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View Full Version : Half Celestial Rework (Need Input)



LordAshenshield
2013-12-04, 07:42 PM
Ok so one of my players has used the Half Celestial template. However he didn't want their Spelllike abilities as it didn't match his characters fluff. So in exchange for:
Spell-Like Abilities

A half-celestial with an Int or Wis score of 8 or higher has a cumulative number of spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature's HD (or the caster level of the base creature's spell-like abilities, whichever is higher).
HD Abilities
1–2 Protection from evil 3/day, bless
3–4 Aid, detect evil
5–6 Cure serious wounds, neutralize poison
7–8 Holy smite, remove disease
9–10 Dispel evil
11–12 Holy word
13–14 Holy aura 3/day, hallow
15–16 Mass charm monster
17–18 Summon monster IX (celestials only)
19–20 Resurrection

He wanted a Goliath like Powerful Build and a +2 or +4 Natural Armor bonus.

Is this a good idea or not? To me Natural Armor is not that big of a deal and Powerful Build just lets him use Large weapons rather then Medium for his Dwarf.

Is this to much or too little I do not want to gimp him out either I know the +4 to three Ability scores and +2 to the three remaining is good but still.

T.G. Oskar
2013-12-04, 10:13 PM
It depends on what are his plans for the build. Exchanging one ability for another regarding the Half-Celestial template is possible (one of the NPC Planar Allies of the Celestial Paragons in Book of Exalted Deeds "traded" its wings for the ability to "paint the future"), but there's lots of variables that determine the effectiveness of the change.

At first glance, your player is trading the equivalent of two 9th level spells for Powerful Build, to mention the abilities with the most power. Summon Monster IX once per day, without any requirements, is pretty powerful as it allows you to summon several nice creatures (a Couatl, for example, or 1d2 Lillends) which bring lots of power, and Resurrection...well, it's not exactly a 9th level spell, but it has no material cost either (you're saving the equivalent of 5,000 gp per day if you use Resurrection pretty often). However, the payoff comes at Epic levels, at most, because of the Level Adjustment of the character; at most, your player's PC will qualify for Mass Charm Monster, though at a weak DC (so it might not be that powerful at all). If you're planning to play at late levels, the trade-off is pretty reasonable (you're sacrificing very powerful spells, since Holy Aura is pretty powerful if buffed correctly) for an early-level boost.

If you're planning to play at low-levels (say, the first six levels only), then the trade-off is bad. Really bad. Powerful Build is mostly used to deal large amounts of damage by wielding a Large 2-handed weapon; at early levels, the damage is more than enough, while at latter levels the damage isn't as important as static damage (4d6+1.5*Str+weapon enhancement bonus with your first two blows won't ever compare to raw Power Attack damage with one blow, or the effect of a raging Barbarian while Pouncing), so the benefit of Powerful Build has a definite diminishing effect. The spells, on the other hand, start off low-powered and get more powerful with time. At most, Powerful Build serves to compensate for the level adjustment of the template, but at 5th level (LA +4 plus your first HD/class level), Powerful Build can still work out nicely (particularly if you have a good Strength bonus, since then you can focus on hitting with a single blow and stack as many bonuses to attack rolls as possible to land off that single hit); the earlier you get access to it, PLUS all the other benefits of the template, the worst.

On the other hand, the boost to NA is negligible, but it's just as powerful at early levels for the same reason: AC is more powerful early on than later on, given the multitude of touch attacks bypassing your NA bonus.

A trade such as this would be reasonable if you intend to remain on mid-level gaming (around 6th to 12th level), since the amount of LA will make the character weaker than the rest of the group, but still capable of contributing with its template benefits. If the campaign is too low-leveled, you'll end up with a character that draws most of its power from the template, but still hold several benefits that make it stand from the norm.

To conclude: if your campaign intends to reach high levels, the trade-off is weaker than you'd think (because the NA and Powerful Build don't "age", or retain their power, as effectively as you'd think); the lower your intended level cap is, the more powerful the character remain, and thus the trade-off becomes more desirable. As an aside: at least your player didn't ask you to replace Smite Evil for the Powerful Build ability (that's a VERY favorable trade-off, since it replaces a 1/day ability with a permanent buff).

LordAshenshield
2013-12-04, 10:18 PM
We are playing at level 8 and going from there.
What would you recommend?