Which PrC is better?

[LordAshenshield]

The Bloodstorm Blade PrC or the Hammer of Moradin PrC they are very similar to one another and bestow much of the same abilities but one focuses solely on Warhammer and the other has a more general overlook.

The Bloodstorm Blade can I believe be taken as early as level 4 while HoM requires at least a level 7 build even if you are using PF and reduce the Rank tax on Craft to 6.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can't get into bloodstorm blade before 6. Getting 8 ranks of balance requires 5 character levels.

That out of the way, there're some qualitative differences that put bloodstorm blade ahead. Most notably there's the fact that his thrown weapon attacks count as melee attacks with all of what that entails.

If you're choosing purely from a mechanical perspective, go with Bloodstorm Blade.

[ngilop]

I personally like the hammer of Moradin better. I think over the base that you can get into the class you get more powerful over those 10 levels..

while if you go more than 2 levels in bloodstorm blade you come out even or maybe even a bit weaker than before.

yes.. you have to wait a few more levels for the hammer.. but in the end i think it it is superior choice.

[LordAshenshield]

I am asking for my player, we are using PF with 3.5 Available.

Because balance is rolled into acrobatics, also with 3.5 recall you have a point increase to your max rank over your level to get 6 ranks in Balance you needed 3 levels.

But thank you.

EDIT: Its 8 ranks which means yes 5 levels

[Rhaegar14]

I personally like the hammer of Moradin better. I think over the base that you can get into the class you get more powerful over those 10 levels..

while if you go more than 2 levels in bloodstorm blade you come out even or maybe even a bit weaker than before.

yes.. you have to wait a few more levels for the hammer.. but in the end i think it it is superior choice.

Actually, for many builds the cutoff for Bloodstorm Blade is level 4. Sure, getting to treat your throwing attacks as melee attacks is all fine and dandy, but you're still pretty useless at range if you can't make a full attack, and Lightning Ricochet at level 4 is when the weapon instantly returns to you (as opposed to the start of your next turn), not to mention that you're no longer burning maneuvers on getting it to come back.

[LordAshenshield]

The character will be 8th level and gestalt
So a 5th level character could get into up to level 3, take his 4th level at 9 and begin taking HoM at level 10
However this means he does not get some of the perks of the HoM till much later.

EDIT: Also which divine class would you recommend to qualify for the HoM?

[EugeneVoid]

Hammer of Moradin is a casting PrC that doesn't advance spell levels...
http://i.imgur.com/EnLzGbv.png

[Red Fel]

Here are the differences that I see.

Bloodstorm Blade: Requires Martial Maneuvers, skill ranks, one feat Grants 7/3/3 saves, d12 HD, 4+Int skills Grants bonus fighter feats Permits multi-target weapon chucking
Hammer of Moradin: Requires divine spellcasting, Dwarf, skill ranks, two feats, BAB, region, patron deity, group affiliation Grants 7/3/7 saves, d10 HD, 2+Int skills Grants DR Grants warhammer chucking, area knockdown, boost to damage based on enemy armor bonus Grants per-day boosts to hammer usage, teleportation
So, what does it all mean?

Well, BSB gives you more versatility. More skill ranks, more usages of class features, and bonus fighter feats, built on top of the already-potent ToB maneuver structure. HoM has a ton of prereqs, including spellcasting (which it promptly abandons), and gives you some potent abilities with a per-day usage that key off of Charisma. Charisma.

Do you think a BSB gives a toot about Charisma? No. He's busy rending face.

Admittedly, the HoM is more rugged, with his standard action knockdown and his stacking DR. But the limited uses on some of the HoM's more trademark abilities hurt. Whereas the BSB can recharge with every encounter. And, if he's build on a Warblade base, he can recharge mid-encounter with a swift action.

I find the BSB just a bit better.

[ngilop]

Here is some more definitive which is better (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0)

Bloodstorm blade

or

Hammer of Moradin

you can see the BsB gets a -1 over all if you do more than a 2 level dip

whilst a Hammer gets a +1


Just look at the Player's guide to Faerun and Tomb of Battle spoilers in the 3rd post.

[LordAshenshield]

This is true and I was curious if anyone knew why Both BSB and HoM abandon their bases? BSB gives no advancements in Maneuvers and HoM gives no divine Spellcasting increases.

Some abilities he seems to like from HoM is things like Power Throw which is its 9th level ability. He also likes some of the Banes and the such for flavor reasons he is a Dwarf of course so he has the race thing down and most PrCs suggest the DM to ignore things like Region if it does not apply to your setting.

BSB is suggested to be a 4 level dip. While HoM might be a slightly better run. Nither give further progression of what is their base values.

[EugeneVoid]

Why not both?

[ngilop]

Its becuase WoTC are pretty stupid.

one can list hundreds of PrCs that fail to live up to what they are supposed todo hence my fixed PrC project. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=65459)case in point reaping mauler is supposed to be about making you an aweosme grappler.. the catch is.. it ends up actually making you worse.


I think the idea behind the hammer was you enter Paladin 8 not fighter /cleric that way the non spell casting progression isn't that big of an offset

[AMFV]

Here is some more definitive which is better (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0)

Bloodstorm blade

or

Hammer of Moradin

you can see the BsB gets a -1 over all if you do more than a 2 level dip

whilst a Hammer gets a +1


Just look at the Player's guide to Faerun and Tomb of Battle spoilers in the 3rd post.

That's also factoring in expected entry. Which is completely different for a BSB as opposed to an HOM. An HOM is entering from a divine caster so it's naturally a loss in power, a BSB is entering from a fighting class, so nowhere to go but up.

[LordAshenshield]

Well I agree to both but he wants help on which to go to first and how long. But the two level BSB dip does seem to make sense. That does cost him the Lightning Ricochet ability which seems to be a very good ability as it allows Full Attack with the thrown weapon.

So either a 2 or 4 level dip in BSB
Then go into HoM

But which Divine spellcaster class to go with, since nither class progresses their maneuvers or spells one side is gonna lose out.

[Feint's End]

It comes down to what you actually want to do ... do you want to throw a lot (and have a stronger chassis) go Bloodstorm Blade. .... throwing without the level 4 ability sucks .... it really does.
If you want a really dwarfen warrior who just throws an axe from time to time then take the moradin prc.

I really can't see the point argueing between the two. Do you want a thrower? Pick BsB. Do you want a warrior? Pick the moradin prc.

[LordAshenshield]

HoM actually focuses on using a Warhammer not an axe. It grants Banes to Goblins, Drows, and Giants allows for a Power Strike that does a 60 ft line that hits all enemies in the line rolling attacks on each.

He can throw further then the BSB and adds x2 Str (Which he has Boatloads of.. not kidding at level 8 he has a 28 Str) to damage which thanks to BSB would be to his Thrown version too.

[Feint's End]

HoM actually focuses on using a Warhammer not an axe. It grants Banes to Goblins, Drows, and Giants allows for a Power Strike that does a 60 ft line that hits all enemies in the line rolling attacks on each.

He can throw further then the BSB and adds x2 Str (Which he has Boatloads of.. not kidding at level 8 he has a 28 Str) to damage which thanks to BSB would be to his Thrown version too.

So you want to spend money for as many weapons as you have itteratives? and you can't move after throwing because your weapon returns to the spot you where when initiating the attack? Enemy catching weapon out of the air?

There are just so many things which can go wrong when relying on returning weapons without the level 4 bloodstorm ability ... there really are. The strength bonus is nice and all, but it is a much more expensive build on a weaker basis.

So I'd probably suggest something like 3 level cleric, 1 fighter, 1 warblade, 4 BSB, 10 Moradin, +1 class of choice

don't throw without bloodstorm blade 4 (except your are a whisperknife master thrower maybe ... but even then you should use Bloodstorm blade 4 eventually)

edit: since you use pf maybe use the oracle instead of the cleric for less MAD (could also make for some awesome fluff) ... just drop the fighter level.

[LordAshenshield]

This is a Gestalt build and we have access to a feat called Lost Tradition which allows you to change your casting stat to whatever, his is gonna be strength.

So he was planning to do something like Divine Caster 5/BSB 3 // Swordsage 2/Warblade 6
I do rule kinda weird on the ranks for skills when transferring it to PF. Normally I reduce it down to the next clearest level.

So at 9th level he can finish his BSB at level 4, and then begin going on with his HoM

How.. should he do that on Divine side or Maneuver side?

[Feint's End]

This is a Gestalt build and we have access to a feat called Lost Tradition which allows you to change your casting stat to whatever, his is gonna be strength.

So he was planning to do something like Divine Caster 5/BSB 3 // Swordsage 2/Warblade 6
I do rule kinda weird on the ranks for skills when transferring it to PF. Normally I reduce it down to the next clearest level.

So at 9th level he can finish his BSB at level 4, and then begin going on with his HoM

How.. should he do that on Divine side or Maneuver side?

Well in a gestalt build he should consider packing the whole throwing package on one side. Like going Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Hammer 10/ Warblade 1// Divine Caster 20 (for 9ths mainly)

Just buff up and kick ass.

[vhfforever]

I've played both, and have to lean more toward Bloodstorm Blade from a mechanics standpoint. I love the flavor of HoM, though.

But, if you're doing HoM entry, I'd have to suggest the Con-stacking AC Buffing entry that goes Cleric (Dwarven Substitution Levels) 4 / Ranger 2 / Deepwarden 2 / Runesmith Battlesmith 1. Bonus damage to hammers, Con to AC, more skills, and the ability to make your own magic equipment. It's a level slower to enter, but tht doesn't make much of a difference.

Put all your Warblade and few BSB levels on the other side, and then advance into more Cleric or make a convincing argument for Ordained Champion afterward.

[LordAshenshield]

And how do you recommend for this build to gain Arcane spellcasting? Runesmith requires level one arcane casting, if this is built on the Cleric casting system Runesmith wouldn't be possible without a dip into something with Arcane.

[Greenish]

And how do you recommend for this build to gain Arcane spellcasting? Runesmith requires level one arcane casting, if this is built on the Cleric casting system Runesmith wouldn't be possible without a dip into something with Arcane.Why would you want Runesmith if you're not going for arcane casting? The point of the PrC is to bypass ASF (which doesn't apply to divine spells in the first place) and it only advances arcane casting.

[LordAshenshield]

That was my point, I didn't understand Runesmith in a Build that is mostly a Divine caster or Initiator class build, also not sure why Ranger either. Not a bad class by any means but not really seeing why a 2 level dip.

[zilonox]

Since he is a gestalt character, he might have some room for bloodline levels. According to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317990), it could boost his IL. And if you take the greater Titan bloodline, then he could wield a gargantuan warhammer at 12th level. Now what dwarf would be opposed to that? :smallbiggrin:

[LordAshenshield]

Well from what I understand he wants his character to be more loosely build on Thor so the one handed warhammer is the idea, I think he just likes the throwing a giant hammer at people's face theme more then smashing people with a large hammer. Though admittedly it is more interesting.

I do not see how you get that size though? I mean Medium jumps to Large then to Huge, then to Gargantuan.

Also as a trade off he is a Half Celestial and has taken off his Spell like abilities in trade for his Powerful Build racial trait and Natural Armor Increase.

So does that stack?

[Red Fel]

And if you take the greater Titan bloodline, then he could wield a gargantuan warhammer at 12th level. Now what dwarf would be opposed to that? :smallbiggrin:

This particularly. Since your player wants to run a Thor archetype (seems everyone is, nowadays) having a Titan bloodline makes a lot of sense. Titans are massive, epic-leveled, and fall just short of deities. It makes sense that a Thor character would be able to trace its lineage to a just-short-of-god. Further, the powers from a Titan Bloodline (Major) make sense - boosts to Str and Con, free Power Attack and Improved Sunder, natural armor and DR, and the ability to wield Gargantuan weapons as if they were toys, and that's hardly even the entire list.

Admittedly, a Major Bloodline is a substantial xp expenditure, and there is some ambiguity as to whether Bloodline Levels count as actual levels or simply xp sinks. Still, this seems to fit the character concept really well.

[LordAshenshield]

Yeah I agree it fits very well... stop giving him ideas please.. oh god how I am gonna have to beat this guy down lol.

[LordAshenshield]

He is looking at maybe doing this build.

I need insight on a suggestion for him either yes or no and maybe input.
Cleric 10//Half Celestial 1/Warblade 2/Deepwarden 2/BSB 4/HoM 1
But this build Requires feats and ranks
Point Blank Shot (BSB)
Iron Will
Weapon Focus (Warhammer) (HoM for Both)
Endurance (Deepwarden)

Out of 5 feats using the PF feat progression he loses 4 to build this build.

Is it worth it?

[Red Fel]

He is looking at maybe doing this build.

I need insight on a suggestion for him either yes or no and maybe input.
Cleric 10//Half Celestial 1/Warblade 2/Deepwarden 2/BSB 4/HoM 1
But this build Requires feats and ranks
Point Blank Shot (BSB)
Iron Will
Weapon Focus (Warhammer) (HoM for Both)
Endurance (Deepwarden)

Out of 5 feats using the PF feat progression he loses 4 to build this build.

Is it worth it?

First question: Half-Celestial 1? Is that a PF thing? The Half-Celestial template from 3.5 is +4 LA (but can be bought off). Is PF's different?

Second: How are you meeting Deepwarden's +5 BAB requirement at level 4?

Third: You've only got 10 levels of Gestalt there. Are you not planning the other 10?

I won't even mention skill rank requirements, because that's entire hideous ball of wax to get into. But I'm not sure you're able to meet Deepwarden's skill prereqs with this build either.

[LordAshenshield]

Well PF does away with LA just their CR increases and such. So that is how I am working it.
Also I told him that before he cannot take HoM this level but next he can only take to level 9 at level 20

Also 1+3+2+4=10 and Cleric 10 on the other side is 10 on either side.

As far as skill ranks I downgrade them a bit given that the 3.5 Ranks are given a 3 point adjustment so at 1rst level a character can have a 4 skill max but in PF its your max rank is your character level or ECL

[vhfforever]

Yeah, that's because I was typing without checking my references. Battlesmith, not Runesmith. Post edited.