Assassin Prestige build.

[D4rkh0rus]

Hi, uhm... Community? (new guy here, wheee)
I was wondering if you guys could help me with a character build.
Now before people start saying that the Assassin PRC is not as good as X prc or class, I'm kinda bent on using the prc.

So, I need helping making a build that includes 9 lvls of assassin (the magic using one, not the psionic one, but thats because I just dont understand psionics), the build would focus on bluff/disguise while keeping sensory and stealth skills maxed or near max as well.

Race has to be either lesser tiefling or Human and most WotC books are allowed (Dragon mag is outright prohibited) Flaws are allowed too.

I was going for something like Rogue 1/Cloistered cleric 1/Factotum 1-3/assassin 1-3/Swordsage 1/Uncanny trickster 1/assassin 4/Uncanny trickster 2 (subbing for assassin 5)/Assassin 6-8/ Uncanny trickster 3 (subbing for assassin 9) in that order (17-20 dont really matter)

It would be a melee focused one, CLoistered cleric would have knowledge, travel and undeath domains, and would trade both knowledge and travel for their feats.

For feats I would have Dark stalker, Keen intellect, TWF, weapon finesse, craven, shadow blade, snap kick (unarmed swordsage), and greater TWF (using a pair of gloves that give me imp TWF)

The main problem I find with the build are that on the first round I either "charge" or use a spell, meaning that effectively I dont do anything in the first round... the second one I use wraithstrike to have everything hit as a touch attack.
The rogue 1 is for overall skill points, the cleric is mainly for travel devotion and some knowledge devotion (although im not investing that heavily on knowledges, more focused on other skills. I do have 1 point in every one, so with collector of stories, I should be able to get up to a +3 normally. Is it all that?

Which comes to the main problem I find in the build. (Im starting at lvl 5) And the BaB is badly spread out and pretty low (even with the UT bumps).

On the subject, is BaB even that important if I'm gonna be using Wraithstrike? (apart from the extra attack points (6, 11)) Is knowledge devotion even necessary?

Any suggestions on how I could make this better?

would perhaps trading the cleric level for a barbarian 1 with pounce ACF be better? (are the wands unlocked from being a cleric that good? ill be taking UMD anyways)

Thanks in advance.

[holywhippet]

You could fix the casting problem by picking up divine metamagic and trading in turn undead uses to pay for the quicken metamagic.

[D4rkh0rus]

It wouldn't, since Wraithstrike is already a swift action spell, and not divine either way (its an assassin/arcane spell)

And Im already using the only swift action I got on moving with Travel Devotion. My problem lies in the round I "charge" at them (move into melee range).. Since I already spent my swift action on moving, I need to hit with my normal BaB (+ some dex) +2 (cuz im gonna be flanking)(maybe more from some spell) which considering the Medium BAB of all classes used, and the fact im stacking them, means that its pretty low.


But I do wonder if Extend spell could work...

[Emperor Tippy]

First question, are you playing from level 1 or starting at a later level?

Factotum 8/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Swordsage 1/ Assassin 9 is quite good.


Factotum 8 gets you extra standard actions (and Int to attack and damage) that end up dealing double damage thanks to Decisive Strike.

Factotum 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 2/ Chameleon 2/ Assassin 9 should keep the same feel as your posted build but do it better.

Use Divine Focus for Chameleon and you end up with second level Divine spells.

Factotum 4 picks you up the ability to spike your sneak attack damage through the roof when you want to assassinate a specific target.

Swashbuckler 3 gets you free Weapon Finesse and lets you add Int to all melee damage rolls against enemies that aren't immune to precision damage.

Swordsage 2 picks you up the various maneuvers but it also gets you Assassins Stance and qualifies you for Shadow Blade (and gets you Wis to AC in light armor, although that might not be worth all that much to you).

For race, Necropolitan Human is a good choice (you pretty much have to be human to qualify for Chameleon anyways, and Necropolitan gives you the various undead immunities, qualifies you for Lifesense, and lets you dump Con). If you take this then also get the Ritual of Shadow Walking if you can.

I would probably drop Keen Intellect. Your Will saves shouldn't be that bad without it and feats are always nice.

Craven, Darkstalker, Lifesense, Able Learner, and Shadow Blade would be pretty much the necessary feats.

I would advise against TWF. If you want the same feel but to be a whole hell of a lot better than look at the first build. Snap Kick can work with that for a ton of attacks but the -2's from Snap Kick will rapidly pile up.

[holywhippet]

It wouldn't, since Wraithstrike is already a swift action spell, and not divine either way (its an assassin/arcane spell)


I didn't mean for wraithstrike, I meant for whatever you normally cast in the first round. Divine metamagic can be applied to any spell you know, not just divine one.

[D4rkh0rus]

Tippy, I notice both builds make me take assassin at a much higher lvl than minimun, is this allright?

We start at lvl 6 (but I took the dark Template, and bought it off so im sitting at lvl 5, almost lvl 6 now).

Necrohuman isn't allowed, The campaign is a "magic is banned" one, so anything barring a well disguised Human-like creature, or a human, will pretyt much get chased by the inquisition (and I just hate changelings) (Also, im stuck as melee cuz the group needed one, and I wanted to make a skilled melee character. I am open to any suggestions as long as its assassin 9, preferably taken as soon as possible within the build).

thanks for your input though :P


whippet, Theres gonna be few spells im gonna use that arent swift cast action, and those will not work in combat, so divine metamagic would be lackluster. especially cuz i only get up to lvl 4 slots....

[holywhippet]

whippet, Theres gonna be few spells im gonna use that arent swift cast action, and those will not work in combat, so divine metamagic would be lackluster. especially cuz i only get up to lvl 4 slots....

Actually it sounds like you need to go deeper into the divine metamagic rabbit hole. If you get divine metamagic, extend spell and persistent spell (apply the divine metamagic to this) you can make wraithstrike and any other buff spells with a duration last for 24 hours instead. You might need nightsticks to power them all though.

[D4rkh0rus]

That.... sounds pretty awesome... will have to consult wiht DM though.

[Karnith]

Divine metamagic can be applied to any spell you know, not just divine one.
That got errata'd, actually. It now only applies to divine spells, though there are ways to get Assassin spells as divine spells (Southern Magician, Alternate Source Spell, etc.). Per the Complete Divine Errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a):

Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit paragraph of the feat description:
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. . . .

[Red Fel]

Well, frankly, Rogue is an inferior chassis. Yes, it's nice that Assassin's SA stacks with Rogue's, but it just seems silly, frankly. Other classes (such as Factotum) can do skillmonkey/combatant better.

My question to you, before I go any further, is this: What is it about Assassin that you want? I ask because, if you can get the benefits of Assassin from some other source, you might do better to go there, unless it's specifically the flavor you're looking after. If you say you just want Assassin because Assassin, that's fine too. I'm just curious.

I wouldn't rely on Wraithstrike, since that's a swift spell for a one-round buff. Even if you Persist it (which requires two feats and an extra six spell slots), that seems remarkably impractical. A Brilliant Energy weapon can perform a similar function, as it ignores AC from armor and shields (although not natural armor), and does so all day long. Admittedly, the glow is a problem, but meh. Pretty sure there are similar items in MIC.

I like that you've got Swordsage in there. And Factotum. And CC. But why not go whole hog? Hop into RKV, juice up your Cleric casting, keep the stealthy vibe, make better use of Shadow Hand?

[D4rkh0rus]

The assassin is cuz I like it. I know its not a great prestige class and can easily be replaced, But I want to play an assassin (the class, not the role X D). Mainly, im pondering if i should go cleric with travel devotion or barbarian with pounce for the charge, and some other things. But I was also looking at what people thought and how they would/could make it better.

[Nihilarian]

My favorite race for the assassin is the Tibbit from dragon compendium. Spend 3 rounds as a kitty cat, swipe the enemy with your claws, enemy falls over dead.

But then, Tibbit's my answer to everything.

Do you like the spellcasting aspect of the Assassin class? The spellcasting? SA? Poison? Death Attack? All of the above? What part of the assassin do you want to optimize?

[D4rkh0rus]

Which part? hmm mainly the skills and combat part, factotum lvls fix the skill part quite nicely, so now rly, the combat. I was goign for either 3 rounds disguised as a granny, or just outright get to them and full attack. Problem with the full attack is that I dont know what to do about it (its low)

Also Dragon is banned. so no tibbit

[Emperor Tippy]

Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 2/ Mindbender 1/ Assassin 1/ Exemplar 1/ X 1

Does everything that the Assassin does only better.

Damage wise you use Cunning Surge to get within range of your enemy, use a full attack action to activate Decisive Strike, and then use Cunning Surge for extra Standard Action attacks that each deal double damage to your enemy.

If you get a sneak attack and use Burning Blade then you will be dealing +4d6+2*(Int+Int+Dex+Str+HD+2+((HD-2)/2)) damage on every attack and will be getting (if you need them) 10 attacks in a round. Sufficient damage to one round kill a Great Wyrm Red Dragon.

That is one of the best "Assassin" builds around.

[Darrin]

Hi, uhm... Community? (new guy here, wheee)


Are you familiar with the Iron Chef Competitions? They tackled the Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202) back in... 2010, looks like. The builds start here a few posts down (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202&page=6), if you want to jump to those more directly. The winners are posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10106237&postcount=499). Spoons McGee (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9940342&postcount=171) was the first build to score a perfect 20.

[D4rkh0rus]

I like the feel of that build tippy, but... thats like 8? 9? different classes. My DM wont allow such a monstruosity from even touching the table. Id rather it include 9 lvls in assassin if possible as well.

On regards to the Iron chef Optimization challenge, ive read the assassin one, and no one used a spell assassin. And Im pretty lost when it comes to psionics. Does anyone know a handbook?

BTW Dippy, seeing the build again, i noticed it has even less BaB than mine... Is it ok for a melee combatant to only have +12 Bab at lvl 20?

(I also dont wanna go the FoI -> Cunning surge route, as Id run out of feats real fast, and I need stuff like darkstalker and Craven.)

I guess I should specify that the character's main role is not combat, His main role is of a skilled spy/assassin. (thats why I insist on assassin, especially death attack. And Telflammar shadowlord is out of the question for now).

Still, even though the char will be sneaking disguising and forging... yes... I'm actually gonna put a few skill points in forgery. You can never underestimate the power and potential of a dead king's will, wife and long lost bastard son who suddenly shows up with "legit" documentation. never, ahem. Either way, Id like him to be able to at least reliably do something in combat.
I don't mean like taking on the Big bad final boss on his own, but You know. Be able to finish off normal creatures of his level in one round (assuming they, through one or another method, are not immune to SA). Maybe, if the build permits it, deal some considerable damage to a dragon of around his CR, Etc. (and more importantly, Actually hit said dragon.)

(I drew a newer build of sorts, it would go Factotum 3, Swashbuckler1, Cloistered cleric 1, assassin 1-4 (by now itl have lvl 9 with +6 BaB for a second att) -> Swordsage 1 (for assassin stance and some maneuvers) -> Uncanny Trickster 1-2 (subbing for assassin at lvl 5, acting as a BaB buffer), Assassin 6-8, UT 3 (Subbing A9, bab buffer) then I would round out with 3 rogues levels and a Sneak attack thug fighter for a final SA Die at lvl 20...

Although this just screams "Highly UNoptimized" to me. D: )

(Also, If I ended doing something like that build or similar, would I have to put points in UMD? Which wands/scrolls would make it necessary to do so?)

[D4rkh0rus]

Actually, doing a few random fight simulations with the build i posted in the last post... (mainly first round, assuming I rolled a 10 in every attack (theres 7 of them from normal Bab, two weapon/imp two weapon fighting, Snap kick and Str. Devotion (Haste wasnt included, idk why), and half of them usually hit, but barely)

Are there any ways other than Weapons, Knowledge Devo, Flanking, Dexterity to hit, and weapon focus to raise my To-Hit (Ps I read Person-man's guide and I did not find anything specific)

Damage, especially coupled with with some items that give extra sneak attack dice, is fairly decent... I can, on average, kill a dragon of a CR = to my lvl on the first round (again, simulation assuming everything is average) although not by much (so there is a pretty high chance after I full attack in the first round, that Itl have a few Hp left to still hit me back). Im not sure if its good, probably a bad number. But then again, this character is skill focused, not combat.
Any ways other than the mentioned to boost Damage as well? (or extra attacks that don't lower my To-hit even more).


Of course this is only the first round of combat, seeing as with wands/spells/etc I can make all my attacks as touch attacks for a swift action (which on the first round id have spent moving with travel devotion).

On a side note, The spell "Spectral Weapon", It seems bad using it for this situation, am I right? or is it actually incredibly powerful?

[D4rkh0rus]

Bumpity bump. Some1 save dis damsel in distresssss.

[Nihilarian]

Grab two weapons, as much BAB as possible and Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

Use your spells, especially if you have Spell Compendium.

Forget poison and death attack.

[D4rkh0rus]

Ill forget poisons, but im planning to use death attack when the situation calls for it (we kinda are wanted by higher autorithies... yep)

Even though its not optimal, Im bent on taking at least 3 lvls of factotum and 9 lvls of assassin (Im bent on using Death attack because the campaign will call for it, and the DM has House ruled that a successful Death Attack will be so masterfully made that no one around will notice it.. until the body is interacted with, or if it falls down/etc)

He has also Ruled that cunning surge is only once per round.

Is swashbucker 3 good for a melee finesse build? or not that great. Im trying to wedge it in, but I've no idea what to move/remove.

Right now the Build is This... And my group is starting at lvl 4
1 -Fact 1
2 -Fact 2
3 -Fact 2/cloistered cleric 1 (cleric for the travel devotion/pseudo pounce and TU uses to fuel it)
4 -Fact 3/CC 1
5 -Fact 3/CC1/Fi1 (Fighter for +1 bab to get +6 at lvl 9, Finesse and hit and run tactics)
6 -Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As1
7 -Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As2
8 -Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As3
9 -Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As4
10-Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As4/ss1 (swordsage for the assassin stance and a jaunt maneuver.)
11-Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As4/ss1/ut1
12-Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As4(5)/ss1/ut2 (Uncanny trickster for some skill points /BaB buffer on assassin)
13-Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As5(6)/ss1/ut2
14-Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As6(7)/ss1/ut2
15-Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As7(8)/ss1/ut2
16-Fact 3/CC1/Fi1/As7(9)/ss1/ut3 (3rd level of UT for a second BaB Buffer and skills)

17-20 dont really matter that much, ill just fill it on the fly. But probably a level of Exemplar for skill mastery and something else...

Feats are
1- Keen intellect (i plan on outright dumping wisdom for other stats), Darkstalker, Two weapon fighting (ill be getting the TWF gloves)
3 - Strength Devotion (extra attack)
5 - (fighter feat) Weapon finesse
6 - Craven
9 - Snap Kick
12 - Shadow Blade
15 - Greater Two Weapon Fighting

He would be a skill focused character, Outside of combat he would be able to hide/disguise and bluff his way to stuff. He would have some points in forgery for falsifying documents and in the case of an assassination mission, the Dm Houserule allows him to kill one person without effectively entering combat. (a la Assassin's creed).

In combat I would try and get a lesser rod of extend spell and in the first round position/hide and extend a wraithstrike, second round I would move with travel dev and strike with a ton of touch melee attacks delivering sneak attack (We have access to weapon augment crystals). Third round onwards I would either wraithstrike as a swift action and rape away, or hide and repeat that method if there are no nearby enemies.


So. What do you guys think? Are there any fatal flaws? Anythign that could be done better while following my 3 wishes (Factotum lvls, 9 lvls of assassin, Melee). I'm sure there is.


(In terms of optimization, the group aside from 1 player is pretty well optimized)

Again, Thank you GitP community for all the help and opinions you guys bring.
~h0rus.

[Nihilarian]

Apparently there's an Assassin Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0). Post 9 talks about Death Attacks.

EDIT: While I'm at it, there's a Poison Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2714.0) as well.

[D4rkh0rus]

I've read all of the handbooks... All of them... Even the basket weaving one. Just looking on people's opinions.

[D4rkh0rus]

Not many people that wanna touch this it seems. Im trying to decide between starting scores, if anyone wants to help me out...

I decided on Lesser tiefling, the DM allowed it.

I was thinking of
Str 10 (10)
Dex 16 (18)
Con 14 (14)
Int 16 (18)
Wis 8 (8)
Cha 12 (10)

But I was wondering, should I go for

Str 8 (8)
Dex 16 (18)
Con 12 (12)
Int 18 (20)
Wis 8 (8)
Cha 10 (8)

Or

Str 8 (8)
Dex 14 (16)
Con 14 (14)
Int 18 (20)
Wis 8 (8)
Cha 12 (10)

(I can add any +0 La template, as long as the creature stays medium sized.)

(the int bump is cuz Id get a bump of +1 to all Dex, Str, Int and wis skills (cuz of keen intellect)
+1 DC on death attack, an extra spell, and 1 skill point (which will go on UMD, I have no idea how the DM will be doing it, but its gonna be a "magic is illegal" type of campaign, so what few items we find will be after social hunting and with a big price tag... or so im guessing. Thats why I didnt included UMD, cant use them if you dont have them...)

Which other stat distribution would help?
(Wis can be kept at 8, im not gonna use the cloistered cleric's 1st lvl spells or wands, and If i do I would eventually get an item to get the wisdom needed... and will saves/skills are keyed off int due to Keen int.)

Its gonna be a Melee (finesse) focused assassin.

[D4rkh0rus]

Bumpity bump.