Shadow blade vs. Dervish Dance

[Haelfyr]

I remember a few years back people saying that the shadow blade feat from ToB wasn't worth the two feats required to make it functional. Playing pathfinder with the Magus using dervish dance for a dex build, you see people running around yelling that dumping str for dex is unfair.

I don't think that dervish dance is mechanically worse (Sorry, I meant better. Shadow Blade should be better than DD) than shadow blade, they are fairly equivalent as far as requirements go, but why is there the change in opinion?

Is it because 3.5 characters had fewer feats to monkey around with? Or is it that DD has a lot of synergy with the Magus (which is probably what you are going to see it on the most), and people don't like combat classes to have nice things?

Any opinions? Or were the opinions from when I was reading up on shadow blade just wrong :P

[Snowbluff]

I don't think that dervish dance is mechanically worse than shadow blade, they are fairly equivalent as far as requirements go, but why is there the change in opinion?


Well, to start with this is really off. A single dip into a class would grant the prereqs, and Shadow Blade let's you add your Str. Furthermore, the prereqs give you a skill, a handy stance, and the feat itself has a much better range of weapons to work with. This includes the spiked chain.

DD has no real synergy with Magus, the requirements just happen to line up and it reduces the Magus' MAD.

[Akal Saris]

#1 reason: DD has a lot of synergy with the Magus as you called it
#2: people sometimes vastly over-estimate the value of SAD attributes. You see this a lot with paladin/sorcerer mixes, for example.
#3: sure, people don't like combat classes to have nice things (see also: magus is OP, swordsage is OP, etc.)
#4: feats in PF are generally less powerful than many 3.5 feats, and you get more, so it's not as big of a power shift
#5: Str-based characters in 3.5 were stronger than Dex-based ones due to the 3.5 version of power attack, particularly when combined with pounce, leap attack, shock trooper, etc. So the relative value of dex-based characters to str-based was different from PF.
#6: I think you are forgetting that shadow blade wasn't panned all that hard in the first place. It was a decent feat to get on TWF builds, just not a must-have.

Ironically, I think that in a mixed 3.5/PF game, shadow blade is a better feat than Dervish Dance, since it applied to more weapons and serves as a prerequisite for other feats.

[Haelfyr]

Hmm. Maybe it wasn't panned as hard as I thought, or maybe not here, but I'm pretty sure I remember someone suggesting not picking up shadow blade under any circumstance. Also people that were making the "Magus is OP" argument are just being ridiculous.

[Drachasor]

It's a combination of more feats in PF and the fact that the DD restriction on the Magus is something he has to do already. Perfect fit.

Unlike a Rogue, a Magus has to also have a pretty good Intelligence score for spells. So they are more MAD. They can either go with a strength build with armor (but they don't get Heavy Armor until after 10th level), or they can go with a Dex build. Mathematically, the Dex-build using DD is flat-out better than any other option. Oh, and since they can crit with spellstrike (critting with their spell damage) the scimitar is one of the best weapons.

It's not OP. However, in PF it is bloody boring. At least with Shadow Hand you had a decent assortment of weapons and options and it did more. DD is boring as heck, restrictive, and combines with the Magus's overly restrictive design to make builds even more bland. Want to make a Hexcrafter Magus and attack people with your hair? Int to attack/damage, crit of x2/20, and reach isn't bad (though 1 minute/level per day can be limiting). Oh wait, the Magus can't do that because they need a weapon IN THEIR HAND for Spellcombat (one of their main features). Same with using a two-handed weapon, no option for that. It's like they want to make one way better than all the others.

Also, it does make Dex a super-stat. I don't know why it is always Dex that gets this. Dex already does a lot, but it seems like getting it to do more is easier than getting other stats to do more. With Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma, you're going to have to take class levels to get them to do more.

So it is more that it just makes an already powerful stat even more powerful. Combine that with it being the most mechanically powerful for the Magus and bloody boring. That's all.

Eh, stuff like that and how they issue what should be errata as FAQs (and insist the rules already say what they want) are why I have more than a little disdain for the paizo team.

[gr8artist]

I made a character with Dervish Dance, because Dex to damage rolls seemed like a good plan. And then I found the agile weapon property, which does exactly that. An agile +1 rapier will do everything the scimitar will, and it saves you a feat.

[Drachasor]

I made a character with Dervish Dance, because Dex to damage rolls seemed like a good plan. And then I found the agile weapon property, which does exactly that. An agile +1 rapier will do everything the scimitar will, and it saves you a feat.

Yeah. So with a +1 rapier, Agile is worth 6k. With a +2 rapier, adding agile is worth 10k. With a +3, adding agile is worth 14k. Then it is 18k, then 22k, etc.

Sometimes a feat is a heck of a lot cheaper.

[Red Fel]

Yeah. So with a +1 rapier, Agile is worth 6k. With a +2 rapier, adding agile is worth 10k. With a +3, adding agile is worth 14k. Then it is 18k, then 22k, etc.

Sometimes a feat is a heck of a lot cheaper.

A feat is almost never cheaper.

A feat is a priceless, finite resource. Gold can start to rain at higher levels, but short of Dark Chaos Shuffle and similar cheese, your feats are your feats, and they're limited.

[Drachasor]

A feat is almost never cheaper.

A feat is a priceless, finite resource. Gold can start to rain at higher levels, but short of Dark Chaos Shuffle and similar cheese, your feats are your feats, and they're limited.

Not really. Especially in Pathfinder where you get a feat every odd level. It's easy enough to have a feat to spare for a Magus.

Even in 3.5 there was a price for feats. I believe the figure usually given was maybe 10k (or was it 20k?). In any case, feats aren't priceless, and they are cheaper in PF.

An agile weapon isn't really worth it for a Magus, imho. He'd get more mileage out of Spellstoring, for instance.

[Vaz]

That is 3.0 grandfathered in, not 3.5-- and involves Custom Magic Items. It is essentially a DM only tool. It is like relying on a build which has LA buy off.

[Greenish]

That is 3.0 grandfathered in, not 3.5-- and involves Custom Magic Items. It is essentially a DM only tool. It is like relying on a build which has LA buy off.Did you post in the right thread?

[Drachasor]

That is 3.0 grandfathered in, not 3.5-- and involves Custom Magic Items. It is essentially a DM only tool. It is like relying on a build which has LA buy off.

I'm not saying you could craft an item with any feat you wanted. I am just saying that based on a number of magical items that gave feats, it is easy to estimate how much a feat is worth. It certainly isn't priceless. Triply so if it just adds damage to melee attacks with one weapon.

[Vaz]

@Greenish: yes.

Feats don't 'cost' scale well. Compare Crescent Moon feat; 6 prerequisites, add on its own 10k cost. That there is 70k to simply make a free disarm attempt, as long as you have a Dagger and Longsword which both hit.

Compare that to say Practised Spellcaster (20k), Bind Vestige, Shape Soulmeld/Open Chakra, Magical Training, Wild Talent, Extra Spell, LEADERSHIP and it soon becomes stupid to 'cost'