Bloodlines for Fun and Profit

[prufock]

Hey all! My new obsession with 3.5 D&D is the Bloodline variant rule. As written, it is just so brokenly awesome when abused with multiple base and prestige class dips. It's all thanks to this little line in the description:


If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.
I've done a web search, but there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive list of which class features can be abused with bloodlines. I think we should start one.

The SRD says:

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels
So we're looking for a list of useful class features that use class level as part of the calculation, and can be abused via bloodlines for maximum gain.

Two rules, I hope we can all agree upon:
1. "Level-based calculation" means the outcome must be a number. A bonus, a HD cap, etc are all a number. It should not include things like fighter bonus feats, despite the number of bonus feats being a level-based calculation.
2. Solemnly swear the oath that you will not discuss whether bloodlines count as levels vs ECL, or a pseudo-level, or what have you. This is not the place.

Hopefully this will be a somewhat useful resource. If you'd like me to add color-coding for usefulness, abusiveness, debatable interpretations, or whatever, please ask. This list could be used to good effect alongside the Lists of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1068066) to maximize bloodline usefulness.

I'll get the ball started.

Ardent (CP)
Manifester Level
Highest level power Uniquely, the ardent's max power level she can select when she gains a new power is limited only by her manifester level and number of power points available. Since bloodlines increase ML, she will be able to get higher-level powers sooner, especially with PrC dips that advance ML.
Mantles such as Fate that grant a level-based bonus

Barbarian
Damage Reduction
Rage per day
Trap Sense bonus
Improved Uncanny Dodge rogue level required to flank you. Levels stack, so Barb 7/Rog 8 (for example) adds the bloodline level twice.

Bard
Caster Level
Bardic Knowledge
Bardic Music per day
Fascinate number of targets (and therefore Mass Suggestion as well)
Inspire Courage bonus
Suggestion save DC (and therefore Mass Suggestion as well)
Song of Freedom effective level
Inspire Heroics number of targets

Binder (ToM)
Soul Binding effective binder level used for max level vestige, number of vestiges, and binding check, as well as many of the durations, save DCs, damage dice, etc for vestige powers

Cleric
Caster Level
Turn Undead max HD affected and damage
Effective cleric level for domain powers

Crusader (ToB)
Initiator Level for maximum maneuver level known
Steely Resolve for size of delayed damage pool
Smite damage


Divine Mind (CP)
Manifester Level
Psychic Aura benefits (usually bonus); varies
Mantles benefits (usually bonus); varies

Druid
Caster Level
Animal Companion HD, natural armor, str/dex, bonus tricks, and alternate animal companion availability; FAQ says no
Wild Empathy bonus
Wild Shape max HD of animal, duration

Favored Soul (CD)
Caster Level

Fighter
Effective fighter level for determining when you can take feats with minimum fighter level requirement, like the Weapon Specialization line

Hexblade (CW)
Caster Level
Hexblade's Curse times per day
Familiar abilities

Lurk (CP)
Manifester Level
Lurk Augments per day

Monk
AC Bonus
Fast Movement debateable
Slow Fall debateable
Wholeness of Body number of HP the monk can heal per day
Abundant Step caster level
Diamond Soul spell resistance
Quivering Palm duration and fortitude DC
Empty Body rounds per day

Ninja (CAdv)
AC Bonus by level
Ki Powers per day
Sudden Strike damage
Ghost Mind DC of caster level check

Paladin
Caster Level
Aura of Good
Smite Evil damage and per day
Lay on Hands hit points
Turn Undead max HD affected and damage
Remove Disease per week
Special Mount duration, HD, natural armor, str, intelligence

Psion (XPH)
Manifester Level
Psicrystal natural armor and intelligence adjustment

Psychic Warrior (XPH)
Manifester Level

Ranger
Caster level
Favored Enemy number and bonus
Wild Empathy bonus
Animal Companion HD, natural armor, str/dex, bonus tricks, and alternate animal companion availability; FAQ says no
Wild Shape (variant) max HD of animal, duration

Rogue
Sneak Attack damage
Effective level versus Improved Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense bonus
Improved Uncanny Dodge rogue level required to flank you. Levels stack, so Barb 7/Rog 8 (for example) adds the bloodline level twice.

Scout (CAdv)
Skirmish damage and AC; adding Swift Hunter or Swift Ambusher (or both) to this should stack

Shadowcaster (ToM)
Mysteries save DCs and caster level

Shugenja (CD)
Caster Level

Sorcerer
Caster Level
Familiar natural armor adjustment, intelligence

Soulbow (CP)
Mind Arrow Enhancement bonus value

Soulknife (XPH)
Mind Blade enhancement bonus
Psychic Strike damage, debateable
Mind Blade Enhancement debateable

Spellthief (CAdv)
Caster Level
Sneak Attack debatable; unlike rogue sneak attack, it doesn't say "per X levels," it gives a list of levels - however it amounts to every 4 levels. It's not clear whether this continues beyond level 20. Stacks with other sneak attack sources in any case.
Steal Spell maximum total levels possessed and duration it is suppressed in the target (for spontaneous casters), but not maximum spell level you can steal; Master Spellthief feat stacks
Steal Spell Effect maximum caster level of effect you can steal, duration it is suppressed in target
Steal Spell-Like Ability maximum level you can steal
Absorb Spell level check
Steal Spell Resistance 5 + class level

Spirit Shaman (CD)
Caster Level
Wild Empathy
Chastise Spirits damage
Exorcism class level check
Weaken Spirits duration (based on Chastise Spirits)


Swashbuckler (CW)
Dodge bonus

Swordsage (ToB)
Initiator Level for maximum maneuver level known
Sense Magic level check

Truenamer (ToM)
Utterances save DCs and caster level

Warblade (ToB)
Initiator Level for maximum maneuver level known
Weapon Aptitude level for qualifying for fighter bonus feats
Improved Uncanny Dodge rogue level required to flank you. Levels stack, so Barb 7/Warblade 6 (for example) adds the bloodline level twice.

Warlock (CArc)
Caster Level
Damage Reduction debateable

Warmage (CArc)
Caster Level
Warmage Edge (w/ Extra Edge feat) adds +1/4 levels


Wilder (XPH)
Manifester Level
Wild Surge manifester level boost, debateable?
Psychic Enervation number of power points lost (a rare class ability that is actually worse with bloodlines)
Surging Euphoria morale bonus, debateable
Volatile Mind debateable

Wizard
Caster Level
Familiar natural armor adjustment, intelligence

Wu Jen (CArc)
Caster Level (including Elemental Mastery)

Prestige Classes

Abjurant Champion (CM)
Abjurant Armor AC boost
Swift Abjuration for max level spell (1/2 class level)

Hellfire Warlock (FCII)
Hellfire Blast damage

Legacy Champion (WoL)
Class Features progresses any class' special abilities that you choose, therefore add bloodline to LC levels as well; note there are two dead levels
Bond of Lore for knowledge (history) checks

Uncanny Trickster (WoL)
Class Features progresses any class' special abilities that you choose, therefore add bloodline to UT levels as well; note there is one dead level

War Weaver (HoB)
Eldritch Tapestry for max spell level

Special
Feats that allow class levels to stack for certain abilities let you add bloodlines to each class. This includes Daring Outlaw, Devoted Performer, Master Spellthief, Song of the White Raven, Swift Ambusher, and Swift Hunter.

[JaronK]

The FAQ says that Druid Animal Companions aren't advanced by Bloodlines. This sucks, because it invalidates the ubermount build. But there it is. The logic doesn't make much sense to me.

JaronK

[Corinath]

I'm not entirely sure I get what's happening here.

So, for example, you're saying that a hypothetical Rogue 2/ Bloodline 1 would grant 2d6 Sneak Attack the same as Rogue 3 would?

[Karnith]

So, do we think that a Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast gets extra damage from Bloodline levels? The relevant RAW:

Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast. A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level. If your blast hits multiple targets (for example, the eldritch chain or eldritch cone blast shape invocations), each target takes the extra damage. The damage is not fire damage. Hellfire burns hotter than any normal fire, as described in the sidebar on page 119.
(Emphasis mine)

It's not the standard "At Xth level, and every Yth level thereafter" wording that definitely wouldn't work, but does it qualify as a calculation of a level-based ability?

[Corinath]

Looking into this more, it doesn't seem like a good, or even great, optimization trade off.

You don't stack Sneak Attack levels, as they aren't a class level calculation. The same would go with anything remotely similar. The book even references where you calculate cast spells as being Caster Class + Bloodline, but that the bloodline level doesn't grant you new spells as if you gained a level in that caster class.

I'd want to see an example of where this could lead to serious OP, because right now it's trading up to a few levels away for a skill bonus and a feat or two, and I feel like dipping in other classes accomplishes all of that and then some.

[JaronK]

Try initiator level, that's where it goes insane.

A Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1 with any Major Bloodline, who counts as a level 7 character but needs the exp of a level 9, has an initiator level of 12 as a Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage, giving them higher than normal maneuvers.

A Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Hexblade 1/Duskblade 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/OA Samurai 1/CW Samurai 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1 with any Major Bloodline, who counts as a level 12 character but needs the exp of a level 15 character, has an initiator level of 26 as a Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage, giving then 9th level maneuvers in all of them if you like (you may need Master of 9 to get enough sheer volume of maneuvers to qualify, or you can always use rings of the diamond mind and similar).

JaronK

[Vortenger]

This is a great idea! Thanks for putting in the work! Also, JaronK, good description of benefits.

Karnith, it says per class level, and bloodlines grant effective class level benefits, so...yeah, it works.

[shaikujin]

Great resource idea!

Another great class that works well with Bloodlines is Ardent.

Powers known for the Ardents are based on their ML.



JaronK, I think the IL for your first example should be 16?

[JaronK]

JaronK, I think the IL for your first example should be 16?

At that level you've only had two bloodline levels, so each dip class is worth +1.5 IL and the Initiator classes are worth +3 (but only for the class in question... Warblade only gives +1.5 to Swordsage initiator levels).

It's not until your third bloodline level that everything's worth +2 (and the class itself is worth +4).

JaronK

[shaikujin]

Ahh, I understand now, it's because he hasn't taken the 3rd bloodline level yet.


Regarding that, it says the bloodlines levels 1, 2, 3 can be taken "anytime" before reaching level 3, 6, 12 respectively.

Is it possible to take all 3 bloodline levels before level 3?

[Zombulian]

Try initiator level, that's where it goes insane.

A Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1 with any Major Bloodline, who counts as a level 7 character but needs the exp of a level 9, has an initiator level of 12 as a Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage, giving them higher than normal maneuvers.

A Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Hexblade 1/Duskblade 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/OA Samurai 1/CW Samurai 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1 with any Major Bloodline, who counts as a level 12 character but needs the exp of a level 15 character, has an initiator level of 26 as a Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage, giving then 9th level maneuvers in all of them if you like (you may need Master of 9 to get enough sheer volume of maneuvers to qualify, or you can always use rings of the diamond mind and similar).

JaronK

Bloodlines don't change ECL though so that level 7 character would still only need the regular amount to get to 8. Unless you mean the total exp that you spent on bloodlines puts you at the exp of a level 9 character.

[JaronK]

Bloodlines don't change ECL though so that level 7 character would still only need the regular amount to get to 8. Unless you mean the total exp that you spent on bloodlines puts you at the exp of a level 9 character.

Yes, that's why I said "who counts as a level 7 character but needs the exp of a level 9"

And yes, you could take all three bloodline levels early. You'd want to take the third one at level 8 so that you could start your initiator class levels in the next level and get 9th level maneuvers then.

JaronK

[shaikujin]

So taking all the 3 bloodline levels earlier would allow the sample character

Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1

To have an IL of 14 (not 16 as I counted earlier, sorry math failure) for Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage, right?

[JaronK]

So taking all the 3 bloodline levels earlier would allow the sample character

Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1

To have an IL of 14 (not 16 as I counted earlier, sorry math failure) for Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage, right?

16, actually. You'd only have 12 on your first Warblade level, so you could only take 6th level maneuvers as a Warblade (IIRC). As a Crusader, you could take 7th level because your IL would be 14 at that level. As a Swordsage, it would be 16. Remember, you get 4 levels for the actual initiator class level. But at that level, your initiator level would be 16 in all three. Take Master of Nine as your next level and you can get 9th level maneuvers all over the place.

JaronK

[prufock]

Looking into this more, it doesn't seem like a good, or even great, optimization trade off.

You don't stack Sneak Attack levels, as they aren't a class level calculation. The same would go with anything remotely similar. The book even references where you calculate cast spells as being Caster Class + Bloodline, but that the bloodline level doesn't grant you new spells as if you gained a level in that caster class.

I'd want to see an example of where this could lead to serious OP, because right now it's trading up to a few levels away for a skill bonus and a feat or two, and I feel like dipping in other classes accomplishes all of that and then some.


This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter.
That sounds like a class level calculation if I ever heard one.

I think you're missing the big picture. Remember this section:

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

RAW, this means that a rogue 5/assassin 1/bloodline 2 would get two extra sneak attack dice - one for rogue and one for assassin - because the bloodline level gets added to both classes. If you add in a level of sneak attack fighter, it also gets an additional d6, because the bloodline level stacks with that class as well.

The more classes you have that do the same thing, the more borked this gets.


The FAQ says that Druid Animal Companions aren't advanced by Bloodlines. This sucks, because it invalidates the ubermount build. But there it is. The logic doesn't make much sense to me.
Odd, but thanks for the info. I guess I'll add "debatable" to this, because FAQ word isn't RAW (some people don't think it's worth the paper it's written on).

And yes, IL is where bloodlines go nuts. This thread was inspired by my response to whether a character could have 8th level vestiges and 9th level maneuvers in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16524834&postcount=18). Bloodlines can get you both by level 13, probably earlier if I had bothered with initiator PrCs.


So, do we think that a Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast gets extra damage from Bloodline levels?
Absolutely. Added.


This is a great idea! Thanks for putting in the work!


Great resource idea!

Another great class that works well with Bloodlines is Ardent.

Powers known for the Ardents are based on their ML.

Glad to help! I'll check on Ardent. I started mostly with SRD classes first, and am slowly expanding the list.

Just as an FYI, if this gets really cluttered I might start a separate thread for PrCs. I'm not planning to list every PrC that advances something from the base classes, that's what the Lists of Stuff thread is for. However, PrCs that offer unique level-based abilities like the Hellfire Warlock should be included.

[Nightraiderx]

Would feats that depend on character level get impacted by bloodline levels?

I'm starting to think about feats such as:
Swift Ambusher
Swift Hunter
Daring Outlaw

and such that rely on levels of something to grant additional benefits.


Prestiege Classes that get rediculous turn over:
Abjurrant Champion + Legacy Champion might get some extra AC and a higher level in which an abjuration is swift action? 8th or 9th lvl abjurrations as a swift action.

Warweaver+Legacy Champion to get all the way up to 9th level spell sharing?

[prufock]

Would feats that depend on character level get impacted by bloodline levels?

I'm starting to think about feats such as:
Swift Ambusher
Swift Hunter
Daring Outlaw

Yes, I'd think so. In these cases, levels from the 2 classes stack, so you'd add bloodline level to both classes to determine sneak attack etc.


Prestiege Classes that get rediculous turn over:
Abjurrant Champion + Legacy Champion might get some extra AC and a higher level in which an abjuration is swift action? 8th or 9th lvl abjurrations as a swift action.

Warweaver+Legacy Champion to get all the way up to 9th level spell sharing?
Abjurant Champ for AC works, and you get up to 4th level abjurations as swift actions (remember it's half your class levels) with bloodline 3.

War Weaver's Eldritch Tapestry spell level cap is based on class level.

Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster are two well-known ways to abuse bloodlines. They both (for the cost of one dead level) progress any class' features that you choose, so bloodline levels get added to those. You may lose a level, but with bloodline 2 or 3 that's still a net gain. Legacy Champion also adds bloodline level for Knowledge (History) checks, but meh.

[Nightraiderx]

Song of the White Raven is nice for IL and IC stacking you can even have full bab if you take the Paladin of Mystra (which allows IC as a first level ability.)

Master SpellTheif Feat

Dip in both Warblade and Crusader for fast progression.

[prufock]

Trying to work through the base classes from the Complete X line today.

[prufock]

Base classes from the Completes are done.