I hate E6! Do you?

[Starmage21]

TBH, I freaking hate E6. For all of the various games I've played in the last 15-16 years, less than 1% of them has been of any kind of high level (or equivalent).

I'm tired of low power, gritty heroisms where the heroes cant stand up to mighty threats!

[AKA_Bait]

Never actually played E6, mostly because the folks I played with enjoyed high powered games more, but the idea behind it has always seem great to me. I like the idea of having a fantasy type game where the PCs track to something resembling actual people.

[Alabenson]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate E6 per say, but I sympathize with your feelings. I prefer higher power games myself, and I've personally never really understood the appeal of "gritty, realistic fantasy".

[Starmage21]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate E6 per say, but I sympathize with your feelings. I prefer higher power games myself, and I've personally never really understood the appeal of "gritty, realistic fantasy".

I freaking hate the entire concept of it. If I wanted to play normal joe, who's just a bit braver and well trained than I am, I'd just go to work.

I'm watching Supernatural on Netflix. Going through season 5 at this point.

Sam and Dean literally have roles so big that at this point the angels would not let either of them die. Both have been told literally "If you kill yourself, I'll just bring you back"

[Scow2]

Meh. I find it better than "DC Superheroes". You're still superhumanly strong and mighty, but not completely invincible.

Most people refuse to admit they're only level 1, and think level 6 isn't "Superhumanly competent" (It's on the border). I love it because Feats are awesome, Big Things are Big and Painful, and you can still achieve incredible ability.

[ngilop]

I only hate it in a very specific way


DMs who say "lets play EPIC 6 LUZL you start at level one on this PbP.."

with how long it take to do anything in PbP and how slow leveling is.. you are looking at minumim 2 months per level...

i mean darn.. if you wnated a e6 PbP why start at level 1 when it don't even fregging matter if you started with the basic rules or E6?

I think E6 was mostly for a balancing point.. not a 'gritty blah feel' but I could be wrong.. besides have you SEEN what GiTPers do with e^.. i think that killing a Balor at lvl 6 shows you can still be stupid powerful.

[Grinner]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate E6 per say, but I sympathize with your feelings. I prefer higher power games myself, and I've personally never really understood the appeal of "gritty, realistic fantasy".

For me, the appeal isn't so much "gritty" or "realistic" as it is "manageable". The mechanics of D&D 3.5/Pathfinder sound completely reasonably at first. Once you give them a closer look though, their flaws show themselves readily; the sheer amount of information you have to wade through at higher levels of play is insane. E6 can help scale things back a bit.

[SiuiS]

TBH, I freaking hate E6. For all of the various games I've played in the last 15-16 years, less than 1% of them has been of any kind of high level (or equivalent).

I'm tired of low power, gritty heroisms where the heroes cant stand up to mighty threats!

I retired a character at level five because he was one-rounding balors and put fiends in melee, and the DM couldn't handle a melee character ruining his precious plots. It's possible in e6 to engineer having an item creation level of 15, and pump out relatively epic equipment, and it's possible to handle some seemingly atrocious challenges by being good with the system and playing it against itself.

I think hating e6 is silly, when the reason is you want to be high level. That's not e6's fault; it's the DMs. That said, I fully understand getting tired of it; I want an e6 game because I'm getting sick of both my 60th level epic scheming and of DMs trying to start me off at low level specifically so their DMPC can shine against epic (literal and figurative) threats. I'd like a game like Conan or fahfrd and the grey mouser, where I don't have to save the gorram multiverse!
But I don't hate the concept of those games; just their continual execution.

Try to get into a high level game! Or run one! :smallsmile:

[jaybird]

It's really a way of keeping the number of options open to both players and NPCs under control, considering that 4th level spells are the first spells that can really be considered campaign-breaking powerhouses. DDoor, Evard's, Polymorph, Overland Flight, and those are just the first spells to come to mind off the arcane list. I don't mean campaign-breaking in the sense of powerful, I mean campaign-breaking in the sense of 4th level spells being the point where most common plots become utterly trivial to solve.

[ddude987]

^.. i think that killing a Balor at lvl 6 shows you can still be stupid powerful.

so if you can be powerful what's the problem with e6? The main complaint seems to be you can't have a high powered campaign, but I disagree. You can still have a high powered campaign where the players reach superhero level and cap the game at 6th level. The reason for capping the game at 6th level is so the ridiculousness of spells doesn't overtake the game, and to do something superpowered you should be trained and practiced in it.

I'll level though, e6 shouldn't be played PbP.

[Faily]

I dislike E6 because I don't like having such a low cap, so to speak, on progressing my character. I also like seeing my character progress as the sessions go on, and would hate to be stuck in the level 1-2 ditch for too long. I don't mind playing in the low levels, but I sure would like to leave them some day.

[BWR]

with how long it take to do anything in PbP and how slow leveling is.. you are looking at minumim 2 months per level...


Bah, damn youngesters, have to have everything so quick and easy. Why, back when I played 2E we got 12 levels over 8 years (I actually only got 10 levels because I was playing a Knight of Solamnia), and that was with a ****load of combat. Back then a level meant something. Our wizard was 8th level before he got something as powerful as Fireball. And that was with weekly face to face sessions.

/'oldie' rant

[Dead_Jester]

Personally, I love E6 for what it does; its a great system for more realistic worlds, where demon invasions are a very real threat to everything, dragons are seriously scary, and you don't have 25 000 level 20 plot-heroes that should by all rights be doing what the PC's are doing because they are better at what they do. E6 also gives a much more faithful representation of traditional western fantasy than standard D&D: spells over level 3 are pretty much unheard of outside of rituals and stuff, creatures that are supposed to be big and nasty are big and nasty, you don't need 33 types of giants to keep them relevant, and 18 age categories for dragons, and a big bunch of regular schmucks can pose a threat to a hero.

The main thing, however, is that E6 manages to keep everyone relatively relevant throughout the game; casters don't become too crazy, and the full bab classes get something nice and unique for once; they are the only ones with 2 attacks, which makes them the de facto combat classes.

However, E6 usually doesn't fit well into the progression scheme of standard d&d (although level 6 is a very nice cutoff point), and does play a lot better with classes that are specifically made for it, ala Gnorman E6 classes, classes that are pretty heavily front-loaded compared to core classes which need to spread abilities out over 20 levels.

[ngilop]

Bah, damn youngesters, have to have everything so quick and easy. Why, back when I played 2E we got 12 levels over 8 years (I actually only got 10 levels because I was playing a Knight of Solamnia), and that was with a ****load of combat. Back then a level meant something. Our wizard was 8th level before he got something as powerful as Fireball. And that was with weekly face to face sessions.

/'oldie' rant

i started with originla D&D.. so I know how long it takes to level.. my last 2nd ED campaign ( which never finished) got up to 18th level afetr a year and a half and that was all day and night session about every weekened.

3rd ed leveling became MUCH faster

Now for 2nd ed PbP.. i played one for 2 years.. AT the very end of it.. i finally level. so...


ddude987.. I was just saying that E6 should not be played via PbP.. and gave an example of how you can still be super powerful even within E6 for the OP.. i like the idea and truth be told Im working on something very similar that I hope ( by next year's end) to have fully finished and maybe.. just maybe somebody on this site won;'t just spew hate and rudeness and insults.

[Pesimismrocks]

I like E6. It holds elements of suspense and danger and allows the Dm to make sophisticated plots without a wizard saying: I cast x, can we move on to the next plot line now

The fact that a character can die, where every move can mean life or death, where tactics are as important as the skills you have learnt mean that the game has more emotion in it, fear and tension and intrigue which are very difficult to recreate at higher levels.

High levels are nice and all but it really is just droning combat where someone his the do x amount of damage, opponent survives and returns fire, with no variation or difference. Also less experienced players fall way behind and feel like they cannot competently fend for themselves and feel left out of the game. Spellcasters, especially optimised ones will just teleport off to win and eradicate every atom in the multiverse

[Brookshw]

Honestly once I finish my current planar epic campaign where I told the players to aim for high power I think I'll be ready for a nice calm E6.

[shadow_archmagi]

I don't understand how one comes to hate an RPG system. I can understand not having fun with one, but hatred requires a certain intimacy that I can't imagine developing- you'd have to keep choosing a recreational activity that wasn't fun, over and over again.

I don't think E6 is wholly for me, but I haven't played it. It's certainly a novel concept, and I'd be willing to try it, if only because it seems it might offer a good compromise between absurd scaling and hilarious incompetence.

[Suddo]

You could always play 4th Ed. Fun combat and magic doesn't break everything. And your characters are durable. Just refluff all the stuff they took out (like LE or CG).

[Kaeso]

I'm actually quite fond of E6, because it's more fitting for telling a long term story, because the "power level" remains somewhat constant. Sure, at level 6 you'll have an easier time cutting down a group of goblins than at level 1, but across all levels a large enough group of goblins remains a realistic threat. You can actually have a campaign where, for example, the bulk of the enemy forces consists of goblins.

Another advantage I really, really like is that it limits the gap between the classes. Melee does not get overshadowed by magic as much as in normal E20, wizards can throw around fiery destruction but warblades and barbarians still have a very clear role that makes them very useful.

Finally, E6 puts a cap on your character, but never prevents them from progressing. Imagine, if you will, a legendary swordsman. He's the kind of man who ends up in legends. He's at his peak and will never get stronger than that (because it's simply impossible), but he will get better by improving his technique and experimenting with new styles. This is what E6 does: you don't grow stronger (new levels) but better (new feats, making such chains as spring attack actually worthwhile).

[nedz]

A large part of the attraction of this game is aspirational. This about looking forward to new levels, buying new shiny toys, taking new feats and learning new spells.

E6 does take this away somewhat since there are only 6 levels, the toys are not quite so shiny and 2/3rds of the spells are out of bounds.

It does create a more balanced game since casters are more limited. The combats runs faster too since there are fewer attacks in a round and the action economy is less broken by magic.

It depends upon what sort of game you want to play obviously and there is no right answer to this question other than your own answer — or not in this case.

[Brookshw]

but hatred requires a certain intimacy

You mean you've never curled up in bed with a book, just the two of you, alone.....

[NichG]

The thing I like about E6 is it makes it pretty clear what the boundaries are. High level play can be fun, but frankly it takes a more skilled DM than most, and the players need to be quite familiar with the system and also very aware of eachothers' enjoyment of the game to make it work. In a Lv20 game, its really easy to steal the show or end up with a totally unworkable character. The only thing that stands in the way of that is the players and DM working as a group to make sure everyone is viable and that no one is too over-the-top for the group. That's going to mean a lot of compromises, soft-bans, requests to alter one's power-level, etc.

Which means that the players and DM have to be good at not just the rules, but at social mediation. It's a lot harder to get someone to police their own power level than to just have a rule which does it semi-automatically.

I do think that E6 needs a sort of secondary advancement track to keep people's interests over the long haul. This would be some other aspect that grows linearly, external to the character's own build. For example, start each character with a hamlet that follows their lead and as they grow in power, they have larger armies, more secondary adventurers who can be sent out to do tasks, etc. I think you'd want to be up front about this being the eventual destination of the campaign (many players don't really like the 'I will send my forces out to deal with X' gameplay), as well as to give players an idea of what their advancement will actually look like.

[Kaeso]

A large part of the attraction of this game is aspirational. This about looking forward to new levels, buying new shiny toys, taking new feats and learning new spells.

E6 does take this away somewhat since there are only 6 levels, the toys are not quite so shiny and 2/3rds of the spells are out of bounds.

Depending on what kind of game you and your group want to play, this can actually be more of a blessing than a curse. There is pretty much no more level grinding to do, and most flashy toys have already been acquired. From that point on, only minor improvements to your character can be made. This actually encourages more story based gameplay, characters make choices based on completely other reasons than "bashing more monsters means more levels" or "bashing more monsters means more flashy toys". In fact, this makes it easier for characters to refuse to do things for completely in character reasons.

[JaronK]

We switched to E6 recently due to our level 12 characters being WAY too powerful. Once we were one shotting Great Wyrms with ease, it was just not fun enough anymore. In E6, there's more of a challenge.

What we're doing now is trying to play D&D exactly as originally intended. This means playing at level 6, against randomized enemies exactly as the DMG suggests (in the exact proportions, using home made random generators and random dungeons).

It's a lot deadlier, that's for sure.

[Emperor Tippy]

To the OP, no. It's not exactly my preferred level range to play at but I don't hate it.

On another note, you can get an ML of 18+ and XP free Bend Reality along with Persistent True Metabolism and other insanity in E6 if you want.

[Dr. Cliché]

Sorry, but what's E6?

[Grinner]

Sorry, but what's E6?

It's a D&D hack, also known as Epic 6. Essentially, you limit characters to six levels and award them one feat every five-thousand XP thereafter.

[Dr. Cliché]

It's a D&D hack, also known as Epic 6. Essentially, you limit characters to six levels and award them one feat every five-thousand XP thereafter.

So, do they get anything special in those 6 levels? Or, are wizards stuck with lv3 spells for the rest of their career? :smallconfused:

[Grinner]

Or, are wizards stuck with lv3 spells for the rest of their career? :smallconfused:

That's actually the idea.

[shadow_archmagi]

So, do they get anything special in those 6 levels? Or, are wizards stuck with lv3 spells for the rest of their career? :smallconfused:

That's essentially the core goal; give Wizards a reasonable toolbox (3rd level spells are pretty good) without making them as uber as they are at, say, 15th level

[Dr. Cliché]

That's actually the idea.

As a spellcaster-player, I'm struggling to see the attraction. :smallwink:

[Kaeso]

Sorry, but what's E6?

Click me. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_6)
In short, E6 is normal DnD where level 6 is assumed to be the maximum level, based on the theory that in real life, level 6 is the highest humanly attainable. Level 1 and 2 would be the untalented guys, probably what a normal guy would be like if conscripted and put through a few weeks of boot camp. Random city guards would be at around this level. Levels 3 and 4 indicates people who are highly trained in their chosen profession. This would involve professional soldiers, university teachers, scientists etc. Level 5 is somebody who's excellent in his field, the best of the best. At level 6, you're at the point where you're almost considered a legend. Men like Napoleon, Louis Cyr, Albert Einstein etc. would probably be considered level 6 in their chosen fields.

E6 has two purposes: first of all to keep things more "realistic" (like I said earlier, E6 is the highest attainable in real life according to this theory. At level 10-15 you've already surpassed the legendary realm of Louis Cyr and are entering into the mythical realm of Hercules. At level 20, you're practically the God of Powerlifting). Secondly, it more or less 'enforces' balance. A fighter is still a worse choice than a wizard in E6, but unlike in normal DnD it's still a viable choice. A decently built fighter still has a place in his party in E6, and a wizard in E6 is powerful but not the one-shotting, all powerful demigod he is in normal DnD once he reaches the higher levels (15-16). It keeps the group more balanced and thus (in my opinion) more fun for everybody involved.


As a spellcaster-player, I'm struggling to see the attraction. :smallwink:

I don't mean to sound rude, but let's put it like this: would you rather play a wizard who's practically a one man legion, taking out demonic entities left and right with the greatest of ease, or would you rather play a powerful but not omnipotent mage who needs to overcome deadly struggles with the aid of his (perhaps less magically inclined) companions? There's no wrong answer.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Edit: What Kaeso said.

My group found the concept intriguing and are only now just starting it though so far the four Dwarves are all still level one.

[Pex]

I enjoy high level play. When I start a new campaign at 1st level I want to get there. I want to do all those fantastic things only NPC Patrons get to do. I want to be "powerful". I want the high numbers. These are not verboten things to players.

[cakellene]

I don't hate it, but at the same time I don't understand what is appealling about it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I don't hate it, but at the same time I don't understand what is appealling about it.

maintaining character advancement without the headaches of high level.

[Kaeso]

maintaining character advancement without the headaches of high level.

That, and maintaining balance between the character classes without arbitrary DM intervention. Level 6 is roughly the level where spellcasters get really strong, but not obscenely strong. They don't have the spells that make other classes almost entirely obsolete.

[cakellene]

That, and maintaining balance between the character classes without arbitrary DM intervention. Level 6 is roughly the level where spellcasters get really strong, but not obscenely strong. They don't have the spells that make other classes almost entirely obsolete.

At that level, my characters are seldom at the power level I enjoy, and I play melees almost exclusively.

[Dr. Cliché]

I don't mean to sound rude, but let's put it like this: would you rather play a wizard who's practically a one man legion, taking out demonic entities left and right with the greatest of ease, or would you rather play a powerful but not omnipotent mage who needs to overcome deadly struggles with the aid of his (perhaps less magically inclined) companions? There's no wrong answer.

I'd like to play a mage who can at least progress in his casting ability. Stopping at lv6, whilst the Level 4 spells sit smugly one level out of reach and taunt me for the remainder of my life just seems... depressing. I'd feel like an orphan, gazing into the window of a Dickensian toy shop at the delights within - yet knowing that I will never own them. :smalltongue:

I'm not saying that I hate it, or that I can't understand why others might want to play such a system - I'm just saying that it holds no appeal for me.

[Scow2]

Frankly, I think e6 gives better progression than a standard D&D game, because you always have a choice in what you want to improve. Want more hitpoints? Take Toughness. Want better to-hit? Weapon Focus looks nicer than it does in 3.5. Fighters get a lot of nice things, because they can get a BAB of +8, which opens up a larger number of Fighter-Only bonus feats that they can actually invest in after getting the "Good" feats.

[Dr. Cliché]

Fighters get a lot of nice things, because they can get a BAB of +8, which opens up a larger number of Fighter-Only bonus feats that they can actually invest in after getting the "Good" feats.

How are they getting +8 BAB?

[Starmage21]

To the OP, no. It's not exactly my preferred level range to play at but I don't hate it.

On another note, you can get an ML of 18+ and XP free Bend Reality along with Persistent True Metabolism and other insanity in E6 if you want.

Perhaps this is why I loathe it so. I do not typically play with high-optimization groups. When I think of E6, I think of a character that has 4-5 levels in a base class, and 1-2 levels in a PrC(if there is a PrC at all). When I look at PrCs, I'm looking at those capstones longingly.

Games just dont last long enough to see 12th-17th level in my experience. They fall by the wayside for one reason or another.

I sympathize with some of the oldies in this thread too. I started D&D with AD&D 2nd Edition (white books), but my first book purchases were the black covers.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Frankly, I think e6 gives better progression than a standard D&D game, because you always have a choice in what you want to improve. Want more hitpoints? Take Toughness. Want better to-hit? Weapon Focus looks nicer than it does in 3.5. Fighters get a lot of nice things, because they can get a BAB of +8, which opens up a larger number of Fighter-Only bonus feats that they can actually invest in after getting the "Good" feats.

You'd need a special E6 feat to qualify for +8BAB feats.


Games just dont last long enough to see 12th-17th level in my experience. They fall by the wayside for one reason or another.
In my experience they do perhaps that's why E6 appeals to me. I've had my fill of high level play.


How are they getting +8 BAB?

Common E6 feats include things like counting as having a BAB +8 or an single 4th level spell slot for the use of metamagic feat etc. If one is using the lean upwards approach.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't -hate- E6. Really, I can take it or leave it.

I do question one of the suppositions that is the basis for E6 though; the idea that 4th level spells are so very campaign breaking.

A quick once over of the Sorc/wiz list shows D-door, Scrying, Polymorph, and -maybe- Black Tentacles. The cleric list adds Lesser Planar Ally and -maybe- Freedom of movement.

Of those, only polymorph and -maybe- Planar Ally seem to be genuinely problematic and even then planar ally has a pretty hefty cost attached to it.

D-door and scrying are countered quite handily with simply controlling the flow of information. Though D-door does have some nice combat application. Black Tentacles isn't that rough if you just avoid clustering the party's enemies (also a good idea for countering fireball).

I freely admit that polymorph is a real game-breaker. This is a very well known bug in the system. I honestly don't see much problem with Freedom of Movement. I suppose defenses just don't excite me that way when there are so many other avenues for attack.

I like E8 slightly better but, again, I can take it or leave it.

[Psyren]

One suggestion I've heard to make E6 more exciting is to combine it with Mythic rules for the PCs only, then pit them against some higher-CR challenges.

[nedz]

I enjoy high level play. When I start a new campaign at 1st level I want to get there. I want to do all those fantastic things only NPC Patrons get to do. I want to be "powerful". I want the high numbers. These are not verboten things to players.
Level 6 is the high numbers in E6. Level 7 is forbidden to everyone.


I'd like to play a mage who can at least progress in his casting ability. Stopping at lv6, whilst the Level 4 spells sit smugly one level out of reach and taunt me for the remainder of my life just seems... depressing. I'd feel like an orphan, gazing into the window of a Dickensian toy shop at the delights within - yet knowing that I will never own them. :smalltongue:
See my earlier post about aspirations.

I'm not saying that I hate it, or that I can't understand why others might want to play such a system - I'm just saying that it holds no appeal for me.

Linear Fighter / Quadratic Wizard is roughly balanced at level 6. Now there is an E8 variant too but really the I win stuff starts with level 4 spells.

It's not for everyone, but some of us have been playing this game a long time and we have done the high level stuff — it was great, but we've been there. If, when you get to this point, you decide that you prefer the lower levels of the game: E6 is for you.

[Thanatosia]

My problem with E6 is I love building characters through hopping classes. I've never liked just picking a class at lv1 and just making the level number bigger - the abiliity to mix and match classes at each level was always my favorite feature of D&D 3.0/3.5, and I adore Prestige Classes.

Without Early access Tricks, most Prestige Classes are designed to take 5 levels of unlocking to even be an option starting at lv6. E6 essentially stops the game right at the point I find it starting to get interesting. Things do get silly at lv18+ or so (and with obscene Optimization I know it can happen much earlier, as some posters here have indicated, things CAN get out of hand even in E6), so my favorite games tend to start at lv5-6 and cap out around 15-18.

[Maximumfinch]

I don't -hate- E6. Really, I can take it or leave it.

I do question one of the suppositions that is the basis for E6 though; the idea that 4th level spells are so very campaign breaking.

A quick once over of the Sorc/wiz list shows D-door, Scrying, Polymorph, and -maybe- Black Tentacles. The cleric list adds Lesser Planar Ally and -maybe- Freedom of movement.

Of those, only polymorph and -maybe- Planar Ally seem to be genuinely problematic and even then planar ally has a pretty hefty cost attached to it.

D-door and scrying are countered quite handily with simply controlling the flow of information. Though D-door does have some nice combat application. Black Tentacles isn't that rough if you just avoid clustering the party's enemies (also a good idea for countering fireball).

I freely admit that polymorph is a real game-breaker. This is a very well known bug in the system. I honestly don't see much problem with Freedom of Movement. I suppose defenses just don't excite me that way when there are so many other avenues for attack.

I like E8 slightly better but, again, I can take it or leave it.

Usually, casters are pulling from other sources in addition to the PHB spells.

I like E6 for the reason that it keeps the caster/melee issues in (relative) line and also keeps the world threatening.

The biggest reason I like it, however, is that it short-circuits a lot of the plot issues that can appear if you're going to high levels. Epic McWizardson hires a squad of low level goons to go across the continent and fetch his MacGuffin when he could Greater Teleport there, kill or disable everybody in a mile radius and be back in the time it would take to draft the contract to hire said squad. And that's being generous.

Additionally, it also keeps you focused on the little guy. You know, the level one commoners just trying to scratch a living out. Since you're not negotiating with Gods and curb-stomping Orcus for laughs, you end up caring about the villagers you're protecting instead of them being there as the DM threatens to yank your good alignment if you ignore their plight.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't -hate- E6. Really, I can take it or leave it.

I do question one of the suppositions that is the basis for E6 though; the idea that 4th level spells are so very campaign breaking.

A quick once over of the Sorc/wiz list shows D-door, Scrying, Polymorph, and -maybe- Black Tentacles. The cleric list adds Lesser Planar Ally and -maybe- Freedom of movement.

Of those, only polymorph and -maybe- Planar Ally seem to be genuinely problematic and even then planar ally has a pretty hefty cost attached to it.

D-door and scrying are countered quite handily with simply controlling the flow of information. Though D-door does have some nice combat application. Black Tentacles isn't that rough if you just avoid clustering the party's enemies (also a good idea for countering fireball).

I freely admit that polymorph is a real game-breaker. This is a very well known bug in the system. I honestly don't see much problem with Freedom of Movement. I suppose defenses just don't excite me that way when there are so many other avenues for attack.

I like E8 slightly better but, again, I can take it or leave it.

But there are special feats for E6 that will give you one or two 4th level spells.

[NichG]

Excluding 4th level spells also prevents all simple sources of Resurrection/Reincarnation and also Plane Shift (e.g. barring optimization tricks that get you 4th level spells or access to summoned creatures with higher-level SLAs or things like that), which can also be important for certain plots.

(In E6-sans-capstone feats at least)

[Person_Man]

I've been playing every edition of D&D 20 something years, and my personal sweet spot is generally around levels 3-9ish. But I also personally enjoy a strong emphasis on exploration and roleplaying, and generally dislike it when encounters are bypassed via high level magic. But that's the nice thing about D&D - people can play whatever type of game they like.

[Pex]

Level 6 is the high numbers in E6. Level 7 is forbidden to everyone.


That's the problem. I like level 7. I like level 8. I like level 9. I like level 10. I like level 11. I like level 12. I like level 13. I like level 14. I like level 15. I like level 16. I like level 17. I like level 18. I like level 19. I like level 20.

[huttj509]

That's the problem. I like level 7. I like level 8. I like level 9. I like level 10. I like level 11. I like level 12. I like level 13. I like level 14. I like level 15. I like level 16. I like level 17. I like level 18. I like level 19. I like level 20.

Then don't play E6.

It's more for folks who want a particular feel/style of play (either for a temporary period, or long term), than "this is the right way to do things."

It's like different game systems. "I really don't like shadowrun." Then don't play shadowrun.


Now, if the issue's that you don't like the style of E6, but the rest of your group does, then the problem's not with E6, but with a difference of preferred game style and expectations within the group.

[awa]

I like e6 for a number of reasons.
I also reject the idea that a level 6 character cant be epic. People sometimes confuse big numbers with epic ive seen premade adventures with random level 10 commoners nothing special about them there just level 10. The generic town guards are also level 6+ even double digit levels were not particularly impressive. the party was tasked with chasing what was essentially a regenerating zombie that jumped real good it was not epic.

Ive played a game were level 13 was high enough level to run errands for all the Mary sue epic level characters, and another where the mayor of a small town just happened to be level 18 for no good reason. the fact that epic and near epic level characters were sitting every where did not make the games epic.

I ran a game were the default soldier was basically a commoner with martial weapon proficiency. level 2 pcs tore through them by the dozens to get to the evil "wizard" casting a ritual for immortality they cut down his guards then after a long drawn out battle killed the "wizard" preventing him from achieving immortality. In the same adventure the level 2 party fought inside a burning building on a cliff near the end as the burning building was tipping into the sea debris falling and smashing unlucky combatants before the party jumped or feather falled to safely just as the building tore free of the cliff.

low level does not mean the heroes cant be legendary high level does not mean they are.

If the default swashbuckler is level 7 with a prestige class level 6 pcs will seem like chumps. If instead dualist are level 1 warrior with weapon finiesis then the level 6 pcwill look like a true master.

Its all relative to how you depict it. In e6 a balor is not just a big demon it is a demon lord, titan is a outright god and so on.

I realize i'm starting to ramble so i apologies that ended up like 4 times longer then i was planning.

[Talya]

I'll level though, e6 shouldn't be played PbP.

I actually think PbP is the perfect medium for E6... because I don't think I've ever gotten a PBP campaign past level 7 or 8 anyway. E6 wouldn't really all that limiting...you'd actually have a shot at becoming the most powerful big damn heroes in the setting.

[ngilop]

I actually think PbP is the perfect medium for E6... because I don't think I've ever gotten a PBP campaign past level 7 or 8 anyway. E6 wouldn't really all that limiting...you'd actually have a shot at becoming the most powerful big damn heroes in the setting.

thts actually teh exact reason why you shouldn't do E6 in pbP.. not like you going to get past 6th ( or much past level 6)

My argument isnto so much e6 is bad for PbP.. but why say " This is an E6 game.. but everybody is starting at lvl 1" can you tell me the difference bwteen start a regular game at lvl 1 as opposed to an E6 game at level one?

[huttj509]

thts actually teh exact reason why you shouldn't do E6 in pbP.. not like you going to get past 6th ( or much past level 6)

My argument isnto so much e6 is bad for PbP.. but why say " This is an E6 game.. but everybody is starting at lvl 1" can you tell me the difference bwteen start a regular game at lvl 1 as opposed to an E6 game at level one?

The power level of other characters in the world.

[Dead_Jester]

My problem with E6 is I love building characters through hopping classes. I've never liked just picking a class at lv1 and just making the level number bigger - the abiliity to mix and match classes at each level was always my favorite feature of D&D 3.0/3.5, and I adore Prestige Classes.

Without Early access Tricks, most Prestige Classes are designed to take 5 levels of unlocking to even be an option starting at lv6. E6 essentially stops the game right at the point I find it starting to get interesting. Things do get silly at lv18+ or so (and with obscene Optimization I know it can happen much earlier, as some posters here have indicated, things CAN get out of hand even in E6), so my favorite games tend to start at lv5-6 and cap out around 15-18.

You see, stopping the overly complicated build synergies (which I have to admit I quite like about 3.X, but not all the time) is one of the attracts of E6; it's meant to be closer to earlier editions in feel, where as a Dm you can make plots and adventures in a pinch without having to worry about unforeseen plot-breaking abilities because there simply aren't that many of them, assuming you keep a certain gentlemen's agreement against stinky cheese, and the focus of the game isn't on character progression, it's on story progression. If that's not what you want to play, than that's fine.

However, something that has to be addressed is the fact the E6 doesn't perform as well as it could if you insist on using the core rules only; it does become a lot more playable if you are willing to put a bit of work into adapting some stuff. For instance, with feats being your only resource past level 6, there is no reason why some PrC abilities should not be available as feat chains. Want to cherry pick abilities from other classes? Why not make a few feats similar to those available in late 3.X subsystems ala Martial Study/ Bind Vestige/Shape Soulmeld?

[DarkSonic1337]

I would KILL for some of the gish prestige class abilities as feat chains!

What kind of chain (and what requirements) would be good for the Spellsword's Channel Spell ability.

I'm a sucker for Magic Fighters. How well do the Magus and Duskblade perform in E6? (considering most Fullcaster/martial guy/Prestige/Prestige builds don't kick in till later). I don't want to be a cleric because I like actually using magic while fighting, not just buffing up and then going into melee and not casting again <_<.

[Tvtyrant]

thts actually teh exact reason why you shouldn't do E6 in pbP.. not like you going to get past 6th ( or much past level 6)

My argument isnto so much e6 is bad for PbP.. but why say " This is an E6 game.. but everybody is starting at lvl 1" can you tell me the difference bwteen start a regular game at lvl 1 as opposed to an E6 game at level one?

I think the rationalized world design has some independent advantages, along with the feeling that the ceiling isn't quite so high (a lot of cities have mid-high level characters capable of destroying said city.)

[TripleD]

Love E6, but mostly for personal reasons.

IRL, I love going for long walks. Forests, Cities, it doesn't matter. Watching the way things interact with each other, the way certain trees will only grow in certain areas, the way a person always walks their dog the same downhill direction, makes me feel a deep sense of contentment. Don't know why, it's just a peculiar tick of mine.

With high level play I feel this deep sense of detachment from the way that the physical world doesn't really matter anymore. Mountain range between you and your destination? Just teleport. Or destroy the mountain. Or shift it to another plane. The player is so godlike that it's hard for me to be impressed by anything they do, since it all falls so far within their range of abilities.

What impresses me is creativity, particularly the creativity that comes from solving complex problems with simple tools. E6 gives me a world where a simple pit or river can be a major obstacle that requires teamwork to get around. That's the kind of game I like.

I will admit that the loss of so many prestige classes is tough, but there are ways to tweak it. For example, at level 6 I get my first level of Combat Trapsmith. In lieu of feats, my DM will let me take the "special features"/"combat traps known" for the next level of the PrC. BAB and saves never improve, but I get all the fun toys I came to the class for.

[Angelalex242]

I like high power games. This E6 stuff not so much my cup of tea.

[Waddacku]

I enjoy the idea of using PrCs instead of base classes for a lot of things in E6.

[Dead_Jester]

I'm a sucker for Magic Fighters. How well do the Magus and Duskblade perform in E6? (considering most Fullcaster/martial guy/Prestige/Prestige builds don't kick in till later). I don't want to be a cleric because I like actually using magic while fighting, not just buffing up and then going into melee and not casting again <_<.

Well, for Gishing it up in standard E6, it's hard to get better than a Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order, possibly with Shooting Star as well; full Bab, Sorcerer spell progression, and access to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. You do however lose out on the animal companion, but the ranger's one isn't that great.

Magus and Duskblades are decent, but Psy War is probably better as a gish.

As for the Spellsword's channel spell ability, I'd make it a 6th level feat, probably allowing it to be brought down to a swift action with another feat (the later possibly with an XP minimum, something like a prerequisite of 5 post level 6 feats)

[Talya]

Well, for Gishing it up in standard E6, it's hard to get better than a Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order, possibly with Shooting Star as well; full Bab, Sorcerer spell progression, and access to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list.

The Mystic Ranger with SotAO is a god in E6.


You do however lose out on the animal companion, but the ranger's one isn't that great.

If you miss it that much, that's what Wild Cohort is for. Feats aren't exactly precious commodities in E6.

[The Insaniac]

The issue that I have with e6 is that it's supposed to be this gritty, realistic fantasy game that maps to real life power levels as well as fantasy can. The thing is though, I don't think that D&D is simulationist enough for that as a system. Everything is just much too abstract for me to get that feeling from it.

[DarkSonic1337]

Oh wow, SotAO Mystic Ranger sounds pretty awesome. I don't care about the animal companion anyway. I always did like the ranger spell list, they just got their spells too late.

Psychic Warriors seem kinda cool too, but imo it's too light on the debuff and battlefield control side for me (also my issue with the duskblade). I don't need both but I would occasionally like to do something other than direct damage or buffing myself (to then do direct damage <_<) with my gish.

Magus gets by for me because I can spell blending to grab sorc/wiz spells, and because spellstrike is litterally the coolest written ability ever to me. Like OMG spell strike is just EXACTLY WHAT I WANT TO DO without the harsh action economy restrictions of other spell channeling abilities.

[Raven777]

I really, really like my Shadow Conjuration / Evocation, and I really, really can't do it in E6 :'( Which is why I prefer the 11th-12th level range as a cap.

[Occasional Sage]

Most people refuse to admit they're only level 1, and think level 6 isn't "Superhumanly competent" (It's on the border). I love it because Feats are awesome, Big Things are Big and Painful, and you can still achieve incredible ability.


Yeah, I love being able to deal with a credible threat that doesn't involve rocket tag.



Bah, damn youngesters, have to have everything so quick and easy. Why, back when I played 2E we got 12 levels over 8 years (I actually only got 10 levels because I was playing a Knight of Solamnia), and that was with a ****load of combat. Back then a level meant something. Our wizard was 8th level before he got something as powerful as Fireball. And that was with weekly face to face sessions.

/'oldie' rant


PREACH IT, BROTHER!

While I don't miss the builtin racism of limited class and restricted advancement by race, I *sorely* miss differentiated advancement by class. I also don't miss 1e art, other than in a campy way.
1/2e really did make you work for your character, and I find that lacking in 3/PF; DMs need to be much, much more on their toes to challenge parties, and expectations have shifted dramatically. E6, though, has the ability to make you feel heroic in a world that is larger than you and dangerous (much like earlier editions did) with the advantage of easily-accessable rule books.

[Fable Wright]

To the OP, no. It's not exactly my preferred level range to play at but I don't hate it.

On another note, you can get an ML of 18+ and XP free Bend Reality along with Persistent True Metabolism and other insanity in E6 if you want.
Okay, I'll bite. How do you get the Bend Reality? I'm familiar with 9th level spells at 1st level, but how do you get ML 18?

I'm a sucker for Magic Fighters. How well do the Magus and Duskblade perform in E6? (considering most Fullcaster/martial guy/Prestige/Prestige builds don't kick in till later). I don't want to be a cleric because I like actually using magic while fighting, not just buffing up and then going into melee and not casting again <_<.
Duskblade is fantastic if you know how to work it. Levels 1-5, your damage output is unparalleled. First Blade of Blood, then Knowledge Devotion and Channeled Shocking Grasps, supplemented by mobility boosting spells and whatever early options you grab with your feats. If you want battlefield control/utility, look into Deceptive Illumination and Fascinating Illumination; they open up some nice options, especially at level 1, and I basically view them as part and parcel of the Duskblade chassis in E6. Debuffs, especially delivered via Quick Cast and/or Poison Spell + Chill Touch, are a very open route for Duskblades to go. Dragon Magazine Bloodline feats and/or Arcane Disciple plus Versatile Spellcaster also opens up a ton of options for them. Big fan of the class.

-----

On subject, I can't say I do. I'm a big fan of it. You open options by being clever, no one character can do everything, there is a risk to every combat... it makes for a very roguelike game, which I am a fan of. While people who want to play Alucard will be rather disappointed with what E6 has to offer, people who want to play Aragorn, Conan, and other such limited heroes will like E6 a lot more.

[Fates]

On subject, I can't say I do. I'm a big fan of it. You open options by being clever, no one character can do everything, there is a risk to every combat... it makes for a very roguelike game, which I am a what E6 has to offer, people who want to play Aragorn, Conan, and other such limited heroes will like E6 a lot more.

Or Gandalf, for that matter. Really, how often did he ever cast a spell over first level, much less third? And he was, quite literally, a demigod of sorts. Ged from the Earthsea Cycle books was about the same (though he made much more frequent use of his spells), and yet Earthsea is by many accounts the progenitor for much of modern "high fantasy." A spellcaster doesn't need fourth level and higher spells to be powerful, or interesting to play- from my perspective, at the very least.

[Yora]

E6 is mostly relevant as a worldbuilding tool, not really so much for player characters.
If a game is E6 or not only has any impact on the PCs if they ever get to 7th level and beyond. Which in the games I played only happened twice.

However, this thread isn't about E6 at all. It's all about people prefering low-level play or high-level play.

[Psyren]

PREACH IT, BROTHER!

While I don't miss the builtin racism of limited class and restricted advancement by race, I *sorely* miss differentiated advancement by class. I also don't miss 1e art, other than in a campy way.
1/2e really did make you work for your character, and I find that lacking in 3/PF; DMs need to be much, much more on their toes to challenge parties, and expectations have shifted dramatically. E6, though, has the ability to make you feel heroic in a world that is larger than you and dangerous (much like earlier editions did) with the advantage of easily-accessable rule books.

You can take as snoozingly long as you want to level in the more recent editions too. Nobody says you have to use the published XP values. :smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate E6 per say, but I sympathize with your feelings. I prefer higher power games myself, and I've personally never really understood the appeal of "gritty, realistic fantasy".

E6 is not meant to create a "gritty, realistic fantasy". Its objective, is to play a more balanced game, primarly avoiding the excesses of high level magic.
You're free to dislike it because it's not high level, but that's it.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I really, really like my Shadow Conjuration / Evocation, and I really, really can't do it in E6 :'( Which is why I prefer the 11th-12th level range as a cap.

Gnome Focused Illusionist 3. Take:

1: Heighten Spell
Flaw: Metamagic School Focus (Illusion)
Flaw: Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell)
3: Whatever you want (probably Earth Sense so you can take Earth Spell at level 6).

You can qualify for Shadowcraft Mage by heightening Net of Shadows to level 4 by expending one use of metamagic school focus and a 2nd-level spell slot. You can get Shadow Illusions with 3 levels of Shadowcraft Mage, getting you the ability to use Shadow Conjuration/Evocation to your heart's desire within the 6-level cap. Use your epic feats to take Arcane Thesis (Silent Image), Spell Mastery (Silent Image), and Signature Spell (Silent Image).

This all assumes that metamagic reduction works with Heighten Spell, which not everyone agrees upon. If it doesn't, then you're screwed. If your DM rules you can use Metamagic School Focus multiple times on a single spell, you can qualify at level 1 (and delay Easy Metamagic to get Earth Spell online sooner) so you can reach Shadowcraft Mage 5 and get those goodies. If your DM lets you skip the racial requirement, you can be a human and get a bonus feat.

Alternatively, Archivist 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3, taking DMM: Heighten (qualify at level 2 with your Cleric turning pool by heightening Dead End from the bard spell list with your archivist level.) Take Undeath as one of your Cleric domains to get Extra Turning, and fit Arcane Disciple (Luck) in there somewhere. Congratulations! You're now emulating Shadow Miracles. Granted unlikely to be more than once or twice per day unless your DM lets you go nuts with Nightsticks, but it's still a neat trick. You *might* be able to use Magical Training to get rid of that dead Wizard level and still use Arcane Disciple, but I'm not sure how those feats interact. If shadow miracles are too cheesy for you, you can dump arcane disciple altogether and still use this to cast Gate (transportation only), Contingency, and other goodies.

[Pex]

With high level play I feel this deep sense of detachment from the way that the physical world doesn't really matter anymore. Mountain range between you and your destination? Just teleport. Or destroy the mountain. Or shift it to another plane. The player is so godlike that it's hard for me to be impressed by anything they do, since it all falls so far within their range of abilities.




How, please.

I get teleport, but how does a high level character destroy a mountain or shift it to another plane?

[Emperor Tippy]

I get teleport, but how does a high level character destroy a mountain or shift it to another plane?

Shapechange into a Zodar, use Wish (Su) to create a scroll of Animate Object at an absurd CL (ten trillion or so should be good), Shapechange into a Lilitu, use Item Use (Ex) to activate your Animate Object scroll and turn the mountain into an Animated Object, Shapechange into a Beholder, order your Animated Object to fail its save, hit it with a Disintegrate Eye Ray.

The mountain is now a handful of dust.

The last step can be replaced with Polymorph Any Object to turn it into a pebble (same or lower intelligence, same Kingdom and Class, means permanent duration) so that you can now carry a whole mountain around in your pocket. Or PAO it into helium gas (by the time the PAO wears off the mountain will be diffused in the upper atmosphere and over a very large area).

If you want to plane shift it then just cast Plane Shift instead. As a creature you can transport the mountain without a problem (or teleport it).

This is one method, numerous other methods exist.

[Kiero]

If you're only considering how your character can no longer progress past 6th level (in the usual way) then you've completely missed the point of E6. The critical thing is no one else can either.

That means a fundamental change in the way the world works, compared to standard D&D assumptions. The world is no longer the oyster of plane-hopping archmage NPCs who the PCs have to tread carefully around. In short order the PCs are the big movers and shakers, people to be reckoned with.

E6 is the only way I'd even consider going near 3.x, I'm certainly never going to jump on board the LFQW-train that is the original un-capped version.

[Mighty_Chicken]

If your problem with E6 is that you specifically like power gaming there are indeed less options for you and there isn't much to be done about it.

About the other issues:

Not leveling up: The problem with "vertical" progression is that it's just an arm's race. You get +1 to hit, your foes get +1 AC. You get more HD, your foes deal more damage. But as you "advance", you're farer and farer away from the fantasy literature that inspires D&D.

The coolest thing about leveling up is getting cooler and cooler abilities. This already can be done by "standard" E6 rules.

But if you want a "diagonal" rather than an "horizontal" progression, check my E6 proggression (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289703) homebrew.


The thing is though, I don't think that D&D is simulationist enough for that as a system. Everything is just much too abstract for me to get that feeling from it.

Well, have you tried using 2d10 instead of 1d20 for skills? 3d6 is too radically bell-curved; but 2d10 is very random, but consistent enough to simulate pretty elegantly how skilled people are better than amateurs. My players like it.

I think D&D's DCs are actually pretty good at simulationism. Like, really hard stuff can be done by 2nd level specialists. The problem is that it can't be done consistently.

And a "high level" E6 campaign (I mean, 20+ feats) probably doesn't feel "realistic" or gritty, but heroic and (as GURPS labels it) cinematographic. The power level would be something between LotR movie and golden age superheroes.

[Hyena]

Oh no, I don't hate it. I love it - in fact, after trying E6 out, I won't DM any other type of game anymore. Thanks to E6, I can run urban campaigns with mostly humanoid enemies and down-to-earth goals.

[AlltheBooks]

I like E6 and E8. Been playing coming up on 20 years and competently DMing a post 13-14 lvl game get's difficult as I prefer sandbox style settings. I have clever and ambitious players, things get a little crazy.

The players themselves have expressed that life is not giving adequate time to properly play high level and I agree. We're not Tippy level but close and that needs homework for those of us with average minds.

Right now the consensus is E8, we'll give that a swing and see what we get out of it. Currently going over some PrC's to adapt as classes themselves. Should be fun!

[Coidzor]

E6, like cookies, is a sometimes food. Level 21+ play is also a sometimes food.

Shadowrun is a sometimes food. D&D 3.5 is a sometimes food. World of Darkness is a sometimes food.

[Zanos]

I don't like E6 because getting new spells/maneuvers/cool class abilities as I level up is great, and most feats don't really come with stuff that's as cool as the next spell level or prestige class level or maneuver or whatever.

I typically prefer higher level of play though where the characters walk the planes to do...whatever, I guess. I have a level 12 wizard right now I'm trying to build up to create his own flying city and I really don't think that's possible in E6.

[Emperor Tippy]

I have a level 12 wizard right now I'm trying to build up to create his own flying city and I really don't think that's possible in E6.

Well it technically is, but only by utterly shattering the spirit of E6. You can gain the ability to cast every arcane spell, divine spell, and psionic power in the game at ECL 6 if you really, really, want to.

[zeboss]

High levels are nice and all but it really is just droning combat where someone his the do x amount of damage, opponent survives and returns fire, with no variation or difference.

I disagree, I feel like combat at lower levels experience much less variation and is just the same "I attack with my greatsword" and "I use magic missle" over and over again

[Zanos]

Well it technically is, but only by utterly shattering the spirit of E6. You can gain the ability to cast every arcane spell, divine spell, and psionic power in the game at ECL 6 if you really, really, want to.
What's possible by RAW and what I'm willing to do to my DM are different, yeah. He's a nice guy and probably didn't deserve it when I magic jar'd his boss monster he probably spent about an hour making.
I am curious about this method, though.

[Legendxp]

Am I the only guy here that has no idea what E6 is?:smallconfused: If it's just starting out at level 6, I don't mind. In fact my favorite levels to play are 6-10.

[Zanos]

Am I the only guy here that has no idea what E6 is?:smallconfused: If it's just starting out at level 6, I don't mind. In fact my favorite levels to play are 6-10.
You can start at any level, but the premise is that you stop leveling at level 6, and afterwards you gain a bonus feat every 5000 exp you acquire, which allows you to specialize or become more versatile through printed feats and a handful of feats added specifically for E6.

It does have a number of advantages, but isn't the kind of game I like to play.

[Zubrowka74]

I want the high numbers.

Then just multiply all the numbers by over 9 000 like they did in the latest D&D MMO.

[Talya]

Variety is the spice of gaming.

I don't have an issue with E6. As far as character options go, well, spellcasters and martial adepts tend to have more options than fighters. Surprise, it works the same way as regular d20 does!

E6 will not really be any more boring. There ARE, to my mind, issues with the number of options available in one's builds...certain concepts are harder to ever bring online, certain PrCs you can't even ever get into.

[dspeyer]

I don't like E6 because getting new spells/maneuvers/cool class abilities as I level up is great, and most feats don't really come with stuff that's as cool as the next spell level or prestige class level or maneuver or whatever.

Seems like E6 should work decently for that, assuming there's no limit on how many Martial Studies or Extra Spells Knowns you can take.

[Zanos]

Seems like E6 should work decently for that, assuming there's no limit on how many Martial Studies or Extra Spells Knowns you can take.
I should have said spell level/manuever level, I suppose. Wasn't entirely clear.

[Legendxp]

Is E6 from a book? Or was it just an idea that someone put together? Also, is it possible to play an E8 variant or an E16 variant?

[cakellene]

Seems like E6 should work decently for that, assuming there's no limit on how many Martial Studies or Extra Spells Knowns you can take.

Martial Study can only be taken 3 times, unless you meant a houseruled version of it.

[Nihilarian]

E6 is completely unofficial, started on the internet.

E8 is a widely accepted variant of E6, for when you want just a little bit more powerful options available.

IMO, once you get into E9 and higher you've missed the point.

I'd love to play E6 sometime, never had a chance to.

[nedz]

Is E6 from a book? Or was it just an idea that someone put together? Also, is it possible to play an E8 variant or an E16 variant?

E6 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D)

..........

[Legendxp]

Man, I'm completely shocked that I've never heard of this before! This sound like fun, I think I'll start trying it out with my playgroup. Is there a link to a handbook or a rules section?

EDIT: Nevermind, lol:smallbiggrin:

[Gnorman]

Oh man an E6 thread! I think I'm contractually obligated to comment!

It should be somewhat obvious at this point that E6 is my bread and butter, not only in playstyle, but in design. I'd be echoing a lot of points already made if I ran down the detailed list of why I love it, so I'll refrain. But I will say this: E6 makes characters more believable, encounters more exciting, and, perhaps most importantly of all, bookkeeping more manageable.

It's not for everyone - many people enjoy managing a larger list of spells and abilities. I understand that completely! I love a high-level game on occasion too (after all, I can't pull off the Malconvoker in an E6 game, which is my favorite all-time prestige class).

4th level spells aren't terribly game-breaking as long as you stay away from the big ones: Polymorph, Enervation, Black Tentacles, Lesser Planar Ally, etc.. I gave my E6 classes a single daily use of a 4th level spell as a capstone, and it's worked out pretty well. Of course, if you're going to do so, you're going to have to give the non-spellcasting-classes a nice shiny new toy at level 6, too, or otherwise it's just not fair. But if you want to move beyond E6, there's nothing really wrong with E8 either.

E10, on the other hand, I start to balk at. It's the 5th level spells that are really narrative- breaking: Teleport. Lesser Planar Binding. Raise Dead. Contact Other Plane. Sending. Awaken. Commune. Plane Shift. True Seeing. Some of these are more dangerous than others, but they all break down or trivialize obstacles that work better as the objects of quests and adventures.

[Ansem]

I like 6E, but it depends on DM and campaign.
Same reason D&D is not fit for a Warhammer 40k campaign.

I ran a 6E campaign in which I sort of ported the Jak & Daxter games and let the party run through that, having them use their abilities and wits and keeping enemies always as a threat. City guards are a pain in the ass both beginning and end, since they're also trained warriors and you're not all demi-deities like in regular D&D.

Again, depends on DM and concept. The fact you hate it is probably the fact you either played or wrong with a wrong campaign idea or DM or can't build decent low-level characters and rely on high level game.

[Scow2]

Don't forget! High-level spells and effects still exist in e6, but not as daily spells.. instead, they're expensive and time-consuming rituals!

Also, you can always homebrew new "Epic" feats for E6 to keep the lateral progression.

[Ansem]

You still gain levels, just not the benefit of leveling in classes themselves, but you still gain feats etc, which you can use to purchase class features.
Also PrC's are easier to enter in and can net you a level or two extra (weird rules...)

[Alabenson]

Frankly, I have yet to see a single argument in favor of E6 that would interest me in playing it. The bookkeeping of playing a higher level character doesn't bother me in the slightest, in my experience the gap between spellcasters and non-spellcasters isn't nearly as wide as many claim, and most importantly I don't play DnD because I want to play something "gritty" or "believable".
To me, E6 makes characters less exciting, campaigns less epic, and the game itself less engaging.

[Powerfamiliar]

I personally love E6. The stories you can tell with it are more appealing to me as a player/dm/reader. And I find high level DnD/PF combat is such a convoluted mess.

I feel it grants more continuity to the characters and the world. There is character growth, both story wise and rules wise (feats/wealth/etc.), but it's not like in 3.5/PF were it's hard to recognize a PC after a few months of game time.

I can enjoy both forms of DnD. Plane hoping high level play , were you can take down entire armies, and the balance of the universe is in your hands is pretty fun. But so is a game where you work you way up in a smaller nation, to where you can have continent/world spanning power, but you are still very mortal. In the end I enjoy both but the simplicity and groundedness of E6 make it my favorite ruleset.

I think E6 is also very good at modelling movies/books, were high level DnD can't because the player just would not be challenged by the main conflict of most movies or books. Sometimes I feel like high level DnD adventures struggle to account for PC abilities like horror/slasher movies struggle to account for cell phones.

Also I just posted a few of my E6 houserules for comment in the homebrew forum. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318235).

[Talya]

See, I understand that.

However, I'd say that when I most want to use PF, it's when the campaign wouldn't have gotten much past 7th level even if it weren't E6.

"Why?, doesn't that make E6 redundant?"

No. The point is I might want to play a lower level game, but still have the players become the biggest, baddest big-damn-hero baddasses in the setting. With E6, your level 6 characters are awesome. The problem with a world that isn't E6, if you're not hitting high levels, is you were still nobodies by the time the campaign ended.

[Coidzor]

Again, depends on DM and concept. The fact you hate it is probably the fact you either played or wrong with a wrong campaign idea or DM or can't build decent low-level characters and rely on high level game.

Seemed more like a case of burnout from overuse and only ever playing E6 from the OP, I don't see why you felt it necessary to start out with the assumption that they somehow can't build a competent low-level character.

Or, indeed, the idea that somehow building high level characters is easier. :smallconfused:

[Seerow]

I'm a big fence sitter in this argument.

I've always been a fan of the general concept, for people who enjoy the lower powered campaigns. Sure there's ways to get around it (as Tippy has been pointing out throughout the thread), but for the most part if you don't press too hard, E6 works well.

Now the last two campaigns I've played in over the last year and a half or so have been E6 campaigns. This has somewhat colored my view of it, because my personal preferred sweet spot is in the 8-14 range. E6 to me has felt like it cuts off just a little too early, because I like prestige classes, and with E6 you're pretty much only getting one level in most of them, or can't enter at all. And if you multiclass at all, you lock yourself out of the capstone feats, which is a pain.

I guess what I'm saying is, I like the idea in concept. I like that it works for people who are happy with that power level. I am not a big fan of the execution at that power level, though most of my complaints come from it being designed as something simple and easy to implement (as opposed to a source book with hundreds of options/conversions to make progressing your character at level 6 more interesting).


That said, I want to see it expanded upon. Maybe not as E6. But I would love to see a system along the lines of 4e, where you have clearly delineated tiers, and groups who get to the threshold between tiers can choose to either keep going as they have been, or ascend to the next tier. Bonus points if it ties into fluff somehow and include epic deeds as a requirement to transition between the tiers.

[Emperor Tippy]

I actually like an E6 variant where at every 6,000 XP above 6th level you get to gestalt in one level.

So you are, say, a Fighter 6. You gain 6,000 XP and are now a Fighter 6//Monk 1. So when you are 36,000 XP above the 15,000 needed for level 6 you are an X 6// Y 6. You get to gestalt in another class like this continuously as you gain XP.

So theoretically, if you earned a few hundred thousand XP, you could end up with the first six levels of every base class in the game gestalted together.

[Seerow]

I actually like an E6 variant where at every 6,000 XP above 6th level you get to gestalt in one level.

So you are, say, a Fighter 6. You gain 6,000 XP and are now a Fighter 6//Monk 1. So when you are 36,000 XP above the 15,000 needed for level 6 you are an X 6// Y 6. You get to gestalt in another class like this continuously as you gain XP.

So theoretically, if you earned a few hundred thousand XP, you could end up with the first six levels of every base class in the game gestalted together.

Is this in addition to feats, or in place of? Or is it something you spend exp on (ie choose if you want a feat, or a new level's worth of class features)?

In addition to seems like it would accelarate growth too much; but in place of stunts growth options and a feat for 5000 vs a level for 6000 is hard to judge (in some cases, really awesome deal. If you're going for fighter though, it's a pretty raw deal).

Also would it work for gestalting in prestige classes?

[Gnorman]

One option, though it requires homebrew work, is to simply make a 3-level version of your favorite prestige class, scaling it down to E6 level. Or you could gestalt them in as per Tippy's method. I can imagine it would get very confusing very quickly, though.

[Emperor Tippy]

Is this in addition to feats, or in place of? Or is it something you spend exp on (ie choose if you want a feat, or a new level's worth of class features)?

In addition to seems like it would accelarate growth too much; but in place of stunts growth options and a feat for 5000 vs a level for 6000 is hard to judge (in some cases, really awesome deal. If you're going for fighter though, it's a pretty raw deal).

Also would it work for gestalting in prestige classes?

In addition to. The thing is that once you have a class that gives a d12 HD, no other level is ever going to give you more HP. Once you have a class that gives you 8 skill points per level, no other class is going to give you more skill points, etc.

And just like normal gestalt you can pick any PrC that you manage to qualify for although you still have to keep all of the PrC's levels on one "side" and have to qualify for the PrC at the "level" that you are first taking it. So no taking 6 levels of a PrC that requires 8 ranks in a skill to get into but you could take one the first level in such a PrC as the 6th level on one "side" of the gestalt.

The DM could, of course, allow you to handle PrC's differently but that significantly ups the power level.

[prufock]

Disregarding a few variations, E6 is basically just playing a low level game. If you play a campaign that never goes beyond level 6, it's essentially the same thing. So do you hate low-level games?

Personally, I like the idea, simply for variety. I've played enough open-ended level games, the idea of a setting that is more gritty appeals to me.

[Gnorman]

Come to think of it, wasn't someone writing E6 adaptations of popular prestige classes on this board?

EDIT: Only for the Master of Shrouds so far, though. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309860)

[Powerfamiliar]

You can also just make PrCs epic feat chains. It won't always work, but for many PrC abilities it works very well.

[Flickerdart]

Disregarding a few variations, E6 is basically just playing a low level game. If you play a campaign that never goes beyond level 6, it's essentially the same thing. So do you hate low-level games?

Personally, I like the idea, simply for variety. I've played enough open-ended level games, the idea of a setting that is more gritty appeals to me.
E6 is better than a simple low level game for one specific reason - the hard cap on vertical progression encourages horizontal progression. Once there are no more feats that reinforce your primary thing you have to start taking feats that do something else, and so can actually end up with a well-rounded and competent adventurer type that actually has level-appropriate numbers.

[Seerow]

Yeah if homebrew were an option, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. Unfortunately my group tends to run with homebrew only if I'm the one DMing, and if I'm DMing I'm not running E6 so...

(Yeah don't ask me how "No homebrew" works alongside "We're going to run an unofficial variant of this game". It was hard enough getting them to accept that yes, the capstone feats and stuff like letting the cleric blow a feat on picking up restoration is worth it, and those were included in the initial write up of the variant!)

[Gnorman]

Just tell them that the official thread was updated, and the new classes are "core" now.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Disregarding a few variations, E6 is basically just playing a low level game. If you play a campaign that never goes beyond level 6, it's essentially the same thing. So do you hate low-level games?

That's not true for one very simple reason. No one in the world is of a level higher than level 6, period. There are no Elminsters or Khelben the Black Staffs or anyone else that so completely outclasses most of the rest of the world as to be completely unapproachable by most of the world.

[Scow2]

That's not true for one very simple reason. No one in the world is of a level higher than level 6, period. There are no Elminsters or Khelben the Black Staffs or anyone else that so completely outclasses most of the rest of the world as to be completely unapproachable by most of the world.
Well... except monsters. There are still CR 20 monsters and the like. But they're as rare as they should be, instead of 5 Tarrasques a Day at level 22

[Coidzor]

That said, I want to see it expanded upon. Maybe not as E6. But I would love to see a system along the lines of 4e, where you have clearly delineated tiers, and groups who get to the threshold between tiers can choose to either keep going as they have been, or ascend to the next tier. Bonus points if it ties into fluff somehow and include epic deeds as a requirement to transition between the tiers.

Agreed. I once started playing around with the idea of a world where most people are locked into E6 with a rare few being more along the lines of E10 or E12(never decided which) and legendary heroes and the like making it out of the E12 region to the normal level cap of 20 and so on.

I quickly realized I had neither the homebrewing experience or understanding of game design necessary to make it anything but cludgy though.

[Seerow]

Agreed. I once started playing around with the idea of a world where most people are locked into E6 with a rare few being more along the lines of E10 or E12(never decided which) and legendary heroes and the like making it out of the E12 region to the normal level cap of 20 and so on.

I quickly realized I had neither the homebrewing experience or understanding of game design necessary to make it anything but cludgy though.

Yeah, doing something like that isn't something I'd want to do with 3.5. I mean, you could, but it's just going to be weird and cludgy. If you were going to do it right, you want to do it with a new system built from the ground up with that in mind.

[Gnorman]

Agreed. I once started playing around with the idea of a world where most people are locked into E6 with a rare few being more along the lines of E10 or E12(never decided which) and legendary heroes and the like making it out of the E12 region to the normal level cap of 20 and so on.

I quickly realized I had neither the homebrewing experience or understanding of game design necessary to make it anything but cludgy though.

See, the problem with making this kind of world is that by 10th level, adventurers can go on extended field trips to the Abyss. There's nothing keeping them in the world. The hypothetical narrative level afforded by higher level spells and abilities extends far beyond the narrative level conceived of by most campaign settings (which tend to focus on one "world").

20th level characters are astral projecting throughout the multiverse while their bodies are kept safe in stasis on a demiplane of their own creation. It's hard to write a compelling challenge for that.

[Seerow]

See, the problem with making this kind of world is that by 10th level, adventurers can go on extended field trips to the Abyss. There's nothing keeping them in the world. The hypothetical narrative level afforded by higher level spells and abilities extends far beyond the narrative level conceived of by most campaign settings (which tend to focus on one "world").

20th level characters are astral projecting throughout the multiverse while their bodies are kept safe in stasis on a demiplane of their own creation. It's hard to write a compelling challenge for that.

That sort of thing is actually the point though.

Progressing from the E6 tier to the E12 tier isn't just a cosmetic shift. It's a fundamental shift in the gameplay, how parties operate, and what sorts of things effect them. The difference between a 12th and 20th level character in terms of capability, setting, and threats is similarly huge.

Ideally in a game designed for such divides, you'd have a set of certain types of abilities that start cropping up first at the low end of that tier, and by the high end of it are prevalent. At level 6, you are not teleporting much of anywhere, not even through a door or whatever. At level 7 you see the occasional teleport, but most are limited. By level 12-13, things with long range teleport at will are commonplace, and just about everyone would have access to it in some form. Anything that can't deal with that by level 13-14 really just should not exist.

The trick is that you can't just say that about teleport though. You have to figure out what tier just about every major defining and game changing ability falls under, and carefully control which range it falls under.

[Emperor Tippy]

Agreed. I once started playing around with the idea of a world where most people are locked into E6 with a rare few being more along the lines of E10 or E12(never decided which) and legendary heroes and the like making it out of the E12 region to the normal level cap of 20 and so on.

I quickly realized I had neither the homebrewing experience or understanding of game design necessary to make it anything but cludgy though.

I would actually handle that as mostly a plot point.

Individuals of PC races are pretty much inherently limited to 6 HD. Their bodies simply can't handle channeling more magic (in the case of casters) and their souls aren't strong enough to tell the laws of reality to take a flying leap and let their flesh becomes strong enough to find swimming in lava nothing more than a bracing experience.

That being said, there exist rare and esoteric methods to break past those boundaries. Maybe you need to eat the heart of a Young Adult Red Dragon, or the special blessing of a deity, or to touch a specific artifact, or to conduct a pilgrimage to a dozen different shrines. Whatever it is, make it rare and a suitably legendary feat (and probably specific to that character, like maybe the Psion figures out how to create a one shot Thought Bottle and develop a ritual to turn himself into an Elan, which he does before using his Thought Bottle to regain his memories and now his body can handle channeling far more psionic energy than a human body ever could while the Wizard figures out how to sustain himself on negative energy and becomes a Necropolitan).

Once the PC's hit level 12 they run into another limit. Perhaps where the last limit was one of the flesh, this is a limit of the soul. A human soul (or whatever species the PC's are) can only provide so much power and to become more powerful instead of just more skilled at using what power they already have the PC's need to find a way to become more. Again its a whole big adventure/quest of epic proportions (we are talking stuff like needing the souls of LG, LE, CG, and CE outsiders of at least 18 HD for each PC so that they can supercharge their souls without tainting themselves with one extreme or the other). If they manage that then they can reach up to level 18. To go beyond this point an individual needs the divine spark. They don't have to be a demigod but they have to have the inherent potential to be one. Unfortunately the PC's aren't natively blessed with the divine spark so they have to go on another big and epic adventure/quest to find some way to gain the divine spark (this is where you get pesky little things like sacrificing ten thousand individuals and using their souls as a power source for your to consume, taking the miniscule ember of the divine that is in everybody and making it part of you, or track down and capture a demigod to rip the spark out of, or do some quest for a greater deity that is of sufficient worth that they will gift you with potential god hood as your reward).

And after that big epic quest the PC's become able to reach (theoretically) any level or even (theoretically) become an actual demigod and progress up the divine ladder.

Of course, by this point the PC's aren't hanging out on the Prime Material much as they are seen very much as physical gods (think the Tribunal from Morrowind).

Basically, don't do this based on rules do it based on plot and fluff.

[Gnorman]

That sort of thing is actually the point though.

Progressing from the E6 tier to the E12 tier isn't just a cosmetic shift. It's a fundamental shift in the gameplay, how parties operate, and what sorts of things effect them. The difference between a 12th and 20th level character in terms of capability, setting, and threats is similarly huge.

Ideally in a game designed for such divides, you'd have a set of certain types of abilities that start cropping up first at the low end of that tier, and by the high end of it are prevalent. At level 6, you are not teleporting much of anywhere, not even through a door or whatever. At level 7 you see the occasional teleport, but most are limited. By level 12-13, things with long range teleport at will are commonplace, and just about everyone would have access to it in some form. Anything that can't deal with that by level 13-14 really just should not exist.

The trick is that you can't just say that about teleport though. You have to figure out what tier just about every major defining and game changing ability falls under, and carefully control which range it falls under.

I agree fundamentally with your characterization of the shift. That's why I think it is difficult to design a single "world" for high level campaigns. Obviously, you'll have a few big-ticket locations: the red dragon's volcano lair, the lich's hidden tomb, the rift to the Abyss. But a 12th-level adventurer isn't going to be spending time worrying about the orcish hordes, or the roving packs of gnolls. He's moved on to bigger and brighter things. Hence plane-hopping.

Really, D&D has three fundamental tiers:

1-8: Mostly beholden to narrative restrictions - can't come back from the dead, can't teleport, can't speak directly with deities.

9-15: Capable of kicking most narrative restrictions in the crotch and running past them really fast.

16+: What's a narrative restriction?

[Zanos]

Teleport doesn't really break the game open at level 9. There are no scrying spells that are sufficient to study an area for you to become familiar enough to teleport to it, and plane shift is liable to dump you somewhere rather unpleasant. I guess people don't have to buy carts to transport things back from dungeons and can just sort of leave when they're done, but they still have to pass through the forest of tentacle monsters to get to the cave of haven't been there before.

Greater Teleport breaks any sort of transportation limit over it's knee, though.

[NichG]

See, the problem with making this kind of world is that by 10th level, adventurers can go on extended field trips to the Abyss. There's nothing keeping them in the world. The hypothetical narrative level afforded by higher level spells and abilities extends far beyond the narrative level conceived of by most campaign settings (which tend to focus on one "world").

20th level characters are astral projecting throughout the multiverse while their bodies are kept safe in stasis on a demiplane of their own creation. It's hard to write a compelling challenge for that.

Well, you can, but the issue isn't making the challenge in the first place, its making the challenge continue to be compelling the 20th time it happens.

For example:


The fabric of the planes themselves is being unwoven by the creation of a Conflict Paradox - the collision between two opposed cosmic absolutes - by a Guvner working on Mechanus, under the secret influence of the Yuguloths. Due to the ongoing conflict between the Immovable Object and the Irresistable Force, other planar rules are breaking down. The Astral Plane is ringing with the destruction of small prime worlds, sacrificed in the probability convolutions induced by this event.

The party must make it to the epicenter of the nascent paradox and must resolve the impossibility. This adventure will take them beyond the limits of matter and energy, through realms of pure thought, where they must craft the understanding of the ur-consciousness that underlies all of creation in order to re-define the meaning of the cosmic absolutes in conflict.


Sounds epic enough, astral projecting from a private demiplane won't help you considering they're collapsing like soap bubbles all throughout, the backlash due to coming into contact with the Conflict Paradox would pop whatever demiplane the character's body was protected by, and there are effects zinging about that don't just kill the target, they redefine or rewrite them out of existence.

But if this is 'what we're doing today', and every session brings another epic cosmic conflict, the players will quickly start to ask 'what the hell is wrong with this multiverse?'.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, doing something like that isn't something I'd want to do with 3.5. I mean, you could, but it's just going to be weird and cludgy. If you were going to do it right, you want to do it with a new system built from the ground up with that in mind.

Yeah, sorry for leaving that out, that's basically what I realized. Either one would have to re-write 3.5 to the extent it wasn't 3.5 anymore or build something from scratch.... preferably from scratch...

And considering that I can't even remember all of the points I need to hit with the flavor text for a Prestige Class offhand, I decided to table that until I felt confident about embarking upon such a massive project.

[Seerow]

Well, you can, but the issue isn't making the challenge in the first place, its making the challenge continue to be compelling the 20th time it happens.

For example:


The fabric of the planes themselves is being unwoven by the creation of a Conflict Paradox - the collision between two opposed cosmic absolutes - by a Guvner working on Mechanus, under the secret influence of the Yuguloths. Due to the ongoing conflict between the Immovable Object and the Irresistable Force, other planar rules are breaking down. The Astral Plane is ringing with the destruction of small prime worlds, sacrificed in the probability convolutions induced by this event.

The party must make it to the epicenter of the nascent paradox and must resolve the impossibility. This adventure will take them beyond the limits of matter and energy, through realms of pure thought, where they must craft the understanding of the ur-consciousness that underlies all of creation in order to re-define the meaning of the cosmic absolutes in conflict.


Sounds epic enough, astral projecting from a private demiplane won't help you considering they're collapsing like soap bubbles all throughout, the backlash due to coming into contact with the Conflict Paradox would pop whatever demiplane the character's body was protected by, and there are effects zinging about that don't just kill the target, they redefine or rewrite them out of existence.

But if this is 'what we're doing today', and every session brings another epic cosmic conflict, the players will quickly start to ask 'what the hell is wrong with this multiverse?'.

Yeah, past a certain point one of a few things is happening:
1) Multiverse level threats happen so regularly the players get fed up with it just because it makes no sense.

2) PCs spend decades, centuries, or millenia between adventures. Your only long-running NPC figures are gods and the like. Even then this will start to feel like 1, simply because stating "500 years pass" doesn't change the fact that you did this last sunday.

3) The epic level characters get retired, you start over playing at a lower power level after a big epic adventure, and after a suitable amount of time IRL passes, when you get the itch for that kind of big thing again, then you switch back.

[Scow2]

But if this is 'what we're doing today', and every session brings another epic cosmic conflict, the players will quickly start to ask 'what the hell is wrong with this multiverse?'.

The answer, of course, is "This is how it's always been. What, you thought you'd get to be all-powerful with no responsibility when you hit these levels? The world is always doomed - or would be, if it weren't for mighty heroes such as your party."

There is only one difference between the Cosmic Horror and Heroic Fantasy genres - the ability to fight the Encroaching Doom off.

[prufock]

E6 is better than a simple low level game for one specific reason - the hard cap on vertical progression encourages horizontal progression. Once there are no more feats that reinforce your primary thing you have to start taking feats that do something else, and so can actually end up with a well-rounded and competent adventurer type that actually has level-appropriate numbers.
True, but that only happens once you progress beyond level 6. From levels 1 to 6, it's virtually identical. It's entirely possible to have both a low-level game and an E6 game that cut off at level 6 or lower.


That's not true for one very simple reason. No one in the world is of a level higher than level 6, period. There are no Elminsters or Khelben the Black Staffs or anyone else that so completely outclasses most of the rest of the world as to be completely unapproachable by most of the world.
Any low-level campaign could be set up this way (entirely setting-specific), without the addition of E6 rules. Playing an E6 campaign and playing a low-level campaign where you never encounter anyone above level 6 are really no different. What E6 does is make this an explicit rule rather than a setting decision.

[TuggyNE]

The answer, of course, is "This is how it's always been. What, you thought you'd get to be all-powerful with no responsibility when you hit these levels? The world is always doomed - or would be, if it weren't for mighty heroes such as your party."

There is only one difference between the Cosmic Horror and Heroic Fantasy genres - the ability to fight the Encroaching Doom off.

The only difference between that and CoC is cosmetic: in one case, you can beat back the threat temporarily over and over again (if you're lucky), and in the other, you can beat it for good but then another threat comes up.

So no, that's a bad definition. Rather, heroic fantasy is about being able to actually fix things, instead of negotiating a ceasefire that will last for all of a hundred years before plunging everything into existential danger once more. There might be more than one such threat, but only at extremely irregular intervals, and such threats are not at all common — in fact, they should probably be countable on one hand.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Any low-level campaign could be set up this way (entirely setting-specific), without the addition of E6 rules. Playing an E6 campaign and playing a low-level campaign where you never encounter anyone above level 6 are really no different. What E6 does is make this an explicit rule rather than a setting decision.

But without it being an explicit rule you also have to set things such that any magic item that would be crafted by a higher level character aren't around either, no +3 weapons or armor, no staves of any kind, no magical rings, and so on and so forth. This will beg the question from the players, "hey? Why is it that there's no high-end magical gear in this world that's been populated by wizards and clerics and such for millenia?"

If you just say, "it's an E6 game," then they know that those things don't exist because they can't. It also tells them that high CR creatures won't be something you can buy your way around without having to ask those same questions.

My point is that you -can- setup the game as a normal, low-level game with these assumptions that you'll have to explain but simply declaring it an E6 game is immensely quicker, easier, and less difficult.

[Pex]

I agree fundamentally with your characterization of the shift. That's why I think it is difficult to design a single "world" for high level campaigns. Obviously, you'll have a few big-ticket locations: the red dragon's volcano lair, the lich's hidden tomb, the rift to the Abyss. But a 12th-level adventurer isn't going to be spending time worrying about the orcish hordes, or the roving packs of gnolls. He's moved on to bigger and brighter things. Hence plane-hopping.

Really, D&D has three fundamental tiers:

1-8: Mostly beholden to narrative restrictions - can't come back from the dead, can't teleport, can't speak directly with deities.

9-15: Capable of kicking most narrative restrictions in the crotch and running past them really fast.

16+: What's a narrative restriction?

Just because you don't like plane hopping, PCs moving beyond worrying about orcs, teleporting to get to where the adventure is instead of having to guard the caravan for passage, doesn't mean no else is allowed to either.

Preferring to play E6 doesn't make you a better class of gamer.

[awa]

i may be mistaken by i don't see any of those sentiments in the post you have quoted

[Lord Vukodlak]

i may be mistaken by i don't see any of those sentiments in the post you have quoted

I don't believe you are, perhaps Pex in projecting his own subconscious feelings onto Gnorman. Or he's simply getting that sentiment from others and taking it out on someone else.

[Gnorman]

Just because you don't like plane hopping, PCs moving beyond worrying about orcs, teleporting to get to where the adventure is instead of having to guard the caravan for passage, doesn't mean no else is allowed to either.

Preferring to play E6 doesn't make you a better class of gamer.

I didn't mean to imply anything of the kind, and I apologize if I inadvertently did.

I like plane-hopping adventures as much as the next player, and there is definitely a place for them. I'm just saying that it's harder to limit adventurers to the Prime at higher levels. Localized threats become harder to plan, and the stakes may feel lower. Traditional fantasy narratives like "scrappy band of adventurers succeeds against a tyrannical emperor" have to change a bit to succeed. The tyrannical emperor has to become Asmodeus, for example.

[Scow2]

The only difference between that and CoC is cosmetic: in one case, you can beat back the threat temporarily over and over again (if you're lucky), and in the other, you can beat it for good but then another threat comes up.

So no, that's a bad definition. Rather, heroic fantasy is about being able to actually fix things, instead of negotiating a ceasefire that will last for all of a hundred years before plunging everything into existential danger once more. There might be more than one such threat, but only at extremely irregular intervals, and such threats are not at all common — in fact, they should probably be countable on one hand.In cosmic horror, the more you beat the threat back, the faster it encroaches.

In heroic fantasy, you DO actually fix a problem permanently, but a new one will always be along, and the adventures never end!

[Thurbane]

I've never played an E6 game, but I've been very keen to.

The only drawback that jumps immediately to mind for me personally is Binders - without houseruling, you'll never get to bind two vestiges at once, which is a huge chunk of the fun for the class. Mix-n-matching vestiges is the Binder's meat and potatoes.

[Coidzor]

But without it being an explicit rule you also have to set things such that any magic item that would be crafted by a higher level character aren't around either, no +3 weapons or armor, no staves of any kind, no magical rings, and so on and so forth. This will beg the question from the players, "hey? Why is it that there's no high-end magical gear in this world that's been populated by wizards and clerics and such for millenia?"

If you just say, "it's an E6 game," then they know that those things don't exist because they can't. It also tells them that high CR creatures won't be something you can buy your way around without having to ask those same questions.

My point is that you -can- setup the game as a normal, low-level game with these assumptions that you'll have to explain but simply declaring it an E6 game is immensely quicker, easier, and less difficult.

I've never quite understood the apparent hatred for rings, I must admit. It's the most non sequitur to me of all of the things that seem to surround E6. :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've never quite understood the apparent hatred for rings, I must admit. It's the most non sequitur to me of all of the things that seem to surround E6. :smallconfused:

It's the caster level requirement. Caster level 15 to take forge ring. It's well outside the bounds of what's possible in E6 unless your DM happens to like midgard dwarves, a creature from frostburn.

[Coidzor]

It's the caster level requirement. Caster level 15 to take forge ring. It's well outside the bounds of what's possible in E6 unless your DM happens to like midgard dwarves, a creature from frostburn.

Oh, I know about the feat's issues. I'm talking about the issue with rings themselves. The way most people talk about them, that's their issue, like the rings an E6 group would run across if rings existed would be horribly OP, not the wonkiness of feat prerequisites breaking the setting due to not getting adapted by the rest of the E6 adaptation.

[Thurbane]

My advice to people who enjoy more powerful characters of 7th level plus? Don't play E6. :smallwink:

I don't enjoy foreign art films, and therefore tend not to go see them at the cinema. :smalltongue:

...if you are stuck with one gaming group who are fixated with only playing E6, then I can see where it might be a little more problematic.

[Ansem]

I agree fundamentally with your characterization of the shift. That's why I think it is difficult to design a single "world" for high level campaigns. Obviously, you'll have a few big-ticket locations: the red dragon's volcano lair, the lich's hidden tomb, the rift to the Abyss. But a 12th-level adventurer isn't going to be spending time worrying about the orcish hordes, or the roving packs of gnolls. He's moved on to bigger and brighter things. Hence plane-hopping.

Really, D&D has three fundamental tiers:

1-8: Mostly beholden to narrative restrictions - can't come back from the dead, can't teleport, can't speak directly with deities.

9-15: Capable of kicking most narrative restrictions in the crotch and running past them really fast.

16+: What's a narrative restriction?
http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/reincarnate--2862/ fixes that first one, 1.2k to be resurrect with a chance of it being into a race for no LA is pretty sweet.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I've never quite understood the apparent hatred for rings, I must admit. It's the most non sequitur to me of all of the things that seem to surround E6Probably because there is no hatred towards rings in E6. I haven't seen it in an E6 thread. What people hate is when you artificially boost your caster level to 15 in an E6 game.


My point is that you -can- setup the game as a normal, low-level game with these assumptions that you'll have to explain but simply declaring it an E6 game is immensely quicker, easier, and less difficult.
Well yes if you keep forge ring's caster level requirement at 15 then you can't simply surprise a party that hey its E6 as someone might try and buy a ring of protection +1.

While the feat normally requires a high caster level there are plenty of rings whose caster level is 6th or below and those really shouldn't disrupt an E6 campaign. I've seen forge ring on more then a few E6 feat lists available as a cap stone.

My own E6 rules allow a for 6th+ level character to take forge ring if they've already taken Craft Wondrous items.(yes I lowered the caster level requirement but added a feat requirement).

[Blightedmarsh]

But without it being an explicit rule you also have to set things such that any magic item that would be crafted by a higher level character aren't around either, no +3 weapons or armor, no staves of any kind, no magical rings, and so on and so forth. This will beg the question from the players, "hey? Why is it that there's no high-end magical gear in this world that's been populated by wizards and clerics and such for millenia?"

The feet idea is I think a good one.

One thought:

High level gear does exist but you need to take an epic feet to use it. A way of presenting this is the old sword in the stone gag.

You have a +5 flaming burst longsword lodged in a stone and "whoever weildeth this sword is the biggest badass to walk the plains of Erox".

Your PCs come along and inevitably one of your guys wants to take a shot at it. Their is an NPC knight who got their first. You see him try to draw the sword and immediately burst into an intense flame that burns him to crispy bone shrapnel in a pool of his own semi-melted armour.

Then you have the One ring. In Saurons hands it is a tool of ultimate domination. It could give any of the major powers the means to rule middle earth but in Bilbos' hands its just a ring of invisibility.

Epic artifacts exist but without the proper precautions and prerequisite you have no hope of using them properly.

[Eldest]

I like 6E, but it depends on DM and campaign.
Same reason D&D is not fit for a Warhammer 40k campaign.

I ran a 6E campaign in which I sort of ported the Jak & Daxter games and let the party run through that, having them use their abilities and wits and keeping enemies always as a threat. City guards are a pain in the ass both beginning and end, since they're also trained warriors and you're not all demi-deities like in regular D&D.

Again, depends on DM and concept. The fact you hate it is probably the fact you either played or wrong with a wrong campaign idea or DM or can't build decent low-level characters and rely on high level game.

Alrighty, not picking on you specifically, but where are people getting the "gritty and realistic" idea from? Search the entire E6 document, where the idea first comes up. Gritty is mentioned once, as an adjective associated with levels 1-5.

If you are going to argue those levels aren't gritty, in any 3.5 game, I will laugh at you.

Now, search realistic? Nothing. No claims to realism. I've literally only heard those elements mentioned by detractors as to what the rules hack is apparently about, and how that's not what they like. And that's fine! But it's not actually E6.

[Kiero]

Any low-level campaign could be set up this way (entirely setting-specific), without the addition of E6 rules. Playing an E6 campaign and playing a low-level campaign where you never encounter anyone above level 6 are really no different. What E6 does is make this an explicit rule rather than a setting decision.

Except it's not that simple. It's about expectations as much as anything else. Something sold as an E6 campaign is very clear, everyone knows there will be nothing over 6th level anywhere in the world (and implicitly not from other worlds either). A soft, setting-specific ruling leaves everyone less clear about where things stand.

[TuggyNE]

In cosmic horror, the more you beat the threat back, the faster it encroaches.

Unless you manage to banish/stall it temporarily, like, oh I dunno, Cthulhu and the Alert in the story that gave the name to the game?

Edit: I should mention that I'm not a fan of cosmic horror, and have neither played the game nor read Lovecraft's works. I do have a decent second-hand knowledge of it, though, and I would loathe it still more if it lacked even those faint rays of hope Lovecraft seems to leave in, such as "perhaps we can seal things back up for a while, if all goes well".

[Talya]

There is a common misconception by E6 players (which makes sense, as the people who came up with the idea had the same misconception, based on the nonsensical rule in E6 referencing it) that caster level on items is a crafting requirement. It isn't. Of course the Forge Ring feat itself has a caster requirement that can't easily be met in E6.

[Starmage21]

Yeah, past a certain point one of a few things is happening:
1) Multiverse level threats happen so regularly the players get fed up with it just because it makes no sense.

2) PCs spend decades, centuries, or millenia between adventures. Your only long-running NPC figures are gods and the like. Even then this will start to feel like 1, simply because stating "500 years pass" doesn't change the fact that you did this last sunday.

3) The epic level characters get retired, you start over playing at a lower power level after a big epic adventure, and after a suitable amount of time IRL passes, when you get the itch for that kind of big thing again, then you switch back.

In addition to what Scow2 said, I'd like to add: No one said that such an epic quest must be finished in one session! To me, epic quests should take place over several sessions, where the PCs are fighting and constantly gaining experience, until they've gained enough strength and captured the mcguffin required to end quest in an epic battle against the BBEG.

I hate the whole "you get XP at the end of the adventure" type setups. XP should come at the end of a session, where one session probably represents one leg of a quest designed for higher level players.

[Zanos]

People are looking at high level characters wrong. You shouldn't be saving the world from some new big bad every session, your characters should be pursuing their own personal interests, because they are people.

They also happen to have three powerful friends who they trust to give them a hand, and fully expect to lend the favor back.

[G.Cube]

I've always wanted to try an E6 game, but I can't find rules for it anywhere. :(

[hymer]

I've always wanted to try an E6 game, but I can't find rules for it anywhere. :(

Try here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D). Never be afraid to ask. Well, that's a silly thing to say, but you get the point, I hope.

[Zubrowka74]

Yeah, past a certain point one of a few things is happening:
1) Multiverse level threats happen so regularly the players get fed up with it just because it makes no sense.

2) PCs spend decades, centuries, or millenia between adventures. Your only long-running NPC figures are gods and the like. Even then this will start to feel like 1, simply because stating "500 years pass" doesn't change the fact that you did this last sunday.

3) The epic level characters get retired, you start over playing at a lower power level after a big epic adventure, and after a suitable amount of time IRL passes, when you get the itch for that kind of big thing again, then you switch back.

That's why you have to plan ahead and pace the different magnitudes of the story arcs. You begin with simple survival, then it's village threatening monsters, then kingdom threatening armies of lecherous orcs, then continent threatening über-abomination, then world threatening godspawned behemot, then plane threatening mad, scheming deity, then reality threa... you get the point.

[G.Cube]

Try here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D). Never be afraid to ask. Well, that's a silly thing to say, but you get the point, I hope.

Thanks!

Let me see if I understand this, cause it sounds a little lame... you just cap the pc level at six, then load them up on feats after that? If this is the cause, I'm not sure I understand the point of not just playing normally and leveling. If tge feeling of "gritty, realistic fantasy" is the only motivator behind this, then I'd like to ask, how is this going to feel any different then the dm normally just tossing proper cr encounyers at the players?

[Lord Vukodlak]

That's why you have to plan ahead and pace the different magnitudes of the story arcs. You begin with simple survival, then it's village threatening monsters, then kingdom threatening armies of lecherous orcs, then continent threatening über-abomination, then world threatening godspawned behemot, then plane threatening mad, scheming deity, then reality threa... you get the point.

My high level group is currently dealing with a race of extra planar spell casters who are trying to merge their plane with the prime material because there realm is a prison from which getting in his easy shifting out... much more difficult.

It started small the first arc was liberating the kingdom from the occupying foreign Empire. That was the first ten levels, after which they started to unravel the mystery of these cracks in the fabric of reality leading to the above fight.

[PersonMan]

If tge feeling of "gritty, realistic fantasy" is the only motivator behind this, then I'd like to ask, how is this going to feel any different then the dm normally just tossing proper cr encounyers at the players?

Because doing so is entirely unrealistic and ungritty?

If your definition of "realistic" includes chopping through three dozen trained warriors as an afterthought while moving towards the real threat, which is a beast that could sleep through the efforts of a dozen soldiers trying to kill it, and "gritty" involves never needing to bring food, navigate or even find shelter even in the middle of nowhere, then you will find that the majority of people here disagree with you.

Also, there are several other motivations, such as 'characters becoming stronger and becoming strong forces in the world, without all the insanity that mid and high level DnD brings'. E6, in my experience, implies that monsters with a higher CR than 5 or 6 are beasts of legend, and that level 6 NPCs are as rare as level 20s in normal campaigns. So PCs can grow to become the strongest [X] around, without carrying a continent's worth of gold in magic items or living in total disconnect from anything even resembling a normal person's life.

[Grinner]

Thanks!

Let me see if I understand this, cause it sounds a little lame... you just cap the pc level at six, then load them up on feats after that? If this is the cause, I'm not sure I understand the point of not just playing normally and leveling. If tge feeling of "gritty, realistic fantasy" is the only motivator behind this, then I'd like to ask, how is this going to feel any different then the dm normally just tossing proper cr encounyers at the players?

Consider this: How many goblins does it take to kill a level 5 wizard? Level 10? Level 15?

The nature of the game changes as the player characters' levels increase. What's challenging at one level is of negligible concern at another. It gets to the point where only increasingly dangerous (and increasingly ridiculous) foes pose any threat.

Mind you, that's not the only use of E6.

Edit: Damn ninjas.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Thanks!

Let me see if I understand this, cause it sounds a little lame... you just cap the pc level at six, then load them up on feats after that? If this is the cause, I'm not sure I understand the point of not just playing normally and leveling. If tge feeling of "gritty, realistic fantasy" is the only motivator behind this, then I'd like to ask, how is this going to feel any different then the dm normally just tossing proper cr encounyers at the players?

There is a wealth of material and adventures that can be had in these early levels... and a ton of it becomes irrelevant a few levels later. Travel, exploration, piff divination eliminates mysteries.

A high level fight could last for three rounds.... and take forty-five minutes to complete. But back at level six a combat may still only last three rounds but its completed in a fraction of the time, in essence you can get a lot more done. There are less buffs to keep track off, less attack rolls to add up, hit points are much lower so tracking them is easier.

[PersonMan]

That's why you have to plan ahead and pace the different magnitudes of the story arcs. You begin with simple survival, then it's village threatening monsters, then kingdom threatening armies of lecherous orcs, then continent threatening über-abomination, then world threatening godspawned behemot, then plane threatening mad, scheming deity, then reality threa... you get the point.

And then you get to the top, and then what?

Your point doesn't really answer the issue of "everyone is level a billion and anything that can threaten/challenge them should be absurdly rare".

[G.Cube]

So E6 is also effectively a low magic setting?

[Powerfamiliar]

Thanks!

Let me see if I understand this, cause it sounds a little lame... you just cap the pc level at six, then load them up on feats after that? If this is the cause, I'm not sure I understand the point of not just playing normally and leveling. If tge feeling of "gritty, realistic fantasy" is the only motivator behind this, then I'd like to ask, how is this going to feel any different then the dm normally just tossing proper cr encounyers at the players?

It's more of a world building / setting expectaions type thing. No NPC will be above 6th level, and the world has to be built around that. PCs are a big deal in the world even from level 1. I feel it a lot less about realism and more about verisimilitude. It's much easier to explain why plagues/famines/wars are a serious problem when you dont have 10+ level NPCs.

It really helps with the "why don't the high level NPCs handle this problem?" question. If you have a game where the conflict is an army is marching on a kingdom, disbelief will be broken if you later find out that said kingdom had a number of high level caster's in it. In pretty much every scenario you have to come up with a reason why the high level NPCs couldnt handle it.

It ends up feeling like how horror movie character's never have cell reception, or how Buffy handled Willow in the later seasons. They either had to incapacite her at the begining or come up with an excuse for why she couldn't just solve the problem.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So E6 is also effectively a low magic setting?

Define low magic? a sixth level caster can't even make most magic items and many of the common items, weapons, armor, cloaks of resistance, etc have that limitation of the creator's caster level must be three times the bonus. You also have no haversacks, bags of holding or portable holes because they all require 4th or 5th level spells

If by low magic you mean there are only low-level items available yes. If by low-magic you mean magic is incredibly rare... not necessarily. Wizards, Clerics and other such spell slingers could be just as common as in any setting the level curve is just lower.

[Scow2]

"There is nothing above sixth level" is a misconception about E6.

There are still higher-level magic items and the like. There are still spells all the way up to 9th level. There are still monsters of CR 20+.

The difference is that mortals can't hope to face them on their own, and there's no way for the magic items to be crafted in the normal way (Except by high-CR monsters)... but there are still powerful 'can do anything' rituals. Mot magic items are either crafted by monsters of legend, and/or left over from a previous era.

[Powerfamiliar]

"There is nothing above sixth level" is a misconception about E6.

There are still higher-level magic items and the like. There are still spells all the way up to 9th level. There are still monsters of CR 20+.

The difference is that mortals can't hope to face them on their own, and there's no way for the magic items to be crafted in the normal way (Except by high-CR monsters)... but there are still powerful 'can do anything' rituals. Mot magic items are either crafted by monsters of legend, and/or left over from a previous era.

That is true. When I mentioned the nothing above level 6 I meant that in my experience there is ussually nothing above level 6 on the PCs side. In my E6 Eberron game there are Rakshasas and Daelkyr as the BBEG, and other createrues above CR6 roam the world. But the expectation is that you won't find NPC's above level 6 in a city/nation and that you won't find magic items above CL6 being sold in a magic mart.

[Craft (Cheese)]

People are looking at high level characters wrong. You shouldn't be saving the world from some new big bad every session, your characters should be pursuing their own personal interests, because they are people.

Superman is most interesting when he's dealing with problems that he can't solve with his fists.

[Elderand]

Superman is most interesting when he's dealing with problems that he can't solve with his fists.

That may be true but superman might as well be a commoner when compared to high level dnd character when one consider the options they have. Specificicly caster. There are no situation that can't be solved by high level magic. The only opposition is other high level magic and that's beaten by using even more magic.

Superman may have stories where using his power won't be of help but that simply doesn't happen to a high level party of dnd character.

[thorr-kan]

The only drawback that jumps immediately to mind for me personally is Binders - without houseruling, you'll never get to bind two vestiges at once, which is a huge chunk of the fun for the class. Mix-n-matching vestiges is the Binder's meat and potatoes.
Sixth Level capstone ability, like a fighter's ability to take feats that require BAB +8?

[PersonMan]

So E6 is also effectively a low magic setting?

In that it's a low everything setting, I guess. Less high level casters = fewer and less powerful magic items, so a Big Ultra Doom Blade will be a rare relic rather something the PCs can churn out in a level or two.

[Friv]

Agreed. I once started playing around with the idea of a world where most people are locked into E6 with a rare few being more along the lines of E10 or E12(never decided which) and legendary heroes and the like making it out of the E12 region to the normal level cap of 20 and so on.

I quickly realized I had neither the homebrewing experience or understanding of game design necessary to make it anything but cludgy though.

I was toying with an Exalted D&D riff that worked that way:

Mortals were playing D&D at E6, and also could only take the Warrior, Aristocrat, Expert or Adept classes (well, and Commoner, but heroic mortals don't take Commoner).

Dragon-Bloods were playing standard D&D, and started at Level 3.

Lunars were playing a PC class gestalted with Druid, and started at Level 4.

Sidereals were playing a PC class gestalted with Bard, and started at Level 4.

Solars were playing a PC class gestalted with any other PC class, and started at Level 5.

I didn't get as far as Abyssals, but presumably they were just like Solars but encouraged towards necromancy, and Infernals... would have been a little trickier without significant fluffing. Maybe they always gestalt something psionic, and no one else can play psions?

[Mighty_Chicken]

TL;DR of a lot of replies IIT: E6 isn't gritty. It starts gritty as any D&D game, then stops at high heroic (equivalent level ~10).

[Zubrowka74]

And then you get to the top, and then what?

Your point doesn't really answer the issue of "everyone is level a billion and anything that can threaten/challenge them should be absurdly rare".

Yes, I was only refering to "regular" play. I honnestly think there's a limit to how far you can play a character. Even epic levels are optionnal material, the "normal" limit being level 20. At one point you just have to retire, ascend to godhood or whatnot. To who want to go on, well they do so knowing it'll be hard to challenge.

Speaking of which, in the old "BECMI" series of boxes the black "Masters" had a section on becomming immortal. It described for each class a path to follow which involved absurdly high level tasks, not unlike Hercule's. Thing like going back in time and found a dynasty lasting thousands of years, training X number of apprentices that reache Archmage status and such. Good stuff, I should go back and re-read it. I still have it somewhere in the attic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thanks!

Let me see if I understand this, cause it sounds a little lame... you just cap the pc level at six, then load them up on feats after that? If this is the cause, I'm not sure I understand the point of not just playing normally and leveling. If tge feeling of "gritty, realistic fantasy" is the only motivator behind this, then I'd like to ask, how is this going to feel any different then the dm normally just tossing proper cr encounyers at the players?

Others have addressed this but I'll see if I can't be a little more complete.


A normal game that's played with well optimized and tactically savvy casters is -very- difficult to keep feeling gritty or realistic. Just the tactical applications of teleportation magic or being able to reshape the battlefield to give your allies a massive tactical advantage makes it pathetically simple to make mundane foes a joke. A horde of goblin or orc warriors can be slaughtered wholesale like sheep once the wizard sets up a kill zone for his buddies and if the proverbial poo hits the fan; whether it's enemies, traps, or just an unpleasant social situation; he can snatch everyone's butts out of the fire with a word and a moderately clear destination within a couple hundred feet or, after level 9 or so, any clear destination any where in the world.

Even mid and high level warriors can make realistic fall to pieces. A decently optimized warrior can slaughter hordes of foes piecemeal without breaking a sweat unless they're all scaled to his level, which begs the question, "where were all these high level warriors and monsters hiding when I was a low-level scrub?" They're easier to keep gritty but realistic is a goner.

Even just decent access to level appropriate items can squash realism and grit by offering many of the same options that casters do, just at a much higher cost. You -can- keep level appropriate items away from the PC's but that entails a host of other concerns that have to be addressed.

Mid and high level 3.5 is just very difficult to keep gritty and impossible to keep realistic.

[AlltheBooks]

Not to mention the challenge. We are looking forward to our E8 (dipping our toes in). The player look forward to mastering the universe with only a select few tools at their disposal.

[Starmage21]

Others have addressed this but I'll see if I can't be a little more complete.


A normal game that's played with well optimized and tactically savvy casters is -very- difficult to keep feeling gritty or realistic. Just the tactical applications of teleportation magic or being able to reshape the battlefield to give your allies a massive tactical advantage makes it pathetically simple to make mundane foes a joke. A horde of goblin or orc warriors can be slaughtered wholesale like sheep once the wizard sets up a kill zone for his buddies and if the proverbial poo hits the fan; whether it's enemies, traps, or just an unpleasant social situation; he can snatch everyone's butts out of the fire with a word and a moderately clear destination within a couple hundred feet or, after level 9 or so, any clear destination any where in the world.

Even mid and high level warriors can make realistic fall to pieces. A decently optimized warrior can slaughter hordes of foes piecemeal without breaking a sweat unless they're all scaled to his level, which begs the question, "where were all these high level warriors and monsters hiding when I was a low-level scrub?" They're easier to keep gritty but realistic is a goner.

Even just decent access to level appropriate items can squash realism and grit by offering many of the same options that casters do, just at a much higher cost. You -can- keep level appropriate items away from the PC's but that entails a host of other concerns that have to be addressed.

Mid and high level 3.5 is just very difficult to keep gritty and impossible to keep realistic.

I never noticed it was hard to keep gritty and realistic. High level heroes will be few and far between, and most (not all) high CR threats dont bother with the prime material worlds much either. In the end it all boils down to not being able to be in 2 places at once. That trick is pretty much reserved for deities within the ruleset we've been given.

Same thing happens in Exalted. You get to kick much ass in that game, but you still cant be in more than one place at a time.

[Emperor Tippy]

Others have addressed this but I'll see if I can't be a little more complete.


A normal game that's played with well optimized and tactically savvy casters is -very- difficult to keep feeling gritty or realistic. Just the tactical applications of teleportation magic or being able to reshape the battlefield to give your allies a massive tactical advantage makes it pathetically simple to make mundane foes a joke. A horde of goblin or orc warriors can be slaughtered wholesale like sheep once the wizard sets up a kill zone for his buddies and if the proverbial poo hits the fan; whether it's enemies, traps, or just an unpleasant social situation; he can snatch everyone's butts out of the fire with a word and a moderately clear destination within a couple hundred feet or, after level 9 or so, any clear destination any where in the world.

Even mid and high level warriors can make realistic fall to pieces. A decently optimized warrior can slaughter hordes of foes piecemeal without breaking a sweat unless they're all scaled to his level, which begs the question, "where were all these high level warriors and monsters hiding when I was a low-level scrub?" They're easier to keep gritty but realistic is a goner.

Even just decent access to level appropriate items can squash realism and grit by offering many of the same options that casters do, just at a much higher cost. You -can- keep level appropriate items away from the PC's but that entails a host of other concerns that have to be addressed.

Mid and high level 3.5 is just very difficult to keep gritty and impossible to keep realistic.

It can fairly easily be kept gritty and realistic.

The kicker is that spread over the great wheel as a whole there are more things above CR 5 than below it. Yeah those goblin hordes might be a menace to a local village or even city (and at the extreme an entire nation) but that's all and on a fundamental level they won't change much. So yeah a level 20 badass could swoop in and wipe out that goblin horde in an afternoon (and he does do so on occasion, these are in many ways high level random encounters where the PC's old allies contact them with an emergency like this and they port over, wipe out the threat with gratuitous violence and minimal resource expenditure, and then go back to important things) but when he is doing that he is not off countering the plot of some Pit Fiend to bring a whole world spanning empire into the worship of his Prince or dealing with the Lich who is trying to ascend to god hood by eating the souls of a few hundred thousand individuals, etc.

The little stuff gets to still exist and be a threat to the normal people on the prime material plane because the high level heroes and even villains are constantly dealing with threats of one kind or another on a far greater scale. Most of the little people will never even hear about these adventures or know that they occured, after all it's not a palace coup in the local dukes castle but a palace coup in the court of a Demon Lord that was engineered by the PC's to derail plans that said Demon Lord had for invading the world (as the new Demon Lord will be spending the next century or so solidifying its power base and not have the time or resources to spare on an invasion). At best the little people get a rumor of a rumor.

[Blightedmarsh]

At that level though he is less a mortal champion and more a physical god playing 4th dimensional scrying chess for the fate of the universe.

To put it into context an artificer at that level would be like the Doctor in full on time-war mode.

[NichG]

People are looking at high level characters wrong. You shouldn't be saving the world from some new big bad every session, your characters should be pursuing their own personal interests, because they are people.

They also happen to have three powerful friends who they trust to give them a hand, and fully expect to lend the favor back.

An entire night of watching each player narrate how they woo a lover, write poetry, or gaze at a scenic hillside does not an exciting session make. Some of it is good, to establish characterization, but really the moments of tension are the point of the game.

Add on top of that that players who like high level play generally (in my experience) like tension that involves using their high-level powers to solve. I don't know many - if any - players who really want to get to 20th level so they can sit down and negotiate peace treaties between stubborn nations. Generally they want to teleport through space and deal with the time-eating beetle-gods from Dimension Q, or beat a path through the hordes of hell to clonk Asmodeus upside the head, or grasp for the power at the heart of the planes and transform themselves into living gods.

And eventually, their every act having cosmic significance just gets tiring. I've been in campaigns that were all high-end stuff like this, and over extended periods of time they tend to produce the feeling that nothing really matters, because it feels easy to change things, just as easy for someone else to mess them up.

The other thing that tends to happen is a sense of detachment. Early in the sequence, the players are still clinging to morality and ethics. Once they realize they can just shoot em all and resurrect the innocent, or that the laws of societies are in place to deal with people who are far less important than them and seem to always be getting in the way of cosmically important tasks, then they start to see themselves apart from that random village or that kingdom or whatever. At which point, the heroism is no longer as poignant, because the heroes are doing it simply because they have the power to do so and its the thing to do, not because they actually care about those they're saving.

I'm not saying all of this happens the second you get to Lv20, but if you have a campaign that spends a lot of time in higher levels, where the challenges and situations are geared towards high-level characters and aren't just number-inflated versions of low level things, these are the sort of things that can happen to eventually kill interest in the campaign.

[Talya]

4th Level spells are easily accessible in E6 through Versatile Spellcaster...at least for Divine Casters, and Spontaneous casters that know all the spells on their list. (Sorcerers are out of luck. Wizards might luck out and find a 4th level scroll or something if the DM is being accomodating, but unlikely.)

[Pex]

An entire night of watching each player narrate how they woo a lover, write poetry, or gaze at a scenic hillside does not an exciting session make. Some of it is good, to establish characterization, but really the moments of tension are the point of the game.

Add on top of that that players who like high level play generally (in my experience) like tension that involves using their high-level powers to solve. I don't know many - if any - players who really want to get to 20th level so they can sit down and negotiate peace treaties between stubborn nations. Generally they want to teleport through space and deal with the time-eating beetle-gods from Dimension Q, or beat a path through the hordes of hell to clonk Asmodeus upside the head, or grasp for the power at the heart of the planes and transform themselves into living gods.

And eventually, their every act having cosmic significance just gets tiring. I've been in campaigns that were all high-end stuff like this, and over extended periods of time they tend to produce the feeling that nothing really matters, because it feels easy to change things, just as easy for someone else to mess them up.

The other thing that tends to happen is a sense of detachment. Early in the sequence, the players are still clinging to morality and ethics. Once they realize they can just shoot em all and resurrect the innocent, or that the laws of societies are in place to deal with people who are far less important than them and seem to always be getting in the way of cosmically important tasks, then they start to see themselves apart from that random village or that kingdom or whatever. At which point, the heroism is no longer as poignant, because the heroes are doing it simply because they have the power to do so and its the thing to do, not because they actually care about those they're saving.

I'm not saying all of this happens the second you get to Lv20, but if you have a campaign that spends a lot of time in higher levels, where the challenges and situations are geared towards high-level characters and aren't just number-inflated versions of low level things, these are the sort of things that can happen to eventually kill interest in the campaign.

That is when the campaign retires with full fun had all around and a new one starts. It's a feature, not a bug. If the PCs had become gods, the new characters can worship them.

Liking and wanting high level play does not equate to always wanting to play it nor hating low level play.

[NichG]

That is when the campaign retires with full fun had all around and a new one starts. It's a feature, not a bug. If the PCs had become gods, the new characters can worship them.

Liking and wanting high level play does not equate to always wanting to play it nor hating low level play.

Or you can run E6 or a similar slow-progression system to draw out the period of the game where the enjoyment is more sustainable, like many people are doing.

[Gnorman]

It's almost like D&D can maintain multiple approaches to narrative structure at the same time, and none of them necessitate any value judgments.

[Thurbane]

Sixth Level capstone ability, like a fighter's ability to take feats that require BAB +8?
Yeah, I think that would be the best way to run Binders in an E6 game.

It's almost like D&D can maintain multiple approaches to narrative structure at the same time, and none of them necessitate any value judgments.
No no no! If you're not playing the game exactly the way I do, you're doing it wrong!

:smalltongue:

[Alabenson]

Or you can run E6 or a similar slow-progression system to draw out the period of the game where the enjoyment is more sustainable, like many people are doing.

But what if you or your players don't like slow-progression systems or E6's low ceiling for vertical advancement?

There's nothing wrong with liking E6, but it isn't for everyone, and some people (myself included) simply are not likely going to enjoy a game run using that rule set.

[rexx1888]

To the OP: just a side note but e6 is not the first hack or just all round system designed with lateral progression in mind, and railing against one is essentially railing against an evolving attitude in design thats supposed to add longevity(and therefore more well rounded characters) to campaigns.

for example, world of darkness puts a hard cap on how "effective" a mortal can be. This doesnt mean its a good system, but even when it gets silly players never feel it, you know, because they are still running for their lives. the complaints against E6 are at best misguided. As has been pointed out, you dont have to play it. At least look at it this way, E6 is a step towards a better system in the future. One capable of catering to the needs of all players, not just one type. An yes, its a necessary step, because as long as games that have a straight progression like dnd exist, there will be players like me that are roped into insane nonsensical plots because they didnt understand the system when they started and now they are too invested in the game and the people to stop. Or worse, new players being hobbled by initial choices that make them nigh useless half the time, and yet they can only keep playing because its the only group for miles in any direction and so on an so forth.

[Augmental]

But what if you or your players don't like slow-progression systems or E6's low ceiling for vertical advancement?

There's nothing wrong with liking E6, but it isn't for everyone, and some people (myself included) simply are not likely going to enjoy a game run using that rule set.

Nobody is saying that you have to like E6.

[Pex]

Nobody is saying that you have to like E6.

But that seems to be the subjective inclination from the E6 defenders when those of us who don't like it say why.

[johnbragg]

But that seems to be the subjective inclination from the E6 defenders when those of us who don't like it say why.

It's human nature. They (we) like E6, so we naturally feel that everyone should like E6. That's going to come through in the argument even if we know that not everyone is going to like it.

But yeah, after you've been over the arguments from the defenders, and you're still not interested, you probably aren't going to like E6. That's fine.

[Elderand]

But that seems to be the subjective inclination from the E6 defenders when those of us who don't like it say why.

And it seems to be the subjective inclination from the E6 detractor to say that you can't like E6

[Gnorman]

But that seems to be the subjective inclination from the E6 defenders when those of us who don't like it say why.

I think that, fundamentally, it's going to be in our nature to attempt to convince one another of our own position. Those of us who love E6 will want to gush about its advantages; those of us who do not will want to gush about the advantages of a non-E6 environment. As with any Venn diagram, the overlap area is fluid but will always exist - maybe some groups thought about E6 but never gave it a try, and this thread might be the little push that gets them to do so (or rule it out entirely). Maybe someone's group plays E6 a little too much and they miss high level play - they can point to this thread and say, "See? Look what we're missing out on." But so too exists the area outside the overlap - there are people who simply aren't going to like E6, and that's okay. I'm probably one of the most rabid E6 fans around, and I'm capable of recognizing that many players, whether occasionally or on a regular basis, feel that it cuts off a major portion of the game that they find immensely enjoyable. Does that mean that E6 is bad? No, but it's just not for everyone.

Neither one of us is right, and I highly doubt anyone would profess to think otherwise even if pressed. I don't think it's fair to try and paint one side or the other as saying that their way is "better" - they're merely biased to one camp or the other, and you have to take that bias with a grain of salt.

[Thurbane]

But that seems to be the subjective inclination from the E6 defenders when those of us who don't like it say why.
I definitely don't think E6 is for everybody, or that everybody should enjoy it.

I just think as an optional subset of homebrewed rules, it's extremely easy to avoid playing it if you don't enjoy it. The only time I can see it being an issue is if you only have access to one gaming group, and they refuse to play anything other than E6.

And it seems to be the subjective inclination from the E6 detractor to say that you can't like E6
This too - from what I've seen in this thread, on average the people who don't like E6 seem to be just as passionate saying that nobody should enjoy it as vice versa.

[Eldest]

But that seems to be the subjective inclination from the E6 defenders when those of us who don't like it say why.

You're free to hate it. Loathe it, go ahead. Just not for stuff that isn't actually part of it. Like realistic and gritty, which was my only point in the thread so far.

[TuggyNE]

I would like to take this opportunity to note that I neither particularly love (the idea of) E6, nor particularly hate it. It's something that might be fun to try sometime, and there's some interesting ideas that might or might not pan out well.

This message brought to you by the letter Meh.

[Yawgmoth]

I hate E6 because it tries to do something D&D is really bad at, in a way that D&D is really bad at. The whole bloody reason to use D&D is to progress through levels; if you want a different progression method, use a different system. There's plenty of them out there that are very good, or at least functionally playable. Plus, let's face it: 6th level is where most of your actually interesting character options start coming in. When I run games, I start my players at lv5 so they can get a feel for their characters and make adjustments as needed, then they get 6th within 2-3 sessions. E6 is just yet another attempt by the "I have to make the d20 do everything" crowd to jam another square peg in a round hole that's already occupied by several other pegs of varying shapes.

[Talya]

It's simply a lowering of the power cap. As long as you do it for the antagonists, too, it doesn't result in the players being any less badass...it just makes them more grounded.


I do think it's flawed in a few ways.

I like levelling, quickly, and often.

The way I'd change E6 is to put bonus feats between every level, rather than simply making it your advancement path at the end of your levelling.

So, you're level 1. 500 xp into level 1, you get a bonus feat. 1000xp you're level 2. at 2000xp, you get a bonus feat. 3000xp you're level 3. 4500xp, you get a bonus feat. 6000 xp you're level 4. 8000xp you get a bonus feat. 10000xp you're level 5. 12500 xp you get a bonus feat. 15000 xp you're level 6, then continue the feat every 5000xp.

It would make the levelling more granular, less of "a few big jumps." It'd also make PrC qualification easier for that last level.

Another option would be to allow you to continue advancing in a new class, using a gestalt type of system. So you hit level 6. When you'd normally hit 7, you instead get to pick level 1 in a new base class. This overlaps with your level 1 in your previous class, so it can't get you above BAB +6, or base saves of +5, or spellcasting above CL 6. If you allow PrCs at all, they can't increase any existing class features above level 6. This gets rid of that feeling that you're stuck at 6 and can no longer advance. By what would normally be level 18, you'd be the equivalent of a 6//6//6 "tristalt." (with a whole lot of feats, as i'd likely keep the feats in between levels thing). It still keeps the power curve low, but provides just as much advancement opportunity as normal d20.

[PersonMan]

E6 is just yet another attempt by the "I have to make the d20 do everything" crowd to jam another square peg in a round hole that's already occupied by several other pegs of varying shapes.

E6 is just yet another successful attempt for people to use a versatile system/game for more than one specific thing.

Why learn a whole new system for minimal benefit when you can play E6?

[Emperor Tippy]

Another option would be to allow you to continue advancing in a new class, using a gestalt type of system. So you hit level 6. When you'd normally hit 7, you instead get to pick level 1 in a new base class. This overlaps with your level 1 in your previous class, so it can't get you above BAB +6, or base saves of +5, or spellcasting above CL 6. If you allow PrCs at all, they can't increase any existing class features above level 6. This gets rid of that feeling that you're stuck at 6 and can no longer advance. By what would normally be level 18, you'd be the equivalent of a 6//6//6 "tristalt." (with a whole lot of feats, as i'd likely keep the feats in between levels thing). It still keeps the power curve low, but provides just as much advancement opportunity as normal d20.

That's my preferred approach. A character can get a broader skill set but can't gain in true raw power.

Although I would also add in that every 3 levels you gain +1 to the ability score of your choice up to a max of 20+racial bonuses.

[johnbragg]

That's my preferred approach. A character can get a broader skill set but can't gain in true raw power.

Although I would also add in that every 3 levels you gain +1 to the ability score of your choice up to a max of 20+racial bonuses.

I have to disagree with the idea of epic level E6 characters picking up levels in other classes. In 2E, I abused the dual-class rules with one of my DMPCs to create a level 8-level 8 character (I mostly ignored the "don't use your old class abilities rule", and had him hang at the back of the party sometimes and let the real PCs do the work.). That's just not the way it should work. Even if I had done it without cheating.

An "E6+20 more feats" character is at 115,000 XP, which would be 15th level. Even a caster using feats for extra spell slots, for 4th level spells as SLAs and stat boosts, that guy is still in the E6 range. He's a monster in E6, but that's the point.

E6+ characters still grow in power, they just do so much more slowly than characters leveling in ordinary D&D.

[prufock]

But without it being an explicit rule you also have to set things such that any magic item that would be crafted by a higher level character aren't around either, no +3 weapons or armor, no staves of any kind, no magical rings, and so on and so forth. This will beg the question from the players, "hey? Why is it that there's no high-end magical gear in this world that's been populated by wizards and clerics and such for millenia?"
"Because it's a low-level game." If they really demand rings, they can always be replicated with Craft Wondrous Item anyway, just like Bracers of Armor aren't actually armor.

Yes, E6 is easier to say, but they're functionally equivalent if you ignore E6's variations - CR effect on point buy and bonus feats beyond level 6, namely.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I don't really hate E6 or other low level games, at least not anymore than I hate games that take place from levels 15 to 20. In both games there are points where, if a DM isn't careful, the game's story can collapse in on itself. Unlucky TPKs are more likely, players can accidentally break the game, and any strategic mistake can lead to lots of pain.

Level 1: Oops, I moved somewhere I shouldn't have. *Gets hit once. -1 hp*

Level 20: Oops, I cast my quickened protection spell on the fighter instead of the cleric. *Fighter is warped into the Abyss to be tortured for eternity*

[Hecuba]

So E6 is also effectively a low magic setting?

Low magic is a poor term for it.
I would say instead that E6 creates a world more in keeping with the general tone of earlier published D&D settings (though not without exception) and Western Heroic Fantasy/Sword and Sorcery fiction.

[Coidzor]

"Because it's a low-level game." If they really demand rings, they can always be replicated with Craft Wondrous Item anyway, just like Bracers of Armor aren't actually armor.

Or you could just fold them into Craft Wondrous Item. While we're thinking laterally and all. XD

[OldTrees1]

Or you could just fold them into Craft Wondrous Item. While we're thinking laterally and all. XD

There is a crafting capstone feat that does just that.

[Rion]

And the more I read about Exalted and Scion the less interested I get in playing them (assuming negative interest exists as my interest was already at 0 when reading the summary).

It's almost like different people like different things and that there's no correct answer to such a subjective question as "what activities are fun?".
It's really annoying how many people think their way of having fun is the only "true" way of having fun, and everyone who thinks differently are objectively wrong.

[Flickerdart]

It's almost like different people like different things and that there's no correct answer to such a subjective question as "what activities are fun?".
There is though[1][2][3].

[1]: Prensky, Marc. "Fun, play and games: What makes games engaging." Digital game-based learning (2001): 1-31.
[2]: Koster, Raph. Theory of fun for game design. O'Reilly Media, Inc., 2010.
[3]: Federoff, Melissa A. Heuristics and usability guidelines for the creation and evaluation of fun in video games. Diss. Indiana University, 2002.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is like debating whether Ryse: Son of Rome (if it was longer and more fleshed-out and wasn't just another failed attempt to make a strategy/action-RPG hybrid) or Dark Souls is better. One is about a human soldier with personal and political power, one is about an undead warrior with incredible personal power.

[molten_dragon]

TBH, I freaking hate E6. For all of the various games I've played in the last 15-16 years, less than 1% of them has been of any kind of high level (or equivalent).

I'm tired of low power, gritty heroisms where the heroes cant stand up to mighty threats!

Never played it myself, but I know I wouldn't like it, so I can sympathize. I don't really start to enjoy D&D until about 5th level. 10th-15th is my preferred play range. I've been invited to a couple of E6 games and told the DM no because I knew I wouldn't enjoy it.

If I want to play something a little more realistic and human-scaled, I'll just play a different game. I LIKE how over the top high-level D&D is.

[Rion]

There is though[1][2][3].

[1]: Prensky, Marc. "Fun, play and games: What makes games engaging." Digital game-based learning (2001): 1-31.
[2]: Koster, Raph. Theory of fun for game design. O'Reilly Media, Inc., 2010.
[3]: Federoff, Melissa A. Heuristics and usability guidelines for the creation and evaluation of fun in video games. Diss. Indiana University, 2002.
Even if there is, it's nowhere near as narrow as most people make it out to be. What a single person finds fun is not the same as everything considered fun by all people and there's too many who don't get that.
Or worse, believe everything others find fun which they don't are somehow "lesser" than their own preferences.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"Because it's a low-level game." If they really demand rings, they can always be replicated with Craft Wondrous Item anyway, just like Bracers of Armor aren't actually armor.

Yes, E6 is easier to say, but they're functionally equivalent if you ignore E6's variations - CR effect on point buy and bonus feats beyond level 6, namely.

That's an option but that kind of blatant meta-game thinking breaks suspension of disbelief unless you can explain away the fact that there are no higher level characters.

[Just to Browse]

There is though[1][2][3].

[1]: Prensky, Marc. "Fun, play and games: What makes games engaging." Digital game-based learning (2001): 1-31.
[2]: Koster, Raph. Theory of fun for game design. O'Reilly Media, Inc., 2010.
[3]: Federoff, Melissa A. Heuristics and usability guidelines for the creation and evaluation of fun in video games. Diss. Indiana University, 2002.

Come on, just link 'em:

Fun, play and games: What makes games engaging (http://www.marcprensky.com/writing/Prensky%20-%20Digital%20Game-Based%20Learning-Ch5.pdf)

links to Theory of fun for game design, plus powerpoint. (http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/theoryoffun.shtml) The book was based on the speech he gave at the 2003 Austin game conference, and you learn basically as much from the presentation as you do from the book, without spending all that money.

Number three is the longest freaking paper in the history of ever (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?rep=rep1&type=pdf&doi=10.1.1.89.8294).

Also, flicker, I hate you for posting interesting things right before my finals week.

[Flickerdart]

Come on, just link 'em:

Fun, play and games: What makes games engaging (http://www.marcprensky.com/writing/Prensky%20-%20Digital%20Game-Based%20Learning-Ch5.pdf)

links to Theory of fun for game design, plus powerpoint. (http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/theoryoffun.shtml) The book was based on the speech he gave at the 2003 Austin game conference, and you learn basically as much from the presentation as you do from the book, without spending all that money.

Number three is the longest freaking paper in the history of ever (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?rep=rep1&type=pdf&doi=10.1.1.89.8294).

Also, flicker, I hate you for posting interesting things right before my finals week.
Links aren't MLA. :smalltongue:


Even if there is, it's nowhere near as narrow as most people make it out to be.
I really do feel like you should read at least one of the papers, now that they've been linked. Very little about individual human preference, "fun" included, is actually all that variable when you examine it with empirical methods.

[Talya]

E6 exists for people who want a low level game (which might sometimes be me) but still want their characters to take their place with the biggest baddasses in the world (which is usually me.)

[Just to Browse]

Links aren't MLA. :smalltongue:

:smallamused: What are you, educated?

[Slipperychicken]

Links aren't MLA. :smalltongue:


At least APA (Angeli 2010) requires one to put in URLs for web-based sources.


1. Angeli, E., Wagner, J., Lawrick, E., Moore, K., Anderson, M.,
Soderlund, L., & Brizee, A. (2010, May 5). General format. Retrieved from http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/

[Flickerdart]

At least APA (Angeli 2010) requires one to put in URLs for web-based sources.
I was citing a journal article, a book, and a dissertation. Just because they're available on the web doesn't make them web sources. :smallamused:

[prufock]

That's an option but that kind of blatant meta-game thinking breaks suspension of disbelief unless you can explain away the fact that there are no higher level characters.

It is as metagamey as saying that it's E6. No more, no less.

[Flickerdart]

How is saying "there are 6 levels" any less metagamey than saying "there are 20 levels"?

[Dead_Jester]

It is as metagamey as saying that it's E6. No more, no less.

That's true, although E6 more or less assumes that it is a fundamental law of the universe, or something that mortals just can't do, to go beyond a certain level threshold (hence, in E6, there is no 7th level in any class; it's not that there are none around, they can't exist). A low-powered game with no higher level characters achieves the same thing, but there is a a theoretical distinction relative to the possibility of the concept itself. On a more practical level, unless levels are formally caped (in which case you are playing Ewhatever but with no bonus feats), individuals in a low-powered world might not be high level, but they can imagine that some people could be more powerful than them; 6th level individuals in an E6 world are the cream of the crop; people can hope to equal them, but surpassing them isn't really possible, and that has narrative consequences which may or may not come into play in any given game.

[Aquillion]

That's essentially the core goal; give Wizards a reasonable toolbox (3rd level spells are pretty good) without making them as uber as they are at, say, 15th levelIt's not just that; there are a lot of classes (Paladin, Ranger, Monk, Barbarian -- pretty much all the fighter-types, really) that are heavily frontloaded, particularly in the first six levels. You get a lot of new and interesting abilities, then everything tapers off into upgrades (with a few high-level abilities, sometimes, but the important stuff is in the first six levels.)

I suspect that WotC did a lot more playtesting for lower levels than higher ones, under the assumption that most groups would never reach higher levels. This is a big part of why E6 works as well as it does.

[Slipperychicken]

I suspect that WotC did a lot more playtesting for lower levels than higher ones, under the assumption that most groups would never reach higher levels. This is a big part of why E6 works as well as it does.

I suspect this too. The games which I've seen start at level 1 rarely get past level 5 (assuming the default experience awards, rather than fiat-leveling). The only games I've played in above 10 either started there or used variant leveling systems.


Of course, if that assumption is correct, then what WotC actually did (put more resources into low levels) is sensible. If consumers play low levels much more than higher ones, then the low levels should be a higher priority to ensure satisfaction.

[Seerow]

I suspect this too. The games which I've seen start at level 1 rarely get past level 5 (assuming the default experience awards, rather than fiat-leveling). The only games I've played in above 10 either started there or used variant leveling systems.

That's strange. My group actually switched to E6 because we were leveling faster than some of our group's DMs could adapt. 1 level per session is close to the norm, and we've had some sessions with more than that in a really combat heavy night. This is playing by RAW experience values. Getting a feat or two a night is far less disruptive both time wise and power progression wise than gaining a couple of levels.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How is saying "there are 6 levels" any less metagamey than saying "there are 20 levels"?You misunderstand. Saying there are six levels -is- E6.

What's metagamey is saying there are 20 levels but you'll never go past <arbitrary level X> and neither will you be able to aquire any magic or magic items that those who are above <arbitrary level> can wield or create because the DM will actively prevent such an occurrence.


It is as metagamey as saying that it's E6. No more, no less.

Like I said, there's a fundamental difference between saying there are only six levels and saying you're not allowed to have the stuff available at the higher levels that you could theoretically reach or even simply borrow from if you've got the cash.

I can really only think of two decent explanations for the latter.

1) No one's ever made it to that high a level because it is -very- early in the campaign world's timeline.

2) All of those that came before were recently wiped out by some cataclysmic event that basically wiped the slate clean.

[Slipperychicken]

That's strange. My group actually switched to E6 because we were leveling faster than some of our group's DMs could adapt. 1 level per session is close to the norm, and we've had some sessions with more than that in a really combat heavy night. This is playing by RAW experience values. Getting a feat or two a night is far less disruptive both time wise and power progression wise than gaining a couple of levels.

That might be a result of my group playing less frequently (~4 hour, weekly sessions, excluding summer break, finals, etc). We do level up at a decent pace when we move quicky (1 level for a combat heavy session, take two sessions to level otherwise); like when we were just 2-3 players + GM, we met weekly, and everyone there knew the rules.

[prufock]

You misunderstand. Saying there are six levels -is- E6.
Well no, E6 means there are 6 levels, plus all these other rules. The other rules are what differentiate E6 from simply a low-level game.


What's metagamey is saying there are 20 levels but you'll never go past <arbitrary level X> and neither will you be able to aquire any magic or magic items that those who are above <arbitrary level> can wield or create because the DM will actively prevent such an occurrence.
There aren't 20 levels in standard D&D - level limit is unbounded at the upper end. This is why there are epic rules. Do you complain that it's metagamey that you'll never gain "level 120" magic items? My players never have. Some games (in fact I would say most games) never progress to epic levels. A game that never progresses past level 6 (or 3, or 9, or whatever) follows the same principal.

3) This game only goes to level 6.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well no, E6 means there are 6 levels, plus all these other rules. The other rules are what differentiate E6 from simply a low-level game.

The other rules are simply 1 feat per 5000xp beyond level 6 and the logical extension of the primary rule that there are only 6 levels. Though I understand there are some homebrewed feats to gain some abilities as though you were level 8 if you remain single classed.

There aren't 20 levels in standard D&D - level limit is unbounded at the upper end. This is why there are epic rules. Do you complain that it's metagamey that you'll never gain "level 120" magic items? My players never have. Some games (in fact I would say most games) never progress to epic levels. A game that never progresses past level 6 (or 3, or 9, or whatever) follows the same principal.

Except that's not entirely accurate. While you can technically level past 20 the vast majority of the system assumes that the game will end at or before 20. There's precious little material for epic games and this creates something of a soft cap.

I certainly would complain if the DM didn't give some decent explanation as to why there are high level characters with all the attendant high level gear and yet the universe conspired against the party to make damn certain that we absolutely had no way to meet them or aquire any gear that we couldn't theoretically craft ourselves no matter how hard we tried. That there are no such characters would certainly be acceptable but that begs the question "why?"

[NichG]

I certainly would complain if the DM didn't give some decent explanation as to why there are high level characters with all the attendant high level gear and yet the universe conspired against the party to make damn certain that we absolutely had no way to meet them or aquire any gear that we couldn't theoretically craft ourselves no matter how hard we tried. That there are no such characters would certainly be acceptable but that begs the question "why?"

Personally I think the worse thing is the possible 'betrayal' of playing an ordinary campaign starting from Lv1, then having the DM suddenly say when you hit Lv6 'okay, no leveling past here'. It's better to just say 'this is an E6 campaign' from the start, whether or not you actually think the campaign will go long enough to hit 6th level.

That way people who really do want to get through all the low level stuff as fast as possible because they're eager for high level play can basically recognize 'okay, this campaign won't be for me'.

Anything, the really elegant thing about E6 I think isn't the Lv6 limit, but the realization that you can continue to add an arbitrary amount of feats to characters in order to slowly pad their power-level without ever really breaking the game. It's a useful insight to realize that a Lv6 character + 50 feats is somewhere around ECL 10.

Even in games without a Lv6 limit, I've taken to allowing people to spend XP to buy feats at any time because it does a lot to widen the breadth of a character and lets them relax a bit. With the ability to get one or two extra feats at need, people don't have to rush towards prerequisites to make sure they hit early-entry points to PrCs, so people can build characters a bit more organically. I generally find that 3kxp for a feat is about right when its balanced against continued vertical advancement.

[Blightedmarsh]

Its it me or is acknowledging the existence of levels, XP or hit points in game in and of itself a kind of metagame.

[TuggyNE]

Its it me or is acknowledging the existence of levels, XP or hit points in game in and of itself a kind of metagame.

Somewhat, although all three have some in-game expression by default anyway (e.g. HD limits on spells, HP limits or amounts needed to go unconscious, XP spent on spells or stored in thought bottle, and so on). However, E6 itself does not acknowledge them in-game any more than any other variant does: the limits on character advancement are as invisible to the characters themselves as advancement itself is.

[Emperor Tippy]

Its it me or is acknowledging the existence of levels, XP or hit points in game in and of itself a kind of metagame.

Not really. There are clear and definable differences in power and capability between individuals and with that being the case some terminology would be devised to rank individuals.

[Aquillion]

I certainly would complain if the DM didn't give some decent explanation as to why there are high level characters with all the attendant high level gear and yet the universe conspired against the party to make damn certain that we absolutely had no way to meet them or aquire any gear that we couldn't theoretically craft ourselves no matter how hard we tried. That there are no such characters would certainly be acceptable but that begs the question "why?"I think maybe you misunderstand E6?

It's not just that you can't go above E6, it's that nobody can go above E6, and the setting reflects that. It's no more arbitrary than any of D&D's other mechanics. (Magic items that nobody knows how to produce exist in E6, sure, but they also exist in D&D in the form of artifacts.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think maybe you misunderstand E6?

It's not just that you can't go above E6, it's that nobody can go above E6, and the setting reflects that. It's no more arbitrary than any of D&D's other mechanics. (Magic items that nobody knows how to produce exist in E6, sure, but they also exist in D&D in the form of artifacts.)

What you've quoted isn't a comment about E6. It was part of a rebuttal to the notion that there's no difference between E6 and a normal low-level game.

While the two can be made to strongly resemble one another there is a fundamental difference in assumptions about how the world works between the two. The DM has to do so much to make that strong resemblance that it will always be simpler just to declare it an E6 game and be done with it.

[prufock]

The other rules are simply 1 feat per 5000xp beyond level 6 and the logical extension of the primary rule that there are only 6 levels.
Yes, these are the extra rules I'm referencing. I understand that LA = lower point buy is a standard rule as well. There are also the standard "capstone" feats that you can only take at level 6 and higher. These rules make the difference between "This game only goes to level 6" and "This game is E6."


Except that's not entirely accurate. While you can technically level past 20 the vast majority of the system assumes that the game will end at or before 20. There's precious little material for epic games and this creates something of a soft cap.
This isn't an alternate rule, though. It's in one of the core books. It has one other whole book dedicated to it. The ELH says plainly "There's no ceiling to the levels you can attain" and "No matter how good your character gets, there's always something more." The Craft Epic X feats are there, plainly. As most games never reach these levels, it's easy to ignore them. Low-level games just lower this expectation cap.


I certainly would complain if the DM didn't give some decent explanation as to why there are high level characters with all the attendant high level gear and yet the universe conspired against the party to make damn certain that we absolutely had no way to meet them or aquire any gear that we couldn't theoretically craft ourselves no matter how hard we tried. That there are no such characters would certainly be acceptable but that begs the question "why?"
Again, the epic parallel is relevant here. I'm going to ignore your first sentence here, because we're specifically talking about a low-level game, not low-level characters in a high-level game. There aren't high-level characters running around. As to why, there's really no need for justification, any more than E6 provides a justification.

In most games you are not going to play indefinitely. There is a finite amount of time that most people will devote to a single campaign, usually to the end of a story arc. If you say "this will be a level 1-6 game," your players should have just as clear an idea of what to expect as if you said "this will be an E6 game."

[georgie_leech]

In most games you are not going to play indefinitely. There is a finite amount of time that most people will devote to a single campaign, usually to the end of a story arc. If you say "this will be a level 1-6 game," your players should have just as clear an idea of what to expect as if you said "this will be an E6 game."

Personally, the former makes me think the DM planned this adventure to cover those levels. Depending on what we do, we'll probably mess those plans up somewhere along the line, so we might get to 7 or 8 when all is said and done. Further, it also suggests, barring anything else, that you might encounter NPC's with higher levels; if the intent is that everything, including the NPC's are low level, you need to discuss that as well.

If instead you say "We're starting at level 1, and once you hit level 6 there will be no more advancement at all, and all of the NPC's will reflect this level cap," why not just say "This is an E6 game?" It's shorter. :smalltongue:

[prufock]

Personally, the former makes me think the DM planned this adventure to cover those levels. Depending on what we do, we'll probably mess those plans up somewhere along the line, so we might get to 7 or 8 when all is said and done.
How? The DM has ultimate say in how fast you progress through levels. It isn't really possible to advance through more levels than the DM wishes.


Further, it also suggests, barring anything else, that you might encounter NPC's with higher levels; if the intent is that everything, including the NPC's are low level, you need to discuss that as well.

If instead you say "We're starting at level 1, and once you hit level 6 there will be no more advancement at all, and all of the NPC's will reflect this level cap," why not just say "This is an E6 game?" It's shorter. :smalltongue:

There are 2 problems with this. First, as I've pointed out, E6 involves some rules in addition to the level cap - bonus feat gain after level 6 and LA/point buy balance, at least. If you want to use those rules, then saying "E6" is easier (if your players understand what E6 is; if they don't, then it's far easier to say "game to level 6" than explain it to them). If you don't want to use those rules, though, you have to say "E6 with these exceptions" and then list the exceptions. It's easier in this case to say "game to level 6."

The second issue with this is that specific language is important. Saying the game is level 6 and saying the party is level 6 are two different things.

My original point is still

Disregarding a few variations, E6 is basically just playing a low level game. If you play a campaign that never goes beyond level 6, it's essentially the same thing.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There are 2 problems with this. First, as I've pointed out, E6 involves some rules in addition to the level cap - bonus feat gain after level 6 and LA/point buy balance, at least. If you want to use those rules, then saying "E6" is easier (if your players understand what E6 is; if they don't, then it's far easier to say "game to level 6" than explain it to them). If you don't want to use those rules, though, you have to say "E6 with these exceptions" and then list the exceptions. It's easier in this case to say "game to level 6."


No if the group doesn't what understand E6 is you have to say this is an E6 game then sit down and explain all the rules. You start with the title because some of them might actually know what E6 is then you explain the rules "game to level 6" only works as part of the explanation as to what E6 is.

Your original point

Disregarding a few variations, E6 is basically just playing a low level game. If you play a campaign that never goes beyond level 6, it's essentially the same thing.
Is still widely inaccurate, a sixth level party could still buy items that couldn't exist under an E6 setting. If you play a game that never goes beyond level 6 it ends before you reach level 7. If you play and E6 game it could run for 185,000xp.

[Eldest]

Disregarding a few variations, E6 is basically just playing a low level game. If you play a campaign that never goes beyond level 6, it's essentially the same thing.

No, no it really isn't. There exists the possibility of level 7 in a "game from 1 to 6" and the existance of people that are level 7 or above, with the implications that involves. And yes, that will affect the lower level people. Handy Haversacks do not exist in E6. You can't get a teleport for love nor money. Raise dead is the same, save for plot (aka, rituals). There are several implications of E6 that matter, while a 1-6 game does not have those implications.

[NichG]

Personally, I like the idea of starting an E6 campaign at Lv6 and going from there :smallsmile: The (mechanically) exciting bit of E6 for me is when you can start buying feats. Plus, if Lv6 is the sweet spot, there's no reason not to just play at the sweet spot (or if you like E8, you're saying Lv8 is your sweet spot; or if you like E10, or whatever).

[Scow2]

What's with the belief that Magic Items above 6th level don't exist in e6? You can still get a + 5 Vorpal Sword or Handy Haversack or What-have-you.

You don't need players/On-Demand NPCs to craft things through the default rules for there to be high-level items - There are monsters capable of crafting them, they could be ancient and produced through non-traditional means, or simply be crafted through elaborate rituals that allow low-level characters to make high-level items.

[NichG]

What's with the belief that Magic Items above 6th level don't exist in e6? You can still get a + 5 Vorpal Sword or Handy Haversack or What-have-you.

You don't need players/On-Demand NPCs to craft things through the default rules for there to be high-level items - There are monsters capable of crafting them, they could be ancient and produced through non-traditional means, or simply be crafted through elaborate rituals that allow low-level characters to make high-level items.

They're not going to be 'generally available' at the very least. You can't go and buy a +5 Vorpal Sword in town by default. Furthermore, you can't even go and buy a Heward's Handy Haversack in town by default.

If there are special rituals or ways in which those items can enter the game, it's basically the DM creating those ways. As a player, you can't assume that you will have access to any of that stuff unless the DM explicitly says so.

[Coidzor]

That's an option but that kind of blatant meta-game thinking breaks suspension of disbelief unless you can explain away the fact that there are no higher level characters.

...I'm sorry, what's wrong with meta-game thinking when we're talking about altering the rules of the game? :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

...I'm sorry, what's wrong with meta-game thinking when we're talking about altering the rules of the game? :smallconfused:

That's just it. He's talking about metagame thinking when you're -not- changing the rules.

[prufock]

There exists the possibility of level 7 in a "game from 1 to 6"
That would make it a 1-7 game, not a 1-6 game. All of your objections follow the same pattern.


No if the group doesn't what understand E6 is you have to say this is an E6 game then sit down and explain all the rules. You start with the title because some of them might actually know what E6 is then you explain the rules "game to level 6" only works as part of the explanation as to what E6 is.
I agree. With a group unfamiliar with E6, E6 requires more explanation than saying it's a 6-level game.


Your original point... Is still widely inaccurate, a sixth level party could still buy items that couldn't exist under an E6 setting.
How? Where are they getting them? Who is making them? How are they affording them?

Sure I guess the DM could arbitrarily hand them out as loot, but he could do that in E6 too. There is also a percentage chance that you'll end up with one as random treasure, but this exists in E6 as well and is just ignored (I assume you would re-roll that particular piece of treasure). The E6 "sourcebook" even says " a +4 sword is an amazing artifact in this setting, perhaps even made by the gods," so it is clear that these items can exist. If a DM wants to include them, or take the random treasure as rolled, he can do so in E6 as well as a low-level game - keeping in mind that these items are not standard.

There are a lot of assumptions being made here about just how limited E6 is, when the sourcebook isn't actually as restrictive as all that. Items above CL 6 are possible, as far as I can tell, with artificers, feats, and items that boost CL. Spells above 3rd are possible via feat chains or rituals. Very much of the E6 sourcebook includes something like "the DM should decide what to include" when it comes to these things. Capstone feats allow access to abilities beyond level 6.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That would make it a 1-7 game, not a 1-6 game. All of your objections follow the same pattern.

Basically speaking there are only two ways to absolutely guarantee that no one will make level 7 accidentally. Either you remove xp rewards as defined in the DMG and only hand out ad-hoc xp awards or you railroad the holy begeesus out of the party, ensuring that they never get into an encounter that you didn't anticipate. The latter is pretty universally regarded as a bad thing and the former is a houserule which I thought we were trying to avoid by playing a "regular" low level game.

[Flickerdart]

Basically speaking there are only two ways to absolutely guarantee that no one will make level 7 accidentally. Either you remove xp rewards as defined in the DMG and only hand out ad-hoc xp awards or you railroad the holy begeesus out of the party, ensuring that they never get into an encounter that you didn't anticipate. The latter is pretty universally regarded as a bad thing and the former is a houserule which I thought we were trying to avoid by playing a "regular" low level game.
You could also apply wights, XP-costing spells, and crafting in liberal measure.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You could also apply wights, XP-costing spells, and crafting in liberal measure.

Negative levels are a dice roll and the other two are out of the DM'a hands. The first may or may not work or, worst case, end in TPK. Setting up so that the others are necessary is both exceedingly tricky and blatant railroading.

[Coidzor]

That's just it. He's talking about metagame thinking when you're -not- changing the rules.

He was talking about changing rings to be created using the craft wondrous item rules as far as I could tell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He was talking about changing rings to be created using the craft wondrous item rules as far as I could tell.

That wasn't the point I was addressing. I specifically highlighted the statement "Because it's a low level game," since that was his primary point.

The secondary statement about magic items also isn't a change to the rules. Just as you make an elixir of love or dragon's breath with craft wondrous item even though they're basically identical to to potions so too could you make a finger-band of protection with CWI. It's a work-around not a rules change.

[prufock]

Basically speaking there are only two ways to absolutely guarantee that no one will make level 7 accidentally. Either you remove xp rewards as defined in the DMG and only hand out ad-hoc xp awards or you railroad the holy begeesus out of the party, ensuring that they never get into an encounter that you didn't anticipate. The latter is pretty universally regarded as a bad thing and the former is a houserule which I thought we were trying to avoid by playing a "regular" low level game.

Ad-hoc or free form xp isn't a house rule, it's a variant you can find in the DMG.

The DM does control xp gains by regulating the strength and number of encounters. That is true of an E6 game, a low-level game, or a 20-level game. It's a very basic duty of the position. How exactly would a party "accidentally" gain more experience that the DM didn't regulate?

[Lord Vukodlak]

How? Where are they getting them? Who is making them? How are they affording them?
Because if you don't explain to them the rules of E6 the question becomes how can they buy a +1 weapon (2,000gp) but not a handy haversack (also 2,000gp).
Your trying to claim that until sixth level there isn't a difference between E6 and a low level game. The rest of us are saying your completely wrong.

[Yawgmoth]

E6 is just yet another successful attempt for people to use a versatile system/game for more than one specific thing.

Why learn a whole new system for minimal benefit when you can play E6? I wouldn't go so far as to call it successful, given that there's still a lot of **** you have to do to make it playable (the same amount of work you have to do for any D&D game, really; just a different sort of planning).

Why would I learn all of the kludges and houserules of E6 when I could spend that time learning a system that will do the same thing better? d20 isn't versatile, it just has a lot of people trying to force it to be. You can try to force a lion to be vegan but you can't make it healthy at the same time. At the worst, you've spent a couple hours on some light reading of a new book; at best, you've broadened your horizons and found something new to enjoy. I fail to see anything even approaching a downside, unless you have a phobia of learning.