretty darn brutal defense to break through.
- Are we using classes like Recaster/Wyrm Wizard to cherrypick e.g. Sorc-only spells?
- What kind of a Wizard are we using? Dispel-focus might actually work here; if you get to +40-+50 Dispel-checks we might be talking about actual Dispelling happening if you can bypass Antimagic Field.
- I'm assuming infinite action loops and such aren't kosher. How many actions and such per round are you allowed to take through e.g. Celerity/Greater Arcane Fusion loops? What about spell slot restoration loops?
- What's the criterion for victory? Is killing opponent's Astral Projection enough? Do you have to somehow actually locate the enemy's real body and force them to be resurrected? Or do you have to actually try and cease enemy's existence in a way that's more than a mild inconvenience to them? Like, Unnaming might get the job done to a decent degree. Mindrape is really the only way to be sure. Forced aging to death by old age might work too, but still, it's a lot of hassle to stop enemy from coming back in 10 mins.

[Psyren]

Which is a meaningless claim as the wizard can also make himself indispensable to any god he chooses.

He can - if that god is sleeping at the wheel and not using his portfolio sense to know what the wizard is up to months in advance. In which case said deity is too stupid for his title and would have been absorbed by another power long ago.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wizard, at least if you restrict both classes to their native resources and don't allow them to get scrolls of the others spells.

For one, an optimized wizard can repick his entire spell list with a single swift action if he really wants to and as a standard action if he wants to do so at no expense. Cleric's can't do that, which means that however prepared the cleric is he can't be as optimized for that specific fight.

Then you have the issue that while a lot of Sor/Wiz spells are somewhere on the cleric list, most are in specific domains. It's one thing to pick up a single Domain Drought to grab Genesis one time, its another to be chugging different ones every day to get the specific spells that you want.

The idea of a buffed melee cleric is deeply flawed as the wizard will have a Selective Persistent Extended Anti-magic Field up and unless the buffs are cast inside that field then Initiate of Mystra does nothing for them and they still go away. The Persistent Extended Ironguard also means that you can't harm the wizard with metal weapons.

There are all kinds of little tricks that a wizard can pull that a cleric will find very difficult or even impossible to pull off out of native resources. I mean the wizard could spend five years on a fast time demiplane making Ice Assassin's of Great Wyrm Dragons and nesting them inside of Smokey Confinement vials before storing the final vial in his Glove of the Master Strategist only to open the fight by crushing the vial and all of the sudden dropping a thousand Great Wyrm's (or Solar's) onto the battlefield to thoroughly screw over the wizards enemies.

Then you have little things like Hide Life, which again a cleric doesn't have native access to, that renders the Wizard totally immune to death from damage.

[ryu]

He can - if that god is sleeping at the wheel and not using his portfolio sense to know what the wizard is up to months in advance. In which case said deity is too stupid for his title and would have been absorbed by another power long ago.

The thing is does the god care what the wizards ulterior motive is? The goal is to get to the point where the god offers serious legitimate help without holding back in exactly one fight in exchange for what is otherwise absolute service from the power that an optimized wizard is. I've seen worse deals offered.

[eggynack]

He can - if that god is sleeping at the wheel and not using his portfolio sense to know what the wizard is up to months in advance. In which case said deity is too stupid for his title and would have been absorbed by another power long ago.
What is the wizard up to months in advance, anyways? He could just be a helpful wizard, aligning himself with the deity's interests, perhaps in exchange for some aid from the church. I mean, it's not like this cleric would necessarily be of the same faith as our noble wizard. Hell, maybe the deity actually wants the cleric dead, and he's willing to toss some aid the wizard's way to reach that state of affairs. In conclusion, though it's not a conclusion I've thus far done anything to support, factoring in things like outside assistance makes things get very silly very fast.

[The Glyphstone]

The lesson everyone should be taking from this thread is that Tier 1 classes are silly beyond calculation.

Whoever wins, the battlefield/kingdom/planet/material plane they fight on loses.

[tadkins]

For one, an optimized wizard can repick his entire spell list with a single swift action if he really wants to and as a standard action if he wants to do so at no expense.

I'm curious, how does a wizard pull this one off?

[nedz]

Player > Build > Class

So it depends entirely on the players in question. The actual classes are irrelevant.

[eggynack]

Player > Build > Class

So it depends entirely on the players in question. The actual classes are irrelevant.
That's only really if we're not just using the forum hivemind to come up with competing tactics, and even if we're not doing that, a reasonably optimized caster is going to blow away anything in existence by that level, except for maybe another caster, which is the point of this exercise. So you see, in essence, class is the only relevant factor, because we are both the player and the build.

[Firnamai]

I'm curious, how does a wizard pull this one off?

Spell Engine
(Spell Compendium, p. 198)

[Psyren]

The thing is does the god care what the wizards ulterior motive is?

If, months from now, that wizard is going to try to kill the high priest of that deity's church, you bet your ass the deity is going to care.


What is the wizard up to months in advance, anyways? He could just be a helpful wizard, aligning himself with the deity's interests, perhaps in exchange for some aid from the church. I mean, it's not like this cleric would necessarily be of the same faith as our noble wizard. Hell, maybe the deity actually wants the cleric dead, and he's willing to toss some aid the wizard's way to reach that state of affairs. In conclusion, though it's not a conclusion I've thus far done anything to support, factoring in things like outside assistance makes things get very silly very fast.

If the deity is against the cleric then it is hopeless for him anyways and the contest is meaningless. When he prays for spells the deity will just fill all his slots with Comprehend Languages or something and he won't have any way of fighting.

The point is that you are never fighting an optimized cleric alone unless he has been abandoned, in which case he's probably going to get flattened anyway.

[eggynack]

If, months from now, that wizard is going to try to kill the high priest of that deity's church, you bet your ass the deity is going to care.



If the deity is against the cleric then it is hopeless for him anyways and the contest is meaningless. When he prays for spells the deity will just fill all his slots with Comprehend Languages or something and he won't have any way of fighting.

The point is that you are never fighting an optimized cleric alone unless he has been abandoned, in which case he's probably going to get flattened anyway.
I'm getting somewhat confused. My understanding is that Ryu's assertion was that the wizard could also get the backing of a separate god by level 20. Anyways, the wizard can pull some teamwork trickery by level 20, and I don't think it's fair to assume that the cleric will be getting some non-spell aid. The God's favor is already represented by the cleric's ever more powerful list. Ultimately, this isn't necessarily a factor in the cleric's favor, and it's not necessarily not a factor in the wizard's favor.

[Psyren]

I'm getting somewhat confused. My understanding is that Ryu's assertion was that the wizard could also get the backing of a separate god by level 20.

I know what he said; my point is that any major deity would know about this plan long before the wizard tried to set it in motion, and have ample time to put countermeasures in place. Given the ultimate threat that a epic or near-epic wizard represents, both cleric and deity would be well-advised to pull out all the stops.

If they don't go to these lengths then the Wizard wins easily. Without the deity getting involved, the wizard list and ACFs are just plain better than anything the Cleric can bring to bear, not to mention the Wizard's likely superior intelligence.



The God's favor is already represented by the cleric's ever more powerful list.

The cleric's list is not more powerful save for one solitary spell - Miracle, with which he can request his deity's involvement directly. This spell can literally do anything (as can Wish), but without the possibility of screw as long as it does not run counter to the god's wishes.

[eggynack]

The cleric's list is not more powerful save for one solitary spell - Miracle, with which he can request his deity's involvement directly. This spell can literally do anything (as can Wish), but without the possibility of screw as long as it does not run counter to the god's wishes.
I meant more powerful than not-spells, and more powerful than low level spells. Anyways, any direct deity based solution seems somewhat fiatish.

[ryu]

Why would the wizard want to kill the high priest of his deity? This is a different god than the cleric's. The wizard can afford to be a completely honest, useful, loyal bro to his deity of choice. Just for simplicity's sake he probably the enemy of whoever the cleric worships to get help from.

[Psyren]

I meant more powerful than not-spells, and more powerful than low level spells. Anyways, any direct deity based solution seems somewhat fiatish.

Of course it is, but it's totally in character for the cleric to pray for a way out, wouldn't you say? What's the point of devoting your entire existence to a super-outsider if he's going to stand idly by while you're annihilated?

(Unless that's part of your faith anyway - hi Shar! - in which case the wizard's victory is assured form the start regardless.)

[eggynack]

Of course it is, but it's totally in character for the cleric to pray for a way out, wouldn't you say? What's the point of devoting your entire existence to a super-outsider if he's going to stand idly by while you're annihilated?
It is in character to pray your way out. It's just that the result of that prayer is expressed in daily spells. Similarly, the point of devoting your entire existence to a super-outsider is because that way lies spells, but also because maybe you like your deity a whole lot. What I'm saying is, there already is mechanical representation of all of these ideas. I don't see why they should, or would, be doubly represented.

[Firechanter]

With "optimized" characters, I'd put my money on the Wizard. Clerics are awesome and versatile and everything, but they don't have quite the absurd level of gamebreaking Overkill that Wizzies do. And the battle would definitely not last longer than one round.

On a low op level however, I guess the Cleric has a more than even chance. Cuz that's where chassis still matters.

[Eldariel]

Of course it is, but it's totally in character for the cleric to pray for a way out, wouldn't you say? What's the point of devoting your entire existence to a super-outsider if he's going to stand idly by while you're annihilated?

(Unless that's part of your faith anyway - hi Shar! - in which case the wizard's victory is assured form the start regardless.)

Don't deities usually specifically act through their Clerics? I mean, deities in most settings have incentives to not directly intervene in the affairs of the mortals (their counterparts would, they break some ancient rules, reality would unravel, whatever) precisely why they have Clerics in the first place - to bring their will and power where they can't personally pass it.

All divine assistance is present in Cleric's spells: Planar Ally, Gate, Miracle, etc. It seems folly to assume the deity can intervene any more than that without being flattened by opposing deities.


Of course, we can also talk about e.g. Eberron where deities specifically are kinda metabeings and people aren't sure they even exist. Clerics get their power from somewhere but nobody knows from where.

Either way, it seems completely irrelevant to the question at hand to bring in deities at all beyond what they can do through a Cleric's spells. In basically no campaign setting ever have deities had the ability to hoop in to save their Clerics/servants in the hour of peril, unless said creature is in the deity's own personal realm. The point of praying to these superbeings is to get the awesome powers that are the Cleric-class after all (if praying to superbeings is required in the given campaign setting - if not, it's purely optional and shouldn't factor in either way).

[nedz]

That's only really if we're not just using the forum hivemind to come up with competing tactics, and even if we're not doing that, a reasonably optimized caster is going to blow away anything in existence by that level, except for maybe another caster, which is the point of this exercise. So you see, in essence, class is the only relevant factor, because we are both the player and the build.

Then it's down to who wins initiative; but they still have to out think the other guy's defences. The problem here is that there are so many tactics and counter tactics that there are a large number of local maxima to this question. In many of these regions both casters cancel each other out and it comes down to BAB and HP :smallsigh:

[Eldariel]

Then it's down to who wins initiative; but they still have to out think the other guy's defences. The problem here is that there are so many tactics and counter tactics that there are a large number of local maxima to this question. In many of these regions both casters cancel each other out and it comes down to BAB and HP :smallsigh:

Except both sides are immune to damage and have 20 BAB if they feel like it, so I can't see how it'd matter. Having 1000 more ranks in Craft: Basketweaving than the other doesn't constitute an advantage.

[Beardbarian]

The question i old and the answer is old too
It's a draw until dices are rolled

[CombatOwl]

Cleric will win, both prepared, Cleric has better meta (which is what casters are all about), armour, double the hitdie, better casting stat and domain powers. Wizard just has better spell selection high level but wont pack the punch fast enough when it cant take any at all.

Depends entirely on what domains the cleric picked. Wizards have better ranged disabling spells. Icy Prison vs. low-reflex cleric? Unless that cleric had the foresight to make himself immune to cold, he's probably going to die from a heightened icy prison.

Wizards can hammer home the cleric's worst save--clerics have issues doing the same in reverse since most of them rely on touch.

If both of them start with no enhancements at 60ft range... it's going to boil down to who wins initiative and whether someone gets a lucky nat 20 on their save. If greater than 60ft, the wizard has a huge leg up.

[ahenobarbi]

Ah, sorry, missed that part. Level 20, but both characters have known it would come to this since level 10 or so.

The world is destroyed by them making preparations long before the duel takes place.

[AWiz_Abroad]

Current vote toll (including my +1 for wizard)

Wizard 7
Cleric 5

[Nightraiderx]

It completely depends what builds are allowed for this.
One of the upper hands Cleric's can get is stacking turn undead (and variants)
With a few dips and using the right race (dragonblood and incarnum) A cleric can obtain 4/5 turning pools (Azurin incarnum turning, dragonblooded rebuke dragon, destroy undead from ravenloft, turn undead from the sun domain/ prestiege class dip). A cleric can set up alot of immunities without metamagic (energy immunity is a 6th lvl spell for clerics that lasts 24 hours, can ward against death effects, pacts of series). Even if a wizard uses timestop, he can't dispel the clerics buffs until after, even a searing spell blast effect wont kill the cleric unless the wizard in real time dispel's the cleric's delay death. That's where the anti-mage turning feats come into play, a cleric/dweomerkeeper with spontaneous dispel/greater dispel can at least defend against a wizard.

If a wizards gets one of his infinite loop cheese (taint wizard cheese) then the cleric is helpless.

In the end two things ultimately matter, action economy and who has the higher CL and a wizard even without using too much cheese can up his caster level significantly. a spontanous divination wizard/ultimate magus will have rediculous CL.

It depends how much the wizard is being restricted by cheese-wise otherwise the wizard will win.

[Eldariel]

It completely depends what builds are allowed for this.
One of the upper hands Cleric's can get is stacking turn undead (and variants)
With a few dips and using the right race (dragonblood and incarnum) A cleric can obtain 4/5 turning pools (Azurin incarnum turning, dragonblooded rebuke dragon, destroy undead from ravenloft, turn undead from the sun domain/ prestiege class dip). A cleric can set up alot of immunities without metamagic (energy immunity is a 6th lvl spell for clerics that lasts 24 hours, can ward against death effects, pacts of series). Even if a wizard uses timestop, he can't dispel the clerics buffs until after, even a searing spell blast effect wont kill the cleric unless the wizard in real time dispel's the cleric's delay death. That's where the anti-mage turning feats come into play, a cleric/dweomerkeeper with spontaneous dispel/greater dispel can at least defend against a wizard.

If a wizards gets one of his infinite loop cheese (taint wizard cheese) then the cleric is helpless.

In the end two things ultimately matter, action economy and who has the higher CL and a wizard even without using too much cheese can up his caster level significantly. a spontanous divination wizard/ultimate magus will have rediculous CL.

It depends how much the wizard is being restricted by cheese-wise otherwise the wizard will win.

Don't forget Cleric's Greater Consumptive Field, Ankh of Ascension, easy access to Orange Prism Ioun Stone & Divine Spell Power. Cleric should easily get caster level around 60-70 without looping anything.

Also, most Wizard loops are available to Cleric through Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, Miracle & Shapechange so both of them can play that game.

[Nightraiderx]

Don't forget Cleric's Greater Consumptive Field, Ankh of Ascension, easy access to Orange Prism Ioun Stone & Divine Spell Power. Cleric should easily get caster level around 60-70 without looping anything.

Also, most Wizard loops are available to Cleric through Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, Miracle & Shapechange so both of them can play that game.

I don't play too many high level clerics that are casters, usually they are melee brutes with persisting immunities. I hear more about the wizard CL boosters.
Although I can think of an interesting Cleric Build that has Wis centric turning and through the prestiege paladin 2 dip can have wisdom mod to all his turning pools as well as having wisdom to all his saves. Grab swift blessing and prepare swift action dispel magic's through your weapon and smack the antimagic field away. I'd dip prestiege paladin for the serenity wis to turning pools.

[TrollCapAmerica]

I would favor Wizard slightly in this although the limitations on cheese are an important factor.Clerics get the ability to curbstomp just about anything in the universe sure but the Wizard has the ability to turn a fistfight into a chess match [even without godly optimization]

[Psyren]

It is in character to pray your way out. It's just that the result of that prayer is expressed in daily spells. Similarly, the point of devoting your entire existence to a super-outsider is because that way lies spells, but also because maybe you like your deity a whole lot. What I'm saying is, there already is mechanical representation of all of these ideas. I don't see why they should, or would, be doubly represented.

Simply put, because the spells aren't enough - not to face off against an optimized wizard. So either the deity gets involved or he loses his top cleric. Depending on the deity he may be okay with that, or he may not.

Without divine intervention the cleric loses, plain and simple.

[AstralFire]

Basically all 1v1 optimized cage matches come down to initiative rocket tag. And if it's not a cage match, Wizard.

[Psyren]

Thing is though, the wizard just plain wins initiative by being shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise, having Foresight/Celerity/Time Stop etc. There is no "tag."

So again, if the deity doesn't step in, the cleric loses.

[Eldariel]

Thing is though, the wizard just plain wins initiative by being shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise, having Foresight/Celerity/Time Stop etc. There is no "tag."

So again, if the deity doesn't step in, the cleric loses.

Cleric can do all that too tho, unless we have some artificial restrictions in place. Anyspell and Greater Anyspell get an easy access to all Wizard-spells of level 5 or lower and Miracle covers level 7-. Rest must be covered with Domains. You can customize Domains (Customize Domain [DR325] feat) though all of those spells are in normal Domains and you can get a whole bundle of Domains with just few key dips (there's also a spell to temporarily open a Domain).

Again, it's just a matter of how far we want to pull the Cleric; with enough work he can do almost everything the Wizard can and has a few tricks of his own that are somewhat difficult for the Wizard to reproduce. And then, both of them also have access to Simulacrums, Gate, Animate Dead (Neutral/Evil Cleric of course would have access to Rebuke for what it's worth), you see. Which of course leads to a potentially massive horde of underlings of various kinds.


There's a reason the stipulation is usually "level 9 spells"; it doesn't really matter that much where you get them from, the capability to acquire cross-class spells is there for all the Tier 1 casters one way or another. Some have more than the others but that doesn't really matter unless material is restricted.

Also, Cleric with an AMF and all his buffs on isn't a trivial challenge for a Wizard to kill (just like a Wizard is far from a trivial challenge for a Cleric to beat). Both sides have Contingency-like spells available (Wizard has more but that isn't that material) and both are probably quite close to invulnerable with their buffs on, if they so desire to be. As such, to actually defeat the other, some of the buffs have to be defeated, which is quite difficult against a target protected by AMF, Contingency and such.

People are so quick to call this one way or another; it seems they don't understand the capabilities of the combatants here. It seems much more likely to me that it's a draw with a slight edge to the Wizard if they do manage to come up with means to defeat the defenses (the few spells that are hard for a Cleric to replicate, such as Genesis, are fairly strong while Cleric's unique spells aren't quite so). Note that most loops in the game are available to either class so bringing those in is again mutually assured destruction.

[Big Fau]

If, months from now, that wizard is going to try to kill the high priest of that deity's church, you bet your ass the deity is going to care.

Why would he? Clerics have ways to revive themselves upon death; as long as the Wizard doesn't hit the Cleric with a Dispel or Thinaun weapon the Cleric just gets up once the fight is over (since those spells deprive the Cleric of his spells/day with the exception of Miracle/True Rez).

[Nightraiderx]

Dragon Magazine was banned, so there goes the "customized domain."
Maybe it would be best to look at pure cleric and pure wizard 20 and see what feats they could use to each of their advantage. I think the wizard has a slight edge of versatility. I like clerics, but I think they have to work much harder at creating more win conditions than the wizard can obtain.

Edit: A wizard can spam more spells due to certain spells that enable, and a wizard would aim for a disjunction.

[ahenobarbi]

Current vote toll (including my +1 for wizard)

Wizard 7
Cleric 5

Wizard: 7
Cleric: 5
Undetermined: 1

Most likely both wouldn't engage in combat themselves but would send minions to kill the opponent die in vain and use remaining power to protect themselves from enemy minions (befriending a deity and moving in would be a pretty good start).

Even if they were forced to start the combat alone, right next to each other it wouldn't change much.

If you prevented them from using fast travel (planeshift teleport etc.) they stop to sound like optimized T1's and the fight probably would end (because combatants ability has been taken away) but the result is hard to predict.

Then probably wizard would win. It can cast spontaneously (Uncanny Foresight) from both lists (Rainbow Servant), gets more spell slots (domain wizard + elven generalist), divine metamagic (Sacred Exorcist + Alternate Spell Source slightly worse than cleric) and room for some more tricks.

Cleric has hard time getting all wizard spells. It more bab, hp and better saves but I'd be very surprised if any of that mattered. Better divine metamagic won't be enough to balance wizard's access to wider range of spells (I don't recall any ways for cleric to actually get all of them) and higher quantity (as Incantantrix is banned I suppose DMM:persist and quicken are banned too).


Cleric can do all that too tho, unless we have some artificial restrictions in place. Anyspell and Greater Anyspell get an easy access to all Wizard-spells of level 5 or lower and Miracle covers level 7-. Rest must be covered with Domains. You can customize Domains (Customize Domain [DR325] feat) though all of those spells are in normal Domains and you can get a whole bundle of Domains with just few key dips (there's also a spell to temporarily open a Domain).

Again, it's just a matter of how far we want to pull the Cleric; with enough work he can do almost everything the Wizard can and has a few tricks of his own that are somewhat difficult for the Wizard to reproduce. And then, both of them also have access to Simulacrums, Gate, Animate Dead (Neutral/Evil Cleric of course would have access to Rebuke for what it's worth), you see. Which of course leads to a potentially massive horde of underlings of various kinds.


There's a reason the stipulation is usually "level 9 spells"; it doesn't really matter that much where you get them from, the capability to acquire cross-class spells is there for all the Tier 1 casters one way or another. Some have more than the others but that doesn't really matter unless material is restricted.

Also, Cleric with an AMF and all his buffs on isn't a trivial challenge for a Wizard to kill (just like a Wizard is far from a trivial challenge for a Cleric to beat). Both sides have Contingency-like spells available (Wizard has more but that isn't that material) and both are probably quite close to invulnerable with their buffs on, if they so desire to be. As such, to actually defeat the other, some of the buffs have to be defeated, which is quite difficult against a target protected by AMF, Contingency and such.

People are so quick to call this one way or another; it seems they don't understand the capabilities of the combatants here. It seems much more likely to me that it's a draw with a slight edge to the Wizard if they do manage to come up with means to defeat the defenses (the few spells that are hard for a Cleric to replicate, such as Genesis, are fairly strong while Cleric's unique spells aren't quite so). Note that most loops in the game are available to either class so bringing those in is again mutually assured destruction.

++

[Psyren]

Cleric can do all that too tho, unless we have some artificial restrictions in place.

There are a grand total of TWO domains with Shapechange (Animal and Scalykind) and aside from that great spell they are otherwise very mediocre choices. It's not something I'd assume for a contest like this; what if the Cleric in question doesn't worship a nature deity? Or are you saying that only nature-worshiping clerics can beat wizards?

Hordes of underlings are pointless - for starters, now you are alignment-locking the cleric (he can't animate squat if he's good; the wizard has no such restriction) and besides which, no amount of zombies and skeletons are going to be a decent challenge for a Wizard 20.

Anyspell is no advantage at all - an optimized wizard can already cast anything on his list, and do so without level limits or needing another specific domain (Spells.)



People are so quick to call this one way or another; it seems they don't understand the capabilities of the combatants here.

I understand them just fine; what you are failing to understand is how much more difficult it is to make Schrodinger's Cleric than it is Schrodinger's Wizard. A wizard optimized far enough can, as Tippy said, cast every spell on his list spontaneously and so have the perfect counter for every single strategy the Cleric could come up with. Meanwhile the Cleric is hobbled by alignment and domain restrictions up the arse, and even if you somehow bypass all of those he still won't have the same spell access as the wizard - some things will stay just plain out of his reach.

His only true advantage, as even you yourself mentioned, is Miracle - which comes right back to what *I* said about the deity needing to get involved or he is toast.

[Eldariel]

There are a grand total of TWO domains with Shapechange (Animal and Scalykind) and aside from that great spell they are otherwise very mediocre choices. It's not something I'd assume for a contest like this; what if the Cleric in question doesn't worship a nature deity? Or are you saying that only nature-worshiping clerics can beat wizards?

Hordes of underlings are pointless - for starters, now you are alignment-locking the cleric (he can't animate squat if he's good; the wizard has no such restriction) and besides which, no amount of zombies and skeletons are going to be a decent challenge for a Wizard 20.

Both of 'em have hordes of angels/devils/whatever they want tho.


Anyspell is no advantage at all - an optimized wizard can already cast anything on his list, and do so without level limits or needing another specific domain (Spells.)

Of course. But it means the gap isn't as wide as many would like to make it out to be.


I understand them just fine; what you are failing to understand is how much more difficult it is to make Schrodinger's Cleric than it is Schrodinger's Wizard. A wizard optimized far enough can, as Tippy said, cast every spell on his list spontaneously and so have the perfect counter for every single strategy the Cleric could come up with. Meanwhile the Cleric is hobbled by alignment and domain restrictions up the arse, and even if you somehow bypass all of those he still won't have the same spell access as the wizard - some things will stay just plain out of his reach.

Alignment restrictions and deity restrictions and what-have-you-restrictions should just fly outta the window, they're not useful for measuring the extent of power of a class on a theoretical basis.


His only true advantage, as even you yourself mentioned, is Miracle - which comes right back to what *I* said about the deity needing to get involved or he is toast.

Miracle can even be cast by Clerics of ideals or Eberronian Clerics or whatever. This whole "deity must get involved"-stuff is niche, and completely irrelevant.

Do you contest that Initiate of Mystra would bestow an advantage, for instance? It's a feat, not one Wizard can take. Cleric can also take DMM if we're going with the base class setup while the Wizard can't persist spells for free without PRCs (he's looking at like +3 levels at least even burning a bunch of feats on it). Cleric has way easier time buffing caster level than a Wizard.

Yes, Cleric needs to jump through more hoops to get some of the key spells but that doesn't necessarily mean the Wizard wins by default. If the Cleric is good enough at hoop-jumping, he has a decent shot; Wizard has some hoops to jump through too depending on the exact restrictions we're dealing with.

[Psyren]

So is the contest "Cleric of Mystra vs. Wizard?" Because I didn't see that in the OP. Is the contest taking place in Faerun?

The hordes of angels and whatnot don't matter if the Wizard goes first, and he will.

And yes, the deity does matter. Even if you're a cleric of a cause or whatever, all that means is that some like-minded entity answers your Miracle instead. Miracle flat-out tells you that it is not like other spells - you are not the one making things happen. So using it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "one-on-one fight" - there is always a third party involved.

[Eldariel]

So is the contest "Cleric of Mystra vs. Wizard?"

It's Optimized Cleric vs. Optimized Wizard. The only sensible level is the most optimized Cleric and Wizard we can build within the constraints of the challenge. If that happens to be a Cleric of Mystra, then that's what we'll use. Fluff is irrelevant. Power is all that matters for a comparison like this.

[Psyren]

But a Cleric of Mystra can't get Shapechange, because she doesn't offer Animal or Scalykind. So unless they have access to each other's scrolls or other items then the Wizard has a clear advantage.

[ahenobarbi]

Do you contest that Initiate of Mystra would bestow an advantage, for instance? It's a feat, not one Wizard can take.

It's useful mostly as Disjunction protection. Definitely an advantage but not a big one.


Cleric can also take DMM if we're going with the base class setup while the Wizard can't persist spells for free without PRCs (he's looking at like +3 levels at least even burning a bunch of feats on it). Cleric has way easier time buffing caster level than a Wizard.

Cleric won't persist that much either (without nightstacks and PrCs). Not that it matters.


Wizard has some hoops to jump through too depending on the exact restrictions we're dealing with.

Yes. The restrictions can change the outcome (and IMHO are needed to even have an outcome).

[Eldariel]

But a Cleric of Mystra can't get Shapechange, because she doesn't offer Animal or Scalykind. So unless they have access to each other's scrolls or other items then the Wizard has a clear advantage.

Eh, take Heretic of Faith [Power of Faerun] then.

[Psyren]

Eh, take Heretic of Faith [Power of Faerun] then.

You mean the one that explicitly requires DM approval, making it useless for TO?

[ryu]

Who needs disjunction protection? Both sides can just buy spell component pouches and pull arbitrarily large amounts of artifacts out of them. I honestly don't understand why people even bring up that spell in this kind of optimization setting. It's rendered completely useless by one of the cheapest items in the game.

[nedz]

Who needs disjunction protection? Both sides can just buy spell component pouches and pull arbitrarily large amounts of artifacts out of them. I honestly don't understand why people even bring up that spell in this kind of optimization setting. It's rendered completely useless by one of the cheapest items in the game.

Because drawing artefacts out of your wazoo is bad form, because otherwise "I'll have 10 Decks of Many Things from which I've previously drawn The Fates once from each" etc. It just doesn't reflect upon the classes under scrutiny. A Monk could do this, even without UMD.

[Eldariel]

You mean the one that explicitly requires DM approval, making it useless for TO?

Fine, get a Domain Staff [Complete Champion] then. UMD the requirement if necessary; you have divine slots so it's effectively a permanent addition anyways.

[ryu]

Because drawing artefacts out of your wazoo is bad form, because otherwise "I'll have 10 Decks of Many Things from which I've previously drawn The Fates once from each" etc. It just doesn't reflect upon the classes under scrutiny. A Monk could do this, even without UMD.

The fact that even a monk can say no to to this spell is exactly the sort of reason why I don't consider it very relevant to high level play. It's a spell that gets no-sold by literally anyone who wants to at level one.

[Psyren]

Fine, get a Domain Staff [Complete Champion] then. UMD the requirement if necessary; you have divine slots so it's effectively a permanent addition anyways.

There is no Animal domain staff listed - which means you must create one yourself. Except you can't, because you don't have access to the animal domain spells without the very staff that you're trying to make. So here too you are involving a third party in the "one-on-one" competition to make your staff for you. Meanwhile the Wizard can craft all his gear for this contest solo.

[ddude987]

If the fight is truly 1v1, considering the Cleric has a permanent anti magic field surrounding them, and they can cast spells, the cleric walks up to the wizard and grapples him or just chops him in two. The anti magic field negates the silliness of things like greater blinking, invisibility, greater mirror image, and all the other fun miss chance abilities. Of course, the wizard could disjunction the amf, but OP said spells that are normally banned are not allowed, and I've seen disjunction banned many a time.

On top of that, clerics (via) dwermokeeper (spelling?) can cast wish with no cost, they can do any of the wizards shenanigans as well.

If the fight moves to something like the-wizard-mindraped-everyone-and-has-a-big-army, then the cleric can probably do similar tricks.

[ahenobarbi]

Who needs disjunction protection? Both sides can just buy spell component pouches and pull arbitrarily large amounts of artifacts out of them. I honestly don't understand why people even bring up that spell in this kind of optimization setting. It's rendered completely useless by one of the cheapest items in the game.


Because drawing artefacts out of your wazoo is bad form, because otherwise "I'll have 10 Decks of Many Things from which I've previously drawn The Fates once from each" etc. It just doesn't reflect upon the classes under scrutiny. A Monk could do this, even without UMD.


The fact that even a monk can say no to to this spell is exactly the sort of reason why I don't consider it very relevant to high level play. It's a spell that gets no-sold by literally anyone who wants to at level one.

Objection!
Firstly you only have some artifacts in your component pouch, you don't get to decide what (if anything) they do. So no pulling Decks of Many things from your component pouch.
Secondly having artifacts doesn't protect you from from being affected by Disjunction. It merely creates chance of forcing DC25 will save on "you" (or loose all spell casting abilities). There are ways around that (simplest is having someone else fire disjunction).

[Psyren]

AMF won't stop Searing Twinmaxed Fell Drain Orbs of Fire. Nor even simpler things like Wall of Force or Deadly Lahar.

[ryu]

If the fight is truly 1v1, considering the Cleric has a permanent anti magic field surrounding them, and they can cast spells, the cleric walks up to the wizard and grapples him or just chops him in two. The anti magic field negates the silliness of things like greater blinking, invisibility, greater mirror image, and all the other fun miss chance abilities. Of course, the wizard could disjunction the amf, but OP said spells that are normally banned are not allowed, and I've seen disjunction banned many a time.

On top of that, clerics (via) dwermokeeper (spelling?) can cast wish with no cost, they can do any of the wizards shenanigans as well.

If the fight moves to something like the-wizard-mindraped-everyone-and-has-a-big-army, then the cleric can probably do similar tricks.

How is your cleric reliably entering melee range? That's not something that's guaranteed by a long shot.

[ddude987]

How is your cleric reliably entering melee range? That's not something that's guaranteed by a long shot.

OP said the players start 40' apart. If the wizard wants to teleport away and have some fun, the cleric could do the same. Of course, this doesn't speak to who would win...

[Kaeso]

I'm no expert optimizer, but if the cleric wins initiative and manages to cast anti-magic field, even without initiate of mystra, the battle is already over, right? A cleric without magic is a slightly weaker fighter without bonus feat and slightly worse weapons (assuming he doesn't have the war domain), while a wizard without spells is just a lowly commoner. In that circumstance, both sides have been robbed of their greatest advantage, but the cleric still has the good ol' "whack 'em with a pointy stick" strategy to fall back on.

[Eldariel]

There is no Animal domain staff listed - which means you must create one yourself. Except you can't, because you don't have access to the animal domain spells without the very staff that you're trying to make. So here too you are involving a third party in the "one-on-one" competition to make your staff for you. Meanwhile the Wizard can craft all his gear for this contest solo.

Last I checked you didn't need to be able to craft all your items to use WBL. I don't get this 3rd party objection of yours. Character has WBL, doesn't matter who made the stuff, if it's existing item and you can afford it, you can have it. Character might or might not have deities, they're not going to exist or be involved in the fight or whatever. The fight itself is between these two characters alone, as per stipulations. Character creation rules should be unaltered from the DMG rules for creating level X characters.

It's not a listed staff but the page specifically says "A small selection of domain staffs is presented here, and any other domain staff can easily be created. All domain staffs have the same price, item level, body slot, caster level, aura strength, activation, weight, and cost to create. The prerequisites include Craft Staff and access to all spells of the selected domain."


If the fight is truly 1v1, considering the Cleric has a permanent anti magic field surrounding them, and they can cast spells, the cleric walks up to the wizard and grapples him or just chops him in two. The anti magic field negates the silliness of things like greater blinking, invisibility, greater mirror image, and all the other fun miss chance abilities. Of course, the wizard could disjunction the amf, but OP said spells that are normally banned are not allowed, and I've seen disjunction banned many a time.

On top of that, clerics (via) dwermokeeper (spelling?) can cast wish with no cost, they can do any of the wizards shenanigans as well.

If the fight moves to something like the-wizard-mindraped-everyone-and-has-a-big-army, then the cleric can probably do similar tricks.


I'm no expert optimizer, but if the cleric wins initiative and manages to cast anti-magic field, even without initiate of mystra, the battle is already over, right? A cleric without magic is a slightly weaker fighter without bonus feat and slightly worse weapons (assuming he doesn't have the war domain), while a wizard without spells is just a lowly commoner. In that circumstance, both sides have been robbed of their greatest advantage, but the cleric still has the good ol' "whack 'em with a pointy stick" strategy to fall back on.

If he can get next to the Wizard, the Wizard doesn't have his tinfoil hat/Contingency/whatever protecting him, he's facing only the Wizard, the Wizard didn't use Celerity, the Wizard didn't use Invoke Magic, the Wizard didn't trigger his Instant Refuge, they're aware of each other, etc. then yes. So probably not.

[ryu]

I'm no expert optimizer, but if the cleric wins initiative and manages to cast anti-magic field, even without initiate of mystra, the battle is already over, right? A cleric without magic is a slightly weaker fighter without bonus feat and slightly worse weapons (assuming he doesn't have the war domain), while a wizard without spells is just a lowly commoner. In that circumstance, both sides have been robbed of their greatest advantage, but the cleric still has the good ol' "whack 'em with a pointy stick" strategy to fall back on.

Tinfoil hat trick. Wizards care nothing about anitmagic fields. Are you familiar with the shorthand used or should I explain it?

[Psyren]

Last I checked you didn't need to be able to craft all your items to use WBL. I don't get this 3rd party objection of yours. Character has WBL, doesn't matter who made the stuff, if it's existing item and you can afford it, you can have it.

"Existing item" = "printed in a sourcebook" and Animal Domain Staff is not. It explicitly says you have to make any that are not listed, as you yourself quoted:



It's not a listed staff but the page specifically says "A small selection of domain staffs is presented here, and any other domain staff can easily be created. All domain staffs have the same price, item level, body slot, caster level, aura strength, activation, weight, and cost to create. The prerequisites include Craft Staff and access to all spells of the selected domain."

Bold mine. It has to be created, and either you are doing it (which you can't) or someone else is doing it for you (which violates the contest.)

Yeah all characters get WBL, but since you need WBL even to make your own gear that is understandable.

[AMFV]

"Existing item" = "printed in a sourcebook" and Animal Domain Staff is not. It explicitly says you have to make any that are not listed, as you yourself quoted:



Bold mine. It has to be created, and either you are doing it (which you can't) or someone else is doing it for you (which violates the contest.)

Yeah all characters get WBL, but since you need WBL even to make your own gear that is understandable.

There is no rule that you can't have somebody craft stuff for you beforehand. I mean if you get time to buff you could even planar bind something to craft it for you.

It just generally falls down to which dirty trick you use. As a sidenote you can DMM Persist Time Stop... Meaning that you could summon a near infinite volume of critters. So if you have initiative there's an easy win button that doesn't involve a deity and isn't a trick that the wizard can replicate. Of course you'd have to be Undead, so as to let the several years you spent summoning creatures not affect your lifespan, but then you unleash a near infinite volume of summons when the spell runs out.

[ryu]

"Existing item" = "printed in a sourcebook" and Animal Domain Staff is not. It explicitly says you have to make any that are not listed, as you yourself quoted:



Bold mine. It has to be created, and either you are doing it (which you can't) or someone else is doing it for you (which violates the contest.)

Yeah all characters get WBL, but since you need WBL even to make your own gear that is understandable.

Miracle to replicate wish which in turn can bring magical items into existence even if you have no item creation feats. This is why Tippy regularly points out WBL as a thing demarcating how much magical stuff you can have on your person before Bad Things happen in his worlds. There's also another category he has for interesting/fluffy items that don't have much real mechanical purpose and additional allowance for artificers if I'm remembering his ways properly. If we're assuming tippyverse tricks this seems the most logical conclusion.

[Kaeso]

Tinfoil hat trick. Wizards care nothing about anitmagic fields. Are you familiar with the shorthand used or should I explain it?

Could you explain it or direct me to a post that explains it? This is the first time I've heard the term "tinfoil technique".:smallconfused:

[ahenobarbi]

If the fight is truly 1v1, considering the Cleric has a permanent anti magic field surrounding them, and they can cast spells, the cleric walks up to the wizard and grapples him or just chops him in two. The anti magic field negates the silliness of things like greater blinking, invisibility, greater mirror image, and all the other fun miss chance abilities.

But it doesn't negate Twinned Maximized Empowered Searing Repeating Orb of Fire. Or Quickened Dimension Door. Or give you ability to actually get close to the wizard.


On top of that, clerics (via) dwermokeeper (spelling?) can cast wish with no cost, they can do any of the wizards shenanigans as well.

Not really.

Free wishes are just one of ways to break WBL. In showdown they're no different from regular wishes.

Gray Elf Wizard, Domain Wizard, Elven Generalist 5 / Rainbow Servant 10 / 5 whatever (+2 wizard casting levels).

With uncanny forethought feat gets fully spontaneous casting from whole cleric list and whatever wizard spells it knows. And has plenty resources left to get some other tricks( like adding Adept 1/Sacred Exorcist 1, Alternate Spell Source, Divine Metamagic(Persist)(+prereqs)). Show me a cleric build that actually gets access to all wizard spells.


If the fight moves to something like the-wizard-mindraped-everyone-and-has-a-big-army, then the cleric can probably do similar tricks.

Yes.

[AMFV]

But it doesn't negate Twinned Maximized Empowered Searing Repeating Orb of Fire. Or Quickened Dimension Door. Or give you ability to actually get close to the wizard.



Not really.

Free wishes are just one of ways to break WBL. In showdown they're no different from regular wishes.

Gray Elf Wizard, Domain Wizard, Elven Generalist 5 / Rainbow Servant 10 / 5 whatever (+2 wizard casting levels).

With uncanny forethought feat gets fully spontaneous casting from whole cleric list and whatever wizard spells it knows. And has plenty resources left to get some other tricks( like adding Adept 1/Sacred Exorcist 1, Alternate Spell Source, Divine Metamagic(Persist)(+prereqs)). Show me a cleric build that actually gets access to all wizard spells.




Dragon is out, ergo so is alternate spell source. You could potentially use Southern Magician, but that is setting specific. The problem with these sorts of contests are that at a certain point it becomes whoever is willing to do the dirty trick first, and that's hard to beat.

I would say it would come to individual player optimization levels. Whichever player is the better optimizer would win out in the end. I think your twinned maximized spell is pretty swell. But it wouldn't be the DMM persist Time Stop trick, not even a little bit.

While the second build could replicate this, once we start allowing prestige classes it is a completely different ball game, with the cleric potentially having tons of spells as SLAs and various ways to get around AMFs that Wizards don't, so it would be equally possible to cheese out the cleric. The problem is that TO is a solved problem. Pun-Pun has already won, and anything that can't literally do everything is by definition suboptimal.

[Eldariel]

Bold mine. It has to be created, and either you are doing it (which you can't) or someone else is doing it for you (which violates the contest.)

Eh, by that logic Wands and Scrolls only exist if explicitly listed (so none exist for non-core spells which can make it hard for Wizard to learn non-core spells). We're not talking item creation guidelines here; the book says it lists a small number of Domain Staves but any can be created by the same rules.

Domains are a closed category like spells, so I don't see any reason we shouldn't treat them the same as Wands/Scrolls and assume they exist for every individual in the class without it having to be explicitly spelled out. That said, you can always Gate Wish for stuff if you really need a specific magic item.


While the second build could replicate this, once we start allowing prestige classes it is a completely different ball game, with the cleric potentially having tons of spells as SLAs and various ways to get around AMFs that Wizards don't, so it would be equally possible to cheese out the cleric. The problem is that TO is a solved problem. Pun-Pun has already won, and anything that can't literally do everything is by definition suboptimal.

That's TO for max power tho; TO for max power within restrictions is a different animal (both classes can Punpun it up relatively easily, of course, but since that falls on the other side of unrestricted loops/limitless abilities, it's usually banned for these kinds of comparisons - same with infinite loops in general, the game just doesn't really function with them so they kinda have to be banned for the comparison to be possible).

[Psyren]

There is no rule that you can't have somebody craft stuff for you beforehand.

If someone other than you is doing the crafting how is it 1v1?


Miracle to replicate wish

Gonna stop you there as any use of Miracle, especially one that replicates a spell above 7th, is basically getting your deity involved as I said before.


Eh, by that logic Wands and Scrolls only exist if explicitly listed (so none exist for non-core spells which can make it hard for Wizard to learn non-core spells).

Wizards get free spells on level up so scrolls of non-core spells are not needed. With the right build they can get 6 free spells per level without any outside help.

[eggynack]

Could you explain it or direct me to a post that explains it? This is the first time I've heard the term "tinfoil technique".:smallconfused:
You get a tinfoil cone that's big enough to surround your entire body, and cast shrink item on it to turn it into a hat. When you enter an AMF, shrink item is turned off, the hat becomes a cone, the emanation is blocked, and you get some room to maneuver.



Gonna stop you there as any use of Miracle, especially one that replicates a spell above 7th, is basically getting your deity involved as I said before.
Well, yeah. Just like anything else a cleric does. Miracle just accomplishes those things in a non-fiat way, and is thus fair game. Granted, non-listed uses of miracle do fall back on fiat, but if you are just replicating normal spell effects, things should be fine. So, I think I agree in this instance, but I disagree with your opposition to miracle in general.

[Kaeso]

You get a tinfoil cone that's big enough to surround your entire body, and cast shrink item on it to turn it into a hat. When you enter an AMF, shrink item is turned off, the hat becomes a cone, the emanation is blocked, and you get some room to maneuver.

Well, that's silly. Is it confirmed that tinfoil blocks the anti magic field, or is this just speculation?

[Eldariel]

Wizards get free spells on level up so scrolls of non-core spells are not needed. With the right build they can get 6 free spells per level without any outside help.

That Wizard would waste useful character resources on irrelevancies tho; if we're truly to pimp out a Wizard to the maximum, Collegiate Wizard shouldn't clog the feat slots (unless, I suppose, Dark Chaos Shuffle or Limited Reformation or some such is on the table to get rid of it after getting the slots in which case it's a nice free bonus that I can totally get behind).


Well, that's silly. Is it confirmed that tinfoil blocks the anti magic field, or is this just speculation?

Tinfoil is solid, solid objects block line of effect.

[ryu]

Could you explain it or direct me to a post that explains it? This is the first time I've heard the term "tinfoil technique".:smallconfused:

Think creation of cone or dome made form lead/really strong metal which is then shrunken permanently to a comfortable wearing size. Anti magic field hits you? Your hat expands to encompass your square and line of effect to the emanation is blocked. You are no longer within the field and can magic as you please. A smart magician can nest these things by shrinking them to smaller sizes within the largest one worn to be safe from multiple AMFs before having to make more.

[AMFV]

If someone other than you is doing the crafting how is it 1v1?



So we are banning summoning then? Since that was the methodology I suggested when I also suggested a way to summon infinite folks. Also Shapechange really isn't worth it in the long run, not when I can stop time forever and do whatever I want. I could find every scroll of Shapechange ever and then just use UMD till I had a success then let the spell drop.

I mean literally my cleric has all the time in the world. In fact I would contingency my persistent time stop to the start of combat, thusly making it unstoppable, and then I don't even have to win initiative. Then I can research spells, in my time stopped bubble. Craft, do literally anything, since I have infinite time.

[eggynack]

Well, that's silly. Is it confirmed that tinfoil blocks the anti magic field, or is this just speculation?
AMF is an emanation, and thus, "It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin." Thus, it's fair game.

[ahenobarbi]

There is no rule that you can't have somebody craft stuff for you beforehand. I mean if you get time to buff you could even planar bind something to craft it for you.

It just generally falls down to which dirty trick you use. As a sidenote you can DMM Persist Time Stop... Meaning that you could summon a near infinite volume of critters. So if you have initiative there's an easy win button that doesn't involve a deity and isn't a trick that the wizard can replicate. Of course you'd have to be Undead, so as to let the several years you spent summoning creatures not affect your lifespan, but then you unleash a near infinite volume of summons when the spell runs out.

Wrong. Cleric can prepare spells at specific time of a day so unless you are lucky and the fight takes place at that time you are unable to memorize new spells.

And wizard has access to the very same trick.

And if we allow minion-mancy there should be stalemate without any of them ever engaging in combat personally.


Could you explain it or direct me to a post that explains it? This is the first time I've heard the term "tinfoil technique".:smallconfused:

You make a big lead cone, cast shrink item on it and wear as a hat. When you walk into Antimagic field (or something similar) shrink item stops working, hat becomes huge metal cone again and separates you from source of AMF. As a result AMF doesn't affect you.

[Psyren]

Even a "non-fiat Miracle" is fiat in a way since you are asking your deity to do the listed effect for you. But yeah, for the purposes of this contest I could say that Miracle to do the non-XP stuff could be okay.

But if you're going to go outside that, you may as well have the cleric say "Miracle: Hey Mystra, beat up that wizard for me," pay 5000 xp, and sit back with a cool lemonade while she takes over.


So we are banning summoning then?

Sure, why not? It's not necessary for either party, though this too hurts the cleric more.


That Wizard would waste useful character resources on irrelevancies tho; if we're truly to pimp out a Wizard to the maximum, Collegiate Wizard shouldn't clog the feat slots (unless, I suppose, Dark Chaos Shuffle or Limited Reformation or some such is on the table to get rid of it after getting the slots in which case it's a nice free bonus that I can totally get behind).

Exactly, all of that is possible because it doesn't require on anyone but the wizard himself/herself. He can learn a bunch of spells, scribe them, shuffle them away and relearn them without any outside aid.

[eggynack]

Persistent time stop.
It's been generally agreed that persistent time stop is a combo that doesn't actually work. I think it's because the spell has a duration listed as apparent time.

[AMFV]

Wrong. Cleric can prepare spells at specific time of a day so unless you are lucky and the fight takes place at that time you are unable to memorize new spells.

And wizard has access to the very same trick.

And if we allow minion-mancy there should be stalemate without any of them ever engaging in combat personally.



I'm a cleric of an ideal, since apparent time passes, then there is a specific time of day. It's not really clear how this would work in the real game, but at least arguable. Since there would still be a morning and evening for me, even if no apparent time passes for anybody else.

I'm arguing that at this level it is absolutely 100% stalemate. Both of them could completely be planned around that trick and then they both go off in combat. There is no way that it would turn out to be less than stalemate with two players of equal optimization.


It's been generally agreed that persistent time stop is a combo that doesn't actually work. I think it's because the spell has a duration listed as apparent time.

That'd be irrelevant since the Persistent spell has no restrictions based on Duration. The duration becomes 24 hours regardless of what it was before. Although it does bring up a lot of complicated rules questions with it. What a Time Stop with a duration of 24 hours would entail for example, that sort of thing.

[Psyren]

There is no way that it would turn out to be less than stalemate with two players of equal optimization.

If you allow external parties to participate then it is absolutely stalemate. But that is not the challenge laid out in the OP. It is 1 wizard vs. 1 cleric.

[ahenobarbi]

I mean literally my cleric has all the time in the world. In fact I would contingency my persistent time stop to the start of combat, thusly making it unstoppable, and then I don't even have to win initiative. Then I can research spells, in my time stopped bubble. Craft, do literally anything, since I have infinite time.

Ofcourse the wizard made a ring of three wishes which he used to wish for the very same contingency :smallbiggrin:

That's really the "unstopable something vs unmvable somethijng else" problem as-stated. Once you introduce limitations the side less affected by limits will win. doesn't say much about power of classes, more about who is favored by limit wording.

[AMFV]

If you allow external parties to participate then it is absolutely stalemate. But that is not the challenge laid out in the OP. It is 1 wizard vs. 1 cleric.

Yes but if we remove summons, it's no longer Wizard Vs. Cleric. But Nerfed Wizard Vs. Nerfed Cleric. Also not the challenge in the OP.


Ofcourse the wizard made a ring of three wishes which he used to wish for the very same contingency :smallbiggrin:

That's really the "unstopable something vs unmvable somethijng else" problem as-stated. Once you introduce limitations the side less affected by limits will win. doesn't say much about power of classes, more about who is favored by limit wording.

Exactly, my point exactly. I mostly just brought up the cleric thing to explain the time for crafting. Since both sides unlimited can do that and break the game, there is no way for either side to decisively win, since their limits will help the others.

[ahenobarbi]

I'm a cleric of an ideal, since apparent time passes, then there is a specific time of day. It's not really clear how this would work in the real game, but at least arguable. Since there would still be a morning and evening for me, even if no apparent time passes for anybody else.

As far as I know to change time of a day you need to have time pass for astronomical objects, not for yourself (well you could teleport to suitable timezone but that's another domain you need).


I'm arguing that at this level it is absolutely 100% stalemate. Both of them could completely be planned around that trick and then they both go off in combat. There is no way that it would turn out to be less than stalemate with two players of equal optimization.

Ah, I guess we agree then.


That'd be irrelevant since the Persistent spell has no restrictions based on Duration. The duration becomes 24 hours regardless of what it was before. Although it does bring up a lot of complicated rules questions with it. What a Time Stop with a duration of 24 hours would entail for example, that sort of thing.

Well if you replace duration with 24h you just screwed yourself pretty badly. Because you still only get to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time (spell description doesn't reference "duration" line) but it takes 24h (and while you can't hurt others nothing stops others from hurting you) :smallamused:

[eggynack]

That'd be irrelevant since the Persistent spell has no restrictions based on Duration. The duration becomes 24 hours regardless of what it was before. Although it does bring up a lot of complicated rules questions with it. What a Time Stop with a duration of 24 hours would entail for example, that sort of thing.
The duration becomes 24 hours, but the duration of the original spell was not 1d4+1 rounds. The duration was originally one round, because that's how long you experience the super speed. With persist, instead of having 1d4+1 rounds in one round, you get 1d4+1 rounds in 24 hours, which is bad.

If you allow external parties to participate then it is absolutely stalemate. But that is not the challenge laid out in the OP. It is 1 wizard vs. 1 cleric.
It really depends on what you mean by external parties. If the party is being brought into the game entirely under the caster's own power, then it should reasonably be fair game. That includes stuff like gate, or summons, or even ice assassin. At the same time, the way the OP phrased the challenge opened up the possibility of magic marts. In particular, he mentioned that the casters have a large quantity of time to prepare, and they clearly have available wealth by level, and if there is any magic mart in the multiverse, our casters can reach it. It seems rather unlikely that our heroes would be incapable of getting some item, though I'm in favor of an arbitrary limit to wealth by level.

[AMFV]

The duration becomes 24 hours, but the duration of the original spell was not 1d4+1 rounds. The duration was originally one round, because that's how long you experience the super speed. With persist, instead of having 1d4+1 rounds in one round, you get 1d4+1 rounds in 24 hours, which is bad.

The duration is not listed as one round. So this is a complex question. One which I think cannot be answered in terms of RAW. Since there is no listed "1 Round Duration", in fact the Time Stop is not "one round" that's not ever specified or mentioned, it's 1d4 rounds occurring virtually instantaneously. However since the listed duration is not instantaneous, it can be persisted, and the duration affected would be the written one. How this actually plays out is questionable. But it is inherently a complex question that is unlikely to be simply answered.

Which reinforces my earlier point, they both break the game, it would simply devolve into endless rules debate, with the necessity of having a third party make rulings. Since there are examples where no clear RAW exists. At this point again we move towards the fact that the rulings will generally support one side or the other, removing the possibility of a fair challenge. So end result is... game broken, tied while people argue the rules.


As far as I know to change time of a day you need to have time pass for astronomical objects, not for yourself (well you could teleport to suitable timezone but that's another domain you need).


Again a questionable issue, you could also have scrolls of teleport.




Well if you replace duration with 24h you just screwed yourself pretty badly. Because you still only get to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time (spell description doesn't reference "duration" line) but it takes 24h (and while you can't hurt others nothing stops others from hurting you) :smallamused:

Again not so, even if your argument is correct since it would increase it's duration to 24 hours, changing the previous duration, if your argument is correct then it's simply invalid since you can't change apparent time into real time. That would give it no duration, rendering it ineligible for persistent spell.

If my interpretation is correct then it works as written, but since there is only the listed apparent duration to be changed, it cannot work with the 24 hour four round day, unless there's something I'm missing and I doubt it.

[eggynack]

The duration is not listed as one round. So this is a complex question. One which I think cannot be answered in terms of RAW. Since there is no listed "1 Round Duration", in fact the Time Stop is not "one round" that's not ever specified or mentioned, it's 1d4 rounds occurring virtually instantaneously. However since the listed duration is not instantaneous, it can be persisted, and the duration affected would be the written one. How this actually plays out is questionable. But it is inherently a complex question that is unlikely to be simply answered.
Except the duration is effectively listed in the text of the spell. The spell makes time seem to flow slower for creatures that aren't you, except it actually doesn't make time slower, and everything's happening in a round. The duration tells you to see the text, which grants the text dispensation to alter the duration, which it does. Thus, very slow wizards and clerics.

[AMFV]

Except the duration is effectively listed in the text of the spell. The spell makes time seem to flow slower for creatures that aren't you, except it actually doesn't make time slower, and everything's happening in a round. The duration tells you to see the text, which grants the text dispensation to alter the duration, which it does. Thus, very slow wizards and clerics.


It does not specify that everything is happening in a round. It could be happening instantaneously in fact that is implied by the wording. But it's not stated in any case. If it was 1d4+1 rounds = 1 round then other creatures would still be able to act or take attacks of opportunity, since they are not we must assume that interpretation is not correct.

[eggynack]

It does not specify that everything is happening in a round. It could be happening instantaneously in fact that is implied by the wording. But it's not stated in any case. If it was 1d4+1 rounds = 1 round then other creatures would still be able to act or take attacks of opportunity, since they are not we must assume that interpretation is not correct.
It doesn't really matter what extra effects do or do not take place, because this is happening for a round. It might be an instantaneous effect, as you noted, but then the debate is over why this doesn't work, instead of whether this works. The most important thing is that the effect you're trying to modify, the 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, isn't something that can be modified by persistent spell. Everything else is just argument gravy.

[Psyren]

Yes but if we remove summons, it's no longer Wizard Vs. Cleric. But Nerfed Wizard Vs. Nerfed Cleric. Also not the challenge in the OP.

So a wizard/cleric that can't summon are no longer T1? Is that what you're saying?

Do their tiers change in the area of a Dimensional Lock/Forbiddance/Weirdstone?



It really depends on what you mean by external parties. If the party is being brought into the game entirely under the caster's own power, then it should reasonably be fair game. That includes stuff like gate, or summons, or even ice assassin. At the same time, the way the OP phrased the challenge opened up the possibility of magic marts. In particular, he mentioned that the casters have a large quantity of time to prepare, and they clearly have available wealth by level, and if there is any magic mart in the multiverse, our casters can reach it. It seems rather unlikely that our heroes would be incapable of getting some item, though I'm in favor of an arbitrary limit to wealth by level.

Again, WBL does not necessarily equal "anyone can help me prepare" because you can use WBL to craft items on your own just fine with no outside help.

[eggynack]

So a wizard/cleric that can't summon are no longer T1? Is that what you're saying?
No, but it is a nerf, and such a ban isn't part of the challenge. It doesn't really seem like outside help at all.


Again, WBL does not necessarily equal "anyone can help me prepare" because you can use WBL to craft items on your own just fine with no outside help.
It doesn't necessarily, but it can if you want. Wizards and clerics can go anywhere, and know anything, and between those abilities, and between those two factors, finding a magic mart is trivial. If there is not a single place in the multiverse that contains a magic item store, that's another matter, but such a limitation seems rather uncharacteristic for this game.

[Psyren]

No, but it is a nerf, and such a ban isn't part of the challenge. It doesn't really seem like outside help at all.

But if Gate is allowed, why not Gate in your deity? They can explicitly choose to come through and kick ass on your behalf. It would be like asking them to handle it with Miracle except it costs less XP.



It doesn't necessarily, but it can if you want. Wizards and clerics can go anywhere, and know anything, and between those abilities, and between those two factors, finding a magic mart is trivial. If there is not a single place in the multiverse that contains a magic item store, that's another matter, but such a limitation seems rather uncharacteristic for this game.

But if you can find unprinted items anywhere, why not go buy a Staff of Deity Calling at this magic mart? Or Al's Artifact Emporium? Or Mega Mythal Madness?

[ryu]

But if Gate is allowed, why not Gate in your deity? They can explicitly choose to come through and kick ass on your behalf. It would be like asking them to handle it with Miracle except it costs less XP.



But if you can find unprinted items anywhere, why not go buy a Staff of Deity Calling at this magic mart? Or Al's Artifact Emporium? Or Mega Mythal Madness?

This argument was already debunked previously by people pointing out any of a frighteningly large number of reasons deities bother with clerics to begin with. Those reasons usually amount to the simple fact that exerting their own will directly supposedly comes with rather impressively unsatisfactory consequences for them and possibly reality itself.

[eggynack]

But if Gate is allowed, why not Gate in your deity? They can explicitly choose to come through and kick ass on your behalf. It would be like asking them to handle it with Miracle except it costs less XP.
Well, theoretically it would be because there exists a choice at some step that is not yours. With summoning, or even ordinary gating, there is no link in the chain where things fail. If you rely on someone else to make a certain decision for your plan, then it's a bad plan. However, if you theoretically mind raped the deity to help you, then that point of weakness would no longer exist, deity gating could be considered non-reliant on outside help, and a deity having party could be thrown. Of course, such a plan would likely be equally available to wizards, but that's true of most things.


But if you can find unprinted items anywhere, why not go buy a Staff of Deity Calling at this magic mart? Or Al's Artifact Emporium? Or Mega Mythal Madness?
Is this item unprinted? I guess that's a different thing then. I figure that as long as the item is listed and priced, it's fair for purchase.

[Psyren]

Well, theoretically it would be because there exists a choice at some step that is not yours.

Miracle is also a choice that is not yours; the deity can say "no" and your spell is totally wasted. So by that reasoning Miracle is useless while Wish is not.

Shopping for items instead of creating them yourself also has a choice that is not yours; the person who made the item still has to choose to sell it.

Any attempts to mindrape a deity will trigger their portfolio sense long before you can pull it off and they can take the appropriate countermeasures. And mindrape is mind-affecting anyway.



Is this item unprinted? I guess that's a different thing then. I figure that as long as the item is listed and priced, it's fair for purchase.

Death and Nobility are the only printed Domain Staffs.


This argument was already debunked previously by people pointing out any of a frighteningly large number of reasons deities bother with clerics to begin with. Those reasons usually amount to the simple fact that exerting their own will directly supposedly comes with rather impressively unsatisfactory consequences for them and possibly reality itself.

Against a near-epic wizard with the power to potentially subvert their will entirely they would have no reason to pull their punches anymore.

[ryu]

Miracle is also a choice that is not yours; the deity can say "no" and your spell is totally wasted. So by that reasoning Miracle is useless while Wish is not.

Shopping for items instead of creating them yourself also has a choice that is not yours; the person who made the item still has to choose to sell it.

Any attempts to mindrape a deity will trigger their portfolio sense long before you can pull it off and they can take the appropriate countermeasures. And mindrape is mind-affecting anyway.



Death and Nobility are the only printed Domain Staffs.



Against a near-epic wizard with the power to potentially subvert their will entirely they would have no reason to pull their punches anymore.

You don't think reality exploding or the death of the deity itself are more severe consequences than the loss of a single priest? Considering the reason these priests exist is only to avoid such consequences while maintaining a way to exert will on reality to begin with? You have a strange set of priorities.

[Psyren]

How would reality explode? And whether deicide is even possible depends on the cosmology.

For most such beings, I would wager that being mindraped by a wizard who is left unchallenged because your most powerful cleric got taken down is no less drastic a situation. In fact it's worse, since reality continues, just firmly under the wizard's thumb.

Not coming through the Gate doesn't actually solve anything, as the Wizard can just Wish himself directly within range of the deity at any time with no chance of error and ignoring any local defenses.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fair: They both use Genesis to create their own pocket plane, the Wizard's has the dead magic trait for divine magic, the Cleric's has the dead magic trait for arcane magic. Both use Astral Projection to thwart and fight each other, and neither one ever actually kills the other.

Unfair: Whichever one is the first to Gate in the other, order him to dismiss his buffs and lay down helpless, then CDG his way to victory is the winner.

[eggynack]

Miracle is also a choice that is not yours; the deity can say "no" and your spell is totally wasted. So by that reasoning Miracle is useless while Wish is not.
That might actually be true, except in a not friendly to clerics way. It looks like only acts that are outside of your alignment are limited, but that's a whole other can of worms.


Shopping for items instead of creating them yourself also has a choice that is not yours; the person who made the item still has to choose to sell it.
I guess. Seems like the chances of that happening are low enough that you could just go to another store though. I mean, there's a choice, but it's not much of one.


Any attempts to mindrape a deity will trigger their portfolio sense long before you can pull it off and they can take the appropriate countermeasures. And mindrape is mind-affecting anyway.
Sure. I wasn't actually presenting this as a possibility, so much as it is a hypothetical. Like, were you capable of casting mind rape on a deity, this plan would work, but you can't, so it doesn't.



Death and Nobility are the only printed Domain Staffs.
Well, if there are no provisions for any other domain staffs in the text, I guess it's unavailable.


Against a near-epic wizard with the power to potentially subvert their will entirely they would have no reason to pull their punches anymore.[/QUOTE]

[ryu]

How would reality explode? And whether deicide is even possible depends on the cosmology.

For most such beings, I would wager that being mindraped by a wizard who is left unchallenged because your most powerful cleric got taken down is no less drastic a situation. In fact it's worse, since reality continues, just firmly under the wizard's thumb.

Not coming through the Gate doesn't actually solve anything, as the Wizard can just Wish himself directly within range of the deity at any time with no chance of error and ignoring any local defenses.

The wizard has no such goal shown and the deity would know if it did. As for the consequences every setting has some listed reason the deities don't come out to play. This varies from setting to setting but it is there, and it is also the reason clerics even exist to begin with.

[EugeneVoid]

"HANG ON... hang on... why are we fighting in the first place? Aren't you good-aligned too?"

"Wait, what? I've been preparing myself for ten levels, and you aren't even a bad guy?"

They hold hands and skip off into the sunset. Friendship.

But, the wizard never stops plotting the cleric's demise.

[ryu]

"HANG ON... hang on... why are we fighting in the first place? Aren't you good-aligned too?"

"Wait, what? I've been preparing myself for ten levels, and you aren't even a bad guy?"

They hold hands and skip off into the sunset. Friendship.

But, the wizard never stops plotting the cleric's demise.

Early mortal kombat style complete with flashing rainbow letters?

[EugeneVoid]

Early mortal kombat style complete with flashing rainbow letters?

Exactly:

http://i.imgur.com/WaRGg8D.png

[Psyren]

The wizard has no such goal shown and the deity would know if it did.

But he does have the goal of slaying the deity's cleric. In narrative contests of this nature, neither party is optimized and so it really can come down to things like hurling lightning and healing oneself. Against an optimized foe however the deity has no choice but to step in, unless they don't care about their cleric at all.


As for the consequences every setting has some listed reason the deities don't come out to play. This varies from setting to setting but it is there, and it is also the reason clerics even exist to begin with.

Those reasons boil down to "other deities don't want them to." But they'd have no reason to stick their necks out for an uppity cleric-slaying wizard.

[ryu]

But he does have the goal of slaying the deity's cleric. In narrative contests of this nature, neither party is optimized and so it really can come down to things like hurling lightning and healing oneself. Against an optimized foe however the deity has no choice but to step in, unless they don't care about their cleric at all.



Those reasons boil down to "other deities don't want them to." But they'd have no reason to stick their necks out for an uppity cleric-slaying wizard.

An enemy god directly leaving themselves open and wasting resources isn't a reason to you? I suppose you also expect ravenously hungry dogs to ignore strips of bacon offered to them?

[Psyren]

An enemy god directly leaving themselves open and wasting resources isn't a reason to you? I suppose you also expect ravenously hungry dogs to ignore strips of bacon offered to them?

How is it a waste of resources? Again, they have a stockpile of miracle-juice just lying around, i.e. 30,000 bonus XP per week (DaD 29). It does not roll over so they may as well use it.

[eggynack]

How is it a waste of resources? Again, they have a stockpile of miracle-juice just lying around, i.e. 30,000 bonus XP per week (DaD 29). It does not roll over so they may as well use it.
By that logic, they could just give maximum cleric juices to every cleric in existence at no cost. More reasonably, there are a lot of clerics out there, all of them clamoring for deific attention, and this magic is all they feel they can spare. If the cleric can't handle his own problems with the spells given to him, that seems to be his own fault.

[Psyren]

By that logic, they could just give maximum cleric juices to every cleric in existence at no cost. More reasonably, there are a lot of clerics out there, all of them clamoring for deific attention, and this magic is all they feel they can spare. If the cleric can't handle his own problems with the spells given to him, that seems to be his own fault.

Exactly - the cleric can't handle this problem just with his own spells - doubly so with Miracle removed from the equation. Which goes right back to what I said about the deity not caring deciding this contest.

[Threadnaught]

You mean the one that explicitly requires DM approval, making it useless for TO?

This is Optimized Cleric vs Optimized Wizard, DM approval should be assumed. Y'know, how it always is for TO.

The other thing is a pickle.


Simply put, because the spells aren't enough - not to face off against an optimized wizard. So either the deity gets involved or he loses his top cleric. Depending on the deity he may be okay with that, or he may not.

Without divine intervention the cleric loses, plain and simple.

Thing is, the Deity is already doing everything they can to help their Cleric, without provoking a world shattering war between Deities. Miracle is the closest a Cleric can actually come to the direct intervention of a Deity pre-Epic, post-Epic a Deity may be dragged into the conflict if Epic Magic is in play. If it is, Wizard uses Shapechange to turn into a Greater Barghest eats 3-12 corpses to get to 21HD (and more), from 20th-17th levels respectively. Wizard then has access to as many Feats as they want, including Epic Feats. Now the Wizard has access to Epic Spellcasting too, and is better at it than the Cleric. Of course the Cleric would have to forego the ability to cast in DMZs and AMFs in order to do this. This effectively creates Pun Pun lite.

I'm basically just copying one of Tippy's infinite tricks here. And according to him (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16069634&postcount=33), it's not TO.



Persistent Time Stop? A DM who runs this is either soft, or a sadist. Anyone fancy an item of Maximized Persistent Time Stop 1 per Day? I'll be giving one to all future parties starting level 1. :smallwink:

Hope you can last 5 days on your own. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

This is Optimized Cleric vs Optimized Wizard, DM approval should be assumed. Y'know, how it always is for TO.

No, that's not how TO works. TO throws out anything that needs DM approval to work, because if a DM has to be present then he/she can allow anything and the line becomes arbitrary.


Thing is, the Deity is already doing everything they can to help their Cleric, without provoking a world shattering war between Deities.

What "war between deities?" He's fighting a wizard, not an enemy cleric. A wizard who, if left unchecked, can go on to enslave other deities or otherwise run amok since his powers can't be taken away by his own patron.

And your own strategy for the wizard is just proving my point. Devouring souls to pump up his HD? There's a number of deities that would get cheesed off at that.

[EugeneVoid]

As a side note, I don't think you can persist Time Stop. It has a duration of instantaneous...

[AMFV]

Except the duration is effectively listed in the text of the spell. The spell makes time seem to flow slower for creatures that aren't you, except it actually doesn't make time slower, and everything's happening in a round. The duration tells you to see the text, which grants the text dispensation to alter the duration, which it does. Thus, very slow wizards and clerics.


It doesn't really matter what extra effects do or do not take place, because this is happening for a round. It might be an instantaneous effect, as you noted, but then the debate is over why this doesn't work, instead of whether this works. The most important thing is that the effect you're trying to modify, the 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, isn't something that can be modified by persistent spell. Everything else is just argument gravy.

Well that's debatable. The duration can be 24 hours. The question is what happens with that. Now RAW it could work, it could not work, but there is no clear RAW as I think I've shown. There are at least three possible debatable outcomes. Which I think reinforces my point. At 20 both Wizards and Clerics can easily shatter the game if they don't hold themselves back. So the whole problem just dissolves into a rules debate.

As we've seen with the other rules debates that are cropping up.


As a side note, I don't think you can persist Time Stop. It has a duration of instantaneous...

It's listed duration is 1d4+1 rounds (apparent) which is not definited anywhere so there are three possible outcomes by RAW of persist.

1.) It changes 1d4+1 rounds (apparent) to 24 hours (apparent) with the time units consistent, this is most in line with how persist normally works, but is clearly not RAI in this case (hell persisting Time Stop is certainly not either)

2.) It remains 1d4+1 apparent rounds but now lasts 24 hours in which time the wizard can be killed. Not a good interpretation since there is no listed (1 round) duration to be extended. I'm not sure where this argument came from.

3.) Persist does not work because it's instantaneous, this is probably closest to RAI on this case. However this is furthest from RAW since the listed duration is clearly not instantaneous.

All three could be argued fairly easily, and that's the problem. Such arguments could go on forever.


No, that's not how TO works. TO throws out anything that needs DM approval to work, because if a DM has to be present then he/she can allow anything and the line becomes arbitrary.


TO includes Pun Pun who uses both wishes and a candle of Invocation. Both are the purview of DM approval. Also coercing an Evil Demon to do exactly your bidding. I would say that this is probably an issue with this system.

[eggynack]

Well that's debatable. The duration can be 24 hours. The question is what happens with that. Now RAW it could work, it could not work, but there is no clear RAW as I think I've shown. There are at least three possible debatable outcomes. Which I think reinforces my point. At 20 both Wizards and Clerics can easily shatter the game if they don't hold themselves back. So the whole problem just dissolves into a rules debate.

As we've seen with the other rules debates that are cropping up.

Whether the duration can or cannot be 24 hours, you're absolutely not affecting the amount of apparent time you experience. The RAW could potentially be unclear, though it seems pretty clear to me, but I can't see an outcome where it's unclear in your favor.

Edit:

1.) It changes 1d4+1 rounds (apparent) to 24 hours (apparent) with the time units consistent, this is most in line with how persist normally works, but is clearly not RAI in this case (hell persisting Time Stop is certainly not either)
Basically, this is the one interpretation that doesn't work by RAW, which is the core problem. Persist doesn't affect apparent durations; it affects actual duration.

[AMFV]

Whether the duration can or cannot be 24 hours, you're absolutely not affecting the amount of apparent time you experience. The RAW could potentially be unclear, though it seems pretty clear to me, but I can't see an outcome where it's unclear in your favor.

Well I would argue that it continues to manipulate apparent time, or that you experience a real 24 hour time in that period. It's pretty muddy. Basically I would argue that modifying apparent time results in more apparent time. You can't switch from type of time to another without the spell doing the opposite of it's intention, just as Empower doesn't switch healing spells to doing damage this should not be the case. Furthermore the duration is listed as 1d4+1 (Apparent) Rounds, since that is what persist changes then RAW that is what is changed. It's not exactly clear what the outcome of that would be, or of changing it to real time. You could easily wind up with a broken twilight zone stop-watch scenario where the world continues turning but all the other characters stop (also a potential RAW interpretation).

Since the duration line is what is changed, it clearly changes 1d4+1 (Apparent) rounds to 24 hours. It's not exactly clear what that means though.



Edit:

Basically, this is the one interpretation that doesn't work by RAW, which is the core problem. Persist doesn't affect apparent durations; it affects actual duration.

But that is NOT a stated limitation of Persist, the stated limitation being that it doesn't work on instantaneous durations. There is no RAW regarding apparent durations, only the actual duration, which is again what is changed.

Since there is no RAW any interpretation could be argued as valid.

[eggynack]

Furthermore the duration is listed as 1d4+1 (Apparent) Rounds, since that is what persist changes then RAW that is what is changed.
Except that's not the duration listed. The duration listed is 1d4+1 (apparent rounds); see text. The text indicates either a one round duration, or an instantaneous duration, rather than a 1d4+1 round duration.

[AMFV]

Except that's not the duration listed. The duration listed is 1d4+1 (apparent rounds); see text. The text indicates either a one round duration, or an instantaneous duration, rather than a 1d4+1 round duration.

The text does not indicate a one round duration at any point in the text. It may make an argument for an instantaneous duration, but even that isn't spelled out in any real RAW fashion. While you could certainly make an argument for that it is anything other than clear.

In any case because neither of us is arguing with any real RAW to stand on, I'm probably going to have to agree to disagree, since it could really go either way, and we'd a DM ruling (which by the way is not something I would allow in a game)

The point still stands that both clerics and wizards would very easily hit RAW issues. We'd run into contingency defining issues next. There are too many easy RAW problems as soon as you get to that level and power. A fair fight cannot exist, because both of them would quickly reach poorly defined rules territory.

[eggynack]

The text does not indicate a one round duration at any point in the text. It may make an argument for an instantaneous duration, but even that isn't spelled out in any real RAW fashion. While you could certainly make an argument for that it is anything other than clear.
It's not really unclear. Time stop doesn't actually alter the way time flows, and you're certainly not making your actions take up an objective 1d4+1 rounds, so that's not the amount of time the magic lasts, and it is thus not the duration.


In any case because neither of us is arguing with any real RAW to stand on, I'm probably going to have to agree to disagree, since it could really go either way, and we'd a DM ruling (which by the way is not something I would allow in a game)

The point still stands that both clerics and wizards would very easily hit RAW issues. We'd run into contingency defining issues next. There are too many easy RAW problems as soon as you get to that level and power. A fair fight cannot exist, because both of them would quickly reach poorly defined rules territory.
Yeah, probably. 20th level casters are stupid. This weird deity thing seems kinda new though.

[AMFV]

It's not really unclear. Time stop doesn't actually alter the way time flows, and you're certainly not making your actions take up an objective 1d4+1 rounds, so that's not the amount of time the magic lasts, and it is thus not the duration.


Yeah, probably. 20th level casters are stupid. This weird deity thing seems kinda new though.

But it's listed as the duration :p. It is pretty crazy. Although I now have an idea for a deity. A cleric (or wizard) who's permanently time stopped, he (or she) researched a way to influence the time stream outside of where he (or she) is. His (or her) followers would be trying to find the one point in time where he exists to join him, so that he wouldn't be alone forever.

[eggynack]

But it's listed as the duration :p.
But it's not, cause if the text implies an actual duration, and it does, then that has the ability to form the actual duration of the spell. Such is the nature of seeing text. If that were not there, then persist probably would work, because the only thing with authority over the duration would be that 1d4+1 thing, but it is there.

[AMFV]

But it's not, cause if the text implies an actual duration, and it does, then that has the ability to form the actual duration of the spell. Such is the nature of seeing text. If that were not there, then persist probably would work, because the only thing with authority over the duration would be that 1d4+1 thing, but it is there.

The text doesn't actually really talk about the actual duration. It's not very clear, it just implies it, and crappily at that since several of us have differing ideas about it. In any case we could clearly argue all day about this. But I will concede that you could certainly be right, or at the very least you have a reasonable interpretation.

[Psyren]

TO includes Pun Pun who uses both wishes and a candle of Invocation. Both are the purview of DM approval. Also coercing an Evil Demon to do exactly your bidding. I would say that this is probably an issue with this system.

No, Wish only requires DM approval if you go outside the listed uses (which Pun-Pun does not.) And the Candle requires no approval at all.

[AMFV]

No, Wish only requires DM approval if you go outside the listed uses (which Pun-Pun does not.) And the Candle requires no approval at all.

But his negotiation with Pazuzu is definitely contingent on DM approval, I'm sorry it clearly is.

[Psyren]

But his negotiation with Pazuzu is definitely contingent on DM approval, I'm sorry it clearly is.

Pazuzu explicitly grants paladins a free wish and always comes when they call - that's why Pazuzu-using Pun-Pun is a kobold paladin. (FC1 76-77.) There is no negotiation or DM adjudication required for this service.

[AMFV]

Pazuzu explicitly grants paladins a free wish and always comes when they call - that's why Pazuzu-using Pun-Pun is a kobold paladin. (FC1 76-77.) There is no negotiation or DM adjudication required for this service.

"If he wishes and is able" quoted directly from that book. That's pretty clearly DM adjudication right there. "Almost always agrees to provide aid" again from the book directly. None of these statements are explicitly granting a player a free wish, they are merely suggestions to that effect. In fact they clearly support an argument that the Demon Lord may not do so.

[Psyren]

"If he wishes and is able" quoted directly from that book. That's pretty clearly DM adjudication right there. "Almost always agrees to provide aid" again from the book directly. None of these statements are explicitly granting a player a free wish, they are merely suggestions to that effect. In fact they clearly support an argument that the Demon Lord may not do so.

"Almost always" means that it has to happen more than half the time for it to be true by RAW. So simply call him twice or more; by RAW you will get through eventually.

[AMFV]

"Almost always" means that it has to happen more than half the time for it to be true by RAW. So simply call him twice or more; by RAW you will get through eventually.

I imagine he'd kill you. For calling him twice. Being CE and all. That would be a much more reasonable course of action for him. If he doesn't want to corrupt you, then he's probably not going to respond well.

In any case that's clearly a DM call, and as was pointed in TO threads. TO is pretty forgiving of shenanigans, even if they require DM approval.

Edit:

RAW you're not rolling a percentage, your DM is deciding if we wants to grant the wish, which he very well may choose not to. Also Pun Pun is not a Kobold Paladin, since they don't have knowledge (Planes) and therefore are unaware of the existence of Pazuzu.

[nedz]

But his negotiation with Pazuzu is definitely contingent on DM approval, I'm sorry it clearly is.

Pun Pun doesn't actually require Pazuzu. It's Pun Pun ascending at level 1 which requires this. You can pull off this trick without Pazuzu, it just requires more levels.

[Perseus]

I imagine he'd kill you. For calling him twice. Being CE and all. That would be a much more reasonable course of action for him. If he doesn't want to corrupt you, then he's probably not going to respond well.

In any case that's clearly a DM call, and as was pointed in TO threads. TO is pretty forgiving of shenanigans, even if they require DM approval.

Edit:

RAW you're not rolling a percentage, your DM is deciding if we wants to grant the wish, which he very well may choose not to. Also Pun Pun is not a Kobold Paladin, since they don't have knowledge (Planes) and therefore are unaware of the existence of Pazuzu.

Cross class skill /nit pick

[Psyren]

I imagine he'd kill you. For calling him twice. Being CE and all.

By RAW he only punishes you if you call him when you are CE.



RAW you're not rolling a percentage

Sure you are - if he answers favorably less than half the time that is a violation of the text.


Also Pun Pun is not a Kobold Paladin, since they don't have knowledge (Planes) and therefore are unaware of the existence of Pazuzu.

This is easy to get around, e.g. the Education feat.

[AMFV]

Cross class skill /nit pick

Not so, in TO these things matter, since so many people ignore them.


By RAW he only punishes you if you call him when you are CE.


He's CE since when does he even have to follow his own rules, he's bound by far fewer rules than most, being you know, chaotic and all.


Sure you are - if he answers favorably less than half the time that is a violation of the text.


That would be true if "almost always" had a quantatitve meaning. But it doesn't furthermore you're ignoring the "his wishes" section which is the more important section. If his granting you wishes will make you more powerful than him, and he's a very smart feller, he'd know that, and that'd be counter to his likely designs.



This is easy to get around, e.g. the Education feat.

A regional feat for which kobolds do not qualify, and a setting specific one in either case. Which makes it impossible to use with Pazuzu since he is technically set in Greyhawk and never referenced in FR or Eberron.

[Psyren]

He's CE since when does he even have to follow his own rules, he's bound by far fewer rules than most, being you know, chaotic and all.

But if you're dismissing the rules, how do you know he's chaotic at all? The rules are what tell you his alignment, and everything else about him.



That would be true if "almost always" had a quantatitve meaning. But it doesn't

Sure it does - it means something happens a minimum of more than half the time.



A regional feat for which kobolds do not qualify, and a setting specific one in either case. Which makes it impossible to use with Pazuzu since he is technically set in Greyhawk and never referenced in FR or Eberron.

Wrong on both counts. In Eberron, Pazuzu lives in Shavarath. In FR he lives in the Abyss just as he does in Greyhawk.

[AMFV]

But if you're dismissing the rules, how do you know he's chaotic at all? The rules are what tell you his alignment, and everything else about him.

I have ignored no rules, merely brought up what I thought was a commonly known problem with the standard build. As a CE being he is not obligated to behave in the way exactly listed. That would be ludicrous to even explain in any sensible way. Anything which would require that much tap-dancing to explain is likely wrong. Occam's Razor.

Secodly, you are ignoring "His Wish's" clearly the RAW reason he wouldn't grant Pun Pun his candle since it will give him ultimate power. What does Pazuzu get out of that, I mean he could but I think it's unlikely and to argue that you can RAW behavior is absurd.


Sure it does - it means something happens a minimum of more than half the time.


Nope, there is no such definition. Almost by the Oxford Definition means "Not Quite" or "Very Nearly", all of which are qualitative statements. Completely dependent on my definition of the concept of not quite, or very nearly. Particularly they have no rules statement.


Wrong on both counts. In Eberron, Pazuzu lives in Shavarath. In FR he lives in the Abyss just as he does in Greyhawk.

Does he, I stand corrected.

However, Pun Pun is a level 1 PSION. Since he also need an extra feat and flaws are not always accepted.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486

As you can see in his creation thread.

[Red Rubber Band]

Pun Pun doesn't actually require Pazuzu. It's Pun Pun ascending at level 1 which requires this. You can pull off this trick without Pazuzu, it just requires more levels.

The problem with that is that the Omnifiscer beats him if he goes off levels. Level 4 Omni to Level 5(?) Pun.

[ryu]

Once you have the first wish you have infinite wishes. Use one of them to get the necessary resources to use a magical location to get a feat, then use still more wishes to chaos shuffle it to whatever it must be. Feats are not an argument in an environment of T0 with candles of invocation.

[AMFV]

The problem with that is that the Omnifiscer beats him if he goes off levels. Level 4 Omni to Level 5(?) Pun.

The problem is more that this level of insanity basically causes the rules to cease to exist in any meaningful context. Pun Pun can literally do anything, at this point in TO that means everything, this is a solved problem. Any Wizard that isn't Pun Pun isn't fully optimized. So the battle would be Pun Pun Vs. Pun Pun. Or somebody is pulling punches.

Since somebody is pulling punches, it then follows that there's not a real way to devise who would win, furthermore it's sort of irrelevant. As we've established at this level of play the game would devolve into an exhaustive rules argument, and the DM would have to rule either way. So it just resolves to whichever one the DM likes more.

[Oko and Qailee]

Chiming in. I'm a huge cleric fan so please regard me as a bit bias.

But as objectively as I can say, given preparation and knowledge of the fight about to begin? It's all a crapshoot. With Tier 1's at a certain point it doesn't really matter at all and it's completely build dependent.

A Wizard gets Nerveskitter, but a Cleric can Persist Sign and Auto-roll 20 for initiative for forever.
Both classes can get Wish (Cleric with certain domain.)
Clerics can DMM: Persist, which is super sexy, ofc, Wizards can spend money to get Rods of Extend Spell.

TBH it's not really very cut and dry. Both Wizards and Clerics can build uber-impenetrable strongholds (Hallow, Forbiddance, AMF's, Glyphs of Warding, Phase Doors, Walls of Force, Dimensional locks, Genesis, etc) so neither can really go after the other.

If they for some reason agree to meet up, it's once again just a crapshoot of "Whose build is marginally better, what spells were prepared, did one of the dispel the other and roll really well?"

[AMFV]

Once you have the first wish you have infinite wishes. Use one of them to get the necessary resources to use a magical location to get a feat, then use still more wishes to chaos shuffle it to whatever it must be. Feats are not an argument in an environment of T0 with candles of invocation.

You can't get the first wish without sufficient Knowledge (The Planes), it takes a specialized Psion build with the bonus from the crystal to get high enough to get the knowledge regarding Pazuzu, which is when it's attainable at level 1.


Chiming in. I'm a huge cleric fan so please regard me as a bit bias.

But as objectively as I can say, given preparation and knowledge of the fight about to begin? It's all a crapshoot. With Tier 1's at a certain point it doesn't really matter at all and it's completely build dependent.


Absolutely, this has been argument for a long minute. The whole thing is moot, because at a certain point it becomes possible to get to the most absurd tricks imaginable.

[Oko and Qailee]

Since somebody is pulling punches, it then follows that there's not a real way to devise who would win, furthermore it's sort of irrelevant. As we've established at this level of play the game would devolve into an exhaustive rules argument, and the DM would have to rule either way. So it just resolves to whichever one the DM likes more.

Basically this. When both classes can be omniscient and all-powerful it really depends on levels of optimization, and you can't say "well for equal levels of optimization" because it varies at certain levels. Ex. I would guess at low optimization a Cleric wins, bc that's when the chassis matters more, at mid levels I would guess wizard simply because the Wizard spell list is better, and at high it doesnt matter because the universe is being destroyed retroactively as both classes are making new ones, smugly saying "I'll create my own arcane/divine universe with blackjack and hookers.".

[AMFV]

Basically this. When both classes can be omniscient and all-powerful it really depends on levels of optimization, and you can't say "well for equal levels of optimization" because it varies at certain levels. Ex. I would guess at low optimization a Cleric wins, bc that's when the chassis matters more, at mid levels I would guess wizard simply because the Wizard spell list is better, and at high it doesnt matter because the universe is being destroyed retroactively as both classes are making new ones, smugly saying "I'll create my own arcane/divine universe with blackjack and hookers.".

A gentleman knows that he should create a universe with Blackjack, hookers and booze. What kind of universe would it be otherwise?

[Oko and Qailee]

Absolutely, this has been argument for a long minute. The whole thing is moot, because at a certain point it becomes possible to get to the most absurd tricks imaginable.

That being said, see my first sentence.

I for one accept our new Cleric Overlords.


A gentleman knows that he should create a universe with Blackjack, hookers and booze. What kind of universe would it be otherwise?

My mistake, what kind of monster am I!

[ryu]

Just pointing out that your feat argument is literally the most pointless thing.

[AMFV]

Just pointing out that your feat argument is literally the most pointless thing.

Not in TO it's not, if you want to argue RAW you have to have the RAW on your side. Period. Pun Pun is built a specific way, because it matters, because it's the rules, if that's the arena you want to argue you have to play that game. And quibbling over the rules becomes important then.

Even then it still assumes DM approval, although it's perhaps a logical sort of approval. But it does assume that.

[HaikenEdge]

You can't get the first wish without sufficient Knowledge (The Planes), it takes a specialized Psion build with the bonus from the crystal to get high enough to get the knowledge regarding Pazuzu, which is when it's attainable at level 1.

Knowledge (Religion) also works. I think I got it doable for a level 1 Ardent to make the DC 25 Knowledge check back in the day with a +24 skill modifier, before TO boards as a whole decided you take 10 on skill checks.

[AMFV]

Knowledge (Religion) also works. I think I got it doable for a level 1 Ardent to make the DC 25 Knowledge check back in the day with a +24 skill modifier, before TO boards as a whole decided you take 10 on skill checks.

Then it might be manageable with a Paladin, tough though. Since you'd have +4 (Ability), +3 Skill Focus, +4 (Ranks), +2 (Masterwork Tools). That's still a little low, but it might be manageable, if you were venerable.

[Psyren]

I have ignored no rules

Except everything under "Temptation (Su)."



Secodly, you are ignoring "His Wish's" clearly the RAW reason he wouldn't grant Pun Pun his candle since it will give him ultimate power. What does Pazuzu get out of that, I mean he could but I think it's unlikely and to argue that you can RAW behavior is absurd.

You're assuming Pazuzu knows what will happen. He doesn't have Portfolio Sense because he isn't a deity.



Nope, there is no such definition. Almost by the Oxford Definition means "Not Quite" or "Very Nearly", all of which are qualitative statements. Completely dependent on my definition of the concept of not quite, or very nearly. Particularly they have no rules statement.

Always = 100% so Almost Always must be only slightly less than that. 50% is not slightly less therefore that is the lower bound.



Does he, I stand corrected.

However, Pun Pun is a level 1 PSION. Since he also need an extra feat and flaws are not always accepted.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486

As you can see in his creation thread.

There are multiple Pun-Pun builds; the psion build is not the only one.


The problem is more that this level of insanity basically causes the rules to cease to exist in any meaningful context.

Of course that is true, but RAW is RAW.

[eggynack]

Is the main thread here even TO? I mean, it's certainly high optimization, but there hasn't really been much that I couldn't imagine in a normal game. It seems kinda PO to me.

[HaikenEdge]

Then it might be manageable with a Paladin, tough though. Since you'd have +4 (Ability), +3 Skill Focus, +4 (Ranks), +2 (Masterwork Tools). That's still a little low, but it might be manageable, if you were venerable.

Actually, I'm kind of leery about taking 10 on Knowledge checks in general; my understanding is you can't take 10 on checks you can't retry, and you can't retry a Knowledge check (except for by special circumstance); maybe I'm wrong, though, since everybody besides me says you can take 10 on a Knowledge check.

[AMFV]

Except everything under "Temptation (Su)."


That still includes "His wishes" which allows the DM to decide to not grant the wish if he feels like it. It is a known point of failure in the build and has been discussed previously.



You're assuming Pazuzu knows what will happen. He doesn't have Portfolio Sense because he isn't a deity.


But there is no reason for it to be that way, he's intelligent, and if a player is pulling those kind of shenanigans there is zero reason a DM should pull punches.


Always = 100% so Almost Always must be only slightly less than that. 50% is not slightly less therefore that is the lower bound.
.
That's not true at all, since it's a qualitative statement. There are no quantitative rules for what almost always means. I could say 2% is almost always, now that seems like insanity to you, but it may be within my criterion for almost always. Since it's not a defined term, and the dictionary definition is clearly also qualitative, you can't make a quantitative inference from it.


Is the main thread here even TO? I mean, it's certainly high optimization, but there hasn't really been much that I couldn't imagine in a normal game. It seems kinda PO to me.

I don't think it is, it's kind of some nebulous in-between ground. Certainly the problem is that at that point we're setting near arbitrary limitations, that will affect one side more than the other.

Additionally what is considered acceptable in PO varies so greatly it's almost absurd. It creates a non-level playing field to begin with.

[ryu]

Actually, I'm kind of leery about taking 10 on Knowledge checks in general; my understanding is you can't take 10 on checks you can't retry, and you can't retry a Knowledge check (except for by special circumstance); maybe I'm wrong, though, since everybody besides me says you can take 10 on a Knowledge check.

Pretty sure that's taking 20 bro. Taking 20 involves repeatedly failing. Taking 10 only requires that you aren't in active danger from something other than the possibility of the skill failing. Namely the example of taking 10 cites climbing up a cliff. Can't retry that if you've already fallen, and the only danger is failing the check.

[AMFV]

Pretty sure that's taking 20 bro. Taking 20 involves repeatedly failing. Taking 10 only requires that you aren't in active danger from something other than the possibility of the skill failing. Namely the example of taking 10 cites climbing up a cliff. Can't retry that if you've already fallen, and the only danger is failing the check.

In any case the Paladin doesn't quite make it, even taking 10, you'd need some additional source of cheese there.

[HaikenEdge]

Pretty sure that's taking 20 bro. Taking 20 involves repeatedly failing. Taking 10 only requires that you aren't in active danger from something other than the possibility of the skill failing. Namely the example of taking 10 cites climbing up a cliff. Can't retry that if you've already fallen, and the only danger is failing the check.

Yeah, I suppose that's correct. I've always been in groups that just interpreted Knowledge skills as either you know something or you don't, so you can't really take 10 on it because you can't just pick an average result to a binary situation, ie, you can't take an average result to see what you know.

Guess I've been playing D&D wrong there (or at least not in accordance to RAW)

[ryu]

Yeah, I suppose that's correct. I've always been in groups that just interpreted Knowledge skills as either you know something or you don't, so you can't really take 10 on it because you can't just pick an average result to a binary situation, ie, you can't take an average result to see what you know.

Guess I've been playing D&D wrong there (or at least not in accordance to RAW)

There is an average on how effectively people can retain knowledge after learning it or otherwise seeing it in a location. As such there's no reason to assume knowledge is any more averages devoid than other skills. Climbing a cliff is also binary. Succeed or fall then die.

[Red Rubber Band]

In any case the Paladin doesn't quite make it, even taking 10, you'd need some additional source of cheese there.

Does venerable not put you over the line? Maybe an assist bonus?

You need, what, 15 if you're taking 10.

[AMFV]

Does venerable not put you over the line? Maybe an assist bonus?

You need, what, 15 if you're taking 10.

I think venerable is 1 short. Being only an increase of three, you'd need one more, theoretically it could be an assist although that'd be problematic, since you'd need somebody else in on your scheme.

[Red Rubber Band]

I think venerable is 1 short. Being only an increase of three, you'd need one more, theoretically it could be an assist although that'd be problematic, since you'd need somebody else in on your scheme.

Template of some description to increase Int? Scroll/Potion of Intellect?

Random question. When Wizards level do they automatically learn spells? Or do they just get spell slots? Cause if they just *poof* and learnt the spells they're, in my mind, basically like a semi-retarded sorcerer (looking purely at that part of the mechanic perspective - or whatever... brain isn't working so I'm not sure this last part is written write).

[AMFV]

Template of some description to increase Int? Scroll/Potion of Intellect?

Random question. When Wizards level do they automatically learn spells? Or do they just get spell slots? Cause if they just *poof* and learnt the spells they're, in my mind, basically like a semi-retarded sorcerer (looking purely at that part of the mechanic perspective - or whatever... brain isn't working so I'm not sure this last part is written write).

They learn 2 spells per level. More if you're an elven generalist or a collegiate wizard. I understand it as gaining more magical theory knowledge and then putting that into practice, basically it's kind of like implied research they do while leveling.

Potion of Fox's Cunning would work, but it'd be too expensive for a first level character, sadly.

[ryu]

I think venerable is 1 short. Being only an increase of three, you'd need one more, theoretically it could be an assist although that'd be problematic, since you'd need somebody else in on your scheme.

Random librarian who has no idea what you're trying to do? He just offhand hears you mumbling about trying to remember who was that evil guy who tempts people, can be called from anywhere, and who's name starts with a P.... Alternatively less than scrupulous man you bribed with promises of immortality, unlimited power, and half of all of existence to rule over.

[AMFV]

Random librarian who has no idea what you're trying to do? He just offhand hears you mumbling about trying to remember who was that evil guy who tempts people, can be called from anywhere, and who's name starts with a P.... Alternatively less than scrupulous man you bribed with promises of immortality, unlimited power, and half of all of existence to rule over.

It could work, although he might be less likely to assist you if he could make the higher knowledge check, which is certainly a possibility. In any case it's not a sure thing at that point, which damages it's ability as a TO build.

It already has one possible break point, two would be very hard to justify when you could just make it something that would naturally make the check.

[ryu]

Wait a minute couldn't you just use starting wealth to hire some random person to use aid another for the bonus? They don't even technically have to know what you're knowledging about if I'm remembering correctly...

[EugeneVoid]

A gentleman knows that he should create a universe with Blackjack, hookers and booze. What kind of universe would it be otherwise?

http://i.imgur.com/qFHbm8B.png

[AMFV]

http://i.imgur.com/qFHbm8B.png

The booze was clearly implied when he said that.

[Angelalex242]

I think the debate seems to boil down to 'Just how much help can the Cleric get from his god.' If the answer is 'more then a miracle spell', then he wins.

If the answer is less...I don't see how you get around celerities and time stops and whatever.

So just how much god is in the cleric's corner? Or more accurately, what are the rules of Divine Intervention in the world they're fighting in. Deities have Avatars after all. And nobody said the cleric had to pick a fight with the wizard on the Prime Material Plane, where the gods apparently have to be more careful about when they send their avatars in.

The Cleric of Mystara could hang out on Mystara's home plane, for example, and say 'come get me wizard...'

[AMFV]

I think the debate seems to boil down to 'Just how much help can the Cleric get from his god.' If the answer is 'more then a miracle spell', then he wins.

If the answer is less...I don't see how you get around celerities and time stops and whatever.

So just how much god is in the cleric's corner? Or more accurately, what are the rules of Divine Intervention in the world they're fighting in. Deities have Avatars after all. And nobody said the cleric had to pick a fight with the wizard on the Prime Material Plane, where the gods apparently have to be more careful about when they send their avatars in.

The Cleric of Mystara could hang out on Mystara's home plane, for example, and say 'come get me wizard...'

The Cleric can get both celerity and Time Stop with Anyspell and the Time Domain respectively. Most of a wizard's dirty tricks can be accessed by a cleric, and vis versa. At that level it boils down to both of them being unbeatable gods who are only defeated when somebody rules that RAW is against them. They are both to the point where they easily shatter the rules as written, and require interpretation, so it's a moot point. Either side could easily win.

[eggynack]

The Cleric can get both celerity and Time Stop with Anyspell and the Time Domain respectively. Most of a wizard's dirty tricks can be accessed by a cleric, and vis versa. At that level it boils down to both of them being unbeatable gods who are only defeated when somebody rules that RAW is against them. They are both to the point where they easily shatter the rules as written, and require interpretation, so it's a moot point. Either side could easily win.
Actually, it looks a lot like it depends on which domains the cleric chose. I mean, now you've taken the spell and time domains, so the cleric can no longer cast shapechange, or some of the other critical spells that wizards get.

[AMFV]

Actually, it looks a lot like it depends on which domains the cleric chose. I mean, now you've taken the spell and time domains, so the cleric can no longer cast shapechange, or some of the other critical spells that wizards get.

True but a cleric with Anyspell has the Spell domain and can therefore cast all of those from spell trigger items.

[eggynack]

True but a cleric with Anyspell has the Spell domain and can therefore cast all of those from spell trigger items.
I don't think so. Anyspell adds these spells to your preparations, but it doesn't add them to your list.

Edit: Also, I think you still have to choose between time stop and shapechange.

[AMFV]

I don't think so. Anyspell adds these spells to your preparations, but it doesn't add them to your list.

Edit: Also, I think you still have to choose between time stop and shapechange.

Ah, I was confusing it with the Magic Domain. Although it is of note that the Magic domain can allow a cleric to replicate any of the wizard tricks, with the exception of the spell engine trick.

[eggynack]

Ah, I was confusing it with the Magic Domain. Although it is of note that the Magic domain can allow a cleric to replicate any of the wizard tricks, with the exception of the spell engine trick.
Well, in that case you're limited on the celerity front, because you'd only be casting it from a wand, which is quite a bit less good than casting it from a slot. Domains are a pretty serious limitation.

[AMFV]

Well, in that case you're limited on the celerity front, because you'd only be casting it from a wand, which is quite a bit less good than casting it from a slot. Domains are a pretty serious limitation.

True, although celerity isn't always that great compared to other things. And since our cleric can use Magic to cast Time Stop through a trigger item, he could do Anyspell for Celerity. In the end with sufficient work all shenanigans are possible for a cleric except for a very small number.

Even then our Cleric could be a contemplative, or a Sovereign Speaker. Extra domains aren't terribly difficult to acquire. There's also a feat that allows them (although I won't bring it up again since it's been hotly contested already). It's not impossible to build a cleric to take advantage of most wizard shenanigans.

And vis versa, it's not difficult to build a wizard with most cleric shenanigans, even persist and other relative crazyness.

Basically unless we are comparing specific builds this turns into a total waste of time. Albeit a fun one, since we have no idea what "the same optimization level" would really mean. Short of Pun Pun our yardstick is pretty broked.

[eggynack]

I guess magic domain can actually cover a good deal of ground, though it does so at some expense. Combining that with spell covers pretty much all the things, though now you're doing so with a simultaneously higher spell and item cost than a same level wizard. When you get right down to it, wizards do pretty much everything clerics do, and they do it for lower resource expenditure, so they probably have the edge. I can't see a way for the cleric to get a real edge, especially if the wizard is going incantarix, so it looks like the best case scenario for the cleric is a tie, which is somewhat probable.

[Angelalex242]

Cleric still has the advantage of choosing his battleground.

Cleric of Anygod. "Hi, I'm in my God's home plane, come get me wizard."

Wizard:Why do I get the idea going to face a cleric in his god's home plane probably won't end well for me?

[AMFV]

I guess magic domain can actually cover a good deal of ground, though it does so at some expense. Combining that with spell covers pretty much all the things, though now you're doing so with a simultaneously higher spell and item cost than a same level wizard. When you get right down to it, wizards do pretty much everything clerics do, and they do it for lower resource expenditure, so they probably have the edge. I can't see a way for the cleric to get a real edge, especially if the wizard is going incantarix, so it looks like the best case scenario for the cleric is a tie, which is somewhat probable.

Well the Cheater of Mystra has some tricks. The Twice Betrayer of Shar has even more. There are a few builds that have cleric only shenanigans. There are few spells that you'd need Anyspell for, provided that you were fighting on your own terms. Since a contingent plane shift would probably be a good bet. To avoid fighting on the Battlefield not of your choosing. In fact I'd wager that'd be both character's first action. Then they'd both be scrying and dying for all time, since risk is dangerous and therefore risking would cause any side to lose. It's not rocket tag, it's mutually assured destruction.

[Zanos]

Cleric still has the advantage of choosing his battleground.

Cleric of Anygod. "Hi, I'm in my God's home plane, come get me wizard."

Wizard:Why do I get the idea going to face a cleric in his god's home plane probably won't end well for me?

Irrelevant. Either can create a demiplane to their specifications. Genesis allows the creations of demiplanes such that you can make all magic that actually works on you not function.

Also, nothing in the RAW states that, outside of their granted class features/spells, the Cleric can request aid directly from their deity. A god isn't going to show on the material plane because a high level cleric is about to die, and they aren't going to resurrect them for free either, because those aren't part of the clerics class features anymore than a Wizard getting to date your resident god of magic(Elminster excluded).

If the cleric isn't using any number of tricks to get access to cherry picked broken spells off the wizard list, the wizard wins.

If the cleric is, neither of them fight because their astral projections/simulacrums/ice assassins fight instead of them, they are both mindblanked, and neither has access to metafaculty.

Assuming something prevents them from fighting via proxies, whoever wins contingency chess and manages to summon their personal army of 40 HD creatures first.

[Angelalex242]

You missed the point.

See, on a deity's home plane, other deities have no say. So if the wizard goes there in the first place, he's done.

So the cleric just goes to his deity's home plane and says 'come get me.' The cleric can even take a nap because his god's physical form is RIGHT THERE.

At that point, it's not requesting the god's help, it's 'the god is standing right over there. Woe to the fool who opposes him.'

"A god isn't going to show on the material plane..."

Which misses the point of my premise. This is the cleric plane shifting/gating/whatever to his deity's home plane, and daring the wizard to follow him. Once in the deity's home plane, all bets are off. To clarify further, the deity's divinely morphic home plane on the outer planes of its choice. (If Heironeus, say, the fields of Valor on Mt. Celestia)

[ahenobarbi]

You missed the point.

See, on a deity's home plane, other deities have no say. So if the wizard goes there in the first place, he's done.

So the cleric just goes to his deity's home plane and says 'come get me.' The cleric can even take a nap because his god's physical form is RIGHT THERE.

And why is the wizard going there to commit suicide again instead of waiting on his private demiplane where divine magic doesn't work and waiting for the cleric to come and die?

[eggynack]

You missed the point.

See, on a deity's home plane, other deities have no say. So if the wizard goes there in the first place, he's done.

So the cleric just goes to his deity's home plane and says 'come get me.' The cleric can even take a nap because his god's physical form is RIGHT THERE.

At that point, it's not requesting the god's help, it's 'the god is standing right over there. Woe to the fool who opposes him.'

"A god isn't going to show on the material plane..."

Which misses the point of my premise. This is the cleric plane shifting/gating/whatever to his deity's home plane, and daring the wizard to follow him. Once in the deity's home plane, all bets are off. To clarify further, the deity's divinely morphic home plane on the outer planes of its choice. (If Heironeus, say, the fields of Valor on Mt. Celestia)
But your point is completely and utterly irrelevant. The wizard has no more reason to go into the cleric's home plane where he is invincible than the cleric has reason to go into the wizard's home plane where he is invincible. The advantage you cite is held by both competitors, because wizards can make an incredibly effective base of operations, and it's held by neither competitor, because if the only way for a duel to happen is one of the casters entering the other's plane of amazement, then a duel will never happen. In the best case scenario, each competitor somehow manages to send a constant stream of minions into the other's base of operations, including some astral projections, but that plan isn't all that likely to work for either one. It'd be hard for either caster to even enter the other's base, let alone send minions into it.

[Zanos]

-snip-
How does a Wizard get to level 20 with an intelligence score of less than 10?

[Angelalex242]

Intelligence 40, Wisdom 6? :smallcool:

Anyways, I do believe going to a deity's home plane is a MUCH better base of operations then simply making your own demiplane. The god's plane is bigger, has more servants, and the cleric has to put no effort into it, because the god maintains it all. Also, ya know, actual Divine Ranks God standing right there.

[eggynack]

As a final note, wizards have a significantly higher chance of being able to bring the cleric to his demiplane than the reverse. Wish can bypass just about anything when it comes to the teleportation effect, and that's on the wizard list, and not on the cleric list. They can both access the spell, with some work, but wizards would have it more often, either normally, or through shapechange.

[Angelalex242]

Well, not if the Cleric's using my choice of base.

"I wish the cleric were here!"

God:LOL no.

Cleric:*still catching zs*

On the other hand.

Cleric casts Miracle, "Please bring the wizard here, oh god!"

...and the wizard does what about it?

[eggynack]

Well, not if the Cleric's using my choice of base.

"I wish the cleric were here!"

God:LOL no.

Cleric:*still catching zs*
Is that actually a thing that a God could, or more importantly, would, do? I mean, it's not like wizards can't have deities who like them too. Anyways, it doesn't matter, at all, how powerful your base is if the fight won't take place there, and the fight won't take place there. That's pretty much it. Also, the wizard's domain gets the benefit of being created by the wizard, while the cleric has to put up with the deities choices of planar traits and furniture.

Edit: As for miracle, miracle lacks the teleportation functionality of wish.

[Zanos]

Well, not if the Cleric's using my choice of base.

"I wish the cleric were here!"

God:LOL no.

Cleric:*still catching zs*

On the other hand.

Cleric casts Miracle, "Please bring the wizard here, oh god!"

...and the wizard does what about it?
The teleportation function of Wish explicitly ignores local conditions. There are rules for deities, and I am not familiar with a Salient Divine Ability with language that overrides the teleportation power of wish.

And again, nothing by RAW allows a Cleric to ask for his Deity to come bail his ass out besides his daily castings of miracle. Clerics serve their deities interest, not the other way around.

Written deities are actually rather stupid. I would be surprised if one of them actually had a plane that disabled anything they were weak against, so creating your own demiplane is probably a better deal as far as protection goes.

If we want to get really stupid though, the Wizard can just Ice Assassin as many copies of every deity as he wants and they're compelled to serve him.

As for Int 40 Wis 6, an optimized wizard used wishes to get himself +5 inherent to every ability score at level 11, and probably has a +6 Wis item, giving him 17 Wis before shenanigans. He's optimized, remember. Besides the fact that Wis in D&D represents spatial awareness more than anything else.

[Angelalex242]

Well, clerics are servants of their god, so putting up with the furniture is just a minor sacrifice to gain further favor with their god.

As for would a god do that? Most gods take messing with things in their divinely morphic home planes as a personal insult. So slapping a mere mortal who tries to mess with their home plane is quite kosher. That's essentially picking a fight with the god at that point, and the wizard's on his own.

Now, if the cleric was in a temple on the prime, no, the god wouldn't do that. But we're talking about the god's divinely morphic home plane, so yeah, the god would do that.

As for miracles?

You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

A miracle can do any of the following things.
•Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
•Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
•Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
•Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.

Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.
•Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
•Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
•Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.

In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost

5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).

Now then. That's when you cast a miracle from the prime material plane. Somehow, I think it works a bit better if you're in your god's divinely morphic home plane. Common sense, and all. (And since it's asking the god to do something, well, if a god wants to teleport somebody to his home plane, pretty sure he can do it pretty easily.)

Alternatively, the god can just undo the wizard's genesis spell base of operations. Take the whole thing apart with an SDA. Cause, ya know, god, what're YOU gonna do about Mr. Wizard?

As for the teleportation function of Wish...

•Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

So it's subject to both a will save and spell resistance.

Assuming the deity can't block it with Area Divine Shield and/or Alter Reality. Which, ya know, it probably can. Not to mention Alter Reality or Power of Luck on that Will Save. Of which the optimized Cleric already has a ridiculous will save. (Whatever the wizard's intelligence score is, the Cleric's wisdom score will the be the same number...and the cleric gets that to his will save.)

[ahenobarbi]

Now then. That's when you cast a miracle from the prime material plane. Somehow, I think it works a bit better if you're in your god's divinely morphic home plane. Common sense, and all.

Citation needed.


(And since it's asking the god to do something, well, if a god wants to teleport somebody to his home plane, pretty sure he can do it pretty easily.)

Citation needed.


Alternatively, the god can just undo the wizard's genesis spell base of operations. Take the whole thing apart with an SDA.

Citation needed.


Assuming the deity can't block it with Area Divine Shield and/or Alter Reality.

Wish explicitly ignores local conditions so those wouldn't help.

Also you're kind of removing cleric from the duel and making it "a wizard vs a god". Sounds like acknowledging the cleric would loose in your opinion :smallcool:

[Thanatosia]

Reading the other posts, esp in regaurds to miracle and retreating to the Clerics God's plane, I've come to a conclusion:

Wizard automatically wins on a technicality because the rules for the fight is 1v1, and the cleric knowing and being able to cast any spells requires the intervention of an outside entity beyond the scope spell-summoned minions (his diety), thus violating the 1v1 rule and a forfeit.

[AMFV]

Citation needed.
Also you're kind of removing cleric from the duel and making it "a wizard vs a god". Sounds like acknowledging the cleric would loose in your opinion :smallcool:

This is definitely true, and it is very clear that for the cleric to win he must be able to replicate the tricks of the wizard, which is possible, though difficult. It is definitely possible for them to come to a stalemate, in fact at high level optimization, the most likely outcome between equally talented opponents is a stalemate. Wish can be overcome by a contingent teleport back to your home base, since that's a pretty good method of dealing with it.

In fact they've now blown a ninth level spell and you've spent only a sixth and a fourth. So the cleric is clearly better off in that exchange. Of course the wizard would then have to cast wish again, but at that point it's the cleric's turn and he can cast wish, forcing the wizard into his own plane.

This is why they choose not to encounter each other, because this is clearly MAD, once one of them act the other is stuck in a loop where they have to put themselves at a disadvantage.

Additionally, an AMF blocks the wish method handily, and a Cheater of Mystra is absolutely going to have that persisted. So with only marginal optimization it can be made so that the cleric is immune to that, while a wizard is still subject to it. It's one of the only tricks the cleric can beat the wizard at.


Reading the other posts, esp in regaurds to miracle and retreating to the Clerics God's plane, I've come to a conclusion:

Wizard automatically wins on a technicality because the rules for the fight is 1v1, and the cleric knowing and being able to cast any spells requires the intervention of an outside entity beyond the scope spell-summoned minions (his diety), thus violating the 1v1 rule and a forfeit.

We've presented several scenarios where the cleric can win without miracle. Furthermore, that conclusion was only come to by a single poster, who did not represent the OP, and as such we cannot assume that would be involved in the conflict.

Additionally as we've demonstrated, the cleric winds up being not better off if the God intervenes, at best it's a demiplane vs. plane war.



Assuming the deity can't block it with Area Divine Shield and/or Alter Reality. Which, ya know, it probably can. Not to mention Alter Reality or Power of Luck on that Will Save. Of which the optimized Cleric already has a ridiculous will save. (Whatever the wizard's intelligence score is, the Cleric's wisdom score will the be the same number...and the cleric gets that to his will save.)

An AMF does the same much more easily, and a cheater of Mystra can cast it. Without even needing to involve their deity.

[sjeshin]

I am curious as to who would win in a 1v1 battle.

Assume the standard material is allowed, and assume the standard cheese and such is banned (Incantatrix, Dragon Magazine material, etc). Lastly, assume that both characters know of the upcoming battle and can prepare somewhat.

Let me hear your thoughts. :)

Opinion, Cleric. Divine metamagic, divine defiance, Cleric 10 / Church Inquisitor 10 (with more time maybe more prestige classes but you don't need them.)

With the correct feats, you can counter 1 spell a round as an immediate action, with no preporation or readied actions, and take 10 on the caster level check (with the correct domains to qualify for that feat).
You have immunity to charms, compulsion, and possession.
You have a fighter's base attack bonus ( divine might) crazy strength, travel devotion for full attacks after movement.
You can make a melee touch attack to force the wizard out of any polymorph style spell.
And of course, ice axe, with power attack. Hitting melee touch 2d10+10+40 per attack.
It's a lot of feats, flaws must be used, but you have enough turn attempts for one to two buffs, and a few immediate action counterspells. No matter what cheese they have, if you use that feat, you will counter that spell. So i see it as, Wizard uses Celerity... you counter it, or his first real action, and then wreck the wizard. Any holes in that? (besides luck)

[ryu]

Opinion, Cleric. Divine metamagic, divine defiance, Cleric 10 / Church Inquisitor 10 (with more time maybe more prestige classes but you don't need them.)

With the correct feats, you can counter 1 spell a round as an immediate action, with no preporation or readied actions, and take 10 on the caster level check (with the correct domains to qualify for that feat).
You have immunity to charms, compulsion, and possession.
You have a fighter's base attack bonus ( divine might) crazy strength, travel devotion for full attacks after movement.
You can make a melee touch attack to force the wizard out of any polymorph style spell.
And of course, ice axe, with power attack. Hitting melee touch 2d10+10+40 per attack.
It's a lot of feats, flaws must be used, but you have enough turn attempts for one to two buffs, and a few immediate action counterspells. No matter what cheese they have, if you use that feat, you will counter that spell. So i see it as, Wizard uses Celerity... you counter it, or his first real action, and then wreck the wizard. Any holes in that? (besides luck)

Crafted contingent spells activated with mental non-actions. You think the wizard is only throwing one win button at you per round? Cute.

[Karnith]

It's a lot of feats, flaws must be used, but you have enough turn attempts for one to two buffs, and a few immediate action counterspells. No matter what cheese they have, if you use that feat, you will counter that spell. So i see it as, Wizard uses Celerity... you counter it, or his first real action, and then wreck the wizard. Any holes in that? (besides luck)
Actually engaging in combat with the wizard will be a problem (you're likely looking at defenses like Superior Invisibility + Nondetection, Ironguard, a silly Shapechange form, various immunities from spells and items, and so on; it's really hard to close in combat with a spellcaster who doesn't want to get hit), but you're also depending on counterspelling one spell to be sufficient to stop the Wizard, when there are numerous ways to cast multiple spells per round, even without actions (say, through a Contingency or Contingent Spells).

EDIT: Celerity'd

[sjeshin]

Actually engaging in combat with the wizard will be a problem (you're likely looking at defenses like Superior Invisibility + Nondetection, Ironguard, a silly Shapechange form, various immunities from spells and items, and so on; it's really hard to close in combat with a spellcaster who doesn't want to fight), but you're also depending on counterspelling one spell to be sufficient to stop the Wizard, when there are numerous ways to cast multiple spells per round, even without actions (say, through a Contingency or Contingent Spells).

EDIT: Celerity'd

I'm not forgetting. These things, as has already been said, are available to the Cleric as well. Also, when the cleric takes his actions, his counter spell / dispel magic casts should always be stronger. You can't make the argument well wizard can just do this, if the cleric can as well. I'm pointing out things the cleric can do, that without a dip into a "cleric" / turn undead class, a wizard can't do. If we allow crossing and dipping like that, it's not wizard vs. cleric, it's this guy vs. that guy.

Edit: And evading a cleric with a flight form with good manuverability, and all the other things already mentioned here, who WANTS to fight, will be very difficult as well. Various sights / detect magic permanancy make illusionary stealth all but useless.

[AMFV]

Opinion, Cleric. Divine metamagic, divine defiance, Cleric 10 / Church Inquisitor 10 (with more time maybe more prestige classes but you don't need them.)

With the correct feats, you can counter 1 spell a round as an immediate action, with no preporation or readied actions, and take 10 on the caster level check (with the correct domains to qualify for that feat).
You have immunity to charms, compulsion, and possession.
You have a fighter's base attack bonus ( divine might) crazy strength, travel devotion for full attacks after movement.
You can make a melee touch attack to force the wizard out of any polymorph style spell.
And of course, ice axe, with power attack. Hitting melee touch 2d10+10+40 per attack.
It's a lot of feats, flaws must be used, but you have enough turn attempts for one to two buffs, and a few immediate action counterspells. No matter what cheese they have, if you use that feat, you will counter that spell. So i see it as, Wizard uses Celerity... you counter it, or his first real action, and then wreck the wizard. Any holes in that? (besides luck)

But you don't really have a way to boost your caster level in fact several of the feats you've taken deplete it, which will make your counterspelling not even remotely a sure thing. Secondly you still have no way to escape the contingent teleport. The Wizard isn't going to cast celerity and then bring the thunder. He's going to Plane Shift or teleport away, then bring the thunder from an immeasurable distance.

Also wizards could use swift invisibility to make it very difficult to find them, or mundane hiding if necessary, although the clerics can use this, your trick, still requires you to be in the same plane, and that's not how optimized 20th level combat goes.

[sjeshin]

Crafted contingent spells activated with mental non-actions. You think the wizard is only throwing one win button at you per round? Cute.

Why are you being rude and condescending to someone who gave an opinion? This entire thread is full of people pointing out that clerics are capable of contingency shenanigans.

[Emperor Tippy]

Persistent Selective AMF (which both the Wizard and Cleric should have up) makes anything dependent upon buffs and getting into melee range idiotic.

There is no way to keep your buffs up upon entering an AMF. If you cast them inside the AMF with something like Initiate of Mystra then they will stay up but if cast outside of it you can't keep them up upon entering it.

Persistent Ironguard added onto that makes metal weapons worthless. It can be worked around but its a limitation.

Hide Life in the case of the wizard (a Cleric would have to get it from a scroll) means that he is never going to die to HP damage or save or die spells.

Persistent Selective Dwemer of Transference combined with the feat Wild Talent can be cast by both the Cleric and the Wizard and makes them totally immune to all magic cast on them by anyone but themselves.

Mind Blank + Persistent Superior Invisibility is something that the wizard can do (the Cleric can't do it out of native resources) and makes it very difficult for the Cleric to localize the Wizard.

At equal optimization levels the Wizard will win most of the time but its done by stacking abilities and contingencies ten or more layers deep.

Honestly it comes down to who can plan better. IC that should usually be the wizard thanks to higher Intelligence but OOC that is really dependent upon the players.

[sjeshin]

But you don't really have a way to boost your caster level in fact several of the feats you've taken deplete it, which will make your counterspelling not even remotely a sure thing. Secondly you still have no way to escape the contingent teleport. The Wizard isn't going to cast celerity and then bring the thunder. He's going to Plane Shift or teleport away, then bring the thunder from an immeasurable distance.

Also wizards could use swift invisibility to make it very difficult to find them, or mundane hiding if necessary, although the clerics can use this, your trick, still requires you to be in the same plane, and that's not how optimized 20th level combat goes.

The OP said a duel. If you're just going to run way, it's not a duel. Teleporting out of range of melee i understand, but AGAIN clerics can do this as well. They are capable of contengency shenanigans... wizards don't have a monopoly on this at all. Secondly, no, my dispel checks would be outrageous. 4 from inquisition domain, take ten on the roll, caster lvl would be full 20 with greater dispel magic... how can you say that the caster level is depleted?

[Karnith]

The OP said a duel. If you're just going to run way, it's not a duel. Teleporting out of range of melee i understand, but AGAIN clerics can do this as well. They are capable of contengency shenanigans... wizards don't have a monopoly on this at all. Secondly, no, my dispel checks would be outrageous. 4 from inquisition domain, take ten on the roll, caster lvl would be full 20 with greater dispel magic... how can you say that the caster level is depleted?
Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic both have maximum caster level bonuses to their dispel checks (+10 and +20, respectively). It is pretty easy (for either side) to get a CL much higher than 20, meaning that without a significant bonus to dispel checks, Greater Dispel Magic stops being an effective option as caster levels scale. In your example, by taking 10 you'd get a result of 34 (10+20+4) on your Dispel checks. Since the DC is 11 + the opposing caster level, they only need to boost their caster level by a bit over 20 for you to fail. Yes, there are ways around this.

[Emperor Tippy]

Edit: And evading a cleric with a flight form with good manuverability, and all the other things already mentioned here, who WANTS to fight, will be very difficult as well. Various sights / detect magic permanancy make illusionary stealth all but useless.

90 ft. perfect maneuverability thanks to Shadesteel Golem form and Mind Blank totally shuts down See Invisibility, Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, True Seeing, and pretty much every other divination.

Most of the ways around Mind Blank + Superior Invisibility aren't available easily to a cleric. Being a Shadesteel Golem and having Telepathy Block up knocks out Lifesense and Mindsight, and after those are gone it gets to be a royal pain.

[ryu]

Why are you being rude and condescending to someone who gave an opinion? This entire thread is full of people pointing out that clerics are capable of contingency shenanigans.

You and I have very different standards for what constitutes rude. At any rate I'm dismissive of your dispelling tactic primarily because at this level of optimization hundreds if not thousands of spells per turn can be set to fly. Now you can make the argument that with enough effort your cleric can play that game. At that point though your dispel tactic loses almost literally all statistical significance in this fight and you've built around it as a primary combat trick.

[AMFV]

The OP said a duel. If you're just going to run way, it's not a duel. Teleporting out of range of melee i understand, but AGAIN clerics can do this as well. They are capable of contengency shenanigans... wizards don't have a monopoly on this at all. Secondly, no, my dispel checks would be outrageous. 4 from inquisition domain, take ten on the roll, caster lvl would be full 20 with greater dispel magic... how can you say that the caster level is depleted?

Ah, I was confusing your build with one utilizing mage slayer feats. Suffice it to say that dropping Polymorph is very unlikely to end the battle. Even if you can reach them, the Wizard particularly could play as a Dire Tortoise and go first.

Secondly, Teleporting to a different plane and then fighting from there is a perfectly valid tactic, particularly in a more high OP system. Sporting, no. But playing fair does not leading to winning.

[Eldariel]

90 ft. perfect maneuverability thanks to Shadesteel Golem form and Mind Blank totally shuts down See Invisibility, Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, True Seeing, and pretty much every other divination.

Most of the ways around Mind Blank + Superior Invisibility aren't available easily to a cleric. Being a Shadesteel Golem and having Telepathy Block up knocks out Lifesense and Mindsight, and after those are gone it gets to be a royal pain.

Well, Elemental Weird through Poly/Shapechange/Gate could, I suppose, abuse infinite COPs to do it. Slight edge to Cleric, I suppose, that you can't lose Wisdom for failed COPs tho ultimately if characters are competently made, that shouldn't matter.

You could also abuse Hauntshift, I think, though that only works on a restricted area. It's not as useful on a strategic scale. Arcane Sight might or might not detect AMF; Superior Invis doesn't actually negate Blindsight (though that's only tactical level and of course, Darkstalker does that easily enough).

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, Elemental Weird through Poly/Shapechange/Gate could, I suppose, abuse infinite COPs to do it. Slight edge to Cleric, I suppose, that you can't lose Wisdom for failed COPs tho ultimately if characters are competently made, that shouldn't matter.

You could also abuse Hauntshift, I think, though that only works on a restricted area. It's not as useful on a strategic scale. Arcane Sight might or might not detect AMF;
There exist methods of detecting such a creature, they are just very finicky and difficult to use successfully in combat.


Superior Invis doesn't actually negate Blindsight (though that's only tactical level and of course, Darkstalker does that easily enough).
"While invisible, the subject exudes no scent and is undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight."

Page 125 of Spell Compendium.

[Eldariel]

"While invisible, the subject exudes no scent and is undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight."

Page 125 of Spell Compendium.

Oh wow, sorry. I was apparently thinking of the CArc version of the spell.

[Psyren]

The Cleric can get both celerity and Time Stop with Anyspell and the Time Domain respectively.

So far Schrodinger's Cleric has:

Animal/Scalykind Domain for Shapechange
Time Domain for Contingency
Spell Domain for Celerity
Envy Domain for Wish
Travel Domain for Teleport/Fly
Rune Domain for Planar Binding
Magic Domain so he can use items he has no way of making himself.

And there's talk of PrCing him into Church Inquisitor for Inquisition + the counterspell stuff, which means the Wizard gets to PrC too, and that is yet another arms race the Cleric is highly unlikely to win. Oh, and he has to worship Mystra for the Initiate of Mystra feat that won't actually protect him from anything meaningful, while somehow also worshiping Shar for Shadow Adept and ugh.

[ryu]

So far Schrodinger's Cleric has:

Animal/Scalykind Domain for Shapechange
Time Domain for Contingency
Spell Domain for Celerity
Envy Domain for Wish
Travel Domain for Teleport/Fly
Rune Domain for Planar Binding
Magic Domain so he can use items he has no way of making himself.

And there's talk of PrCing him into Church Inquisitor for Inquisition + the counterspell stuff, which means the Wizard gets to PrC too, and that is yet another arms race the Cleric is highly unlikely to win. Oh, and he has to worship Mystra for the Initiate of Mystra feat that won't actually protect him from anything meaningful, while somehow also worshiping Shar for Shadow Adept and ugh.

Does 3.5 have some rule I forgot about where clerics could worship all gods simultaneously including those with opposing dogmas? Especially those with opposing dogmas?

[Zanos]

Well, Elemental Weird through Poly/Shapechange/Gate could, I suppose, abuse infinite COPs to do it. Slight edge to Cleric, I suppose, that you can't lose Wisdom for failed COPs tho ultimately if characters are competently made, that shouldn't matter.
If you use CoP to "gather information" about a mind blanked creature, it fails. It's still a divination effect even if you use it as a supernatural ability.

[eggynack]

So far Schrodinger's Cleric has:

Animal/Scalykind Domain for Shapechange
Time Domain for Contingency
Spell Domain for Celerity
Envy Domain for Wish
Travel Domain for Teleport/Fly
Rune Domain for Planar Binding
Magic Domain so he can use items he has no way of making himself.

Are you sure he needs all of those to get all that stuff? Some quantity of it can probably be filled by the magic domain, and some quantity of the rest can probably be filled by the spell domain. I don't know if you can efficiently hit all of it, but still. You could even rock some quantity of combination, using the spell domain to pick up teleport/fly, making an item of teleport/fly, and using the magic domain to use it later. It does look like some degree of schrodingering is occurring though.

[AMFV]

So far Schrodinger's Cleric has:

Animal/Scalykind Domain for Shapechange
Time Domain for Contingency
Spell Domain for Celerity
Envy Domain for Wish
Travel Domain for Teleport/Fly
Rune Domain for Planar Binding
Magic Domain so he can use items he has no way of making himself.

And there's talk of PrCing him into Church Inquisitor for Inquisition + the counterspell stuff, which means the Wizard gets to PrC too, and that is yet another arms race the Cleric is highly unlikely to win. Oh, and he has to worship Mystra for the Initiate of Mystra feat that won't actually protect him from anything meaningful, while somehow also worshiping Shar for Shadow Adept and ugh.

Mystra gives him the Magic Domain, furthermore he can get the items through Miracle. You could easily make it a sovereign speaker. For Contingency we take Craft Contingent Item, which is superior in almost all respects in any case.

Anyspell can do almost all of the above, except for Shapechange which may be overrated anyways.

The problem is that the difference between a 50 Kiloton Nuke and a 30 Kiloton Nuke isn't that much in actual practice. Both characters are able to break the game as we've demonstrated. If neither of them is Pun Pun, they are artificially reducing their capabilities, since that is the case, it depends on which character is willing to pull out which stops.

[HaikenEdge]

Mystra gives him the Magic Domain, furthermore he can get the items through Miracle. You could easily make it a sovereign speaker. For Contingency we take Craft Contingent Item, which is superior in almost all respects in any case.

I'm sorry, but unless Mystra is now an Eberron deity, how exactly can you both Mystra and Sovereign Speaker?

[Eldariel]

If you use CoP to "gather information" about a mind blanked creature, it fails. It's still a divination effect even if you use it as a supernatural ability.

You're not targeting. Only participants in COP are you and the deity/whatever you're talking to. Mind Blank does nothing about it.

[Zanos]

Are you sure he needs all of those to get all that stuff? Some quantity of it can probably be filled by the magic domain, and some quantity of the rest can probably be filled by the spell domain. I don't know if you can efficiently hit all of it, but still. You could even rock some quantity of combination, using the spell domain to pick up teleport/fly, making an item of teleport/fly, and using the magic domain to use it later. It does look like some degree of schrodingering is occurring though.

Greater Anyspell allows duplication of 5th or lower arcane spells in domain slots only. With intiate of mystra you can cast the anyspells from regular slots, too. Miracle allows for EXP free duplication of 7th level or lower arcane spells. If you want 8ths/9ths you need to pick them up off of domain lists, so you're still going to need to pick up Time Stop, Shapechange, and Genesis.

You can replicate spells with the magic domain power by casting them from scrolls assuming you can boost your arcane caster level up to 17 for the purposes of activating them, but then you're going to be limited to WBL for how many Pit Fiends/Ice Assassins/Solars you can have, while the wizard is only limited by time.


You're not targeting. Only participants in COP are you and the deity/whatever you're talking to. Mind Blank does nothing about it.
None of the language of mind blank requires that you be targeted. You are using CoP to gather information about a creature with a divination effect, which is explicitly what mind blank prevents from happening.

[eggynack]

As another note, aren't deific planes fairly, y'know, known and accessible? Wizardly demi-planes derive a lot of their power from how difficult it is to find and access them, but for the regular deity plane, I figure that it'd be a hell of a lot easier to do that stuff. More accurately, it'd be a hell of a lot easier for a never ending sequence of astral projections and ice assassins to enter the plane, deity or no deity. It's a plan that might work eventually.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anyspell can do almost all of the above, except for Shapechange which may be overrated anyways.
...
Shapechange is one XP free Wish per round. Shapechange is standard action Greater Teleport without having to spend a spell slot. Shapechange is thousand mile Telepathy (and thus thousand mile Mindsight). Shapechange is being a Shadesteel Golem and thus a 120 ft. (after Cloud Wings is applied) perfect fly speed, immunity to every spell that requires SR, and all other construct immunities. Need I continue?

The only spells that top Shapechange for power are Ice Assassin and Simulacrum and even then that is only if you don't use Shapechange to Wish up scrolls of Ice Assassin of whatever creature you want to use.


The problem is that the difference between a 50 Kiloton Nuke and a 30 Kiloton Nuke isn't that much in actual practice. Both characters are able to break the game as we've demonstrated. If neither of them is Pun Pun, they are artificially reducing their capabilities, since that is the case, it depends on which character is willing to pull out which stops.
Or Pun-Pun already exists and has created an ability called "There can be only one." that prevents any other creature from ever getting Manipulate Form as an ability. Or the various deities have their portfolio sense triggered up to a month or so in advance and just kill anyone or anything that is thinking of going Pun-Pun.

[AMFV]

...
Shapechange is one XP free Wish per round. Shapechange is standard action Greater Teleport without having to spend a spell slot. Shapechange is thousand mile Telepathy (and thus thousand mile Mindsight). Shapechange is being a Shadesteel Golem and thus a 120 ft. (after Cloud Wings is applied) perfect fly speed, immunity to every spell that requires SR, and all other construct immunities. Need I continue?

The only spells that top Shapechange for power are Ice Assassin and Simulacrum and even then that is only if you don't use Shapechange to Wish up scrolls of Ice Assassin of whatever creature you want to use.
.

I wasn't trying to malign Shapechange, just suggesting that you could build a game breaking build without it. It's certainly useful though. I suspect that all builds at that point would be game breaking.

[Eldariel]

None of the language of mind blank requires that you be targeted. You are using CoP to gather information about a creature with a divination effect, which is explicitly what mind blank prevents from happening.

That's an awfully broad reading of the effect; COP/Commune/such are only used to "gather" information in a very roundabout terminology. Rather, the effect of the spell isn't "gain information about target" but "gain answer to questions X, Y & Z".

The fact that you happen to ask Question X that pertains to a Mind Blanked target seems rather irrelevant to the functioning of the spell as a whole. More likely it'd be a problem if the subject is immune to Portfolio Sense but thankfully that's much harder to come by.

[Zanos]

That's an awfully broad reading of the effect; COP/Commune/such are only used to "gather" information in a very roundabout terminology. Rather, the effect of the spell isn't "gain information about target" but "gain answer to questions X, Y & Z".
Asking someone else about a person is certainly gathering information about them. In fact, there's even a skill and a listed DC for asking people mundanely about someone called Gather Information. In this case you're gathering information about a person by asking a deity several questions with a divination spell. That fits the description of what mind blank blocks.

The spell itself is worded very broadly. I consider it odd that you don't consider asking someone else about a person gathering any information on them, but you're free to read the spell as you choose.

[Perseus]

What's great is I can see the duel happening because a Chaotic-Bastard Bard back when all three was level 1convinced both the cleric and wizard that they hated each other...

While the two plan out how they are going to kill each other the Bard is busy taking over the country/world.

Edit: Mindblank can specifically be defeated by a level 9 psionic power... Forget which one but I think it isn't on the general list but one of the specialties.

[Karnith]

Edit: Mindblank can specifically be defeated by a level 9 psionic power... Forget which one but I think it isn't on the general list but one of the specialties.
Do you mean Shatter Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/shatterMindBlank.htm), or are you talking about a power with its own effect that specifically bypasses Mind Blank (e.g. Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm))?

EDIT: My edit got swordsage'd. That's an odd occurrence.

[Zanos]

What's great is I can see the duel happening because a Chaotic-Bastard Bard back when all three was level 1convinced both the cleric and wizard that they hated each other...

While the two plan out how they are going to kill each other the Bard is busy taking over the country/world.

Edit: Mindblank can specifically be defeated by a level 9 psionic power... Forget which one but I think it isn't on the general list but one of the specialties.

You're thinking of metafaculty. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) I think I mentioned it early, but neither Wizard or Cleric can access it without hoops.

[Threadnaught]

What "war between deities?" He's fighting a wizard, not an enemy cleric. A wizard who, if left unchecked, can go on to enslave other deities or otherwise run amok since his powers can't be taken away by his own patron.

The cold war between Deities that exists in most settings, would heat up very quickly if one thought the life of a single servant was important enough to save directly. Opposing Deities who want the servant to die in order to affect the first Deity's power and influence, wouldn't take too kindly to them breaking the ceasefire by tossing a few nukes at some mortal somewhere. It's a small step from protecting your own high priest and helping your high priest assassinate another Deity's high priest while converting all their followers. At least, it is in the eyes of a paranoid Deity.


And your own strategy for the wizard is just proving my point. Devouring souls to pump up his HD? There's a number of deities that would get cheesed off at that.

Actually, being able to cast in DMZs and AMFs isn't as optimal as building a Lesser Pun Pun. The Cleric would have one of the Domains that grants Shapechange and would also be doing this. Optimized remember?

Core only, there are effectively 98 types of Wizards, of these 26 will never be able to cast Shapechange. As soon as we leave Core, we open up Unearthed Arcana (and include the Elven Substitution levels) and there are now over 5460 kinds of Wizards, approximately 1352 cannot Shapechange. Meaning 4108 Wizards have the ability to cast Shapechange should they choose to at 17th level or higher.
I just checked a list of Cleric Domains and the Domains that allow Clerics to cast Shapechange are Alteration, Animal, Scalykind and Transformation. I'm unsure how many combinations of Cleric and Domain exist however, there's Positive/Negative Energy Channelling, Deity Worship and a few ACFs to take into account.
What I do know, is that there would be a dramatically smaller number of Clerics capable of casting Shapechange. This group would most likely be comparable to the number of Wizards who can't.



What would happen if the Wizard hid on his own Demiplane, spammed Ice Assassins of themselves, put Death Throes on every single one of them and Wished them all to the Deity's home plane?
The optimal thing for a Cleric to do, would be to not rely on another Creature for their powers.


Tippy, is this what it's like in your head? I like it.

[Perseus]

Do you mean Shatter Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/shatterMindBlank.htm), or are you talking about a power with its own effect that specifically bypasses Mind Blank (e.g. Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm))?

EDIT: My edit got swordsage'd. That's an odd occurrence.

Metafaculty


You're thinking of metafaculty. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) I think I mentioned it early, but neither Wizard or Cleric can access it without hoops.

These here are TO, aren't hoops required? Isn't there rules for creating your own domain (cleric or wizard domain)

But really I think the easiest thing for the cleric to do is just kill Mystraa (hey, 4e did it...) and then make sure said wizard is within melee range.

No magic and melee range? Cleric.

Though it strikes me as a bit funny that thinking about killing a god is the easiest way to kill the wizard...

;p

[Eldariel]

Asking someone else about a person is certainly gathering information about them. In fact, there's even a skill and a listed DC for asking people mundanely about someone called Gather Information. In this case you're gathering information about a person by asking a deity several questions with a divination spell. That fits the description of what mind blank blocks.

The spell itself is worded very broadly. I consider it odd that you don't consider asking someone else about a person gathering any information on them, but you're free to read the spell as you choose.

Mostly I'm just thinking the effect; how would Mind Blank stop Contact Other Plane exactly? It can't stop the casting; that has nothing to do with the targeted creature. It can't stop the question/contact; its domain is not blocking interplanar communication (or communication in general). Therefore the only thing it could really affect is the deity's answer; so for Mind Blank to block COP it would either need to be impossible for a deity to be able to answer a question regarding the warded subject (regardless of the fact that Mind Blank blocks little of deity's abilities, let alone their unrelated knowledge) or mind control a deity into not being able to answer the question (and it's not even an enchantment, let alone one that could affect a deity).

So, I just don't see it; I don't see how it's possible for any part of Contact Other Plane to fail on account of Mind Blank. Mind Blank does not affect other creatures, it only affects the warded creature. As such, for Mind Blank to have any effect at all, a spell needs to be cast at the creature. COP casting simply establishes a mental link with an outer deity, rather than affect a creature with Mind Blank in any way.


And to whoever was asking, the power is Metafaculty. There's also Shatter Mind Blank among other things. But that's Psionics; high level Psionics are hard for casters to access (albeit not quite impossible, of course).

[eggynack]

Core only, there are effectively 98 types of Wizards, of these 26 will never be able to cast Shapechange. As soon as we leave Core, we open up Unearthed Arcana (and include the Elven Substitution levels) and there are now over 5460 kinds of Wizards, approximately 1352 cannot Shapechange. Meaning 4108 Wizards have the ability to cast Shapechange should they choose to at 17th level or higher.
I just checked a list of Cleric Domains and the Domains that allow Clerics to cast Shapechange are Alteration, Animal, Scalykind and Transformation. I'm unsure how many combinations of Cleric and Domain exist however, there's Positive/Negative Energy Channelling, Deity Worship and a few ACFs to take into account.
What I do know, is that there would be a dramatically smaller number of Clerics capable of casting Shapechange. This group would most likely be comparable to the number of Wizards who can't.


Does it really matter what the average wizard or cleric would look like? This is an optimized wizard or cleric, which means no mind paid to suboptimal choices, whatever they are. That means that the wizard will absolutely not be an evoker banning conjuration and transmutation, and the cleric will absolutely not have the fire and destruction domains, or prepare infinite cure spells. In other words, all outcomes are not equally likely. If a cleric with shapechange is the optimal form for a cleric to have, then that's the form he will have.

[Zanos]

Mostly I'm just thinking the effect; how would Mind Blank stop Contact Other Plane exactly? It can't stop the casting; that has nothing to do with the targeted creature. It can't stop the question/contact; its domain is not blocking interplanar communication (or communication in general). Therefore the only thing it could really affect is the deity's answer; so for Mind Blank to block COP it would either need to be impossible for a deity to be able to answer a question regarding the warded subject (regardless of the fact that Mind Blank blocks little of deity's abilities, let alone their unrelated knowledge) or mind control a deity into not being able to answer the question (and it's not even an enchantment, let alone one that could affect a deity).

So, I just don't see it; I don't see how it's possible for any part of Contact Other Plane to fail on account of Mind Blank. Mind Blank does not affect other creatures, it only affects the warded creature. As such, for Mind Blank to have any effect at all, a spell needs to be cast at the creature. COP casting simply establishes a mental link with an outer deity, rather than affect a creature with Mind Blank in any way.


And to whoever was asking, the power is Metafaculty. There's also Shatter Mind Blank among other things. But that's Psionics; high level Psionics are hard for casters to access (albeit not quite impossible, of course).
Perhaps it would suffice to say that a wizard did it? (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/02)

Really though, as soon as you start trying to explain how a lot of things work by RAW stuff gets weird. RAW Mind Blank defeats Contact Other Plane, but how it does that is a question for later when I'm sitting out my lawn chair with a rifle and some catnip.

I could argue that mindblank "erases" the target from the background of divination magic, making it impossible to mention them across it's effects. It doesn't stop the deity from knowing about them, but they can't use the magical link of the divination spell to speak about them, so when they do the recipient gets only static or just no reply.

[Angelalex242]

...there's very little a deity can't do. So unless there's some kind of agreement of all the gods that thou shalt never speak of the mind blanked, mindblank just isn't enough to defeat what a god knows.

[Zanos]

...there's very little a deity can't do. So unless there's some kind of agreement of all the gods that thou shalt never speak of the mind blanked, mindblank just isn't enough to defeat what a god knows.
I'm going to pull a feather out of someone else's hat and just say:

Citation Needed.

There are rules for Deities. They are not omnipotent.

[ryu]

I'm going to pull a feather out of someone else's hat and just say:

Citation Needed.

There are rules for Deities. They are not omnipotent.

I should know. I've had campaigns where I've personally murdered them. The jump in power isn't even that much compared to the average well made enemy spellcaster. Granted I usually have to increase my usual preparations and cautions ten times over, but that's just more bookkeeping.

[Angelalex242]

I'm not as versed on splatbooks and whatever as many of you, so there's probably somebody with higher knowledge D&D then I have who can make such citations, but I'm not that guy.

The only citation I've really got for you is 'common sense says no.'

[Psyren]

There are rules for Deities. They are not omnipotent.

They're close enough. DaD sidebar:


DEITIES AND SPELLCASTING

As characters of around 60th level, deities can freely pay even huge XP costs. Consider that a deity has a safe cushion of around 30,000 XP it can use every week for creating magic items and casting spells with experience point costs.

What happens when a deity casts miracle? Rather than imploring another deity to perform some task, the deity simply draws from its own divine power. It pays the experience point cost with hardly a second thought, and creates the effect it desires.

There's no restrictions on what a deity's miracle can accomplish other than being limited to 6/week, and there's no gatekeeper entity that can deny their request.