Tiny creatures and flanking

[ddude987]

Can tiny creatures flank? I have a player that wants to be a tibbit that is always in cat form, giving him 0 ft. reach, and wants to be a rogue. If they can't flank by default, any suggestions on how to allow flanking without being to powerful?

[holywhippet]

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm:


Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

I suppose you'd need some way of giving them a reach attack.

[The Viscount]

You could certainly steer your player toward underfoot combat and confound the big folk as a way to get SA against most targets, but two feats are pretty pricey.

[Metahuman1]

Drop him a custom slotless item of either perpetual or on demand Persist Blade spell. It's a 1st lvl sorcerer/wizard spell form spell compendium. It creates a little dagger made out of force that attacks designated targets for 1d4 force damage a round independently.

But here's the important part. It automatically sets up flanks. Since it's a spell, it's not a big stretch to rule it can still make it so it flanks with a Tiny sized creature.

[Drachasor]

A Spiked Chain would allow weapon finesse and flanking. Same with any other reach weapon.

He takes up 1/4 of a square. So an optional rule...
1. Each square is made up of 4 sub-squares.
2. Small and Medium creatures have reach over adjacent sub-squares.
3. Tiny creatures can move into the closest of such adjacent squares to flank creatures. This provokes an AoO normally and can be avoided the same way. A "5 foot step" can move you from a far square to a close square.

That said, a custom reach weapon that allows finesse or a spiked chain is probably easiest.

[holywhippet]

I don't see how a Tibbit in cat form can wield a spiked chain.

[Drachasor]

I don't see how a Tibbit in cat form can wield a spiked chain.

Yeah, I missed that. Hmm, much harder then.

Edit: Some sort of custom enchantment or wondrous item that allows you to use a weapon telekineticly or creates hands perhaps.

[bekeleven]

Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach

Have fun with those reach weapons.

[Malak'ai]

Have fun with those reach weapons.

I'd love to see the reach weapon that doubles a 0ft reach :smallamused:.

[Drachasor]

Must be remembering the 3.0 rules where they'd get a reach of 5' with them, IIRC.

Perfectly reasonable house rule to allow that.

[Jeff the Green]

The only thing I can think of that's applicable to the Monstrous Humanoid tibbit is Willing Deformity + Deformity (tall). Requires you to be evil, but gives you +5' reach.

[Crake]

are tibbits shapechangers? does that qualify them for warshaper? with their reach ability

[ddude987]

Yeah it qualifies them. Thanks for all the answers. I think I would allow reach weapons to grant 5' reach, regardless of rules. The only way I can think of holding them is the mouthweapon enhancement from lords of madness.

[Sith_Happens]

Island of Blades stance might work.


If both you and an ally are adjacent to the same creature, the two of you gain the benefit for flanking that opponent.

Accessible through a one level dip or two feats.

[Flickerdart]

Mouthpick enchantment allows a weapon to be wielded with a mouth that can normally make a bite attack

[Baroknik]

The only thing I can think of that's applicable to the Monstrous Humanoid tibbit is Willing Deformity + Deformity (tall). Requires you to be evil, but gives you +5' reach.

There are aberrant feats to give reach as well, to avoid the evil kitty conundrum

[Fax Celestis]

A Spiked Chain would allow weapon finesse and flanking. Same with any other reach weapon.

No it wouldn't.

Reach weapons double your natural reach. 0'*2=0'.

It is one of the RAWdiculous things that come along with Tiny and smaller creatures in combat.

[georgie_leech]

In the same vein as reach weapons, what about Whips? They're dysfunctional in the other direction; 15' reach, regardless of size.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe it would be easier to go in another direction to get sneak attacks. Find a way to stay invisible (or quickly regain invisibility) for example. Maybe get a ring of blinking later on. Up that bluff skill for feinting. Stuff like that.

[Barstro]

any suggestions on how to allow flanking without being to powerful?

Does he need to flank, or just have the enemy lose dex to AC?

I've always felt that flanking shouldn't be from the point of view of the attacker, but a condition on the defender.
Given this diagram;
123
4X6
789

I don't see why attackers at just 2 and 8 get to flank, but attacker at 2, 7, 9 do not. The defender is equally distracted.I think a decent house rule is that if anyone is flanking a defender, he has the condition of "flanked", and everyone gets +2 to hit and possibility for sneak attack damage.

Other option;
Just house rule that if anyone else is in melee, supercat is "lost among the confusion" and gets sneak attack damage. I'd get rid of the +2 to hit as a trade.

[Baroknik]

Consider allowing some of these for him in Cat form
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c

EDIT: forgot to paste link

[AstralFire]

Never understood why tiny creatures can't flank, anyway. It's not like it's any easier to disregard something attacking you from the other side just because it's small, as past experience with petsitting tells me.

[Fax Celestis]

Never understood why tiny creatures can't flank, anyway. It's not like it's any easier to disregard something attacking you from the other side just because it's small, as past experience with petsitting tells me.

It's because Tiny and smaller creatures don't threaten adjacent squares and can only attack targets they share a square with. Flanking requires you to be on opposite sides of a creature: a Tiny creature on the opposite side of an opponent doesn't threaten, therefore not providing flanking, and a Tiny creature sharing a square with an opponent isn't on the opposite side, therefore not providing flanking, and has to exit the square after making their attack anyway as it's an illegal spot for them to finish their turn.

TL;DR Not only can Tiny creatures not flank, they also can't full-attack, as they have to move into their target's square, make an attack, and move back out. However, this makes them excellent candidates for the Spring Attack feat chain (esp. its PHB-II additions).

To the dysfunction thread!

[AstralFire]

I didn't mean that I don't understand why the rules work the way that they do; I mean that I don't understand why the rules were designed in that way.

[ShurikVch]

Grafts can notably extend reach:
Long Arm - 5', 5000 gp
Whip Tail - 10', 8000 gp
Raking Tentacle - 5', 5000 gp

[ddude987]

Consider allowing some of these for him in Cat form
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c

EDIT: forgot to paste link

That is exactly why he wants to play a cat -_- I just don't want any players to be useless and/or overshadowed. Cat form gives +8 to jump, +4 to climb (i think) and allowed them to be dex based skills. Given that, he would completely overshadow the other rogue in non combat stuff, but not do well at all in combat. What a conundrum, and I have no clue what to do.



Grafts can notably extend reach:
Long Arm - 5', 5000 gp
Whip Tail - 10', 8000 gp
Raking Tentacle - 5', 5000 gp

Just imagining a small house cat with a giant spiky tail that smashes into people. Oh the horror :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

I didn't mean that I don't understand why the rules work the way that they do; I mean that I don't understand why the rules were designed in that way.

Oh, that I can't tell you.

[Icewraith]

It's because Tiny and smaller creatures don't threaten adjacent squares and can only attack targets they share a square with. Flanking requires you to be on opposite sides of a creature: a Tiny creature on the opposite side of an opponent doesn't threaten, therefore not providing flanking, and a Tiny creature sharing a square with an opponent isn't on the opposite side, therefore not providing flanking, and has to exit the square after making their attack anyway as it's an illegal spot for them to finish their turn.

TL;DR Not only can Tiny creatures not flank, they also can't full-attack, as they have to move into their target's square, make an attack, and move back out. However, this makes them excellent candidates for the Spring Attack feat chain (esp. its PHB-II additions).

To the dysfunction thread!

Actually, I'm pretty sure tiny and smaller creatures can share squares with larger creatures. It says they must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee, and they can move INTO OR THROUGH an occupied square. Compare with the rule on the next line, which is that any creature can move THROUGH a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is. A big creature can move THROUGH a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

"Move into" features prominently in the grapple rules, where you must "move into" your opponent's square to maintain a grapple and can do so for free once you grapple your opponent successfully. Considering that moving the grapple is a standard action, you can't otherwise move in a grapple, and a good chunk of the things you can do in a grapple replace attack rolls, it certainly looks like anything that lets you "move into" a square lets you end your movement in an occupied square, as opposed to something that lets you move "through" the creature's square.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, I'm pretty sure tiny and smaller creatures can share squares with larger creatures. It says they must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee, and they can move INTO OR THROUGH an occupied square. Compare with the rule on the next line, which is that any creature can move THROUGH a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is. A big creature can move THROUGH a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

"Move into" features prominently in the grapple rules, where you must "move into" your opponent's square to maintain a grapple and can do so for free once you grapple your opponent successfully. Considering that moving the grapple is a standard action, you can't otherwise move in a grapple, and a good chunk of the things you can do in a grapple replace attack rolls, it certainly looks like anything that lets you "move into" a square lets you end your movement in an occupied square, as opposed to something that lets you move "through" the creature's square.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16551140&postcount=686 for a more detailed reasoning behind this.