Belkars death via the prophecy [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

WolvesbaneIII

2013-12-03, 11:05 PM

so what if belkar dies via the prophecy in the illusion world made by girard.

And the "belkar" as roy knew him drew his last breath in the illusion.

And the oracle can break the 4th wall, so knowing it was an illusion still counts.

And Belkar also has undergone character growth, caring for 2 animal companions, so the old "killemallandletthegodssortemout" belkar no longer exists and now "killmostofemceptfortheorderandmyanimalpals" belker is here to stay.

It was a metaphorical death, not a physical one. Like anakin skywalker and darth vader, just not as drastic.

Though he could still keel over and die in battle or something I dunno.

I apoligize for all spelling errors.

Souhiro

2013-12-04, 03:29 AM

Sadly, the prophecy was "Belkar will draw his last breath -ever- before the end of the year" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/PB7Qobbl4OF31TrFHae.gif)

Many tough that he was about to become a vampire or something, but now it's unlikely, something that cannot eat ("He should enjoy his next birthday cake") nor breath. But now looks that Death's little helper is in Death's wish list, and we cannot do anything to avoid it :(

Chantelune

2013-12-04, 07:16 AM

Or maybe he'll just decide to hold his breath forever as a new year resolution. There, prophecy fulfilled !

That, or he might just die.

I like Belkar, so I accept that he'll die rather than trying to find some loophole. Won't be disappointed that way and if it ever end up in him finding one, hey bonus.

If you want the best, prepare for the worst. :smallcool:

David Argall

2013-12-04, 04:14 PM

TurtlesAWD

2013-12-04, 09:15 PM

I predict belkar will turn into a mummy, thus making him not able to breathe and he won't be able to eat any future birthday cake on account of his head being wrapped up.

This and Durkon's transformation will be a part of a series of events where the entire Order become an undead evil adventuring party!

martianmister

2013-12-04, 09:30 PM

I predict belkar will turn into a fish, thus making him not able to breathe air and he won't be able to eat any future birthday cakes on account of he's being a fish. Then his kitty will eat him.

Mauve Shirt

2013-12-04, 09:33 PM

Belkar's going to be a free-willed undead, in the world on the other side of the rifts.

Sloanzilla

2013-12-05, 12:17 AM

I can accept Belkar dying if the last time we see him is to discover that he inched his way into the chaotic neutral afterlife- that all the growth we've seen over the past few months was not wasted. He developed just enough empathy to bounce around Limbo in the afterlife instead of roasting in the Abyss.

Smash_Gordon

2013-12-05, 01:50 AM

Also, his death would be a fitting mirror to the order of the scribble.

Kraagor was a barbarian, too.

Lexible

2013-12-05, 02:18 AM

Belkar is gonna set up his crib in Xykon's abandoned asteroid-fortress on the astral plane:

1. No one breathes on the astral plane

2. Time works differently there so the meaning of birthday is lost local to the plane

3. Food, drink are also strictly non-events there

4. He will no longer be "of this world."

5. Bonus points for rockin' a githyanki-decor style, and generally living the metal life style with Bloodfeast the Extreminator and the Scrufsters.

6. Bonus bonus points for hosting the MitD who enjoys the way the astral plane makes him feel all light.

Chaingun

2013-12-05, 03:12 AM

Souhiro

2013-12-05, 04:42 AM

I think that Belkar will get his hands into the GURREN LAGANN.
He will kill the oracle, and keep killing him until he gives up.
Then he'll go to Tiamat, and kill her. Gurren Lagann can kill Gods, Übergods, galaxies, universes, and punch the reason to the curb. I'm positive that a puny dragon-god can easily be obliterated via Giga Drill Breaker.

Finally, he'll go to see Destiny, get a sonic screwdriver and screw destiny.

Lastly, when he finally kicks the bucket (And it will be when HE decides, not when some Wibbly Wobbly prophecy stuff does) , he'll use GIPSY DANGER to intimidate the judge of the death (Kelemvor, Pharasma, a random deva, or whoever is in charge at the moment) and make his way into Chaotic Good afterlife, where he can reunite with his long lost friends Lord Shojo and Mr Scruffy (Sigh! House Cats life spectancy is lower than halfling's)

And then? They'll have some time resting, enjoying telling tales of their adventures and pranks, and when they run out of stories... THEY WALK OUT OF AFTERLIFE, AND GET NEW ADVENTURES.
Never the End.

RMS Oceanic

2013-12-05, 05:48 AM

dancrilis

2013-12-05, 07:23 AM

It is possible.

For example:
The Oracle saw Belker die in the illusion and looked ahead, saw the monument to Belker so knew he would not be raised - and called it a day.

The Oracle is not theoretically all knowing, he indicated that Roy would forget everything else - which was wrong (a debatable interpretation as to whether he knew that Roy wouldn't pass the memory charm at the time - but would later in life).

So it is possible that Belkar's death occurred and was missed by all.

It is also possible that it is still due.

Living Oxymoron

2013-12-05, 10:32 AM

I predict that he dies in a fairly mundane way: In the final battle with Xykon he just gets Meteor Swarmed or similar, and then Roy vetoes any plan to resurrect him because of the prophecy.

The problem is: that already happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) in the Happy Ending (and exactly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) like you said). Also, Belkar has been able to gain some confidence in the party, especially from Roy. So, I don't think he will die definitely unless his death happens in a way that the Order wouldn't be able to resurrect him.

Lord Torath

2013-12-05, 11:29 AM

And Belkar also has undergone character growth, caring for 2 animal companions, so the old "killemallandletthegodssortemout" belkar no longer exists and now "killmostofemceptfortheorderandmyanimalpals" belker is here to stay.
This is the main reason I think Belkar will die, permanently, without loopholes, Ben Kenobi logic, or other silliness. At the time the prophecy was given, Belkar was a horrid little jerk, and I would have been quite happy to see him geeked.

Now, he's gone through a lot of character development, and I've actually started liking him. When he does go, I'm sure it will affect me deeply (maybe not as much as Sturm's death, but still). I've been on pins at needles since Durkon drained him to 1 hp, worried his time is at hand. So I've gone from eagerly anticipating his death, to actively dreading it. And I bet I'm not alone.

I think Rich has been very carefully and deliberately fostering this attitude, and he's unlikely to waste all that hard work for a cheap trick or loophole.

My two coppers. Take 'em or (more likely) leave 'em.

konradknox

2013-12-05, 02:16 PM

I predict belkar will turn into a fish, thus making him not able to breathe air and he won't be able to eat any future birthday cakes on account of he's being a fish. Then his kitty will eat him.

I am actually strangely on board with this prediction. It also fits "not long for this world" if Belkar stops being Belkar, or has to live in the water world, deep in the ocean. Then indeed, Belkar as he was, is not long for this world. But Belkfish is.

astralmeson

2013-12-05, 03:11 PM

I am actually strangely on board with this prediction. It also fits "not long for this world" if Belkar stops being Belkar, or has to live in the water world, deep in the ocean. Then indeed, Belkar as he was, is not long for this world. But Belkfish is.

"EVOLVE OR DIE."

EVOLVE AND DIE.

Sir_Dr_D

2013-12-05, 11:35 PM

Rich would know exactly what Belkars fate can be, whether good or bad. And as an author he can word prophecies in such a way to make it sound like Belkar will die, when they mean something else. I see the prophecies as a mystery for us readers to keep us interested in what will happen later in the story, and not as definite proof that Belkar will die. Anything could happen.

- Maybe Belkar stays behind in the world in the Rift, as a quite literal sexy shoeless god of war
- Roy learning about the prophecy about Belkar was something the Oracle did not predict. This could have a point in the story later, and could in fact allow him to change events.
- perhaps Tiamat and the dragons will be involved in the plot later, and Belkars supposed death is at their hands. But since Tiamat probably cannot accurately predict things about herself, Belkars prophecy was misinterpreted. Belkar faking death could be involved in their defeat.
- The Snarl could change things radically, which makes predictions after a certain point impossible. Belkar could end up as 'dead' as Kragaar, but in reality something else happened to both of them.

I think the poster who mentioned the pass phrase 'evolve or die' is on to something. Belkar is evolving, which could allow him to avoid the 'die ' fate.

What ever does happen it will be a dramatic experience, and a large milestone in the sexy shoeless rangers character growth.

Kornaki

2013-12-06, 01:54 AM

Belkar is evolving, which could allow him to avoid the 'die ' fate.

I like this idea a lot.

Weiser_Cain

2013-12-06, 04:17 AM

Quild

2013-12-06, 04:25 AM

Kish

2013-12-06, 06:04 AM

I like this idea a lot.
I dislike the idea that the passcode Lord Shojo sets for his Mark of Justice is somehow a Belkar prophecy that trumps the Oracle, a lot. If you're going that way, why don't you just speculate that in the next civilized area they're in, some random person will say to Belkar, "A long life to you!" and that will overwrite the Oracle's prophecy?

(And really, fish breathe, though I see that martianmister's original proposal had Belkar dying shortly after becoming a fish; the Oracle did not say Belkar would take his last breath of air.)

Sir_Dr_D

2013-12-06, 08:50 AM

It is not so much that the passcode trumps Belkar's prophecy, as it is a literary clue to us readers.

We do not know at this time how carved in stone the prophesies are, or what the oracle meant with what he said. People knowing the future, means that they can take a different course of action then they would otherwise. That is why people go to the oracle after all.

Lets say Roy went back to the oracle and asked, 'What can we do to prevent Belkars fate?' The oracle would be required to give an answer to that.

Belkars character growth, combined with Roy's knowledge of the event, couldcause Roy to have a change of heart. It could be a plot arc later, as they try to find out a way to keep Belkar alive.

Kish

2013-12-06, 09:10 AM

It is not so much that the passcode trumps Belkar's prophecy, as it is a literary clue to us readers.

We
Agh. Speak for yourself, will you?

That is why people go to the oracle after all.

Really? In the comic, there are a large number of people who went to the Oracle. Not one appears to have done so in order to make what the Oracle said false. Who was the sorcerer who killed my master? Which of these two gates is Xykon going to next (note: this question would be useless if your claims were correct, since the best possible answer would necessarily include the rider, "...unless he changes his mind.")? Will this story have a happy ending (unanswerable, if your claims were correct, and yet answered smoothly and unhesitatingly by the Oracle who actually is in the comic)? Etc., etc., etc., etc.

Lets say Roy went back to the oracle and asked, 'What can we do to prevent Belkars fate?' The oracle would be required to give an answer to that.

And, it seems, you believe for some reason that the obvious answer would not be "Nothing."

Jay R

2013-12-06, 10:47 AM

Yet another clever scheme Rich could use to circumvent the clear intent of the author.

dmuzzy

2013-12-06, 03:22 PM

I dont think that Belkar will get out of the prophecy either. Rich is very adept at being obvious about something and still delivering it with plenty of weight.

Example:

Heyyyy, I wonder if Malak is a vampire?
...

Wow look at all these clues, he must be a vampire.
...

Hmmm, seems too obvious, Malak definitely isn't a vampire.
...

HOLY CRAP!! Malak is a vampire!!

Fish

2013-12-06, 06:39 PM

Belkar is gonna set up his crib in Xykon's abandoned asteroid-fortress on the astral plane...
I just had a crazy idea.

That astral fortress is the very best place to stash the last Gate. It's a fortress designed by a paranoid epic sorcerer lich to house his phylactery, and bolstered by the castings of a nigh-epic cleric.

If the Dark One gains control of the Gate's location via the ritual, and if he were so inclined, he could simply move the Gate there. Boom.

Would Xykon or Redcloak even know where it was? They finish the ritual; Xykon surely becomes aware that he's not controlling the Snarl at that point, and lich-goblin hostilities ensue. If both are destroyed, then who is left who knows of the Gate's location, apart from the Dark One himself? Maybe this has been the Dark One's plan for quite some time...

Benthesquid

2013-12-06, 06:53 PM

I just had a crazy idea.

That astral fortress is the very best place to stash the last Gate. It's a fortress designed by a paranoid epic sorcerer lich to house his phylactery, and bolstered by the castings of a nigh-epic cleric.

If the Dark One gains control of the Gate's location via the ritual, and if he were so inclined, he could simply move the Gate there. Boom.

Would Xykon or Redcloak even know where it was? They finish the ritual; Xykon surely becomes aware that he's not controlling the Snarl at that point, and lich-goblin hostilities ensue. If both are destroyed, then who is left who knows of the Gate's location, apart from the Dark One himself? Maybe this has been the Dark One's plan for quite some time...

Given Xykon thinks that he's storing his Phylactery in the Astral Fortress, he probably has some sort of alarm that tells him if something hinky is going on there.

DougTheHead

2013-12-07, 07:43 PM

Sadly, the prophecy was "Belkar will draw his last breath -ever- before the end of the year" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/PB7Qobbl4OF31TrFHae.gif)

Has anyone suggested that it's before the end of the Azure City year rather than the "normal" year? Because if so, then they're probably no more than halfway through the year- the invasion of Azure City happened right after New Year's, and at #501, after the time-skip, Hinjo says it's been four months. There hasn't been a major time-jump since then, so probably no more than 2-3 months have passed, meaning we're about halfway through the Azurite year.

Anyone want to read all the comics from #501 to the present and count the number of days that pass? ;)

David Argall

2013-12-08, 01:06 AM

Has anyone suggested that it's before the end of the Azure City year rather than the "normal" year? Because if so, then they're probably no more than halfway through the year- the invasion of Azure City happened right after New Year's, and at #501, after the time-skip, Hinjo says it's been four months. There hasn't been a major time-jump since then, so probably no more than 2-3 months have passed, meaning we're about halfway through the Azurite year.

Anyone want to read all the comics from #501 to the present and count the number of days that pass? ;)
The Azure City year started 11 months ago. Our baby wasn't even conceived when the city fell and it was born a month or so back.
Now I don't recall that we nailed down that the Oracle was using the AC calendar, tho that is clearly the most likely, and so we may be able to give Belkar some more breathing room, but "savor his next birthday cake" also puts the short one on short time.

WolvesbaneIII

2013-12-08, 01:17 AM

There's always the fact that the oracle saw into the comic and witnessed belkar die in girards pyrymid. He can break the 4th wall ya know.

Or belkar out right dies and is soul bound by xykon.

DrTempest

2013-12-12, 09:39 PM

My bets? Kraagor's Gate. Undone by the Snarl, unable to be resurrected, since he is literally unmade.

As far as literary parallels to the Order of the Scribble go, it fits. And in some noble sacrifice to his team (and of course Mr. Scruffy) he uses the "close the gate" scene, with the off-putting parallel that it is OotS' version of Soon (Roy) telling him to get out of the way.

veti

2013-12-12, 10:01 PM

I predict that he dies in a fairly mundane way: In the final battle with Xykon he just gets Meteor Swarmed or similar, and then Roy vetoes any plan to resurrect him because of the prophecy.

Somehow, I can't see Roy vetoing resurrection for that reason.

Other reasons, sure. I can also see the new Durkon simply refusing to resurrect him, on the grounds that he's a vile wee scunner and what use is he anyway? But Roy vetoing the plan just to avoid besmirching the Oracle's record - no.

Clove

2013-12-13, 05:11 PM

I'm pretty sure prophesies concerning a single character are null and void when greater gods and forces such as the snarl are involved.

Belkar is on a quest concerning the snarl, and he's been specially groomed for some special purpose by a chaotic good agent from the afterlife.

Kish

2013-12-13, 05:43 PM

I'm pretty sure prophesies concerning a single character are null and void when greater gods and forces such as the snarl are involved.
Thus explaining why Xykon went to Kraagor's Gate before Girard's Gate, why Durkon is still alive and going back to the dwarven homelands, and why the Order still doesn't know who killed Fyron.

Oh wait.

Ridureyu

2013-12-13, 06:26 PM

Somehow, I can't see Roy vetoing resurrection for that reason.

Other reasons, sure. I can also see the new Durkon simply refusing to resurrect him, on the grounds that he's a vile wee scunner and what use is he anyway? But Roy vetoing the plan just to avoid besmirching the Oracle's record - no.

I could see Belkar himself refusing the resurrection, because his afterlife is...

...Him, Shojo, and Mr. Scruffy. Happy.

martianmister

2013-12-13, 06:29 PM

I could see Belkar himself refusing the resurrection, because his afterlife is...

...Him, Shojo, and Mr. Scruffy. Happy.

Shojo might be a jerk, but he's not an evil aligned murderer.

Ridureyu

2013-12-13, 06:32 PM

Remember Belkar's illusionary "happy ending?" I'm hoping that everything he does in the comic counts as just enough redemption to squeeze him in for that.

martianmister

2013-12-13, 06:45 PM

Remember Belkar's illusionary "happy ending?" I'm hoping that everything he does in the comic counts as just enough redemption to squeeze him in for that.

1. I hope not.

2. MS is an animal, thus it can't be anything but TN.

Ridureyu

2013-12-13, 06:58 PM

1. Most cats are Chaotic Evil.

2. Awwwwww, look at Bossy! (links because the pictures might be too big for the forum)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/null_zps9afab0ab.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/null_zps0af43f36.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/null_zps6b751ccd.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/null_zps20a29fd8.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/null-10.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/null-9.jpg

Cavenskull

2013-12-14, 03:14 AM

Yeah, well I think the Oracle was just playing Roy. We first saw him volunteering the knowledge of Belkar's impending "death" for no payment. He later referred back to Roy and Durkon's original visit, where he spelled it out. HOWEVER, this was a prophecy Roy got for free after threatening the Oracle with death.

Duress generally voids a contract.
The Oracle did give a correct answer to the question asked under duress. Based on Strip 330 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html), the Oracle's smartass response to the question "Where is Xykon?" is the reason Roy and Durkon coerced a third question out of the Oracle. And we know for a fact that the answer they coerced out of the Oracle was correct, because it's how they found Xykon in Dorukan's Dungeon.

The Oracle is disgusted by mammals generally and HATES Belkar. Why wouldn't he screw with him?
Because Belkar doesn't actually know about the prophecy. The Oracle had the opportunity to briefly annoy Belkar over it, but the memory charm ensured that Belkar would only be bothered by it for the brief amount of time the Oracle spent talking about it. When the Oracle decided to get explicit, Belkar wasn't around to hear about it. Now, considering that at the time Roy would have been happy to be rid of Belkar, and considering that Belkar is blissfully unaware of the prophecy, how does the mammal-hater actually benefit by allowing Roy to breathe a sigh of relief over not having to keep an eye on Belkar for years or even decades? The only reason I can see the Oracle being happy over Belkar's prophecy is because it's real, and the little halfling snot isn't going to see it coming. Do you really think the Oracle would gloat over Belkar's impending death if it's a fake prophecy that Belkar never finds out about? Remember, Belkar did murder the Oracle.

Kish

2013-12-14, 06:38 AM

Yeah, well I think the Oracle was just playing Roy. We first saw him volunteering the knowledge of Belkar's impending "death" for no payment. He later referred back to Roy and Durkon's original visit, where he spelled it out.

Huh? Neither Roy nor Durkon knew Belkar at their original visit.

1) Roy and Durkon visited the Oracle. Roy asked where Xykon is. The Oracle replied "In his throne room." Roy dangled him out a window and he agreed to answer another question; the answer to that question led Roy and Durkon (the rest of the Order not yet being formed) to the Dungeon of Dorukan.

2) The Order visited the Oracle, the first time we saw. The Oracle mentioned several times that Belkar would be dead soon.

3) Haley, Celia, and the ghost of Roy visited the Oracle. The Oracle alluded to "the same thing I said last time, only you forgot," as in visit #2, not #1, and spelled out that Belkar will draw his last breath ever before the end of the year.

You've confused the directions to Xykon with the Oracle saying, "A halfling you don't know yet will die within a couple years."

Megsie

2013-12-14, 07:41 AM

2. Awwwwww, look at Bossy!

TORTITUDE!

Ahem. Um. As for on-topic.. what Kish said.

Further, it never ceases to amaze me how many people question the Oracle's reliability despite him having a 0% failure rate per what we've seen.

Clove

2013-12-14, 10:21 AM

Thus explaining why Xykon went to Kraagor's Gate before Girard's Gate, why Durkon is still alive and going back to the dwarven homelands, and why the Order still doesn't know who killed Fyron.

Oh wait.

I'm looking at the forest, not the trees.

This is a dramatic story. Over and over, characters, institutions, and ideals are broken to create the drama.

The only thing left to be broken now is the prophecy. Sure the prophecy has held up so far, but it has to be given credence before being broken. Otherwise, where would the drama be?

Prophesies derailed are great dramatic moments when pulled off well.

Now this doesn't mean the prophecy will definitely derail, but I think it shouldn't be taken for granted.

Kish

2013-12-14, 10:31 AM

I'm looking at the forest, not the trees.
You're arbitrarily declaring that the prophecy you don't want to come true will not come true, based (initially) on a rationale you're not even trying to defend.

Neither this story, nor "dramatic stories" in general, are defined by breaking things. Even if they were, the prophecy would certainly not be the only thing left unbroken in this story.

sam79

2013-12-14, 11:23 AM

I'm looking at the forest, not the trees.

Prophesies derailed are great dramatic moments when pulled off well.

Now this doesn't mean the prophecy will definitely derail, but I think it shouldn't be taken for granted.

The problem with this is that the author has already said that the Oracle's prohesies are for real; in particular, the happy ending prohesy for Elan is his promise to the readership that, thought the story will have some dark moments and go to some dark places, it is at heart a comedy-fantasy-adventure.

For the author to then undermine this by having one of the Oracle's prophesy not come true would be to render this guarantee worthless.

Also, IMO, the author's recent statements regarding the 'moral message' he is hoping to deliver mean that it is unlikey that Belkar is not going to survive the story. Maybe he'll get snuffed out for all the evil he has done. Maybe he'll redeem himself for his former ways and die a valiant, heroic death. Maybe he'll redeem himself for his former ways and get snuffed out for all the evil he has done anyway. Or some thing else. But his card is marked, and has been for a while.

The misdirection with this particular prophesy, IMO, was in making people (or me at least) think that he was done for in this story arc, making Durkon's 'demise' all the more shocking.

Megsie

2013-12-14, 12:56 PM

I'm looking at the forest, not the trees.

This is a dramatic story. Over and over, characters, institutions, and ideals are broken to create the drama.

The only thing left to be broken now is the prophecy. Sure the prophecy has held up so far, but it has to be given credence before being broken. Otherwise, where would the drama be?

Prophesies derailed are great dramatic moments when pulled off well.

Now this doesn't mean the prophecy will definitely derail, but I think it shouldn't be taken for granted.

But prophecies fulfilled are just as dramatic as prophecies denied, if not moreso. I can think of several great "WHOA" moments in fantasy literature when a prophecy is fulfilled in some unexpected or otherwise amazing way. Stephen R. Donaldson, George RR Martin, Terry Goodkind, and J. K. Rowling all use prophecy very effectively as a literary device to create a sense of foreboding. That loses all meaning if prophecy within a work is treated lightly. "Gee, the fortune teller said I'd outlive all of my children but eh, she also said my friend would die and she's totally still alive, so screw her." doesn't create much tension, and that's the kind of feeling that breaking Belkar's prophecy would lead to for, I suspect, a large part of the readership.

Clove

2013-12-14, 01:02 PM

Blue emphasis is mine. I'm going off of the author's definition of drama, since it is his story.

Because then there's no climax to the story?

He IS that, 99.999999999% of his life, but you are looking at his very worst day. Drama is all about taking characters and pushing them until they break, one way or the other. If a character can't be broken, then they have no place as a main character in a story. So writing a drama involves thinking of all the ways that your characters can be broken; this is the way that I chose for Tarquin.

I once read excellent writing advice that said, "Is this the most interesting time in your character's life? If not, why aren't you writing about that instead?" This is the most interesting time in Tarquin's life, because it's where the rubber of his self-image hits the road of reality. It's where his worldview is being challenged in a way that he can't just throw resources at it to fix it. Take away that conflict, that inherent crumbling of his previous cool, and there's nothing interesting to write about. There's just, "Oh, he was bad for a long time, but then the good guys fixed it by stabbing him." Boring.

Kish

2013-12-14, 01:08 PM

If the prophecy was a character, Rich's quote might conceivably bend the way you're trying to make it. As it is, there is is far more drama in actually having Belkar die and stay dead than there would be in declaring that, since this story involves gods and the Snarl, only those prophecies that don't predict bad things for the protagonists will come true.

Sir_Dr_D

2013-12-14, 07:14 PM

This is a dramatic story. Over and over, characters, institutions, and ideals are broken to create the drama.

The only thing left to be broken now is the prophecy. Sure the prophecy has held up so far, but it has to be given credence before being broken. Otherwise, where would the drama be?

Prophesies derailed are great dramatic moments when pulled off well.

Now this doesn't mean the prophecy will definitely derail, but I think it shouldn't be taken for granted.

But prophecies fulfilled are just as dramatic as prophecies denied, if not moreso. I can think of several great "WHOA" moments in fantasy literature when a prophecy is fulfilled in some unexpected or otherwise amazing way. Stephen R. Donaldson, George RR Martin, Terry Goodkind, and J. K. Rowling all use prophecy very effectively as a literary device to create a sense of foreboding. That loses all meaning if prophecy within a work is treated lightly. "Gee, the fortune teller said I'd outlive all of my children but eh, she also said my friend would die and she's totally still alive, so screw her." doesn't create much tension, and that's the kind of feeling that breaking Belkar's prophecy would lead to for, I suspect, a large part of the readership.

Clove, I like the way your worded that. Prophecies derailed can create good dramatic tension. Megsie, I like what you said too. Prophecies fulfilled can be dramatic too. I have seen both cases done to good effect. It is a good thing that Rich is a good and unpredictable writer, so we don't know what will happen. I am certain that either way, what happens to Belkar will be as dramatic to the OOTS, as what happened to Kragaar was to the order of the scribble.

But we can not take for granted that Belkar will die. I am not saying he won't, just that it is not certain. Not when:
1) The oracle did not directly say Belkar will die. Just strongly hinted at it. It is easy for an author to subvert what will really happen.
2) The fact that the oracle messed up and Roy remembered something he was not supposed to, could have an impact on the story.
3) The oracle follows a dragon god. Not an all powerfull god of knowledge or prophecy. This implies that other gods would have similar power. And in a world of powerfull magic, anything could happen, or be overridden.
4) We do not know if the oracle's prophecies are the type of, 'this is what will happen' or 'this is what will happen unless you take heed of what I say.' Roy changed his actions according to what the oracle said with his questions. The others asked useless questions, or got back useless answers. They did not get answers they could have acted on, and we don't know what would have happened if they managed to wring a useful answer out of the Kobold.
5) The snarl can make anything uncertain. He has been described as being pure chaotic, and above the power of the gods. It would not be a stretch to say that the outcome of encounters with the snarl, are beyond predictability of the gods. The same fate that happened to Kragaar could happen to Belkar. But the revelation of the world in the rift, and no site of the snarl, puts forth the possibility that what happened to Kragaar was misunderstood.

There is a lot of possibilities, and mysteries which will make the future of the story exciting.

Boogastreehouse

2013-12-14, 09:08 PM

I think it looks nice with a little space

Yet another clever scheme Rich could use to circumvent the clear intent of the author.

Nicely said.

I always think this when people try figure out how the Giant is going to "get out" of something he wrote. He doesn't need to "get out" of anything. He knows where the story is going, and he's writing his way toward that destination one word at a time.

It's the same as people who say something "happens because of plot." I really hate that. That's putting the cart before the horse. Rich doesn't write anything because of plot. Rich shapes the plot based on what he wants to write. To use a tired old aphorism; the tail doesn't wag the dog. To imply otherwise is vaguely insulting to the dog... er... author.

In other words, Rich doesn't ever have to come up with something to keep his plot on track, because whatever circumstances are necessary to make events happen were already planned out by the writer. There are no asspulls. There are no deus ex machina.

And if he has a twist planned with the Belkar prophesy, it's going to be better than Belkar becoming an undead fish-golem.

Personally, I'm really hoping Belkar goes to hell, so we can get a tour, like we did when Roy died. While he's down there, he helps out Vaarsuvius (who has again been imprisoned by the fiends at an important time) and we finally get some resolution on that New Year's kiss. Then, maybe he and Banjo can ascend to true godhood or something, I don't know.

I think it looks nice with a little space

Sir_Dr_D

2013-12-14, 09:25 PM

Exactly. Rich would not have made up the prophesies, and then try to figure out what they mean. He would have known what Belkars fate is first, and then decided to add in the prophecies to add in some tension. And if you know what is going to happen, it is easy to word it such a way to make it sound like one thing will happen, when really another thing will.

Bulldog Psion

2013-12-15, 12:00 AM

I wonder how the speculation would have developed if the Oracle had said "one of you will die and never be resurrected" without ever specifying who?

b_jonas

2013-12-15, 05:33 AM

I predict that he dies in a fairly mundane way

I think Belkar will drink himself to death with beer right at the countdown for new year. Would that count as mundane?

Rodin

2013-12-15, 06:34 AM

I wonder how the speculation would have developed if the Oracle had said "one of you will die and never be resurrected" without ever specifying who?

Speculation would certainly have centered on Durkon. His prophecy already stated that he wouldn't return home until he died, and he's the only one who couldn't be easily resurrected by, well, Durkon.

Belkar's prophecy has actually proved to be a very effective red herring. I have no doubt it'll happen sooner or later, but for throwing people off their guard on other developments it's been brilliant.

Zerozzz0290

2013-12-15, 10:02 AM

Let's not forget speculation is a form of paranoia, we can't work out more than what's been seen in the comic, I don't think the Oracle could see "inside a prophecy" if we is looking at the real world he would just see a bunch of guys standing in the middle of the hallway with a contended smile (let's remember Durkon didn't die in the ilusion and yet the oracle stated that Durkon would die, though not with those words). And we know because of this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html (567) that the oracle takes his prophecies to the letter, he doesn't go around with "Metaphorical death" been thrown away, we know prophecies and foreshadowing is heavily placed in the OotSverse ever since "When the goat turns, red strikes true" (comma added). Plus, the Oracle almost never "forgets to see ahead" he knows when he will be killed, as shown here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html (0571) and in here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html (572) he is using his "prophecy voice" meaning he is not giving a calculated idea of what could happen to some anoying little halfling or pulling the leg of someone cuz he can, he is using a spell with which he can only answer the truth about the question being asked (we already saw the "which of the two gates" conundrum :elan::three gates Roy, it's okay counting is hard for me too) and he states "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year" and as funny as it is to thinker with the idea of a zombie Belkar "last breath" means death and the oracle is a straight shooter. So as far as I can see Belkar is going to die, that doesn't mean there is no drama in a character death when it comes to foreshadowing, read Romeo and Juliet, over and over you get told that they WILL die, yet it's dramatic when it happens, not because you didn't knew but because you weren't expecting HOW it happens.

warrl

2013-12-15, 11:27 AM

The Oracle also said "not long for this world", and in general spoke like he had seen Belkar for the last time. Now the very fact there are all these predictions makes us suspicious, but some cheezy idea that only fits one or two of the predictions is not going to cut it.

What I'm wondering is which of those are actually prophecies and which are idiomatic restatings of the obvious interpretation of the prophecies.

Purely hypothetically (because I'm not wondering enough to actually go check), "not long for this world" is the only prophecy and Belkar could fulfill this by going through the rift to the other world Vaarsuvius saw there - and lacking either means or desire to return.

Kish

2013-12-15, 11:49 AM

Havokca

2013-12-15, 01:40 PM

Whatever "actual" means, I see no reason not all the prophecies would be it.

The only prophecy which was in the green glowies, if that's what you mean, is, "Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year."

I feel like he's either being setup to:

Make a noble sacrifice -- in which case he's dead, and the prophecy gets its literal fulfillment, or

Undergo such a major character shift (along the path that he's already moving), that he'll end up pulling a "reverse-Vader*" -- in which case, the Belkar we came to know is essentially dead, and the prophecy is fulfilled... albeit not quite as literally.

* -- "you told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."

"He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."

martianmister

2013-12-15, 04:03 PM

I wonder how the speculation would have developed if the Oracle had said "one of you will die and never be resurrected" without ever specifying who?

Considering Roy's death and late resurrection, there would be so much discussion about possibility of his return. Forum would be divided into "Roy will back" and "He'll stay as dead/ghost" groups.

Lombard

2013-12-15, 04:38 PM

If the prophecy was like a wish granted by the monkey's paw, i.e. one of those wishes that always seems to try to give you the letter of the wish, not the spirit, it would be so laughably easy to subvert. For example, "I wish Belkar will draw his last breath before the end of the year, shazam."

Oops you forgot to specify which year. Were you careful enough to specify which Belkar, assuming he is not the only one with that name in the world? Have you worded your wish in a way that will not let it be fulfilled by for instance the subject deciding to take pencil to paper and depict a singular portrayal of his intaking air?

Generally, subverting a wish or prophecy in this manner is child's play, meaning that Belkar will die for good in this comic if and only if the Giant decides it will be so. So you may safely presume that either he intended to tip you off about Belkar's impending demise for his own reasons, or he simply wanted you to worry/slaver over the possibility that Belkar might die.

Ridureyu

2013-12-15, 05:57 PM

Lombard, what about the part here the Oracle clarified it, specifically stating that it was this in-comic calendar year?

Ghost Nappa

2013-12-15, 06:29 PM

Belkar will wind up in a situation where he has to literally draw things out for Roy for some reason. In one such scenario, he will be illustrating the processes of inhalation and exhalation. Then he will sprain his wrists and/or someone will cut them off. Then, Belkar will retire as an artist.

Edit: This coincidentally means that it will be harder to eat cake.

Bulldog Psion

2013-12-15, 07:20 PM

I think he's going to die, but it's clearly not going to be as neat and convenient as Roy is imagining.

Lombard

2013-12-15, 07:21 PM

Lombard, what about the part here the Oracle clarified it, specifically stating that it was this in-comic calendar year?

Pretty sure he said 'an' in-comic year, not 'this' in-comic year. So again, which year?

I mean, heh, clearly a reasonable person would take that to mean the current year. Just pointing out per my post above that the exact wording does leave some potential wiggle room if the author wants to play it that way.

martianmister

2013-12-16, 08:54 AM

Pretty sure he said 'an' in-comic year, not 'this' in-comic year. So again, which year?

I mean, heh, clearly a reasonable person would take that to mean the current year. Just pointing out per my post above that the exact wording does leave some potential wiggle room if the author wants to play it that way.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif "...he should savor his next birthday cake. 'Nuff said." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)

Greatmoustache

2013-12-16, 11:31 AM

Also, his death would be a fitting mirror to the order of the scribble.

Kraagor was a barbarian, too.

damn you're right. and then we will have to deal with at least two seperate "all the barbarians are dead in this comic. surely this must be due to the giant being a discriminative hack of a writer!" threads. miko style!

edit:

This is the main reason I think Belkar will die, permanently, without loopholes, Ben Kenobi logic, or other silliness. At the time the prophecy was given, Belkar was a horrid little jerk, and I would have been quite happy to see him geeked.

Now, he's gone through a lot of character development, and I've actually started liking him. When he does go, I'm sure it will affect me deeply (maybe not as much as Sturm's death, but still). I've been on pins at needles since Durkon drained him to 1 hp, worried his time is at hand. So I've gone from eagerly anticipating his death, to actively dreading it. And I bet I'm not alone.

I think Rich has been very carefully and deliberately fostering this attitude, and he's unlikely to waste all that hard work for a cheap trick or loophole.

My two coppers. Take 'em or (more likely) leave 'em.

also, i totally agree. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlayerPunch)