E6 and Vow of Poverty

[Kaeso]

I'm sure this may have been asked before at some point, but I'll run the risk of being pelted with rotten tomatoes and ask it again.

The concensus around these part seems to be that Vow of Poverty is a worthless feat, mostly because what magic items you can buy at a certain level greatly surpass anything VoP gives you. However, I wish to know if this also applies to E6. Allow me to make the situation more concrete: let's assume somebody in E6 (or E8) wishes to play an unarmed swordsage, a class that needs neither weapons nor armor, would he profit from taking Vow of Poverty under this very specific set of circumstances?

[Baroknik]

E6 VoP is a double edged sword. While the obvious drawback is somewhat mitigated there is a major problem once you start accruing heroic feats... You can't get wealth. Generally after level 6 in e6, there are two ways to advance: heroic feats and wealth. VoP cuts those options in half.

Now if it is a low-magic setting that becomes much less of an issue, as it does in any low-magic campaign.

In other words, it may not be a trap, but once you hit 6 it sure as heck may make your characters progression really boring!

[Stegyre]

No. If anything, VoP is worse in E6, as it's benefits scale with level, which is capped, while wealth is NOT capped in an E6 game.

Your specific example is also off. An USS still benefits from plenty of equipment, more than I expect he would from VoP.

[Baroknik]

Net E6 VoP gets you...
+6 AC
+1 attack/damage
+1 deflection to AC
Sustenance
Endure elements
3 bonus Exalted Feats

While not terrible, you will never get above +1 deflection/attack, sustenance/endure elements are largely RP bonuses, and bonus feats are greatly diminished in a system where feats are relatively cheap.

Now that's not to say VoP is unplayable -- in fact it can be loads of fun still depending on your group -- but it is most definitely not a great feat in general.

If you want an Exalted feat that gets buffed look at Touch of Golden Ice: it's save DC is actually relevant!

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, but you are looking at +2 weapons and maybe +3 armor being your baseline for NON-VoP characters. I would think that a class like wizard or cleric could pull it off. You are not equipment dependent, and stacking luminous armor onto the inherent deflection bonus would leave you with a high AC.

In fact, cleric 5 / monk 1 could be a very interesting build.

[Baroknik]

Yes, but you are looking at +2 weapons and maybe +3 armor being your baseline for NON-VoP characters. I would think that a class like wizard or cleric could pull it off. You are not equipment dependent, and stacking luminous armor onto the inherent deflection bonus would leave you with a high AC.

In fact, cleric 5 / monk 1 could be a very interesting build.

BoED p. 30 -- Exalted bonuses to AC from VoP do not stack with Armor bonuses, so you are still behind on armor (compared to armor wearing compatriots) and on your weapons (which can have enhancements of +1 equivalent, not just the flat +2)

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, I didn't say optimal, I said functional.

You would get 16+dex+wis+Luminous armor for defense, so pretty good actualy. I would expect your character to be 20 or so AC. Your attack would be Wis+4bab+1 (Intuitive Attack) and you apply touch of golden ice with each hit. The save would be relevant still.

This is on top of 5th level clerical casting.

Not as good as equipment, but not horrid ether. You are not stuck lacking the basics the way a higher level character would, as all characters lack those things at 6th level.

[Baroknik]

Well, I didn't say optimal, I said functional.

You would get 16+dex+wis+Luminous armor for defense, so pretty good actualy. I would expect your character to be 20 or so AC. Your attack would be Wis+4bab+1 (Intuitive Attack) and you apply touch of golden ice with each hit. The save would be relevant still.

This is on top of 5th level clerical casting.

Not as good as equipment, but not horrid ether. You are not stuck lacking the basics the way a higher level character would, as all characters lack those things at 6th level.

Sorry, I mistyped that earlier, the 6 AC doesn't stack with armor bonuses (which Luminous Armor is), so the deflection bonus would still stand, but you'd be sitting at 17+dex+wis, still not bad, but since a cleric can wear plate mail all you're gaining is wis to armor for -4 armor (assuming +3 plate mail)

[Fouredged Sword]

True again.

As I said, the flaw in VoP wasn't the numbers you get or the lack of bonuses. Those can be overcome or simply accounted for with acceptance of a weaker character. The flaw was that you loose all the side abilities you normaly get from items, like flight or immunity to negative energy. These things are VERY important at 20th level. At 6th level, their loss is much less pronounced, and a vow of poverty character is much more playable.

[Baroknik]

True again.

As I said, the flaw in VoP wasn't the numbers you get or the lack of bonuses. Those can be overcome or simply accounted for with acceptance of a weaker character. The flaw was that you loose all the side abilities you normaly get from items, like flight or immunity to negative energy. These things are VERY important at 20th level. At 6th level, their loss is much less pronounced, and a vow of poverty character is much more playable.

Oh, I agree, and like I said in an earlier post VoP works, just depending on your group. It will weaken the character from its optimal possibilities, but that isn't an issue if no one else in your group is high-op. Like I said, you may get bored more quickly once you hit level 6 though, since half your chance for advancement is lost. A good DM can largely make up for this (depending on your character concept) -- no magic item? How about you get a place of power or a stronghold? Lots of options don't have to be direct wealth for equivalent WBL.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would be tempted to grant an exalted feat progression, or maybe very slow advancement of the VoP features as the character donates wealth to a cause. Maybe use the WBL table in reverse. You would slow to a crawl pretty soon due to linear progression of loot matching an exponential scale

[Adverb]

The concensus around these part seems to be that Vow of Poverty is a worthless feat, mostly because what magic items you can buy at a certain level greatly surpass anything VoP gives you. However, I wish to know if this also applies to E6. Allow me to make the situation more concrete: let's assume somebody in E6 (or E8) wishes to play an unarmed swordsage, a class that needs neither weapons nor armor, would he profit from taking Vow of Poverty under this very specific set of circumstances?

If VoP benefits stop dead at ECL 6, I would say no. If they scale in some way past 6 (like the WBL suggestion, or if every five feats also gives you a "level" of VoP benefits) ... maybe.

I'm currently playing an unarmed swordsage in a campaign, and there's tons of gear you could be spending gp on. Drop me a PM if you want a list of stuff.

[Psyren]

The problem with most VoP threads is that they compare VoP to WBL. VoP will always lose in that scenario and that is intentional.

The point of VoP is to compare it to simply being naked without any vows at all.

[Talya]

Actually, by the time the VOP character gets that +8 to an ability score, they are no longer behind WBL, technically.

Of course, that's so far beyond E6 it's irrelevant to this thread.

[Psyren]

Actually, by the time the VOP character gets that +8 to an ability score, they are no longer behind WBL, technically.

Agreed, though that says way more about the ridiculousness of epic pricing than anything else :smalltongue: