long sword as light weapon [3.5]

[Raezeman]

Hello there,

the title says it all: What ways are there to have a medium sized longsword count as a light weapon for a medium sized creature. I'm talking feats, class features, magic, anything goes.

[Greenish]

Why?

I mean, there's Feycraft weapon template that makes a longsword finessable (but reduces damage), there's Oversized TWF feat for reducing TWF penalties, but I can't think of anything for flat-out changing a longsword into a light weapon.

[Red Fel]

Closest I can think of is Monkey Grip, but that's for using larger weapons as a smaller creature. I don't think it quite applies, although perhaps you could make the case.

[ddude987]

Have a nice dm approve this. Otherwise, use a short sword? On average only 1 less damage.

[DarkEternal]

Or if you are so keen on making it exactly that kind of weapon, take an Elven court blade.

It's a 1d8 exotic weapon that has an 18-20 crit modifier.

[Studoku]

Closest I can think of is Monkey Grip, but that's for using larger weapons as a smaller creature. I don't think it quite applies, although perhaps you could make the case.
It doesn't.

Monkey grip would let OP wield a large shortsword as a light weapon (still with a -2 penalty) but I doubt that's what he's after. Monkey Grip is a godawful feat.

[Greenish]

Or if you are so keen on making it exactly that kind of weapon, take an Elven court blade.

It's a 1d8 exotic weapon that has an 18-20 crit modifier.Elven Courtblade has 1d10 damage and is a two-hander, so, probably not what OP wanted.

You're thinking of Elven Thinblade, which is basically a 1d8 damage exotic rapier. I guess if OP wants something finessable and really likes d8's, it works.

[Nightraiderx]

Strongarm Bracers may do the trick.

[DarkEternal]

Elven Courtblade has 1d10 damage and is a two-hander, so, probably not what OP wanted.

You're thinking of Elven Thinblade, which is basically a 1d8 damage exotic rapier. I guess if OP wants something finessable and really likes d8's, it works.

Yeah, that's the one. Good weapon, though you'll need to burn a feat to use it.

[Greenish]

Yeah, that's the one. Good weapon, though you'll need to burn a feat to use it.Eh, the only advantages it has over a rapier are one point more average damage (meh) and the ability to be two-handed for PA (might be useful, but if you're two-handing, courtblade would be better).

Getting a bunch of weapons with Imp. Weapon Familiarity isn't too bad, though.

[Red Fel]

Eh, the only advantages it has over a rapier are one point more average damage (meh) and the ability to be two-handed for PA (might be useful, but if you're two-handing, courtblade would be better).

Getting a bunch of weapons with Imp. Weapon Familiarity isn't too bad, though.

Of course, if you play a Warblade, you only need to take EWP once, and can then apply it wherever you bloody well please. Why take a group of exotic weapons, when you could take them all?

Thank you, Weapon Aptitude.

[Darrin]

Eh, the only advantages it has over a rapier are one point more average damage (meh) and the ability to be two-handed for PA (might be useful, but if you're two-handing, courtblade would be better).


It also "counts" as a Longsword for the purposes of Weapon Focus/Specialization and Improved Critical. So if you need Weapon Focus (Longsword) for something like Dervish, it may help there.



Getting a bunch of weapons with Imp. Weapon Familiarity isn't too bad, though.

If you never use those weapons, not so much.

A feycraft longsword will work, but then you're paying 1500 GP for something that is almost identical to a shortsword (well... cutlass or straightblade, technically). Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC) would be better, as it lets you wield a large-sized shortsword/cutlass/straightblade/feycraft longsword without spending a feat.

[Raezeman]

The reason for this is making a build that indeed includes dervish and weapon finesse, also wild runner and champion of corellon + two weapon fighting, maybe a little bit tempest. Maybe i could just as easily ask:

Is there a good build out there that focusses on Dexterity for melee attack and damage?

[AstralFire]

The reason for this is making a build that indeed includes dervish and weapon finesse, also wild runner and champion of corellon + two weapon fighting, maybe a little bit tempest. Maybe i could just as easily ask:

Is there a good build out there that focusses on Dexterity for melee attack and damage?

Shadow Hand focused Swordsages. Dervish was a good PrC when it was released, but its main draw is obsoleted by the commonality of either pounce or classes which don't need pounce, these days.

[Raezeman]

i'm still trying to get a basic view of what the soulmelds are capable off, but inspecting tome of battle is next on my to do list.

[SiuiS]

Closest I can think of is Monkey Grip, but that's for using larger weapons as a smaller creature. I don't think it quite applies, although perhaps you could make the case.

depends. I believe the thing about all swords being differently sized variants of a Sword is explicitly a variant. Which is too bad, because there is some ridiculous cheese in there; Taking the monkey grip feat chain to get wield huge weapons, and wielding "huge" bastard swords, which are actually sunblades, and used as short swords, so you end up with colossal or colossal+ greatswords. Just for kicks.


It doesn't.

Monkey grip would let OP wield a large shortsword as a light weapon (still with a -2 penalty) but I doubt that's what he's after. Monkey Grip is a godawful feat.

It really is, but it can be fun. I was able to work out fighting with a greatsword in one hand and a tower shield in the other, and effectively shield bash. It wasn't optimal by any stretch but boy could that DM not figure out how to handle me! :smallbiggrin:


i'm still trying to get a basic view of what the soulmelds are capable off, but inspecting tome of battle is next on my to do list.

Soul melds can achieve many things! Basically, they are a class feature that allows you to create temporary permanent magic items to fill specific slots. You can free up those slots with feats, and use your other class feature to improve them in fluid ways.

[Greenish]

The reason for this is making a build that indeed includes dervish and weapon finesse, also wild runner and champion of corellon + two weapon fighting, maybe a little bit tempest.Well, EWP (Elven Thinblade) would get you to Champion, and Oversized TWF would negate the penalty for wielding an one-hander in offhand instead of a light weapon. A level in Exotic Weapon Master would allow you to get 2:1 PA from both weapons.

Champion of Corellon Larethian is really feat-intensive to enter, though it's decent enough for a melee PrC once you're in. Wild Runner is quite nifty with Pounce, Scent, and Dex-heavy rage.


We can do better, even without resorting to ToB. Start with Ranger 2 for skills, Track, and TWF. Grab Imp. Weapon Familiarity and Oversized TWF for Elven Thinblade. Go for Barbarian with Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (rage boosts Str and Dex) and Spirit Lion Totem ACFs for a level or two (two gets you Uncanny Dodge, which I like) Get Extra Rage. Add a level of Ranger for Endurance. Enter Wildrunner (it's a nice PrC). Might grab Extra Rage if it works on Primal Scream (it is called frenzy in the description). At 7th level, dip EWM, grab Uncanny Blow.

Enter Ferocity and Frenzy at the same time for large boost to Dex (and other things). Season with normal charger candies as appropriate. Hit things until they fall.


[Edit]: I'm assuming you want to be elf. If that negotiable, there are other options. Also, above thing needs quite a bit of feats. A fighter (exoticist hit and run fighter, preferably) is probably in order.

[Crake]

If you want a weapon to qualify as another kind of weapon for the purpose of feats and the like, there's always the aptitude weapon ability?

[Raezeman]

Well, EWP (Elven Thinblade) would get you to Champion, and Oversized TWF would negate the penalty for wielding an one-hander in offhand instead of a light weapon. A level in Exotic Weapon Master would allow you to get 2:1 PA from both weapons.

Champion of Corellon Larethian is really feat-intensive to enter, though it's decent enough for a melee PrC once you're in. Wild Runner is quite nifty with Pounce, Scent, and Dex-heavy rage.


We can do better, even without resorting to ToB. Start with Ranger 2 for skills, Track, and TWF. Grab Imp. Weapon Familiarity and Oversized TWF for Elven Thinblade. Go for Barbarian with Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (rage boosts Str and Dex) and Spirit Lion Totem ACFs for a level or two (two gets you Uncanny Dodge, which I like) Get Extra Rage. Add a level of Ranger for Endurance. Enter Wildrunner (it's a nice PrC). Might grab Extra Rage if it works on Primal Scream (it is called frenzy in the description). At 7th level, dip EWM, grab Uncanny Blow.

Enter Ferocity and Frenzy at the same time for large boost to Dex (and other things). Season with normal charger candies as appropriate. Hit things until they fall.


[Edit]: I'm assuming you want to be elf. If that negotiable, there are other options. Also, above thing needs quite a bit of feats. A fighter (exoticist hit and run fighter, preferably) is probably in order.

There is some GREAT advice in here, especially the exotic weapon master stuff. i'm going to look into this when i have some more time.

[Red Fel]

i'm still trying to get a basic view of what the soulmelds are capable off, but inspecting tome of battle is next on my to do list.

The short answer on Soulmelds is this: Soulmelds give you a list of useful powers that can be swapped out from one day to the next. They can also be inflated, with a resource called essentia, to increase the various bonuses they give you. Finally, assuming they're in a slot that doesn't contain a magic item, you can bind a soulmeld for an additional bonus. That's the Reader's Digest Condensed Version.

Tome of Battle is Melee Done Right. While Magic of Incarnum brings in some wonderful options for diversity and dips, Tome of Battle is your go-to book for making melee relevant. Make it a priority, and you won't regret it.

[Raezeman]

guys guys, you don't have to explain HOW soulmelds and essential works, i get that. I meant i need to get an idea of what each soulmeld individually does, and which class has access to which soulmeld. After that i'll do the same things with manoeuvres.

[Red Fel]

Oh, you mean like this list of Soulmelds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217064)?

[Raezeman]

A level in Exotic Weapon Master would allow you to get 2:1 PA from both weapons.


Wait, i'm confused. I take it the stunt you are talking about is
Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus ×2 instead of his Strength bonus ×1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as twohanded for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls.

But doesn't it there state that you get 2:1 on power attack with a one-handed exotic weapon when wielding with 2 hands? But you always get the 2:1 bonus when wielding a one-handed weapon in 2 hands (says so in power attack itself). Or is that part of when wielding in two hands only for the strength x2?

enlighten me please

[Vaz]

Eh, the only advantages it has over a rapier are one point more average damage (meh) and the ability to be two-handed for PA (might be useful, but if you're two-handing, courtblade would be better).

Getting a bunch of weapons with Imp. Weapon Familiarity isn't too bad, though.

You can 2 Hand PA rapiers anyway, you just don't get the Strength Bonus added, but 2 Handed Power Attack nets you the normal return.

[Raezeman]

Oh, you mean like this list of Soulmelds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217064)?

YES!
yes yes yes yes yes!
that will help me out a lot! Thanks mate!

[AstralFire]

When wielding in two hands... is part of a separate sentence, and the latter sentence (as you pointed out) is redundant with how the rules are supposed to work all the time anyway. I would read it as giving two separate benefits:

When wielding in two hands, gain Str Mod*2 as a bonus, rather than Str Mod*1.5.
At all times, you gain 2:1 PA with the weapon.

[Greenish]

Or is that part of when wielding in two hands only for the strength x2?That's how I read it, since as you noted, the second sentence would otherwise be meaningless. So the trick has two separate functions, one for two-handing, one for one-handing (which incidentally can make the bastard sword's supposed flexibility actually somewhat useful).

You should probably check with your DM, though.

[Darrin]

That's how I read it, since as you noted, the second sentence would otherwise be meaningless. So the trick has two separate functions, one for two-handing, one for one-handing (which incidentally can make the bastard sword's supposed flexibility actually somewhat useful).


The only other interpretation is that the designer was confused about how Power Attack worked and had no idea what he was talking about... which is, sad to say, probably the more likely scenario.

The other odd quirk to this text is that if sentence #2 is true for one-handed weapons, then so is sentence #1: If you have Power Attack and are wielding a one-handed exotic weapon with one hand, then it counts as being wielded two-handed for both Power Attack and for determining your Str bonus multiplier.

[Barmoz]

This brings up a question I have about the Dervish class, the slashing blades ability specifies scimitars, but every other piece of text in the description talks about slashing weapons. Is it intended that the slashing blades ability only applies to scimitars, or is that an editing mistake? If your DM rules it applies to longswords as well, that would be one solution.

[AstralFire]

This brings up a question I have about the Dervish class, the slashing blades ability specifies scimitars, but every other piece of text in the description talks about slashing weapons. Is it intended that the slashing blades ability only applies to scimitars, or is that an editing mistake? If your DM rules it applies to longswords as well, that would be one solution.

It's intended that it applies to scimitars, they're thematically related to the class, and the scimitar is a slashing version of the Rapier that can't be finessed normally.

[Darrin]

This brings up a question I have about the Dervish class, the slashing blades ability specifies scimitars, but every other piece of text in the description talks about slashing weapons. Is it intended that the slashing blades ability only applies to scimitars, or is that an editing mistake? If your DM rules it applies to longswords as well, that would be one solution.

By Rules As Written (RAW), it only applies to scimitars. Your Weapon Focus prereq can be any slashing weapon, but there's a class feature that encourages you to TWF with scimitars (this was the 2nd or 3rd attempt by the designers to come up with a more workable "Drizzt Clone" ability).

The problem with Slashing Blades is by forcing you to treat scimitars as light weapons, you lose out on any feats/abilities that might work better with one-handed weapons (such as Power Attack). Oversize TWF does the same thing only better: considered light for TWF and Weapon Finesse, but for everything else they are still one-handed weapons.