PDA

View Full Version : Homebrew Class List



Falcon X
2013-12-04, 04:10 PM
Hi, I'm putting together a campaign for new players, and I'm trying to customize an easy, yet fun class list to play from. Ideally they all hit Tier 3 and give enough each level that taking prestige classes and OPing is largely unnessessary.

Here is my class list so far:

- Warmage
- Dread Necromancer
- Beguiler
- Duskblade
- Factotum (Homebrewed a bardic feat as an option)
- Dragon Shaman

- Druid
w/Druidic Avenger and Shapeshifting ACFs. Given the Mystic Ranger spell progression and list (0-5 level spells), cast spontaneously. (Functionally a barbarian, but with druidic flavor and versatility)

- Cleric
I want it to seem similar to Warmage/Dread Necro/Beguiler.
I'm thinking that I'll take the Cleric stats, the Healer's Abilities, and spontaneously cast from the Healer + Sanctified Spells list.

I'm still considering things for the Non-magical Fighter positions. I'm considering these
- Crusader
- Warblade
- Ranger merged with the Pathfinder Fighter
- Swordsage, but with ability list replaced with the Scout or Rogue abilities.
- Automatic Rogue/Swashbucker hybrid

My questions are:
1. Do my Cleric and Druid mods seem balanced with the rest of the given list?
2. Suggestions on the Non-magical fighter list? I have reservations about Crusader and Warblade, because meatshields seem annoying.
I'm thinking the Ranger/PF Fighter homebrew would work best. At level 1 he'd be a big stupid mercenary, but as he progresses, he would get more tactical, learning terrains, hiding, leadership, and martial skill. Though Warblade might already be this...
I'm also partial to the Swordsage/Scout or Rogue hybrid. Though I might scale him down to 3 or 4 martial disciplines (removing the fire one and the martial one).

Your thoughts?

Grod_The_Giant
2013-12-04, 04:24 PM
1. Do my Cleric and Druid mods seem balanced with the rest of the given list?
The cleric loses hardcore, while the Druid is almost unrecognizable. I'd give the former spontaneous, 9-level casting from his domains. The latter should be kicked up to bard casting, and I'd drop the Druidic Avenger part-- make rage a Tiger Claw stance(s) and you can get a Warblade-as-barbarian just fine.


2. Suggestions on the Non-magical fighter list? I have reservations about Crusader and Warblade, because meatshields seem annoying.
The Crusader is a paladin, but both he and Warblade are a lot of fun to play. Not meatshields in any sense of the word.


I'm thinking the Ranger/PF Fighter homebrew would work best. At level 1 he'd be a big stupid mercenary, but as he progresses, he would get more tactical, learning terrains, hiding, leadership, and martial skill. Though Warblade might already be this...
I'd go Ranger//Scout. (If you're interested, I did this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14192508#post14192508)).


I'm also partial to the Swordsage/Scout or Rogue hybrid. Though I might scale him down to 3 or 4 martial disciplines (removing the fire one and the martial one).
Swordsage is a pretty good monk as-is. If you want to do a hybrid, I'd take the Rogue and give him a Warblade's maneuver progression, with the Swordsage's recovery mechanism, and access to Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and... hmm. Maybe Tiger Claw or Setting Sun? Drop his Sneak Attack to 1d6/3 levels if you do, though. (Although I suppose you could just give the Swordsage Trapfinding, Open Lock, Search and Disable Device and call it a day)

ddude987
2013-12-04, 04:27 PM
Have you ran a campaign, or played in a campaign, with this group before? If not I would run the classes as standard. While it is true that tier 1 classes have the ability to be "broken" and/or overshadow other classes, this does not necessarily make it true for every group.

If you still want to run a custom class list then here are my thoughts on that. Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade make excellent fixes for mundane classes, though some people consider warblade more tier 4. I see you think they are just meat shields, but they have decent damage output, and crusader especially can do things out of combat with his skill list. I don't see why you are making swordsage replace its class abilities with scout or rogue, the swordsage fills a completely different roll than a rogue or scout. The druid changes make druid tier 3, though lower on the tier and without much versitility. The mystic ranger list also doesn't feel druidy enough from a flavor standpoint.

ngilop
2013-12-04, 04:33 PM
I am assuming that you are trying for a tier 3 balancing point?


DRUID: id increase it to have bard like spell progression

CLERIC: much the same.. take the Healer's spells list and add the cleric domain spells as well.. again going up to 6th level spells. also why give evil cleric sanctified spels?

WARMAGE: Allow edge to apply per die or give some type of increase at regular intervals

Im confused by what you mean with the swordsage.. unless you are doing what I did and gestalt a swordsage rogue.. but then you did the same with rogue/swashbucker seems counter productive to have 2 identicel class concepts

Non Magical Fighter: warblade is good, and just becuase something can wear armor and has full BaB doesn't mean that are they are are meatsheilds.


Unless that is all you think those classes are good for. then you need to take a new look with fresh eyes at those classes



So right now the Ranger is insanely good. and it makes the need for any non magicl fighter pointless. SO if you are gestaling Ranger with PF fighter.. you have zero need for a warblade or a crusader.

Falcon X
2013-12-05, 02:26 AM
The cleric loses hardcore, while the Druid is almost unrecognizable. I'd give the former spontaneous, 9-level casting from his domains. The latter should be kicked up to bard casting, and I'd drop the Druidic Avenger part-- make rage a Tiger Claw stance(s) and you can get a Warblade-as-barbarian just fine.

Both of these were partially my attempt to bring Tier 1 classes down to Tier 3. Besides that, great recommendations, let me fiddle with them. Sub-questions:
1. I kind've like the template nature of using both Druidic Avenger and Shapeshifting. But I might just leave this what it originally was, an ACF.
2. The cleric does lose, yes. But does it go any lower than Warmage, Dread Necro, etc? Please explain 9-level casting from it's domains.


The Crusader is a paladin, but both he and Warblade are a lot of fun to play. Not meatshields in any sense of the word.
Thanks, that actually helps. I had actually originally built the list with Crusader on it replacing Paladins, but was wary because OP boards meatshield it to death.
But of the ones on the list, it and Warblade are ones that I have very little practical experience with.


I'd go Ranger//Scout. (If you're interested, I did this one).
Me likes. Looks like a solid Tier 3 Ranger. Have you played with it yet?


Swordsage is a pretty good monk as-is. If you want to do a hybrid, I'd take the Rogue and give him a Warblade's maneuver progression, with the Swordsage's recovery mechanism, and access to Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and... hmm. Maybe Tiger Claw or Setting Sun? Drop his Sneak Attack to 1d6/3 levels if you do, though. (Although I suppose you could just give the Swordsage Trapfinding, Open Lock, Search and Disable Device and call it a day)
Let me chew on these thoughts a while. I honestly love Swordsage as-is. But I care more about getting Rogue flavor into the game than monk.

I also was thinking Swordsage/Scout because I have a character using one. However, it was VERY custom built to her flavor. She is playing a Grippli (frog), who is built around Spring Attack. The Swordsage/Scout combo was brilliant for the character, always keeping her moving, thinking in the X,Y, and Z axis, and juggling the enemy.

Falcon X
2013-12-05, 02:47 AM
Have you ran a campaign, or played in a campaign, with this group before? If not I would run the classes as standard. While it is true that tier 1 classes have the ability to be "broken" and/or overshadow other classes, this does not necessarily make it true for every group.

Actually, I'm currently in a game that utilizes Dread Necro, Beguiler, my Druid Homebrew, and my Scout/Swordsage and they work brilliantly together. Still, I'm early game with them and haven't seen how it goes at higher levels.

Lot of truth to just using standard base classes.
I think my concern is less OPing. I really just want base classes that I KNOW will be fun from start to finish with or without heavy mods.
It's probably my personal bias. I've found myself having more fun living in Tier 3. Lower tiers aren't versatile enough and Vancian casting is harsh for newbies (the ones I work with), and frankly not my taste.

But I think you're right in some areas. I don't need to fight to get things like the Druid and Cleric down to Tier 3. But I still might look at a spontaneous, set spell list. (Though, flavorwise, I could say that Prepared spells are the difference between Divine and Arcane in this world.)


If you still want to run a custom class list then here are my thoughts on that. Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade make excellent fixes for mundane classes, though some people consider warblade more tier 4. I see you think they are just meat shields, but they have decent damage output, and crusader especially can do things out of combat with his skill list. I don't see why you are making swordsage replace its class abilities with scout or rogue, the swordsage fills a completely different roll than a rogue or scout. The druid changes make druid tier 3, though lower on the tier and without much versitility. The mystic ranger list also doesn't feel druidy enough from a flavor standpoint.

Gotcha. I think I will add in one or more of the TOB classes.

Specifically why I wan't to mod Swordsage is because I'm trying to fix the other classes, like Rogue. I personally love the Swordsage standalone.

On Druid: Let me chew on your comments. You're probably right. I like keeping my ACFs, but I should do something besides Mystic Ranger List.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-12-05, 10:50 AM
1. I kind've like the template nature of using both Druidic Avenger and Shapeshifting. But I might just leave this what it originally was, an ACF.
I would, aye. Just mention that you can use it with the Shapeshift druid, since both replace the animal companion.


2. The cleric does lose, yes. But does it go any lower than Warmage, Dread Necro, etc? Please explain 9-level casting from it's domains.
Yes. You're turning it into the Healer, which can cast Sanctified spells by RAW. By "9th level casting from its domains," I mean a normal 9-level spells/day progression, and spontaneous casting, with a list of spells known derived entirely from domain spells.


Thanks, that actually helps. I had actually originally built the list with Crusader on it replacing Paladins, but was wary because OP boards meatshield it to death.
The Crusader is tanky, with delay damage and self-healing abilities, but it does fit the paladin's role pretty well. Just give it a mount and you'll never tell the difference. (Well, except that one is effective and the other has trouble)


Me likes. Looks like a solid Tier 3 Ranger. Have you played with it yet?
Haven't had the opportunity.

Zman
2013-12-05, 12:25 PM
Wow, haven't been on the Forums for a while.

Maybe my Fixed classes project would be of help to you. I was attempting to bring all of the classes to Tiers 2-4. It's also meant to work with my Minor magic Fix, it should all be in my Signature. Almost all casters become spontaneous, I removed 9th level spells, and tried to add more flavor to the classes.

I was also working on a larger overhaul which brings some more balance and a grittier feel to the game. It's actually this project which is bringing me back to the forums.

Falcon X
2013-12-05, 01:54 PM
Yes. You're turning it into the Healer, which can cast Sanctified spells by RAW. By "9th level casting from its domains," I mean a normal 9-level spells/day progression, and spontaneous casting, with a list of spells known derived entirely from domain spells.

Actually, I really like that and think I'll use it. How many domains would you recommend giving the player? I mean, all the other classes get at least 10 spells per level, so the New Cleric should have access to, what, 10 domains worth of spells? And should any of the 10 be compulsory for ALL clerics?

Also, would it be better to go off the Cleric ability progression, or the Healers? Or some combo like a Cleric stats progression, Healer abilities, and our Domain-based spontaneous casting?

Falcon X
2013-12-05, 02:00 PM
Wow, haven't been on the Forums for a while.

Maybe my Fixed classes project would be of help to you. I was attempting to bring all of the classes to Tiers 2-4. It's also meant to work with my Minor magic Fix, it should all be in my Signature. Almost all casters become spontaneous, I removed 9th level spells, and tried to add more flavor to the classes.

I was also working on a larger overhaul which brings some more balance and a grittier feel to the game. It's actually this project which is bringing me back to the forums.

Thank you for this. I'm doing a similar project and I think you and I are thinking in the same direction. I'll look over your stuff and see what I think.

Heh, one of my first attempts at a serious overhaul was when I tried to make most of the classes look like Tome of Battle (Because I love ToB). Then I realized that I was slowly creating 4th Edition...

Grod_The_Giant
2013-12-05, 02:01 PM
There's a couple ways of doing it. When I wrote the idea up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12348960&postcount=2), I granted 5, plus one advanced learning spell/spell level. The second draft that I haven't posted yet starts the same (5 domains + advanced learning), and then you pick 4 more over the course of the class. You could also do your deity's domains plus a short universal spell list.

Falcon X
2013-12-05, 03:20 PM
Just noticed your signature, Grod. Looks like I found the right guy to talk to about Fixed-List Casters.

I have to say, branching into them was revolutionary to me. I have NEVER had more fun in a game then when I played Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. The fixed lists are great, and the classes give abilities to match it.

I remember playing the Dread Necromancer thinking: "Every time I level up, my play style changes." I feel that it's a good mark of a class that you can enjoy every level you are at, while you are in it, and that you feel the difference when it changes.

So, overall, my reason for trying to create a new class list stems from my discoveries in 3 areas:
- Fixed Caster Lists
- Tome of Battle
- The Tier System

Morph Bark
2013-12-05, 03:23 PM
"Hello, good morning! Do you have time to talk about the Homebrew Tier Compendium?" :smallamused:

If you're looking for fixed-list caster fixes, I believe both Jiriku and Temotei have more than a handful to their name each.

Falcon X
2013-12-05, 03:32 PM
"Hello, good morning! Do you have time to talk about the Homebrew Tier Compendium?" :smallamused:

If you're looking for fixed-list caster fixes, I believe both Jiriku and Temotei have more than a handful to their name each.

Man, usually I shut the door in the face of solicitors, but I have, in fact been considering switching class lists.

Do you have any literature that you can leave with me and check back in a week?

(If you failed your innuendo check, that means: Give me a link and we can followup with discussion.)

Morph Bark
2013-12-05, 03:41 PM
The HTC's link is in my signature, but in case you've got those turned off, it's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701).

Tier 3 classes that my group has tested and recommend include Connoisseur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232699), Limit Dragoon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168962), Debaser (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7624907) (Warlock-like in fluff, but Vancian), Earth Dreamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155003), Malefactor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202885) (a great substitute for the Hexblade) and Improviser (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255381) (warning, Bards and/or Rogues may either fall in love or become jealous of its jack-of-all-trades item use).

Falcon X
2013-12-05, 03:52 PM
Can anyone point me towards a Dread Necromancer that has more Good options (alignment)? Kind've like how an cleric's Cure Wounds Spells and Turn Undead change when they go Evil.

I tossed something together for a one-night game once. But it wasn't well thought out. I called it the Spirit Necromancer.
Instead of reanimating the dead, she summoned back spirits. An evil SN forced spirits into servitude, and a good one made deals with them.
Because I could, I Homebrewed up a new set of Summon spells based on the Ghostwalk Campaign Setting. At some spell levels you could summon Corrupting focused Ghosts, others Haunting focused Ghosts, others dominating, others Fighting, etc.
Didn't work out because I just hadn't put much effort into it. But I might re-think it someday.

Any other Dread Necro homebrews out there that have Good options?

johnbragg
2013-12-05, 07:46 PM
My idea for a Tier 3 Cleric, Durkon-style, is Domain Spells Only. One 1st level spell per day (plus Wisdom), one 2nd, one 3rd, etc up to one 9th, chosen from your domain spells. (I'd say in this case, clerics get four domains, including Healing, and if you want to use the Vigor spells instead of the Cure Wounds spells, you could.)

You could also add that to the Adept, for your less-melee-combat oriented clerics.

ngilop
2013-12-05, 09:23 PM
I think a better tier 3 cleric would be a subset of 'universal spells' like bless. prayer, hand of divinity, divine protection etc etc combined with domain casting would be probably a better way to go.. that just sticking with the domains only.

Temotei
2013-12-06, 03:29 AM
Debaser (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7624907) (Warlock-like in fluff, but Vancian)

Whoa, I got plugged. Cool.

I've come bearing the domain favored soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3205543&postcount=1) by Person_Man. It's cute. Might be what you're looking for.