Carmendine Monk/Ninja/Swordsage paradox? How would you rule?

[Corinath]

My google-fu has been failing me for the last hour, so I figured I'd crowdsource this with you all. :) I feel like I've run into a paradox with this where I both agree and disagree with both interpretations.

Here's the question: If Carmendine Monk applies replaces Wis. to AC with Int. to AC for a Monk, would the same feat replace the Swordsage's Wis. to AC with Int. to AC?

RAW Definitions in spoilers:Carmendine Monk:Benefit
You can use your Intelligence bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for determining your monk AC bonus and for determining the save DC against your stunning fist and quivering palm attacks.

Monk AC Bonus:(Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Swordsage AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.

Ninja AC Bonus: A ninja is highly trained at dodging blows, and she has a sixth sense that lets her avoid even unanticipated attacks. When unarmored and unencumbered, a ninja adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her Armor Class. This ability does not stack with the monk’s AC bonus ability (a ninja with levels of monk does not add the bonus twice). In addition, a ninja gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five ninja levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when a ninja is flat-footed. The character loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.


The part of this I go around in circles on is this: It seems silly to me that you'd require someone to wear encumbering armor to gain an untyped AC bonus, and that Swordsage's AC bonus would not apply when wearing no armor as well. It's not RAW, but ToB isn't exactly known for having great RAW either (I'm looking at you, "Begins play with"). So, if you're willing to get past that part, the question is weather or not they're they same bonus.

If they're the same bonus, then Carmendine Monk would affect the Swordsage's bonus. On top of that, Ninja has the exact same bonus in it's class description, and states they do not stack. So there's precedence for this being the case.

If they're not the same bonus as Swordsage, then you could argue they stack (which both seems absurd and violates Ninja/Monk RAW). On top of that, though I don't have a source, reportedly (in random internet forum) customer service said they were the same bonus, and that's why they don't stack. (though they may not be that reliable either in terms of establishing game balance?)

How would you rule on this? RAI or house-rule?

[The Cat Goddess]

My group has done many house rules like this. Basically, you would replace situations where the Swordsage gets +Wis with +Int.

Just make it a house-rule or a new in-house feat.

The same could be done with the Serenity feat, using +Cha instead of +Wis.

Also, according to the FAQ from WoC, Swordsage & Monk AC bonus does not stack.

There are also other feats that allow for synergy between two classes... like Devoted Performer, which allows multi-classing between Bard & Paladin. or Aesthetic Rogue, which allow multi-classing between Monk & Rogue. It wouldn't be a stretch for these feats to be adapted to classes from the ToB.

[Corinath]

Also, according to the FAQ from WoC, Swordsage & Monk AC bonus does not stack.

Which RAI supports the notion that they're the same type, and thus could both be affected by the feat.

I think that's what I'm leaning towards too. Just house ruling that Carmendine Monk allows someone to rely on Int. for all bonuses of the same "untyped" type, but that those bonuses never stack with one another.

[Red Fel]

On the one hand, I would probable agree that a houserule that Carmendine Monk applies to Swordsage Wis-to-AC is okay. I would definitely agree that under no circumstances will Swordsage AC Bonus stack with Monk AC Bonus.

Where I disagree is the added stuff. Carmendine Monk changes not only the Monk's Wis-to-AC, but also Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm. It also grants a 24-hour buff.

Apart from the Wis-to-AC, Swordsage does not share those features. Additionally, Swordsage still gets Wis-to-damage from Discipline Focus (insightful strikes). Carmendine Monk does not grant Swordsage its additional bonuses, because Swordsage does not get Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm; nor does it change his Insightful Strikes from Wis to Int.

In short, you're basically making Swordsage more MAD by introducing this element, and missing out on the various bonuses it grants a Monk. I would therefore argue that it's just not as good for a Swordsage.

Now, contrast Carmendine Monk with Kung Fu Genius, which simply says that you replace your Wis bonus for Monk class features with Int. I could better tolerate an argument that Kung Fu Genius allows not only Int-to-AC on a Swordsage, but also Int-to-Damage from Insightful Strikes.

[Corinath]

I'm not familiar with the term MAD. :-/

Let's take this further then.

RAW Kung-Fu Genius vs Cardemine Monk in Spoiler tags

Kung-Fu Genius:Some styles of martial arts require the student to memorize advanced medical text's and anatomical charts. These styles favor the intellectual over the introspective.

You use your Intelligence modifier rather than Wisdom modifier for all monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom.

Carmendine Monk: You can use your Intelligence bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for determining your monk AC bonus and for determining the save DC against your stunning fist and quivering palm attacks. You can study your thesis notes for 1 hour to treat your monk level as two higher for determining one of the following monk abilities: unarmed damage, AC bonus, or unarmored speed bonus. This benefit lasts for 24 hours, at which point you can study your notes again to gain the same or a different effect. You can't study your notes more than once in any 24-hour period.

Not sure how I missed this feat. It seems like it's a much more general blanket "Wis. mod to Int. mod" feat. And the description justifies the class-cross to me, as memorizing medical texts and anatomical charts would prove useful to anyone in any combat situation.

[Lanaya]

MAD means Many/Multiple Ability Dependency. In other words, a class which requires quite a few high ability scores, as opposed to SAD (Single Ability Dependency). The classic examples would be a monk for MAD and a druid for SAD. Monks need strength to hit hard, wisdom to power their abilities, dexterity in addition to wisdom to get their AC to a reasonable level as well as to power many of their important skills, constitution because they're a melee class with average AC and a weak hit die and often intelligence to get more skill points. The only ability they don't have any real dependency on is charisma. On the other hand, druids need wisdom to cast spells and constitution for more HP. Intelligence is largely irrelevant since they can replace most skills with spells, charisma does nothing for them, and strength and dexterity are both overriden by your wild shape form. In fact, if you aren't going to be going into melee with wild shapes and would prefer to stand back, sling spells and let your animal companion do the fighting, you don't even need consitution.

[Red Fel]

I'm not familiar with the term MAD. :-/

Let's take this further then.

RAW Kung-Fu Genius vs Cardemine Monk in Spoiler tags

Kung-Fu Genius:Some styles of martial arts require the student to memorize advanced medical text's and anatomical charts. These styles favor the intellectual over the introspective.

You use your Intelligence modifier rather than Wisdom modifier for all monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom.

Carmendine Monk: You can use your Intelligence bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for determining your monk AC bonus and for determining the save DC against your stunning fist and quivering palm attacks. You can study your thesis notes for 1 hour to treat your monk level as two higher for determining one of the following monk abilities: unarmed damage, AC bonus, or unarmored speed bonus. This benefit lasts for 24 hours, at which point you can study your notes again to gain the same or a different effect. You can't study your notes more than once in any 24-hour period.

Not sure how I missed this feat. It seems like it's a much more general blanket "Wis. mod to Int. mod" feat. And the description justifies the class-cross to me, as memorizing medical texts and anatomical charts would prove useful to anyone in any combat situation.

MAD is short for Multiple Ability Dependent - a class that is MAD requires multiple ability scores. For instance, a Paladin needs Str and Con for melee, Wis for casting, Cha for Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, Smite, etc. It is MAD.

MAD is often contrasted with SAD (Single Ability Dependent) classes. Generally speaking, being SAD is considered superior to being MAD, as it allows a player to more easily focus.

And yes. Kung Fu Genius is a pretty nice feat. The catch is that it must be taken at or before the first Monk level, although that's easily re-fluffed to first Swordsage level. Carmendine Monk, by contrast, can be taken anytime, but requires membership in a religious order (which can of course be re-fluffed).

EDIT: Appropriately enough, Swordsage'd.

[Adverb]

I'm currently in a campaign where the house rule for this is that it changes AC, Insightful Strike, and save DCs for Desert Wind/Shadow Hand maneuvers.

[RedWarlock]

Champions of Valor was printed well before ToB (about 8 months before), in addition to the fact that it's a FR book. The connection of the two is tenuous, at best. (Expecting a book to account for classes published 8 months afterwards is pretty silly.) Swordsage is a thematic analogue; expanding monk-based splat material to apply is not a big stretch.

I don't see a problem with using it to re-type the various Wis-derived bonuses over to Int with that feat.

I would also say they're the same bonus (and that SS gets the bonus to AC even while unarmored. Usually it's a 'X or lighter' clause, they just forgot the 'or lighter' there.)

Are you the DM here, or a player?

[Corinath]

That's pretty much what I decided to go with. That it covers changing the Key Ability Mod, and that it doesn't stack.

I'm a player. But I want to DM eventually, which is something I briefly did in our last campaign, which was Star Wars D20. And I enjoyed it. So I like knowing how things break and work and such.

My DM probably wouldn't care either way. He home-brews a lot, and wouldn't have a problem throwing a home-made god into the mix to account for my +X AC bonus if I got too reckless with it.