My Bardy Cohort

[Epsilon Rose]

Right, so I'm planning on picking up leadership at level 9 in a campaign I'm currently playing in and I think I want to have a bard for my cohort. Unfortunately, I've never built or played a bard before and reading Dictum Mortum's Bard Handbook and Endarire's IC handbook has just left me more confused. I'm hoping the playground can help me sort things out.

My question has two parts, one short the other long. I'll start with the short.

My DM is going to be running a series of one-shots that expand on the background of each main character. These will take place at a much lower level than what we're currently playing at with one main character showing up and the rest of us playing throw-away character, if we want. I thought it might be interesting to play my cohort-to-be, so I can introduce him before he pops out of nowhere at level 9. The thing is, the first one shot takes place at level 2 and I'm not sure the bards are all that useful at such a low level. Is it worth building and playing him or would I be better off with a totemist, binder or warlock?

The second question is more about building the character going forward.

I'm currently playing an Ozadrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536) and I'm one of the better optimizers in the group, so my character is kinda scary to everyone else, what with casually stacking fear effects, good versatility, and many, many natural attacks. To that end, and because our wizard is rather new to things, I thought it might be fun to pick-up a cohort that can help everyone. I've always heard that Bard is a really good class and I thought combining it with War Weaver and Sublime Cord might make for some excellent party-wide buffing. Unfortunately, the more I look at it, the less sure I get. Am I better off ditching the war weaver/Sublime Cord and just focusing on Bardic Music? How does bardic music, other than dragon fire inspiration, build up into anything useful? Am I better off basing this on something other than bard? What exactly should I be looking out for?

I'd appreciate any help or advice the playground could offer on building this character.

If it's relevant, we use a 42 point buy and the DM seems open to most sources, but for some reason he won't let us take any PRCs before 9th level.

[Slipperychicken]

My DM is going to be running a series of one-shots that expand on the background of each main character. These will take place at a much lower level than what we're currently playing at with one main character showing up and the rest of us playing throw-away character, if we want. I thought it might be interesting to play my cohort-to-be, so I can introduce him before he pops out of nowhere at level 9. The thing is, the first one shot takes place at level 2 and I'm not sure the bards are all that useful at such a low level. Is it worth building and playing him or would I be better off with a totemist, binder or warlock?


If you don't like how it plays at level 2, you only have to deal with it for one session.

Besides, bards are good at skills (especially social skills), can throw down good spells like Sleep and Grease, while Inspire Courage makes you respected (or at least tolerated) by beatsticks who need every bonus they can, since chance is still a large factor at level 2. You should have 1-2 first level spells per day at that level, which can potentially end encounters. At the very worst, you can plink people with a crossbow, be a flank buddy, or try to Intimidate enemies into surrendering (or merely being Shaken).

EDIT: Also, with 42 point buy, you're pretty much guaranteed to be good at your job. So yeah, slap an 18 in Charisma, 14 in Constitution, 16 Intelligence (more skill points makes a better Bard. Take something useful like Sense Motive, UMD, disguise, and/or knowledges to keep you versatile), 14 Dex, 12 Wis, 8 Strength. This is assuming that your Bard focuses on IC and spellcasting rather than normal weapon-use. Don't forget that a 2nd level character can afford a CLW wand, so you can pull healer duty if nobody's playing a healer.

[Epsilon Rose]

If you don't like how it plays at level 2, you only have to deal with it for one session.

Besides, bards are good at skills (especially social skills), can throw down good spells like Sleep and Grease, while Inspire Courage makes you respected (or at least tolerated) by beatsticks who need every bonus they can, since chance is still a large factor at level 2. You should have 1-2 first level spells per day at that level, which can potentially end encounters. At the very worst, you can plink people with a crossbow, be a flank buddy, or try to Intimidate enemies into surrendering (or merely being Shaken).

EDIT: Also, with 42 point buy, you're pretty much guaranteed to be good at your job. So yeah, slap an 18 in Charisma, 14 in Constitution, 16 Intelligence (more skill points makes a better Bard. Take something useful like Sense Motive, UMD, disguise, and/or knowledges to keep you versatile), 14 Dex, 12 Wis, 8 Strength. This is assuming that your Bard focuses on IC and spellcasting rather than normal weapon-use. Don't forget that a 2nd level character can afford a CLW wand, so you can pull healer duty if nobody's playing a healer.

Huh. That is a series of very good points. Especially because the main character for this one shot is a swashbuckler.

Do you have any suggestions for good first level feats of I go Spellscale and want to stick to ranged combat? Also, is spellscale actually a good race for bards, the two guides I read seemed to contradict each other on that front.

[Gwendol]

You want melodic casting as a feat, as it saves you investing skill ranks in concentration and allowing you to go all in on performance (which you should anyway).
For the cohort bard I would suggest making a ranged combatant, so maybe elf for the longbow proficiency.

[illyahr]

If you want a primarily support bard, forget the Sublime Chord Prc and go with Seeker of the Song. Sublime Chord is great if you want to run a little more offensively, but Seeker has mass elemental resistance songs as well as the ability to sing two songs at once so your bard isn't trying to sneak into direct damage territory. A support bard is also easier to run as a cohort as their isn't as much number crunching involved. Just have him activate some support stuff and try to keep him alive. :smalltongue:

Other than mass support, I agree with the stat layout mentioned above. Skill monkey and mass support are where the bard really stands out.

[Slipperychicken]

Do you have any suggestions for good first level feats of I go Spellscale and want to stick to ranged combat? Also, is spellscale actually a good race for bards, the two guides I read seemed to contradict each other on that front.

I'd try to build him into the role you see him serving at level 9.

If you want ranged combat, you're obviously going to want to grab Point Blank Shot, then probably Rapid Shot, because when all opponents are in melee, he'll have other things to do like spellcasting and performance.

As an archer, you'll want to have some kind of bonus damage, whether that means having your Bard go DFI to add dice to each shot, and maybe having a good Strength score (14-16) so you can pick up a composite bow and add it to damage. Also, you'll want to prioritize Dexterity to 16-18 and maybe drop Charisma to 16. You can also safely drop Con to 12, although I recommend keeping it at 14 if you can. Your stats will probably look like: 14/16/14/14/12/16 before racial adjustments.

Spellscales are indeed good Bards, since they qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration (DFI). By 9th level, you'll have all the feats you want (PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Dragonfire Inspiration). If you aren't building for DFI, then you'd be better off with Human or Strongheart Halfling for the extra feat. If you are building DFI, check this out (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830) and use the Ebberron ACF to trade one of your bardic performances for a bonus feat.

[Baroknik]

For ghe low level one shot here is a way to be support in combat: IC and aid the swashbuckler from 15 ft with a whip. Assuming you don't optimize IC, that still nets her +3 to hit and +1 damage, it also leaves tactical options with the whip (trip/disarm) available in a pinch. If you pick up DFI, it puts you at +2 to hit and +1d6 damage for the swashy, pretty respectable.

[Bronk]

I agree with Slipperychicken... if you want a party-wide buffer, you couldn't do better than using Dragonfire Inspiration on top of everything else. Basically, you'd get an energy damage bonus, 1d6 per point of inspire courage, to every melee attack made all allies within range.

So, maybe have the bard be a spellscale, with dragonfire inspiration, then have him or her take the first level spell 'inspirational boost' (+1 to inspire courage), the feat 'Song of the Heart' (+1 IC) and put some other inspire courage boosting equipment like the 'Badge of Valor' (+1 IC) and the 'Vest of Legends' (+5 to bard level for IC) on your wish list.

That bard would have an inspire courage score of 6 and be able to use perform (sing) to give everyone a 6d6 energy damage bonus to melee for every attack, then, next round, use regular inspire courage to give them a +6 bonus to attack and damage on top of that. This works better with lingering song, and works even better using the 'Words of Creation' feat to double all of those bonuses to +12.

You might also look into 'subsonics' feat if you don't want to have your character listening to the bards singing all day, or tipping off monsters to your presence.

As for buffing with spells, you might look into the 'Ability Enhancer' feat, which allows you to add +2 to the enhancement bonus of any transmutation spell cast, so if the bard buffs you with Bull's strength, you'll get +6 instead of +4.

[Bronk]

If you want the bard to be fighty as well, you might want to look into the Crystal Echoblade (magic longsword that gives a sonic energy damage bonus equal to half the bard level) and the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (magic gauntlets that grant all melee attacks a sonic damage bonus equal to your Charisma bonus).

[Epsilon Rose]

If you want a primarily support bard, forget the Sublime Chord Prc and go with Seeker of the Song. Sublime Chord is great if you want to run a little more offensively, but Seeker has mass elemental resistance songs as well as the ability to sing two songs at once so your bard isn't trying to sneak into direct damage territory. A support bard is also easier to run as a cohort as their isn't as much number crunching involved. Just have him activate some support stuff and try to keep him alive. :smalltongue:

Other than mass support, I agree with the stat layout mentioned above. Skill monkey and mass support are where the bard really stands out.

I'm definitely beggining to lean more towards bardic music than casting (I'm not a particularly big fan of Vancien magic anyways), but I'm a bit unsure of the Seeker class. The ability to use two songs at once is nice, but the rest of the bonuses seem somewhat lacking. Most of the songs could easily be replaced (and surpassed) by a casting of mass resist elements...

The Sublime chord class is really only two levels long, so it can fit in with other PRCs that advance casting and bardic music. I'm not sure how many good classes there are on that front, but Heart Fire fanner looks interesting.


I'd try to build him into the role you see him serving at level 9.

If you want ranged combat, you're obviously going to want to grab Point Blank Shot, then probably Rapid Shot, because when all opponents are in melee, he'll have other things to do like spellcasting and performance.

As an archer, you'll want to have some kind of bonus damage, whether that means having your Bard go DFI to add dice to each shot, and maybe having a good Strength score (14-16) so you can pick up a composite bow and add it to damage. Also, you'll want to prioritize Dexterity to 16-18 and maybe drop Charisma to 16. You can also safely drop Con to 12, although I recommend keeping it at 14 if you can. Your stats will probably look like: 14/16/14/14/12/16 before racial adjustments.

Spellscales are indeed good Bards, since they qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration (DFI). By 9th level, you'll have all the feats you want (PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Dragonfire Inspiration). If you aren't building for DFI, then you'd be better off with Human or Strongheart Halfling for the extra feat. If you are building DFI, check this out (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830) and use the Ebberron ACF to trade one of your bardic performances for a bonus feat.

Huh, I hadn't actually considered getting things like PBS to improve my ranged combat. I guess I just wrote it off as a losing game. I'll have to run the actual numbers on that. Do you think I'd be better off picking up PBS or DFI for the oneshot?

I'm definitely planning on going DFI, it will be quite fun with my Ozadrin, and that is one of the guides I looked at.

[Slipperychicken]

Huh, I hadn't actually considered getting things like PBS to improve my ranged combat. I guess I just wrote it off as a losing game. I'll have to run the actual numbers on that. Do you think I'd be better off picking up PBS or DFI for the oneshot?

I'm definitely planning on going DFI, it will be quite fun with my Ozadrin, and that is one of the guides I looked at.

I would definitely recommend DFI for the oneshot -that extra 1d6 multiplies across all your teammates' attacks. The only reason I mention PBS at all is because it's a prerequisite for Rapid Shot, and because you said something about sticking to ranged combat. Also because the only way to be competent in ranged weapon damage is to spam lots of attacks with bonus damage on top.

[Gwendol]

A word of caution on DFI: elemental damage is nice, but you lose the attack bonus, which for two-handers in your party translates into a minimum of double damage (+the regular IC damage) thanks to power attack. Also it costs a feat which for a ranged character is not so good. I suggest going for maxing out IC and leave DFI behind. Also, check out alternate songs that may be useful: healing hymn can be quite good in case you have someone casting healing spells in the party. Hymn of fortification grants a prot from evil effect, and fits thematically well with Words of Creation later on (double IC).

[Slipperychicken]

A word of caution on DFI: elemental damage is nice, but you lose the attack bonus, which for two-handers in your party translates into a minimum of double damage (+the regular IC damage) thanks to power attack. Also it costs a feat which for a ranged character is not so good. I suggest going for maxing out IC and leave DFI behind. Also, check out alternate songs that may be useful: healing hymn can be quite good in case you have someone casting healing spells in the party. Hymn of fortification grants a prot from evil effect, and fits thematically well with Words of Creation later on (double IC).

IIRC, you can choose between DFI and vanilla IC each time you use it.

Also, I don't recommend Words of Creation if your GM holds you to the Exalted restrictions, like losing it when you commit an evil act.

[Baroknik]

A word of caution on DFI: elemental damage is nice, but you lose the attack bonus, which for two-handers in your party translates into a minimum of double damage (+the regular IC damage) thanks to power attack. Also it costs a feat which for a ranged character is not so good. I suggest going for maxing out IC and leave DFI behind. Also, check out alternate songs that may be useful: healing hymn can be quite good in case you have someone casting healing spells in the party. Hymn of fortification grants a prot from evil effect, and fits thematically well with Words of Creation later on (double IC).

Unless they are optimizing PA with multipliers (other than just using a 2H), DFI returns more damage than the attack bonus conversion of IC (3.5/pt vs 3/pt). Personally I'm the only one in my Group that realizes the benefit of PA multiplier stacking (we tend to be pretty low-op). If your group has chargers,stick with IC; otherwise go DFI if you can spare the feat.

[Epsilon Rose]

A word of caution on DFI: elemental damage is nice, but you lose the attack bonus, which for two-handers in your party translates into a minimum of double damage (+the regular IC damage) thanks to power attack. Also it costs a feat which for a ranged character is not so good. I suggest going for maxing out IC and leave DFI behind. Also, check out alternate songs that may be useful: healing hymn can be quite good in case you have someone casting healing spells in the party. Hymn of fortification grants a prot from evil effect, and fits thematically well with Words of Creation later on (double IC).
That's one of the reasons seaker of songs is nice. It let's you have two songs up at once (so ic and dfi).

Also, I don't think words of creation will be viable. Technically my main got away with taking Nymph's Kiss without being exalted, but she has special circumstances. I'm not sure my cohort could justify a similar exception. Also, the non-lethal damage still hurts.


Unless they are optimizing PA with multipliers (other than just using a 2H), DFI returns more damage than the attack bonus conversion of IC (3.5/pt vs 3/pt). Personally I'm the only one in my Group that realizes the benefit of PA multiplier stacking (we tend to be pretty low-op). If your group has chargers,stick with IC; otherwise go DFI if you can spare the feat.

That's another thing. The two big damage dealers in my party are a dungeon crasher and my Ozadrin. I'm not entirely sure how the dungeon crasher works, but I'd don't think he's using PA. Similarly, I know my Ozadrin isn't. She tends to rely on having a preposterous number of primary natural attacks (by level 9 she should have at least 7) or grappling for con damage.

It's also probably worth noting that when I said I want my bard to be ranged, I wasn't specifically referring to archery, though I might use it. I just meant I don't want him in the thick of things if he can avoid it.

[Samalpetey]

That's another thing. The two big damage dealers in my party are a dungeon crasher and my Ozadrin. I'm not entirely sure how the dungeon crasher works, but I'd don't think he's using PA. Similarly, I know my Ozadrin isn't. She tends to rely on having a preposterous number of primary natural attacks (by level 9 she should have at least 7) or grappling for con damage.

It's also probably worth noting that when I said I want my bard to be ranged, I wasn't specifically referring to archery, though I might use it. I just meant I don't want him in the thick of things if he can avoid it.

I'm another player in the campaign (and the one who made the dungeoncrasher) and he's just using 1 point of power attack per attack to trigger Knockback

[Baroknik]

DFI sounds like a good route to me then, especially if you are focused on high numbers of natural attacks. Also for a ranged assistance that doesn't require the feats, look into a whip like I mentioned earlier. You can just assist your teammates (give them +2 on attacks vs a certain enemy) as well as opens up the options to try tripping/disarming at range. Put two skill points to learn Whip Climber and you can use it like a grappling hook for more fun! Focus your spells on non-level/save dependent effects (grease is amazing) and you should be good to go with a support bard. Just got home a bit ago, will see if I can tinker up a decent support build for level 2 and level 7.

[Slipperychicken]

It's also probably worth noting that when I said I want my bard to be ranged, I wasn't specifically referring to archery, though I might use it. I just meant I don't want him in the thick of things if he can avoid it.

Do you mean that you want to focus him on spellcasting and IC? That's perfectly valid for a cohort. Archery gives him something to do during rounds when his spells wouldn't be particularly helpful, since by level 7 (his cohort level when you're level 9), he still won't have the slots to cast spells every round of combat.

If the cohort's getting his own WBL separate from your Ozadrin, you could kit him out with scrolls too. Try to give him skills no-one else is taking, and don't be afraid to keep several knowledge skills below max ranks in case your GM doesn't allow him to use Bardic Knowledge for a check.

[Baroknik]

I'd personally go something like this for a bardy cohort:

32-pb Spellscale Bard

STR 10 (2)
DEX 10 (2)
CON 12 (6)
INT 14 (6)
WIS 8 (0)
CHA 20 (16) + 1 (lvl 4)

(Bardic Knack optional)

Spellscale Substitution levels 1 & 3

Feats:
Dragonfire Inspiration
Lingering Song
Melodic Casting (or Words of Creation)

Skills to Max
Bluff
Perform
UMD
Use Rope (CC)
+Whip Climber (these two are for fun)

Spells:
0 - Songbird

1 - Grease, Inspirational Boost, Master's Touch

2 - Glitterdust

3 - Haste

Sprinkle in the rest of your spells and skills to taste. You could consider going Song of Heart instead of the level 3 Spellscale ACF if your DM would allow it.

[Epsilon Rose]

Alright. Thank you for all the help. I think I know what I want to do now. Please tell me what you think.


Race: Spellscale
Classes: bard 9/Sublime Chord 2/ Heartfire Fanner 5/something that progresses magic and music x (haven't a clue on the last one, but it's not relevant till level 18, maybe a pair of generic advancers on heartfire).
Stats (after race):Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, cha 20
Feats: DFI (1st), Dragonic heritage [sonic] (3rd), Melodic Casting (6th), Negotiator (9th), Skill Focus [perform] (12th), Lingering Song (16th)
ACFs: Bardic Nack, Healing Hymn, Mimiking Song Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart, Swap Inspire Greatness for Haunting Melody
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, Perform (oratory), Spellcraft/ profession(astrology), Diplomacy, Bluff, UMD, Appraise, Misc (lots of skill tricks and probably 5 ranks of balance).
Spells (for the one-shot): Prestidigitation (0), Songbird (0), Flair (0), Inspirational Boost (1), Grease (1).

Some last thoughts: I really wish it was possible to get into Seeker of Song or Sublime Chord a level early. That would let me get two songs at once without delaying my casting by more than a level. I was also thinking of going into magical trap making, but I'd have to re arrange my feats for it and I'm not sure what I'd give up that would be worth it. Finally, I wish I could take an acf for inspire competence (why not, I'll be getting it back eventually anyways), but it's necessary for Song of the Heart.

[Socratov]

remember that casting trumps seeker. The casting is good for supporting: BFC, removing curses, etc. While Seeker only gives a couple of sub-par songs.

And remember to give him all the cure X wounds spells (as well as (mass) vigor) with healing hymn so he can heal brilliantly. Also remember that becuase he is lower level, you want him in the back, so casting and playing is enough. Give him Lingering Song and he can do whatever he wants without needing to keep up the songs.

[Fitz10019]

It might be fun, at later levels, to use your bard's whip proficiency for him to wield a vorpal whip for beheading. Here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295681) about using a vorpal whip.

[Gwendol]

IIRC, you can choose between DFI and vanilla IC each time you use it.



Yes, that's how I do it. People tend to forget about the attack bonus though: unless you are sure your attacks will hit, to a reasonably high probability, regular IC will give additional benefit (DFI that doesn't hit doesn't do damage). Great for clearing out mooks though!

[Slipperychicken]

Yes, that's how I do it. People tend to forget about the attack bonus though: unless you are sure your attacks will hit, to a reasonably high probability, regular IC will give additional benefit (DFI that doesn't hit doesn't do damage). Great for clearing out mooks though!

IIRC, extra points of attack bonus matter until you can hit the target AC on a two, and I believe they increase your expected (non-critical) damage output by +1 damage and then 5% per point until you can hit on a two. So then it's just a matter of comparing the expected gains from vanilla IC and DFI.