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Scorpina
2007-01-14, 03:57 PM
I just got into a debate with my flatmate: do dwarven women have beards? Sources seem to be inconclusive, so I'm wondering what the popular opinion is.

Amotis
2007-01-14, 03:58 PM
Sometimes.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-14, 03:59 PM
I just got into a debate with my flatmate: do dwarven women have beards? Sources seem to be inconclusive, so I'm wondering what the popular opinion is.

Races of Stone says no.

Personally I think they can have them, but it's more normal for female dwarves to shave.

ReluctantDragon
2007-01-14, 04:01 PM
Entirely dependent upon the game a person runs. There is no definitive yes or no answer. It is alluded in Tolkien sources that dwarven women might have beards. Never outright says it though. In early D&D sources, pulling from Tolkien, Dwarven women had beards. In 3.x D&D, the answer is no, they don't. As depicted in the players handbook, they have a plethora of hair on their head, but none chin-wise. Can a person who runs a D&D campaign have dwarven women with beards? Of course.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-14, 04:02 PM
The D&D movie says "Yes".

"She's too skinny lad! What you need is a good dwarven woman... with a beard you CAN HANG ON TOO!" -Elwood

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-14, 04:06 PM
Up to the DM/world designer. I like giving them beards, though, just because I <3 Discworld, and particularly Cheery.

Ali
2007-01-14, 04:13 PM
I would say - yes. But probably nothing like as thick as a male dwarf.

Of course, some probably shave.

A player in the game I'm running plays a dwarven defender, and his character seems to find women without beards very unattractive.

JadedDM
2007-01-14, 04:15 PM
Yeah, it depends on the setting. On my world, no. But in Forgotten Realms they do (I remember that it was hard to tell male and female dwarves apart in Baldur's Gate, eww). Maybe Greyhawk, I'm not sure.

In Dragonlance, female dwarves have 'wispy whiskers that do not form full beards.'

TheElfLord
2007-01-14, 04:28 PM
Tolkien never mentions any female in his world as having a beard, though he mentions that the males of all his races can. I believe that his intention was that Dwarven women not have beards and carry that into my interpetation of DnD.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-14, 04:29 PM
Depends on the scenario.
In Ravenloft, they have, but they usually shave. In Grayhawk, they don't, I think. In some, they have big beards, as big as the males. I think the Lord of the Rings suggests they are like that there.

Ali
2007-01-14, 04:30 PM
Maybe some can grow them, and some can't...

Brickwall
2007-01-14, 04:44 PM
They can, but many choose not to, just like many men choose not to. Only a few of either gender looks good with facial hair, I suppose.

Except all dwarven males have facial hair. It's a magical effect. Shaving doesn't even work. It just grows right back.

BCOVertigo
2007-01-14, 04:53 PM
Tolkien never mentions any female in his world as having a beard, though he mentions that the males of all his races can. I believe that his intention was that Dwarven women not have beards and carry that into my interpetation of DnD.

You sir are mistaken, prepare yourself to make a save versus INSANITY.


Did Dwarf women have beards?

[This updates question V.D.1 of the Tolkien FAQ.]

Yes. The most canonical evidence for this comes in Appendix A, where it is said of Dwarf women that

They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.

It seems that (male) Dwarves in Middle-earth all have beards: among other evidence, as Bilbo sets out on his adventure in The Hobbit, we read that "His only comfort was that he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Given that, the quote above must imply that Dwarf women were bearded as well.

However, we do not need to rely on such implications: Tolkien answered this question explicitly in other texts. In The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951), Tolkien wrote that

no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike...

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, Christopher Tolkien says that a similar statement was present in an earlier draft of Appendix A as well. As these statements are entirely in agreement with the canonical evidence cited above, the conclusion that Dwarf women had beards seems inescapable.

Green Bean
2007-01-14, 04:56 PM
Bah! Of course they have beards! Without beards, they're just fat gnome women!

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-01-14, 04:57 PM
In my world they do have beards, however, many shave them off if they have a taste for human men.

Basically in my world dwarves are one of the oldest races, descended from the midgard dwarves who were banished to my world along with their mountain. This mountain constantly but slowly wanders the world. Those that remain upon it stay outsiders and basically have a neutral gender. Those that left the mountain however were cursed with mortality and recieved genders with similiar impulses in turn. The woman had beards, but were scantier, more silken, etc, and had femininish faces.

The criminals amongst the dwarves were purposely thrown off, and cursing the deities buried as deep into the world as possible to be away from their sight, and became Duergar.

Those that left in arctic climes became glacier dwarves, and so forth.

Humans and dwarves, especially in the last couple thousand years since a cataclysm caused the world to go deep frozen, have formed a deep friendship, with much of theh uman population living underground where its warmer. Subsequently many became a little more than friendly. Thus you can always tell when a female dwarf has a human mate because she tends to shave regularly.

The two races can't have children together though without some serious magical aid.

Diggorian
2007-01-14, 05:05 PM
In my group's games it's left up to the player, whom is usually a woman ... so not in our games. :smallbiggrin:

TheOOB
2007-01-14, 05:24 PM
In my campaign standard (shield) dwarf women do not have beards. They live the closest to the surface and have adapted to be the most like humans of any dwarves.

Mountain dwarf women in my world usually have facial hair, but they generally shave. All other dwarf women have beards.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-14, 05:27 PM
Yes, because.. I like Terry Pratchett. And like someone said above, they could shave.

Neo
2007-01-14, 05:32 PM
It varies by dwarf race/subrace.

Even in Forgotten Realms not all dwarves grow beards, male or female.

Turcano
2007-01-14, 05:50 PM
The D&D movie says "Yes".

"She's too skinny lad! What you need is a good dwarven woman... with a beard you CAN HANG ON TOO!" -Elwood

My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

Seriously, practically everything from the D&D movie requires a San check.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-14, 05:57 PM
My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

Seriously, practically everything from the D&D movie requires a San check.

At least the movie was better than the '80s cartoon. That didn't require a San check: that was a autofail.

MrNexx
2007-01-14, 06:55 PM
To the tune of "Baby Got Back", a song that registers me firmly in the "yes" camp

I like big beards and I can not lie
You other dwarves can't deny
When a girl walks in with a big thick waist
And hair all over her face
You get sprung
Wanna pull up tough
Cuz you notice that face was scruffed
Deep in the helm she's wearing
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring
Oh, baby I wanna get with ya
And take your picture
My homeboys tried to warn me
But that beard you got
Make Me so horny
Ooh, ain't got smooth skin
You say you wanna get in my clan
Well use me use me cuz you aint that average groupie
I've seen them smithin'
The heck with romancin'
She sweats, wet, gots whiskers like my uncle Chet

I'm tired of elven queens
With their smooth little things
Take the average dwarf and ask him that
Her face has gotta scratch, so
fellas (yeah) fellas (yeah)
Has your dwarf-girl got the beard? (heck yeah!)
Don't let her shave it, shave it
Keep that healthy beard...

Baby got beard...

Hairy face makes for dwarven beauty...

MrNexx
2007-01-14, 07:00 PM
At least the movie was better than the '80s cartoon. That didn't require a San check: that was a autofail.

Oh, admit it, Fax... it was frickin' METAL when you were five.

Ashes
2007-01-14, 07:10 PM
Oh, admit it, Fax... it was frickin' METAL when you were five.


That show rocked so much! Made a marathon about six months ago where my group and I watched all of the DVDs. It was great.

And I'm in the camp that says "no beard". Just because I think it's gross.

CuthroatMcGee
2007-01-14, 07:15 PM
I'm torn between Discworld, where all dwarves have beards and gender is pretty much optional, and a 3rd party, 3rd edition sourcebook I got for Christmas that suggests that there are no dwarf women, and that young dwarves are formed from rock in caves (Secrets is the sourcebook, but I'm too lazy to go find the book's publisher). So I'm not sure. But if they exist, I'll bet they do have beards.

Dhavaer
2007-01-14, 07:32 PM
None of the illustrations in the books have bearded dwarven women. Beardless.

Thomas
2007-01-14, 07:33 PM
I voted yes, but I specifically think they have sideburns and whiskers (in Faerûn, that is). Some may grow beards, but they don't grow them as long and as thick as the dwarven men do.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-14, 07:33 PM
Oh, admit it, Fax... it was frickin' METAL when you were five.

It was, but seeing it the other night made me cry.

Thomas
2007-01-14, 07:39 PM
My eyes! The goggles do nothing!


Goggles: They do nothing.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 100 gp.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-14, 07:42 PM
Goggles: They do nothing.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 100 gp.

VICTORY FOR THOMAS. *plays Hail to the Chief*

Khantalas
2007-01-14, 07:49 PM
Yes, because I like Weis & Hickman's work.

OK, you just have to find out which one.

Matthew
2007-01-14, 08:50 PM
It was, but seeing it the other night made me cry.

So wrong. That cartoon was the greatest. What episode were you watching?

Oh yeah, Dwarf Women have beards according to Tolkien, but he was often unsettled on the specifics of Middle Earth. They don't have beards in my games, that's for sure. Nor are Dwarf Men born with beards - that's just too weird....

Wait, is this about Dwarven or Dwaren women?

Norsesmithy
2007-01-14, 10:11 PM
I say no, but perhaps the occurace of bearded ladies is higher in dwarven communities than human, and they aren't stigmatised like a human bearded lady.

Lets say 1 out of 64 dwarven women can grow beards.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-14, 10:15 PM
I actually like the look of dwarven women with sideburns to the level of almost-a-beard. It's kind of a neat aesthetic.

I didn't vote though. I would say you could go either way; I'm not a big fan of insisting on a "right" way to do anything in fantasy.

Turcano
2007-01-14, 10:23 PM
Goggles: They do nothing.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 100 gp.

But if they do nothing, why are they a wondrous item instead of mundane equipment?

That was pretty awesome, though. :smallbiggrin:

Deathcow
2007-01-14, 11:11 PM
There are no dwarven women; dwarves reproduce through spores. Seriously, it's right there in the, um, Player's Guide to the Peculiarities of Dwarven Reproduciton. Seriously.

Jayabalard
2007-01-14, 11:21 PM
Oh, admit it, Fax... it was frickin' METAL when you were five.hell yeah!

Fax Celestis
2007-01-14, 11:27 PM
There are no dwarven women; dwarves reproduce through spores. Seriously, it's right there in the, um, Player's Guide to the Peculiarities of Dwarven Reproduciton. Seriously.

Spores are elves. Dwarves are fission.

MandibleBones
2007-01-15, 12:37 AM
Spores are elves. Dwarves are fission.

QFT. Poncy elves.


But if they do nothing, why are they a wondrous item instead of mundane equipment?

Cursed item?

Jade_Tarem
2007-01-15, 12:51 AM
(I remember that it was hard to tell male and female dwarves apart in Baldur's Gate, eww

Um, try to remember that, awesome though it was, Baldur's Gate is a very old game, with limited puppet models and graphics (and I remember those pics too *shudders*). Also, i think in Baldur's Gate II they changed it so that they don't, and if I was at home I could check. Either way, Baldur's gate is based on the Forgotten Realms setting but is not, to my knowledge, actually written into the history of the setting. Also, I believe that the dwarven women of NWN and NWN2 lack beards.

Devils_Advocate
2007-01-15, 03:25 AM
But if they do nothing, why are they a wondrous item instead of mundane equipment?
Because they do nothing magically. Duh.

(In Nethack, there is -- if I recall correctly -- a Wand of Nothing. It even has charges, I think. You can zap it and it will procede to do nothing.)

Aimbot
2007-01-15, 03:51 AM
There are no dwarven women; dwarves reproduce through spores. Seriously, it's right there in the, um, Player's Guide to the Peculiarities of Dwarven Reproduciton. Seriously.

You're thinking of Orks.

Nocturne
2007-01-15, 05:05 AM
The D&D movie says "Yes".

"She's too skinny lad! What you need is a good dwarven woman... with a beard you CAN HANG ON TOO!" -Elwood

I saw that movie awhile back, and I can't remember all the details. But my perverted mind is suggesting to me that they that they might just have been referring to the "beards" between their legs, rather than on their faces. :smallbiggrin: Although I could be wrong.

I voted yes, anyway, because I like the idea of it. Makes Dwarves all the more "strange" to humans.

Cheers
Nocturne

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-15, 06:56 AM
Tolkien never mentions any female in his world as having a beard, though he mentions that the males of all his races can. I believe that his intention was that Dwarven women not have beards and carry that into my interpetation of DnD.
There were no dwarf women with beards in his stories because there were no dwarf women in his stories. :smalltongue: The women of Tolkien's dwarves did have beards; this is alluded to in one of the appendices to The Lord of the Rings wherein it states that dwarven women do not travel outside of their halls except in utter necessity, and when they do outsiders cannot tell because when wearing traveling cloaks they are nearly indistinguishable from the men. Hence, beards.

Matthew
2007-01-15, 07:03 AM
Those passages can be interpreted either way and were long debated. However, Tolkien does flat out state that all Dwarven Men and Women are born with beards elsewhere (see above). Middle Earth was a world in progress, though, and is not always perfectly consistant.

Certainly Tolkien never took any great pains to draw attention to this particular oddity. For instance, Gimli never says "That Galadriel is beautiful, but you know what would really improve her looks? A beard!" (Maybe he did think that, I don't know)

Ambrogino
2007-01-15, 07:06 AM
In my games, only on Discworld. I'd like to move away from the stereotypical Male dwarf having to have a beard, let alone female. Outside of comedy, it makes about as much sense as Elven males having breasts or Male orcs getting pregnant - possible if the species is described as coming from a totally different physical makeup but nonesensical if they're meant to be similar enough to humans to breed with them. And I like Muls, so I go with the second interpretation.

Narmoth
2007-01-15, 08:58 AM
Bah! Of course they have beards! Without beards, they're just fat gnome women!

In my game, there are only 3 standard player rases: Human, Elf & Dwarf.
The dwarfs fill therefore the role of both dwarfs and gnomes, and I use half dwarfes as halflings. Halfelves have elven stats but are much more common than elves.
Therefore, the dwarfen females, as a standard, haven't got beards.
Still, if anyone wanted, they could play a bearded dwarfen woman. :durkon:

Thomas
2007-01-15, 09:17 AM
And I like Muls, so I go with the second interpretation.

Athasian dwarves (and muls) are completely hairless anyway.

Ambrogino
2007-01-15, 09:27 AM
Athasian dwarves (and muls) are completely hairless anyway.

Really? I know Muls are hairless but I thought Athasian Dwarves shaved.

I don't think that contradicts my basic point at any rate. Women with beards should be descended from lichen or something, not mammals.

Leush
2007-01-15, 09:33 AM
Ambrogino, have you ever seen a half-dwarf. I haven't, and I don't want to. Perhaps they're different from humans in terms reproductive physiology. Perhaps they have a higher level of the hormone that makes you chin sprout hair.

In fact this whole thread is gross. It makes me want to make a character. A dwarven woman with a beard.... I think I failed my san check, pass me the goggles.

Thomas
2007-01-15, 09:37 AM
Really? I know Muls are hairless but I thought Athasian Dwarves shaved.

I don't think that contradicts my basic point at any rate. Women with beards should be descended from lichen or something, not mammals.

Nope, hairless. Never any mention of shaving.

Leush: We've already covered muls. They're half-dwarves. (Half-dwarves - not muls - also exist in Faerûn, though they don't have any special stats of their own.)

Athenodorus
2007-01-15, 09:37 AM
Of _course_ they have beards!

Pepper
2007-01-15, 10:07 AM
I had always assumed that dwarven womens beards were the reason for the males ill-temper. :p

mikeejimbo
2007-01-15, 11:17 AM
Up to the DM/world designer. I like giving them beards, though, just because I <3 Discworld, and particularly Cheery.

QFT, on all accounts.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-15, 01:23 PM
Beards? I don't give them beards.

Just an adam's apple :D

zeratul
2007-01-15, 01:26 PM
I think it's about equal likeleness for a human or dwarf woman to have a beward

Thomas
2007-01-15, 01:40 PM
I r seriose poster, this is now a seriose thread

Seems like a lot of people think of dwarves as just short, grumpy humans. "Of course the females don't have beards, human females don't have them!" How dull is that? They're a nonhuman race - how about making them, I don't know, nonhuman?

D&D doesn't exactly support it, officially, but why should players be as dull as the writers?

This is why I love Glorantha, again. Mostali (Gloranthan dwarves) are real nonhumans. So they live in mines and fortresses in mountains and underground, and don't get along with Aldryami (elves; dwarves started it by using Death on the elves in Godtime). That's about it for similarities to classic fantasy dwarves. They come in castes named after metals (tin, bronze, copper, gold, silver, quicksilver, iron...), and view themselves as living components of the Machine (which is the entire world; everyone else is just some sort of malfunction or defect or nuisance, like rust or dirt on gears). They live according to the Schedule, working eternally, with no perceivable personal lives. The genders (if they actually exist) are indistinguishable; when the Schedule shows it is time, alchemist-wizards take two dwarves of the correct genders, show them how to work the "mortar and pestle," and leave them to it. The baby is raised in some sort of magical-mechanical-alchemical container, and is born and raised to work.

They're made slightly more engaging and interesting by the malfunctions (or philosophies, if you will) some of them display, such as Open-Handedness (a belief that the Schedule is incomplete, and input is needed from outside, from humans, dragonewts, even elves and trolls; this includes trading and otherwise interacting with the rest of the world).

Also, their beards are actually sensory organs for navigating underground, in the darkness, by sensing air currents...


Why should dwarves just be short, stocky humans with bad tempers and Scottish accents? (And why Scottish?)

Fax Celestis
2007-01-15, 01:51 PM
Why should dwarves just be short, stocky humans with bad tempers and Scottish accents? (And why Scottish?)

Glorantha is indeed awesome.

As for accents, my dwarves are from everywhere: "Ach, laddie, how aboot geeveng moi a leeft, eh? I've gawt billz to pay, homes, an' I ain't gon' laik takin' four hours to wawk w'en joo can jus' gimme a rayd."

"...my homie-homeslice-g-funk-pimp-dawg-in-da-hood, yo."

Hurlbut
2007-01-15, 01:53 PM
Glorantha is indeed awesome.

As for accents, my dwarves are from everywhere: "Ach, laddie, how aboot geeveng moi a leeft, eh? I've gawt billz to pay, homes, an' I ain't gon' laik takin' four hours to wawk w'en joo can jus' gimme a rayd."

"...my homie-homeslice-g-funk-pimp-dawg-in-da-hood, yo."

Because scottish sound gruffy?

zeratul
2007-01-15, 01:55 PM
I r seriose poster, this is now a seriose thread
Why should dwarves just be short, stocky humans with bad tempers and Scottish accents? (And why Scottish?)

dwarves are short and bed temperes because the norse invented them to be that way and current mythology(including dungeons and dragons) has kept it that way. as for the accents........ well scottish people rock so why not. in closing i would once again like to say that scottish people rock

Ambrogino
2007-01-15, 02:26 PM
Seems like a lot of people think of dwarves as just short, grumpy humans. "Of course the females don't have beards, human females don't have them!" How dull is that? They're a nonhuman race - how about making them, I don't know, nonhuman?

I love the Mountain Folk, who are the dwarves in Exalted. They're carved out of rock that's a calcified remnant of what was once a pure embodiment of chaos, and are under a species wide geas not to rise up against the realm (human society). They have three different castes, workers warriors and the other one whose name I can't remember, who are more human like in proportion and are the shapers capable of carving more dwarves. They're also pretty much living rich of the undereducated lower caste's labours.

But demihumans in D&D aren't (with rare exception) described as non-humans. They're short moody humans with beards, and female humans with beards is stupid to me. I could change it- but why not play Exalted or Runequest where it's already changed for me?

Thomas
2007-01-15, 02:33 PM
But demihumans in D&D aren't (with rare exception) described as non-humans. They're short moody humans with beards, and female humans with beards is stupid to me. I could change it- but why not play Exalted or Runequest where it's already changed for me?

Actually, Faerûnian dwarf women do grow facial hair. Even in D&D, it's world-specific.

clarkvalentine
2007-01-15, 02:45 PM
In my old homebrew, Dwarves were actually embodiments of the earth itself, little earth elementals with the humanoid type. There are no dwarf women (or men, for that matter, they had no need) - they emerged from the very living rock in their deeply delved caverns.

Scorpina
2007-01-15, 02:50 PM
Actually, Faerûnian dwarf women do grow facial hair. Even in D&D, it's world-specific.


Well according to Races of Faerun only 'a few' female Gold Dwarves and 'a very few' female Shield Dwarves have beards. Though 'some' Urdunnir ladies have beards. There is no mention of Duergar or Arctic Dwarf women having any kind of facial hair at all.

MrNexx
2007-01-15, 06:22 PM
Ambrogino, have you ever seen a half-dwarf.

Played one. Dwarven Thief. Favored a light crossbow, almost all of his points in FaRT and OL. Have the rules for a half-dwarf within arm's reach, if I stretch a bit.


I think I failed my san check, pass me the goggles.

They do nothing.

Tough_Tonka
2007-01-15, 09:45 PM
Well technically even human women have grin hair. My sisters and mother have chin hair they have to pluck. They just have less hair then men on their chins. So I geuss Dwarven women do have beards if only a few chin hairs.

TheThan
2007-01-16, 01:52 AM
I voted no beards, why you ask?

Beards are a very masculine thing to have. Having a female with a beard gives them too much masculinity for my taste. Having some (such as a tomboy or female warrior) masculinity doesn’t bother me. But even then many tomboys are still clearly female. Female dwarves ( or orcs or whatever) should have enough femininity for players to identify with them. Too much masculinity for females of any race sort of makes seem less believable race.

Since all the base dnd player races are essentially based off of humans, its reasonable for them to be similar enough for humans (IE us) to identify with. Now if you as a dm want to make your race completely alien go ahead, I’m all for that.

Aimbot
2007-01-16, 02:11 AM
I voted no beards, why you ask?

Beards are a very masculine thing to have. Having a female with a beard gives them too much masculinity for my taste. Having some (such as a tomboy or female warrior) masculinity doesn’t bother me. But even then many tomboys are still clearly female. Female dwarves ( or orcs or whatever) should have enough femininity for players to identify with them. Too much masculinity for females of any race sort of makes seem less believable race.

Since all the base dnd player races are essentially based off of humans, its reasonable for them to be similar enough for humans (IE us) to identify with. Now if you as a dm want to make your race completely alien go ahead, I’m all for that.
Female Dwarves can have facial hair and still be feminine. It's just more square inches for you to not notice when they stylize it.

Jewish_Joke
2007-01-16, 02:20 AM
I voted yes. Although I do agree that it really is up to you and what you want for your campaign, I follow the Middle-Earth and Faerunian tradition that dwarf women are as capable of growing beards as dwarf men. This isn't to say that they can't be feminine. As a man of Jewish descent, I can assure you that I have met a number of "bearded" women who still managed to come off as charmingly lady-like, not to mention delicate and other numerous feminine qualities.

I myself, describe dwarven women as being capable of growing beards, but not moustaches. Moustaches are the only distinguishing feature between the genders.

Erk
2007-01-16, 02:27 AM
I don't understand why this is such a foreign idea to so many people.
1) dwarves are not humans. What they find attractive is not necessarily the same as what humans find attractive. Hell, what someone from the middle ages found attractive is not the same as what we find attractive today, and that is within the same race of the same species. So why is it so bizarre that dwarves might find bearded ladies nice?
2) Male dwarves seem to have far, far lusher facial hair than male humans. Female humans already have facial hair, it is just thin. Some even have pretty thick hair. It is not hard to step that up to being a beard.

and seriously...
None of the illustrations in the books have bearded dwarven women. Beardless.is that not the most boring way to play a pencil-and-paper campaign possible? The whole advantage to tabletop is that no rule is hard and fast, everything is flexible and alive. At least, I think so.

Anyway, it all boils down to choice, but my little dwarven rogue with her cute braided beard with the blue bows in it shows my opinion on the matter.

JonathanC
2007-01-16, 02:35 AM
I just got into a debate with my flatmate: do dwarven women have beards? Sources seem to be inconclusive, so I'm wondering what the popular opinion is.

Depends on the setting. There is never a definitive answer for these things...there are too many variants. Take elves, for example.

Keebler elves are tiny little guys who live in a tree and make cookies.

Tolkien elves live in trees, but are taller than men, immortal, and make magical bread (among other things).

D&D elves are slightly shorter and thinner than humans, don't make magical items any better than anyone else, and are not immortal (though they are long-lived.

Elvaan from Final Fantasy XI are taller than humans and much more muscular, less agile, extremely strong, and live in a walled fortress city. Their lifestyle is dedicated to swordsmanship.

And the list could go on. In Middle Earth, Dwarven women have beards. In D&D, they generally do not (I've yet to see a setting where they do). In Warcraft, they definitely do not have beards.

Divides
2007-01-16, 03:12 AM
Huh? Nothing personal, but I don't get you people who are saying that dwarven women shouldn't have beards because it makes them "non-human." Dwarves are demi-humans: they're supposed to be SIMILAR to humans, but not identicle. Besides, (it's already been said, but) even if that wasn't the case, it's not unheard of for human women to grow facial hair... so it's actually less weird than, say, an elf's pointy ears.

Now, that said, I do realize that most illustrations don't show dwarven women as having facial hair. Actually, the most common argument I've seen is "dwarf women do grow facial hair, but most shave them off," but I doubt that's the original intent.

On the other hand, in my own campaigns I usually have a somewhat fancier ruling: dwarf women do, infact, grow beards, but they're "girly beards," being much lighter, thinner, softer, and smoother than those found on male dwarves... or even male humans, for that matter (it's not uncommon for a dwarf woman in my campaigns to even have blonde beards, or the like). Shaving is more common for dwarf women than dwarf men (many dwarven comunities consider a beardless male a mark of shame... only a tiny percentage share that same outlook to beardless women), and even those who don't shave typically trim their beard, keeping them in the form of nice, well groomed goatees (this idea being somewhat borrowed from the "NERO" LARP). (This idea makes dwarf women more "exotic" without completely ruining their feminine nature.)

But, as has been said, it's really up to the campaign.

Ambrogino
2007-01-16, 05:53 AM
(it's not uncommon for a dwarf woman in my campaigns to even have blonde beards, or the like

You understand that it's possible for humans to have blonde beards right? Like blonde pubic hair it's a more recessive trait than blonde scalp hair, but hardly unheard of. The majority of men with very blonde beards shave, as the colour stands out less against skin and as a result looks wispier, but it's quite possible, and not a strange fantasy thing.

Matthew
2007-01-16, 05:54 AM
I don't understand why this is such a foreign idea to so many people.
1) dwarves are not humans. What they find attractive is not necessarily the same as what humans find attractive. Hell, what someone from the middle ages found attractive is not the same as what we find attractive today, and that is within the same race of the same species. So why is it so bizarre that dwarves might find bearded ladies nice?


Actually we know full well that Gimli thought Galadriel the most beautiful woman he ever laid eyes upon. Maybe he thought she would look better with a beard, but somehow I doubt it.

Medieval conceptions of beauty were actually very similar to those espoused now. Pale, blond and willowy. Victorian conceptions of beauty, well that's different.

Thomas
2007-01-16, 05:56 AM
Tolkien elves live in trees

Actually, they live in palaces, great cities, underground halls, etc. Only sylvan elves (who are the "least" of elves) live "in trees" (and even they pretty much build cities among trees).


Well technically even human women have grin hair. My sisters and mother have chin hair they have to pluck. They just have less hair then men on their chins. So I geuss Dwarven women do have beards if only a few chin hairs.

Yeah. It seems logical enough that if all dwarven men have thick beards, then dwarven women grow whiskers, at least.


Female Dwarves can have facial hair and still be feminine. It's just more square inches for you to not notice when they stylize it.

Paul Kidby's pictures of Cheery Littlebottom. Can't mistake her for a him, even with the beard.


None of the illustrations in the books have bearded dwarven women. Beardless.

Which illustrations is this? I've got plenty of AD&D books with bearded or whiskered dwarf women.


In D&D, they generally do not (I've yet to see a setting where they do).

I'd like you to meet Forgotten Realms...

Divides
2007-01-16, 01:54 PM
You understand that it's possible for humans to have blonde beards right? Like blonde pubic hair it's a more recessive trait than blonde scalp hair, but hardly unheard of. The majority of men with very blonde beards shave, as the colour stands out less against skin and as a result looks wispier, but it's quite possible, and not a strange fantasy thing.

Yes, I do. The key words in my statement were "not uncommon" :-p.

reorith
2007-01-16, 02:00 PM
no, but they are still pretty ugly

Divides
2007-01-16, 02:02 PM
no, but they are still pretty ugly

HEY! That's my girlfriend you're talking about!!!



Oh... wait...
:-p.

Scalenex
2007-01-17, 01:47 AM
The D&D movie says "Yes".

"She's too skinny lad! What you need is a good dwarven woman... with a beard you CAN HANG ON TOO!" -Elwood

I'm pretty sure he said "...with some chin hairs you can grab on to!" and not beard per se. I like the idea of chin hairs. That is the middle ground between beard and no-beard. Dwarves are demi-humans as a few people have mentioned so they should be human-like. Human women have facial hair but rarely enough to grow beards and most try to pluck, shave, and/or bleach it away. Dwarf and human men can grow facial hair. Dwarves tend to have much much more facial hair. I figure Dwarf women have proportionately more facial hair than human women roughly the same way in that they have noticeable but not overwhelming facial hair and definitely short of beards.

That being said it's up to personal preference. If you want to give them beards to illustrate their incongruity with humans, good for you. If you want to give them beards for the humor aspect, that's okay but it will contribute to the tone of your game for good or ill.

Another option is to just ignore the question altogether. The preponderance of evidence from Tolkien's writing says that dwarven women have beards but it can still go either way. It never really comes up because dwarf women are not involved in his stories. Unless your game has a female dwarf PC or a named or statted female dwarf NPC, it will likely never come up.

P.S. I am mildly ashamed at myself for responding to this

MrNexx
2007-01-17, 01:59 AM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190374/quotes

According to IMDB, it's a beard.

Scalenex
2007-01-17, 02:13 AM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190374/quotes

According to IMDB, it's a beard.

I have genuine constructed memories that it was chin hairs!

The Internet Movie Database is wrong! You're wrong! I demand satisfaction!

slaps Mr. Nexx with leather glove

Sadly there is no way to duel on a message board....no way that won't attract negative mod attention anyway.

Nocturne
2007-01-17, 03:33 AM
P.S. I am mildly ashamed at myself for responding to this

LOL whatever for??! :smallredface:

Ambrogino
2007-01-17, 05:19 AM
Yes, I do. The key words in my statement were "not uncommon" :-p.

And it's not uncommon in humans - so why was there a need to point it out?

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-17, 06:32 AM
I vote "No". I might be narrow minded, but I find the idea of bearded women far to disturbing. To me, dwarven women are short, stocky ladies who are probably named Helga or some such. :smallwink:

EDIT: I had a dream once where it was perfectly normal for women to grow beards, in fact, I think it was considered typically feminine to do so. Seemed all right to me at the time, until I woke up.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 06:43 AM
Another option is to just ignore the question altogether. The preponderance of evidence from Tolkien's writing says that dwarven women have beards but it can still go either way. It never really comes up because dwarf women are not involved in his stories. Unless your game has a female dwarf PC or a named or statted female dwarf NPC, it will likely never come up.

Tolkien's work could have been interpreted either way (the evidence was slight) until the he outright stated that both Dwarven Women and Men were born with beards. That pretty much puts an end to the discussion. It is, however, noticeable that he goes to no great lengths to suggest this elsewhere and important to remember that Middle Earth was a work in progress.

Hoggmaster
2007-01-17, 10:40 AM
The only Female Dwarf mentioned in Tolkien Canon (LotR and the Hobbit) is Dis, the mother of Fili and Kili, sister to Thorin Oakenshield. It does not say if she wore a beard. I voted no, due to the various definitions of bearded. I do not think however that they are smooth skinned. I feel that they are hirsute to the extreme, i.e. must shave or look as if a ragged pre-beard is possessed.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 11:11 AM
True, but:



However, we do not need to rely on such implications: Tolkien answered this question explicitly in other texts. In The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951), Tolkien wrote that:

"no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..."


There is no question as to whether Tolkien's female Dwarves had beards or not, as distasteful and illogical as I find the idea. Of course, there is also no indication that Elves have pointed ears in the texts, only in a letter to an artist.

TheElfLord
2007-01-17, 12:13 PM
True, but:



There is no question as to whether Tolkien's female Dwarves had beards or not, as distasteful and illogical as I find the idea. Of course, there is also no indication that Elves have pointed ears in the texts, only in a letter to an artist.

I've read the Sillmarillion several times and never seen this passage. And this is the first time it has come up in a disscussion on this board. In every other place and time people have asked if Tolkien's dwarf women had beards, only the vague comment from Apendix A has been mentioned. I tried to find a site that mentioned this and only saw the first part of the longer quote, the part mentioning Apendix A.

So I have to say I'm slightly skeptical because the only place I have seen reference to this absolute statement by Tolkien was in one quote in this thread.

Addition: I also remember the qutoe being chin hairs and its almost making me want to watch the movie again to make sure.

Rebonack
2007-01-17, 12:18 PM
True, but:



There is no question as to whether Tolkien's female Dwarves had beards or not, as distasteful and illogical as I find the idea. Of course, there is also no indication that Elves have pointed ears in the texts, only in a letter to an artist.

Illogical?

I can see unpleasant due to our thoughts on beauty and gender differences as humans, but illogical?

The fact that most human women don't have beards is due to a few superficial genetic differences. Illogical would imply that there's some kind of inherent irrationality about women having beards, which there clearly isn't.

I suppose I like the concept of all dwarves having beards because it helps make them something other than short grumpy humans.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 03:03 PM
The ElfLord:
If you head back through this thread to page 1, you will see the quote and reference in full from the Tolkien News Group FAQ. As far as I can tell, Tolkien's published work does not outright say that Dwarven Women had beards, but this earlier draft from 1951 does say so explicitly. According to Christopher Tolkien, Appendix A once very much resembled this passage. My view is that at some point Tolkien decided that Dwarven Women had beards, but later on he seems to have preferred to keep the question potentially open.

Rebonack:
I consider it illogical because it is never mentioned in the narrative texts at all and Gimli's conception of beauty doesn't seem to include beards for women. I just don't 'get' where this comes from or the purpose behind it. Genetics have little to no bearing on fantasy races, especially with regard to something as heavily stylised as Middle Earth.

Tolkien provides a good few descriptions of Dwarves and likely traits, none of which seem particularly alien. Giving the women beards just seems like the worst kind of superficial distinctions. Dwarves are different, because they are born with beards and so are their women?

Divides
2007-01-17, 05:19 PM
And it's not uncommon in humans - so why was there a need to point it out?

Not uncommon in humans? Where the hell do you live? I've seen, like, 1 person with a blond beard...

Heck, even the claim that it WOULD be common if most people didn't shave it off (which is what I'm assuming you MENT, even though it's not what I was talking about) doesn't seem to prove true, because a large percentage of the people I've seen that have beards (most likely because of the kind of crowds I hang out with) have beards because they're lazy slobs, not because there's any shred of aesthetics to it (and FYI: 've seen a LOT of non-blond whispy beards that people just ignore... fact remains I've only seen one beard that was blond... atleast, such that I can recall). I suppose it's possible that the people I've been hanging out with are more inclined to keep an ugly brown/black beard than an ugly blond beard... but if so, I'm jotting this down as another way in which I do not understand my peers :-p.

But anyway, that's beside the point, because I was talking about having blond beards, not the potential to grow them. It's actually fairly common for human women with the potential to grow "whispy" facial hair as well... yet I don't see you jumping on people for mentioning the notion of dwarf women with whiskers.


[EDIT ADDED]

Anyway, to answer your question about why I'd point out it's more common in dwarf women to have blond beards than human/dwarf men is the same reason it's worth pointing out that elves tend to be skinny... it's just a side note about how I like to handle the race and it's leanings...

That help clear anything up?

knightsaline
2007-01-17, 06:09 PM
It deplends on the setting. the Forgotten realms books by R.A. Salvatore seem to say that female dwarves have beards. (catti-brie is constantly told by thibbledorf pwent that she "should work on growing a beard"). the computer game icewind dale, if you choose to have a female dwarf in your party, the female dwarf has a beard.

Dragonlance: not many female dwarves are seen or heard of in the DR books I read.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 06:28 PM
In my most complete homebrewed campaign setting, dwarves were all originally humans that were cursed for their greed to stand eye-to-eye to the creatures they drove out of ancestral caves in order to mine them for rare ores (these creatures were goblins). Beards grow on dwarves exactly as they do on humans, but most male dwarves choose it simply because they look ridiculous without them.

But in that campaign, most every race was somehow branched off of either humans or goblins, with the humans being the original dominant species of the planet and goblins coming a little later by peculiar means (I never bothered explaining it directly, but I hinted that they were actually the equivalent of martians that lost all their tech after crashing).

Dire Penguin
2007-01-17, 06:34 PM
Close poll: but if a dwarf doesn't have a beard...is it really a dwarf?

Divides
2007-01-17, 06:35 PM
Close poll: but if a dwarf doesn't have a beard...is it really a dwarf?

Yes... just a very shameful one :-p.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 06:46 PM
I'm wondering how many women voted yes...

Divides
2007-01-17, 08:24 PM
I'm wondering how many women voted yes...

When I just read this I thought it said, "It's wonderful how many women voted yes." :-p.

Was kinda like, "zwaa?"

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:27 PM
Oh, dear. I should have used better punctuation. Stupid internet.

Divides
2007-01-17, 08:29 PM
Oh, dear. I should have used better punctuation. Stupid internet.

Huh?

No... I'm pretty sure it's just my delusional brain.....

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:30 PM
*Laughs* Yes, but it would have been a lot clearer as:

I'm wondering how many women voted "yes"...

Goblin Music
2007-01-17, 09:13 PM
YES they do!!!!!
In all if not most fantasy novels they do!!!!

Matthew
2007-01-17, 09:44 PM
That's a broad brush. What novels did you have in mind?

(It's worth noting that the Dwarven Woman the Order of the Stick comic appears to be unbearded...)

Ashes
2007-01-17, 10:57 PM
Dragonlance: not many female dwarves are seen or heard of in the DR books I read.

IIRC female dwarves in Dragonlance have thick sideburns. I think I remember that being mentioned lots of times. Especially Flint's mother who'd pull hers when whe got upset.

JadedDM
2007-01-18, 02:25 AM
I'll post it once more.


Yeah, it depends on the setting. On my world, no. But in Forgotten Realms they do (I remember that it was hard to tell male and female dwarves apart in Baldur's Gate, eww). Maybe Greyhawk, I'm not sure.

In Dragonlance, female dwarves have 'wispy whiskers that do not form full beards.'

Bender
2007-01-18, 02:48 AM
Not uncommon in humans? Where the hell do you live? I've seen, like, 1 person with a blond beard...

Heck, even the claim that it WOULD be common if most people didn't shave it off (which is what I'm assuming you MENT, even though it's not what I was talking about) doesn't seem to prove true, because a large percentage of the people I've seen that have beards (most likely because of the kind of crowds I hang out with) have beards because they're lazy slobs, not because there's any shred of aesthetics to it (and FYI: 've seen a LOT of non-blond whispy beards that people just ignore... fact remains I've only seen one beard that was blond... atleast, such that I can recall). I suppose it's possible that the people I've been hanging out with are more inclined to keep an ugly brown/black beard than an ugly blond beard... but if so, I'm jotting this down as another way in which I do not understand my peers :-p.


The reason for not seeing blond beards is just that blond is not very common, except in northern Europe. Being blond myself, I can assure you I can grow a full blond beard. It is quite useful, because when I don't shave for 5 days, nobody sees because it's blond.
Some blond men do indeed have reddish beards, but never brown or black as far as I know (and you would see that because it shows after one not shaven day) This is also a way to tell wether a man has died his hair blond :smallwink:

apart from that, I have the opinion dwarf women do have beards. The picture in the PHB is wrong, and oh boy, is the female dwarf in that picture ugly (almost as ugly as the female half-orc), she'd better hidden it with a beard.
And why wouldn't there be worlds where female humans or elves have beards and wear them...?

Divides
2007-01-18, 03:11 AM
The reason for not seeing blond beards is just that blond is not very common, except in northern Europe. Being blond myself, I can assure you I can grow a full blond beard. It is quite useful, because when I don't shave for 5 days, nobody sees because it's blond.


Blond isn't common?

Um...

Um.....

Seriously, where the hell are you people from?!?



Some blond men do indeed have reddish beards, but never brown or black as far as I know (and you would see that because it shows after one not shaven day) This is also a way to tell wether a man has died his hair blond :smallwink:


In my experience, you're wrong. Facial hair is not like the hair on one's head... it's almost always a shade or two darker (unless the hair on one's head is already fairly dark). I, myself, stand as evidence of this.

Your statement is interesting, though, as I've never seen a blond man with a red beard at all.

... Frankly, I'm starting to wonder what planet some of you people are from :-p.



apart from that, I have the opinion dwarf women do have beards. The picture in the PHB is wrong, and oh boy, is the female dwarf in that picture ugly (almost as ugly as the female half-orc), she'd better hidden it with a beard.
And why wouldn't there be worlds where female humans or elves have beards and wear them...?

Well, yes, but that's a whole other issue :-p.

Bender
2007-01-18, 04:05 AM
Blond isn't common?


Don't be mistaken by all the blond girls, a large majority of them dyes their hair. Genes for blond are regressive, which means the children of a blond haired and a black haired are more likely to be black. Except for Northern and middle Europe and Northern America, blond is almost non-existent. And even in those places, it's still more common to have dark hair (except perhaps in Scandinavia).



In my experience, you're wrong. Facial hair is not like the hair on one's head... it's almost always a shade or two darker (unless the hair on one's head is already fairly dark). I, myself, stand as evidence of this.

Your statement is interesting, though, as I've never seen a blond man with a red beard at all.


My blond facial hair is exactly the same colour as the hair closest to my head: it's darker because it doesn't see as much sunshine as the longer hair on top of my head. It doesn't have a chance to bleach. (I'm a darker shade of blond, not white-blond)
The beards of the very rare men with blond long beards, have a chance to bleach as well.
Of course their is indeed a difference between facial hair and the hair on top of my head, but also the hair on the arms and legs of blond people is light.


Besides, I think I said reddish instead of read, it's only for men who are darker blond and probably have some red-haired ancestors. Older men who have beards more often are grey, and thus disappear from the statistics as well.

It makes me wonder why dwarven men and women don't all have red beards, because, judging from the accent, they all have Scottish or Irish ancestors.



... Frankly, I'm starting to wonder what planet some of you people are from :-p.


Earth

Dark
2007-01-18, 04:49 AM
Certainly Tolkien never took any great pains to draw attention to this particular oddity. For instance, Gimli never says "That Galadriel is beautiful, but you know what would really improve her looks? A beard!" (Maybe he did think that, I don't know)
That's because the people in Lord of the Rings don't think that way. Galadriel was a fair maiden, not an object of lust. As such, her qualities of fair-maidenhood were intrinsic and did not depend on the viewer.

The only female character who is described at all seductively is... Shelob :)

Thomas
2007-01-18, 05:03 AM
Tolkien provides a good few descriptions of Dwarves and likely traits, none of which seem particularly alien. Giving the women beards just seems like the worst kind of superficial distinctions. Dwarves are different, because they are born with beards and so are their women?

Nope, they're different because the beard is a sensory organ, and of course both genders have it...

Nyeh heh.



In my experience, you're wrong. Facial hair is not like the hair on one's head... it's almost always a shade or two darker

Except when it's lighter, like mine.

Anyway, your personal experience is obviously entirely irrelevant, since it does not represent any sort of statistical analysis, just your unrecorded, obviously unreliable recollections of past observations.



That's because the people in Lord of the Rings don't think that way. Galadriel was a fair maiden, not an object of lust. As such, her qualities of fair-maidenhood were intrinsic and did not depend on the viewer.

I'd say "Angelic Apparition." The point of even Gimli being so awestruck, I think, was to underscore how transcendently beautiful a noldo elf is. (Although this was sort of touched on with Glorfindel and his shining aura.)

ittybittykitty
2007-01-18, 05:18 AM
Dwarven women don't have beards by default in my games. No reason, particularly. They just don't.

However, a player in one of my games made a somewhat distrubing observation one time about dwarven women. His premise was that Dwarven women were actually Amazons, which accounted for there not being any male Amazons or recognizable female dwarves, and the offspring were either Amazons or Dwarves depending on the sex, and that occaisionally you would get a female dwarf or a male Amazon and it would be considered a major birth defect like hermaphroditity. And now that I've recounted that, I think I need the goggles, too.

Thomas
2007-01-18, 05:46 AM
But they do nothing!

Matthew
2007-01-18, 05:53 AM
That's because the people in Lord of the Rings don't think that way. Galadriel was a fair maiden, not an object of lust. As such, her qualities of fair-maidenhood were intrinsic and did not depend on the viewer.

The only female character who is described at all seductively is... Shelob :)

Eh? Who said Galadriel was an object of lust? Conceptions of beauty don't have to be about that. Gimli was ready to fight Eomer over insults and insisted that if he were to view Galadriel and not admit she was the fairest of all women, their friendship would be ended. He loved her, but clearly in a way that was differentiated for his love for Legolas or his father and so on.

Rei_Jin
2007-01-18, 06:08 AM
The way I view it...
1. All dwarves have the capacity to grow beards
2. All elves LACK the capacity to grow beards
3. Humans are defined by gender to their ability or lack thereof to grow a beard.

Hence why we always see Elves as girly and Dwarves as macho

BCOVertigo
2007-01-18, 01:36 PM
The way I view it...
1. All dwarves have the capacity to grow beards
2. All elves LACK the capacity to grow beards
3. Humans are defined by gender to their ability or lack thereof to grow a beard.

Hence why we always see Elves as girly and Dwarves as macho

I second the motion.

Green Bean
2007-01-18, 01:45 PM
The way I view it...
1. All dwarves have the capacity to grow beards
2. All elves LACK the capacity to grow beards
3. Humans are defined by gender to their ability or lack thereof to grow a beard.

Hence why we always see Elves as girly and Dwarves as macho

That certainly sounds reasonable to me...

Which is why it'll never work on teh intarwebs :smallbiggrin:

jjpickar
2007-01-18, 02:56 PM
Since I haven't seen one yet and it needs to said. Nope, no, never ever, couldn't countenance it, wouldn't be prudent, wouldn't be wise, etc. ad nauseum
Basically, no dwarf women with beards.

Divides
2007-01-18, 02:59 PM
Don't be mistaken by all the blond girls, a large majority of them dyes their hair. Genes for blond are regressive, which means the children of a blond haired and a black haired are more likely to be black. Except for Northern and middle Europe and Northern America, blond is almost non-existent. And even in those places, it's still more common to have dark hair (except perhaps in Scandinavia).


Ok, Bender, do me a favor (possibly both of us)... stop talking to me like I was born yesterday.

Yes, I know allot of people dye their hair... this is usually (not always, but usually) pretty easy to tell (after awhile you notice the roots, unless they're re-applying it almost every day).

Fact remains that there are still allot of people who I know for a fact are natural blonds... many of which have non-blondish beards.

Not all recessive genes make it all the way to "rare traits."



My blond facial hair is exactly the same colour as the hair closest to my head: it's darker because it doesn't see as much sunshine as the longer hair on top of my head. It doesn't have a chance to bleach. (I'm a darker shade of blond, not white-blond)
The beards of the very rare men with blond long beards, have a chance to bleach as well.
Of course their is indeed a difference between facial hair and the hair on top of my head, but also the hair on the arms and legs of blond people is light.


Besides, I think I said reddish instead of read, it's only for men who are darker blond and probably have some red-haired ancestors. Older men who have beards more often are grey, and thus disappear from the statistics as well.


Ok, I hope this doesn't come off as condisending, as I'm geniunely thrown off... but I'm going to assume you ment "I think I said reddish instead of red" and not "I think I said reddish instead of read" (or was it I who made the typo? I mean, I think I would have caught it with my OCD edit/re-editing of my own posts, but there's still a chance, and right now I'm too lazy to check :-p).

Anyway, it'd have to be a pretty minimal "reddish," because I havn't notice reddishness at all. Either that or I'm semi-colorblind and just don't know it, which would explane why I'd be thinking it's brown...



It makes me wonder why dwarven men and women don't all have red beards, because, judging from the accent, they all have Scottish or Irish ancestors.


Well, if what you're saying proves to be true, I will say that I wish I had had this discussion before starting my most recent campaign started (although I suppose it's not to late to change... there is only one dwarf in the campaign, and it's a male PC character). Dwarf women with red-tinted beards would not only make sense, based on that argument... it sounds kinda cool!


Earth

Oerth?

Right, got it!

(:-p.)



Except when it's lighter, like mine.

Anyway, your personal experience is obviously entirely irrelevant, since it does not represent any sort of statistical analysis, just your unrecorded, obviously unreliable recollections of past observations.

Nobody else here has provided a shred of statistics either, kid (well, atleast on the topic in question)... it's ALL been subjective argument (with the possible exception of people using themselves as examples), so your statement is fundamentally flawed.

Now do us both a favor and cut it out with the borderline trolling...

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 03:01 PM
No. That is merely a myth, much like the one that there are no dwarf women, and dwarves are are simply ordered from Sears.:smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-01-18, 03:54 PM
No. That is merely a myth, much like the one that there are no dwarf women, and dwarves are are simply ordered from Sears.:smallbiggrin:

We don't carry dwarves this time of year.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 04:02 PM
Crud! Now what am I going to use for comedy relief?:smallfurious:

Divides
2007-01-18, 04:13 PM
Crud! Now what am I going to use for comedy relief?:smallfurious:

Halflings. They're almost as good, and WAY cheaper!

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 04:47 PM
Can I return them if they start getting teary eyed and start talking about how there's still some good in this world worth fighting for?:smallwink:

Divides
2007-01-18, 04:49 PM
Can I return them if they start getting teary eyed and start talking about how there's still some good in this world worth fighting for?:smallwink:

Yes, but only for store credit, saddly.

JadedDM
2007-01-18, 05:32 PM
Question: Does it actually say anywhere in any official source that elves cannot grow facial hair?

I know it does not in 2E, I was wondering if they ever changed that in 3E. Because in 2E, only Dragonlance sources ever claimed elves could NOT grow facial hair.

Wraithy
2007-01-18, 05:35 PM
elves all look like women
dwarves all look like men

alternatively:

dwarven balls drop at birth (even for the women)
elven balls don't


it's all testicular

Khantalas
2007-01-18, 05:50 PM
I think PHB says elves lack facial hair.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-18, 05:52 PM
I had no idea female facial hair was such a widely accepted fetish.

Divides
2007-01-18, 05:58 PM
I had no idea female facial hair was such a widely accepted fetish.

Err... you didn't?

Winged One
2007-01-18, 06:40 PM
Goggles: They do nothing.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 100 gp.

Sigged. And I voted yes, mostly 'cause of Discworld.

JadedDM
2007-01-18, 07:30 PM
I think PHB says elves lack facial hair.

You think? Or you know?

Matthew
2007-01-18, 07:32 PM
I will check.

[Edit] Elves have no facial or body hair, according to the 3.0 PHB.

Khantalas
2007-01-18, 07:34 PM
I checked, and PHB says elves have no facial or body hair. In 3.5, too.

So elves don't shave their legs. That would be creepy.

Scorpina
2007-01-18, 07:35 PM
...why would it be creepy?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-18, 07:35 PM
I wonder what would happen if you used a Puberty spell on an elf...

Divides
2007-01-18, 07:36 PM
...why would it be creepy?

I think he ment elven men don't shave their legs... which is good, because otherwise it would be creepy.

Just guessing.

Not that I'd agree, anyway :-p.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 07:36 PM
I find it all a bit creepy.

Wraithy
2007-01-19, 07:24 AM
don't shun the beard, embrace it:durkon:

Hannes
2007-01-19, 07:27 AM
Yes, they have beards. Just to promote my anti-dwarven mentality.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-01-19, 07:46 AM
In the PHB, no dwarven females have beards.
In my game, dwarven females are markedly different to males - smaller, lither, rarer - and they certainly don't have facial hair. They're often mistaken for big halflings.

In other sources, who knows? In german folklore there were no female dwarves at all, for example - they were one of the fey races. The question becomes somewhat redundant without specification of acceptable source material.

Cult_of_the_Raven
2007-01-19, 10:37 PM
if your campaign goals include hilarity, then Dwarven women have beards. they just shave them sometimes.

Thomas
2007-01-20, 12:15 PM
What does hilarity have to do with it?

Murongo
2007-01-20, 02:48 PM
Of course dwarven women have beards.

Wraithy
2007-01-20, 03:02 PM
What does hilarity have to do with it?

*eyes widen in amazement*
you really have to ask?


P.S. :durkon:

Thomas
2007-01-20, 04:50 PM
Well, yeah. I don't see anything innately hilarious about bearded dwarf women. (I don't see anything innately hilarious about bearded women IRL, either. Or about any other aspect of a person's appearance, really.)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-20, 04:51 PM
Now, I don't think bearded woman= hilarity. But come on, man! Midgets are funny.

Thomas
2007-01-20, 04:55 PM
Now you're just trying to get in trouble. :smalltongue:

You're lucky I'm good at reading sarcasm.

Jonnadiah
2007-01-20, 05:00 PM
No, they don't, unless they're in the closet lesbians trying to hide their sexuality from their parents.

My apologies in advance...

YPU
2007-01-20, 05:06 PM
I say no, just very heavy sideburns.

YPU
2007-01-20, 05:09 PM
No, they don't, unless they're in the closet lesbians trying to hide their sexuality from their parents.

My apologies in advance...
Seems a rather odd idea to me, wouldn’t the parents have noticed the gender at birth. Or is dwarven pubic hair so dense at birth gender determination is impossible. Ow, sorry in advance for bringing up pubic hair.

Dhavaer
2007-01-20, 05:35 PM
and seriously...is that not the most boring way to play a pencil-and-paper campaign possible? The whole advantage to tabletop is that no rule is hard and fast, everything is flexible and alive. At least, I think so.

As there's no mention of 'in your campaign' in the OP, the only source we have to draw on is the rulebooks. There's probably plenty of homebrew campaigns with bearded dwarf women, but there's also probably campaigns with fungal dwarves. Campaigns aren't the issue, the issue is whether standard, by the book dwarf women have beards. They don't.


Which illustrations is this? I've got plenty of AD&D books with bearded or whiskered dwarf women.

The only illustrations of dwarf women I can recall off-hand are from the 'female humanoids' sketch in the PHB, the Tempest and Ollam in CompAdv and the Wayfarer Guide in CompArc. None have a hint of facial hair. I've never seen an AD&D book, and assumed the question was directed at the current edition.

DaMullet
2007-01-20, 06:24 PM
In my game world, Dwarves reproduce asexually. There are no genders.

Xartyve
2007-01-20, 07:25 PM
No Dwarven women don't. It shows a pic in the players handbook.

MrNexx
2007-01-20, 08:29 PM
No Dwarven women don't. It shows a pic in the players handbook.

Which of course represents every possible female dwarf. Ever.

You, with the red hair! You're not an elf! Elves can't have red hair! Didn't you see the pic in the Player's handbook?

Woot Spitum
2007-01-20, 09:11 PM
Still, the pics in the player's handbook are probably meant to depict the most typical and common appearance of the base player races, which would imply that while bearded dwarven women may still be a possibility, most dwarven women are, in fact, beardless.

JadedDM
2007-01-20, 10:08 PM
You, with the red hair! You're not an elf! Elves can't have red hair! Didn't you see the pic in the Player's handbook?

Haha. On my world, elves cannot have red hair.

Thomas
2007-01-20, 10:10 PM
The illustrations are... illustrations. Are the weapons and armor pictured in the PHB supposed to be accurate representations of weapons and armor in campaign worlds? (Because, you know, many of them make very little sense.) I really doubt the artists were given exacting specifications about the details of the art beyond "draw a dwarf."

Woot Spitum
2007-01-20, 10:35 PM
If the illustrations aren't at least a little bit representative of the races they're supposed to depict, though, what good are they? I don't expect the sourcebooks to give a perfect idea of the various things they describe, but I do think they have to be at least somewhat relevant.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-20, 11:02 PM
LOL@dwarves being born hairy all over.

Dwarven women have fairly "furry" jawlines. I vaguely remember seeing some Dragon Magazine Dwarf Portraits online somewhere.

Oddly enough, last night's episode of My Name is Earl was the one featuring the bearded lady...

magic8BALL
2007-01-20, 11:24 PM
In the Races of Stone, Chapter One: Dwarves. Description, Grooming, page 6, about 1/2 way through the first paragraph


...the dwarves prize their hair, whether it is on their scalps (both genders) or on their faces (for males).

I also see in that book pictures of eight dwarven women, all beard free.

I think thats pretty conclusive that generic D&D dwarven women are clear chined.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-21, 12:18 AM
In the Races of Stone, Chapter One: Dwarves. Description, Grooming, page 6, about 1/2 way through the first paragraph



I also see in that book pictures of eight dwarven women, all beard free.

I think thats pretty conclusive that generic D&D dwarven women are clear chined.

Only since RoS. Prior to that, it could go either way.:smalltongue: Heck, if/when 4th edition comes(Shoo! Wait another decade or more!), it could go right back to beardsy dwarvettes.

MrNexx
2007-01-21, 01:15 AM
In the Races of Stone, Chapter One: Dwarves. Description, Grooming, page 6, about 1/2 way through the first paragraph


Of course, that could be interpreted to mean that dwarven women do not prize such hair; it doesn't deny them beards, just the enjoyment of them. After all, Races of Faerun is specific:



Both genders [of gold dwarves] wear their hair long, and males (and some females) have long, carefully groomed beards and mustaches.



Both genders [of shield dwarves] wear their hair long, and males (and a very few females) have long, carefully groomed beards and mustaches.



Both genders [of urdunnir] wear their hair long, and males (and some females) have long, carefully groomed beards and mustaches.


And, of course, there's the description from the Monster Manual...



Stocky, broad of body and extremely muscular, the short figure before you may lack in height but not in physical strength or presence. Wrapped in metal armor and armed with a waraxe, the humanoid has light brown skin, ruddy cheeks, and bright eyes, with black hair and a long, carefully groomed beard and mustache.

Note the careful avoidance of gender-specific pronouns in that description.

InaVegt
2007-01-21, 07:10 AM
I apologyse to the catgirls in advance for the post.

I've seen the argument that since dwarves are humanoids which can interbreed with humans and as such females don't have beards crop up a couple of times. To that I have a couple of points.
First: In the animal species called Canis Lupus, or the dog. And even in the subspecies C. L. Familiaris, the domestic dog. There are many variants of hairgrowth, from almost completely bald till long haired. Yet they can perfectly interbreed.
Second: RL Human females can grow beards if they gain enough testosterone, as such who's to say Dwarves of any gender don't produce more testosterone naturally, if they do of course the females grow beards, or at least whiskers. In the same token you can explain the lack of beardedness with elves, they have less testosterone. Not only does this explain facial hair, but other tendencies of Dwarves and Elves can be explained in the same matter, as Testosterone rich men are more what we consider masculine, elves are considered the most feminine of the PHB races, while orcs and Dwarves are generally considered masculine.

Darkshade
2007-01-21, 07:15 AM
lets not forget that the racial descriptions (along with everything else in the corebooks) is on some level a suggestion, a basic but thoroughly built campaign world that you can take as your own, or modify in any and every way you see fit, as such I think the poll question should be,
"do dwarves in your campaign have beards?"

Thomas
2007-01-21, 08:51 AM
If the illustrations aren't at least a little bit representative of the races they're supposed to depict, though, what good are they? I don't expect the sourcebooks to give a perfect idea of the various things they describe, but I do think they have to be at least somewhat relevant.

They are, as usual, there to spice up the book. Seriously. If everyone took the pictures in RuneQuest books to be exact representations... well, for one thing, we'd never have gotten to the cool tree-like elves with bark for skin and leaves for hair that we have now.


lets not forget that the racial descriptions (along with everything else in the corebooks) is on some level a suggestion, a basic but thoroughly built campaign world that you can take as your own, or modify in any and every way you see fit, as such I think the poll question should be,
"do dwarves in your campaign have beards?"

That, too.

And like MrNexx's quotes show, again, Faerûnian dwarf females definitely have beards. ("Some" or "a very few" depending on the subrace. Mind, the "some" and "a very few" is prefixed to "long, carefully groomed beards and mustaches." The rest just don't have long beards and mustaches - they may still have short beards, mustaches, whiskers, sideburns... the gold dwarf female in the old AD&D Faerûn 2nd ed. revised book dwarf group picture had big ol' sideburns, I recall.)

Woot Spitum
2007-01-21, 07:53 PM
I know that computer games based on D&D rules aren't a definative source on what D&D is actually like, but I think the following example might shed some light on the problem. Icewind Dale, the computer game, is based on second edition rules (thaco instead of AC and that sort of thing). When creating a new character you quickly notice that female dwarves (and even female gnomes) have facial hair. However, when the expansion pack was made, the designers updated the entire game to third edition rules. Once you install the expansion pack you quickly notice that female dwarves and gnomes are now beardless.

This would seem to imply that WOtC's official stance on the dwarven women beards or no beards question is: "We can't make up our minds."

Who knows? When fourth edition comes out dwarven women may be illustrated as bearded again, and if fifth edition comes out, they'll be beardless again.:smallwink:

Thomas
2007-01-21, 08:29 PM
Actually, considering AD&D was TSR's, not WotC's... well, you get the idea.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-21, 08:48 PM
Actually, considering AD&D was TSR's, not WotC's... well, you get the idea.

I did not know that. That explains a lot, and not just about the inconsistencies in the illustrations of dwarven women. :haley: (on outsiders and what happens when they die) "I think they keep changing it."

zachol
2007-01-21, 08:54 PM
In campaigns I play in, the answer is either "no" or "they shave obsessively and tell nobody about it."

Regardless, none of them are described as having anything more than oddly bushy sideburns.


Then again, elves can grow beards, so whatevs.

Divides
2007-01-21, 11:16 PM
I did not know that. That explains a lot, and not just about the inconsistencies in the illustrations of dwarven women. :haley: (on outsiders and what happens when they die) "I think they keep changing it."

Actually, I think WotC (and I'm almost positive TSR) keep (kept) changing THAT anyway :-p.

Angela Christine
2007-01-30, 06:48 AM
Why wouldn't they have beards? Some human women can grow beards, not many, but some. All land mammals are covered in hair, including human women. In most children and many women the hair on the face is fine enough to be barely noticeable, but it is there. To make it into a beard you just need it to grow slightly longer and thicker.


Most "mature" human women grow at least some facial hair, though you may not see it much if the fashion is to remove or bleach it. Go spend a day riding the bus on a busy route through less-prosperous neighbourhoods, I guarantee you'll see some bewhiskered women who don't bother trying to hide it anymore.

Many young women grow noticeable facial hair, particularly if they are cursed with thick, dark hair and pale, translucent skin. I started growing a few inch-long chin whiskers when I was 19, oh, the humanity! I was totally bummed, I thought that didn't happen to girls until you were, like, 60 or something. Even now that I'm in my 30's there still isn't enough hair to grow a good goatee, much less a full beard, but it would be quite noticeable if I let them grow. The reason you rarely see women with whiskers is because they are unfashionable, so most of the unlucky ladies use tweezers, waxes, bleaches, depilatories, electrolysis, lasers, etc., to remove or disguise the offending hairs. (Shaving would be the easiest, cheapest and least painful way to remove the hair, but unfortunately facial shaving and "5 o'clock shadow" is also very unfashionable for women). Human women do grow facial hair, though it is thinner and shorter than that of human men.


Dwarven men tend to be much more muscular than human men of the same height, and all seem to have at least a "Robin Williams" level of hairiness. Do all dwarves spend hours in the gym (or at the forge) to get that extra muscle, or is their body chemistry just a little different than ours, so that it is actually easier for them to become muscular? I bet that dwarves, in general, have more testosterone (or something very like testosterone) than humans. In effect, it is like every dwarf is on steroids. Since the females are just as girthy as the males, it appears that they also have high levels of the unknown steroid-like chemical. What do you get if you give a female human athlete low doses of steroids? More muscles and more facial hair. The same small change in biology and biochemistry that makes dwarven females much stockier than human females could also make them hairier.

I'd use human female facial hair as a guide. Even particularly hairy grannies aren't growing ZZTop-like beards, I don't think I've ever seen a facial hair longer than about 2 inches on a woman. If similar limitations affect dwarven women, it is quite likely that they would generally grow short beards as well.

I'd guess that the norm would be a beard that is finer and silkier than a males, and that generally only grows a couple inches long. Some dwarven women might grow full-on beards, especially as they get older, but this is much less common, and those women probably trim their beards to blend in with the norm. Some women, especially those whose hair is thinner and finer all over their heads and bodies, might not grow beards at all. Others might grow very fine, barely noticeable beards. In some dwarven cultures women with very thin, fine beards might use cosmetics to make their beards appear thicker and fuller (similar to the way mascara and eyeliner are used to make eyelashes appear fuller and longer).

Thomas
2007-01-30, 07:08 AM
Well said, Angela.

MrNexx
2007-01-30, 10:11 AM
PREEEE-CISELY!

Ethnocentric, smooth-skinned haters, the lot of you :durkon:

Chris_Chandler
2007-01-30, 11:29 AM
In FR and DL they made a point to establish the beardedness of dwarves, but the current iteration of the rules suggests a smooth faced female for core dwarves - meaning Greyhawk dwarven ladies are smooth chinned.

My own game world keeps dwarven ladies beardless, but that is neither a nod to any anti-hirsute tendencies, nor a stab at any pro-beard movement. They just don't.

Marius
2007-01-30, 11:51 AM
They do in Middle Earth not in D&D.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-30, 05:23 PM
They do in Middle Earth not in D&D.

Actually, the part in Lord of the Rings movie is where it is alluded to that dwarven women have beards is not in the original book. Tolkien, in the numerous appendices at the end of The Return of the King, mentions several things about dwarven women. Among them are: That more male dwarves are born than female dwarves, that it is not uncommon for female dwarves to choose to remain childless and live out their days in solitude away from the society of other dwarves, and that as a result, the entire dwarven race in Middle Earth is dying out. He does not, however, mention whether or not female dwarves have beards. Thus we must look to other (frequently contradictory) sources for our answer.

Jayabalard
2007-01-30, 06:00 PM
Second: RL Human females can grow beards if they gain enough testosteroneYup, simple scientific explanation. I agree with this one and Angela Christine (dead catgirls notwithstanding)

Arceliar
2007-01-30, 06:27 PM
Several books in the forgotten realms setting specifically reference dwarven women as having beards. It's really going to be dependent on setting though.

At the very least, SOME dwarven women have beards, as some HUMAN women have beards and are frankly quite creepy...

MrNexx
2007-01-30, 06:56 PM
Actually, Races of Stone in talking about dwarven insults flat-out states that dwarven women are never referred to as beardless, despite not having chin-hairs.

Of course, this is also the book that gave us a goddess for gnomes, so I consider it to be bird cage lining.

Thomas
2007-01-30, 08:48 PM
At the very least, SOME dwarven women have beards, as some HUMAN women have beards and are frankly quite creepy...

... creepy?

Narrow-minded and appearance-obsessed, any?

Wehrkind
2007-01-30, 08:56 PM
Uhm, Thomas, people having the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex does qualify as "creepy". Not there is anything morally wrong with the person that has one of course, but like many creepy things it has less to do with what it is, and everything to do with what we are wired to expect. This is pretty much the same thing that makes furries creepy. Yes, it can be gotten used to, and I am sure they are nice people too, in the same proportion to other people. Still, creepy.