Your thoughts on my cleric (PEACH)

[questionmark693]

So I'm joining a group that I don't know the optimization level of, but from the way they talked, it didn't seem like they do anything cheesy or superpowered. They have a sorcerer who loves prestidigitation, a druid I know nothing about, a barbarian I know nothing about, and a fighter that used some kind of cleave/whirlwind attack to kill eight goblins in one round, and now the DM is considering nerfing them. Everybody is level three or four, my character is starting at level three. I'm pretty sure I'm only going to be playing for two or three sessions, and they asked me to play a cleric so I obliged.

I rolled the stats 15, 15, 15, 14, 13, 13, and chose to play an elf. 15 (17) dex, 15 wis, 15 (13) con, 14 int, 13 str, 13 cha. I dropped charisma because from what i heard, there aren't really undead involved. I'm level three, and my feats are point blank and precise shot, so I can provide combat support with a bow, given we already have two melee bruiser tanks. I have a masterwork longbow, a pearl of power (first level) and a wand of clw, a healers kit, trail rations, etc. using wbl. I have the war and protection domains.

My spell choices (until I've experienced whats going to be happening and can tailor them) are so far command, cause fear, and shield of faith for lvl 1, and hold person and lesser restoration for lvl2. My domain slots are sanctuary and spiritual weapon.

I am limited to players handbook. Nothing else, not even UA. So what do you guys think of this character? Is my reasoning sound? Nothing is set in stone until wednesday, so I have time to make changes.

[GilesTheCleric]

For a low-op game, what you have seems very appropriate. If the group has never seen/heard of Pearls before, you might swap it for a lesser MM rod, which might be less obvious.

Other things you might add would be masterwork tools - nobody will notice the slightly higher skill checks, and it's a good way to polish off any remaining WBL.

All of your spells are single-target, and allow saves. Mixing it up a little bit (not having all will saves) will help you be more flexible, as will having more BFC spells.

[questionmark693]

Ok, thanks :) Grabbed some mwk tools for knowledge checks (to add some nice fluff to the character, and because it's a module, so I know knowledge checks will show up). I'm afb, so I'll look for different spells later. Unfortunately mm rods are all at least 3k gold, and wbl for a third level is only 2.7, so none of those :/ If the pearl is an issue, would it be worth grabbing a different wand to replace it?

[GilesTheCleric]

You're welcome.

Here's some other spells to consider:
1st: obscuring mist, protection from X
2nd: bear's endurance, shield other, silence, sound burst

The pearl is definitely fine as long as the group isn't going to call it overpowered. Your next best option would be probably be a wand of CLW, probably with fewer charges if you're only going to be in a few sessions (20/50 charges should be more than enough).

[Gwendol]

+1 to obscuring mist. It's very useful. I assume you are a cleric of Corellon and thus have weapon focus (bow) through the war domain?
Other spells to consider: augury, protection from energy, silence (at the level you play it's shutting down casters), shatter.

[eggynack]

bear's endurance
I don't really get bear's endurance, or why it's so often touted as a reasonably good spell. The duration is crazy short, so you're often stuck using it in combat if the situation isn't in your favor (which is going to be most of the time), the actual impact is minimal, and you have to follow it up with actual healing for the con bonus to be meaningful. It's possibly the best one of the lucky charms, apart from bull's strength, which I think can grant bonus spells to aeshkrau illumian wizards, but that's not saying much. The whole line just seems to get a lot more love than it deserves.

[GilesTheCleric]

I don't really get bear's endurance, or why it's so often touted as a reasonably good spell. The duration is crazy short, so you're often stuck using it in combat if the situation isn't in your favor (which is going to be most of the time), the actual impact is minimal, and you have to follow it up with actual healing for the con bonus to be meaningful. It's possibly the best one of the lucky charms, apart from bull's strength, which I think can grant bonus spells to aeshkrau illumian wizards, but that's not saying much. The whole line just seems to get a lot more love than it deserves.

I agree with you for the most part. There's definitely better spells, and that group of spells are a bit overrated. However, in terms of not outshining the party, it's pretty useful. Also, +4 enhancement at those levels is significant. Even at higher levels, it's money I'm not spending on items for generic +x bonuses, from slots that are losing relevance for in-combat non-BFC spells.

[eggynack]

I agree with you for the most part. There's definitely better spells, and that group of spells are a bit overrated. However, in terms of not outshining the party, it's pretty useful. Also, +4 enhancement at those levels is significant. Even at higher levels, it's money I'm not spending on items for generic +x bonuses, from slots that are losing relevance for in-combat non-BFC spells.
I guess that's fair. Still, I see it listed in the druid handbook with, "Bear's Endurance will be your main in-combat healing spell for low levels," and it confuzzles the hell out of me. I think people overestimate the value of ability score bonuses a bit.That aeshkrau thing is cool though. I don't think I see that one mentioned much, if at all. I've never been quite clear on the mechanics of stat boosters in conjunction with spell preparation when that line about it not working isn't present.

[Zweisteine]

The cleric build looks good. I'd agree that some more variety in spells might be valuable.

My one question, which is not about the cleric build, would be why a level 4 fighter would be nerfed for killing 8 goblins? Great Cleave is meant for fighters of level 4 and up (requires +4 BaB and two other feats), and basically exists for the sole purpose of mass-killing weak enemies.

A basic goblin has AC 15 and HP 5. A fourth-level fighter with 16 strength, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus, and a masterwork or better greatsword (pretty much standard) has a +8 attack bonus (hits with a 7 or higher) and deals an minimum of 5 damage. It wouldn't be that hard to kill a handful of goblins like that...

The duration is crazy short, so you're often stuck using it in combat [snip], the actual impact is minimal, and you have to follow it up with actual healing for the con bonus to be meaningful. [snip] The whole line just seems to get a lot more love than it deserves.

1. In combat, 1 minute per level is not "crazy short." If combats are lasting longer than that, you probably have a problem, or a party full of tanks, who benefit even more from Bear's Endurance. Bear's Endurance, as well as the other physical ability-boosting spells, are primarily combat buffs.

2. You do not have to use healing spells for the Con increase to grant hit points. +4 Con immediately grants +2 hp per level. It also gives +2 on fortitude saves.

3. As for the entire set of ability-boosting spells: When you get them, they aren't bad. By the time a party reaches higher levels (before 10), they will have items that render the spells redundant (except to give boosts to will or fortitude saves).

Also, Wizards get Bear's Endurance, which allows them to heal themselves at low all levels. Of course, after a point, a [item] of Constitution will work better, and high-level wizards shouldn't have to. resort to self-healing (shouldn't have been hurt in the first place...).

[GilesTheCleric]

I guess that's fair. Still, I see it listed in the druid handbook with, "Bear's Endurance will be your main in-combat healing spell for low levels," and it confuzzles the hell out of me. I think people overestimate the value of ability score bonuses a bit.That aeshkrau thing is cool though. I don't think I see that one mentioned much, if at all. I've never been quite clear on the mechanics of stat boosters in conjunction with spell preparation when that line about it not working isn't present.

I'm also confused by that line. I will admit to not having read the druid handbook, but if it's like most other handbooks, then it's not necessarily correct for all suggestions. Everyone has their play preferences, and all players have slightly different expectations from the game.

I just spent a few minutes trying to justify it to myself, and I can't. BE gives a guaranteed +6 hp cap, but CLW at 3 is 4-11, with an average of 7.5. I guess that it does increase your cap, so for those that a full 11-point heal might be wasted on, it makes the CLW more efficient.

Tricks like using things like illumians are part of system mastery, not guides, I think. Guides are directed at helping those with less mastery catch up, while system mastery allows you to efficiently tune builds or obtain particular effects.

[Zweisteine]

I see it listed in the druid handbook with, "Bear's Endurance will be your main in-combat healing spell for low levels," and it confuzzles the hell out of me.

Which handbook?

Most handbook's do dip into personal opinion, so your preference may differ from that of the author.

Also, yeah, that's weird. Cure Light wounds = healing.

[Karnith]

Which handbook?
This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.msg35415#msg35415) handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940); the explanation being that it keeps "people alive until you can use Vigor." Um, okay, sure.

[eggynack]

All (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) of the (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1558.0) handbooks (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1087841). The spell list got recycled between all three of them, and weird errors ended up in all of them, like dessicate being listed as dealing 1d6 damage/level. It's at least a lot of the reason that I've been making my own.



1. In combat, 1 minute per level is not "crazy short." If combats are lasting longer than that, you probably have a problem, or a party full of tanks, who benefit even more from Bear's Endurance. Bear's Endurance, as well as the other physical ability-boosting spells, are primarily combat buffs.
It will always last for one combat, pretty much no matter what. However, it will rarely last for more than one, and having it up before combat is tricky. That means that, in what is often even worse than a spell cost, bear's endurance has an action cost. Spending an action and a spell for this is just not worth it.


2. You do not have to use healing spells for the Con increase to grant hit points. +4 Con immediately grants +2 hp per level. It also gives +2 on fortitude saves.
And then, after the duration ends, the HP goes away. As the spell so politely puts it, "Hit points gained by a temporary increase in Constitution score are not temporary hit points. They go away when the subject’s Constitution drops back to normal. They are not lost first as temporary hit points are." If the target wouldn't otherwise be dying if you didn't cast your spell, and if a fortitude save didn't happen, then bear's endurance is basically worthless. If they would be dying, then you need to cast a healing spell lest they die when the duration ends. Anyways, I think that addressing those two points addresses your other points too, so I won't repeat myself.

Edit: As a note, dictum mortuum's quickstart druid handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/quickstart-druid.html) lacks that claim, and is relatively independent of the others, though it is, by design, rather lacking in detail about spell selection.

[Zweisteine]

I see your point, but it could still be useful. Not the best, but useful.

Take a low-level Wizard or non-combat Cleric. He goes first, buffs the Fighter, who then can stay on the front line, out of arms reach, and fight ore safely. He might drop to 5 hp, but he kills the enemies, and can be healed afterwards.

I suppose at higher levels, when it grants more than 10 HP... nah, I can't see it anymore...

[eggynack]

I see your point, but it could still be useful. Not the best, but useful.

Take a low-level Wizard or non-combat Cleric. He goes first, buffs the Fighter, who then can stay on the front line, out of arms reach, and fight ore safely. He might drop to 5 hp, but he kills the enemies, and can be healed afterwards.

Perhaps, but then imagine what you could be doing instead. I mean, even at their crappiest, the cleric can cast cure moderate wounds for 12 HP at third level, and that's not even a thing you should be doing much. If in combat healing is bad, then situational in combat healing that requires other spells is a bit on the terrible side. The only way it can be good, in my view, is if you get the drop on your opponents and cast it before combat, but in that situation you've likely won already.

[questionmark693]

He's going to be nerfed because the dm said so. I agree, I think it was a terrible decision, but I didn't want to start this session out by arguing with the DM. I appreciate the spell suggestions, I'll probably go for obscuring mist, and I hadn't considered the idea of silence actually being effective at shutting down casters at this level, so thanks for that as well.

I am a patron of Corellon, yes, so I have weapon focus with the longbow through the war domain. I neglected to mention that I do have a wand of CLW already, with full charges (just in case this goes longer than expected). As for augury, the fail chance seems really high right now, so I kind of want to avoid that. Protection from energy feels like it has a very short duration (half an hour right now) for me to waste a spell slot on, and protection....its a module, so the people we fight might technically be neutral because theyre henchmen or something, so that can be unreliable.

Why should I look at shatter? I agree that I think the plus four enhancement bonus line seems overrated....I don't really much feel the need for that, especially with our obviously op fighter :smallwink:

[LordBiscuit]

I'm just curious, but how is the fighter killing 8 goblins? Unless he's weilding a spiked chain, got completely sarrounded or something, I can't see how cleeve can do that. Whirlwind attack meanwhile requires a bunch of sub standard feats to take and a whirlwind attack cannot be used as an "additional attack" following a cleeve since cleeves only allow additional, basic attacks.

In fact, the basic cleeve only allows 1 additional attack. So he would need Great Cleeve (which I assume he has taken) to do so. Either way, the fighter is a limited niche as it is without restrictions on a minon sweeper, something that is easily solved by either using tougher minons (I recall one terrifying encounter where it was almost entirely zombies, Skeletons of various sizes, just simply because nothing really went down in one firm hit. Even the Frenzied Bezerker took about three/four rounds to murder everything in the last boss room despite slaying a skeletal Orge, several zombies and a Wyvern Zombie. XD) or just not clump a bunch of minons in his face.

Though I suspect that the DM is playing his minons poorly if he is able to kill 8 of them in one go. Inherently cowardly creatures should know better then to be all in his swinging arc.


As for comments about Cleric build, it looks fairly solid considering your limitations. Just as said, I can votch for most of the choices offered. You have a clear idea of what you want to do, it's just the spell lists that need refinement.

I wouldn't worry about healing too much, since while the heal spells are a bit poor, you can manifest them by giving up one of your current spells anyways for being a good aligned character.

[questionmark693]

I don't know that he literally killed eight goblins. We were talking at about three in the morning after working on a film shoot for hours and then packing everything up, and we were all dead, and one girl said something like 'and the fighter killed like eight goblins in one turn', so it easily could've been like three in one turn, then three in the next turn or something, just remembered incorrectly.

Thank you for all the help everybody, I haven't built a character in a really long time, and I don't think of myself as good at optimization or anything close to it, so I really appreciate all the feedback :smallbiggrin:

[LordBiscuit]

I don't know that he literally killed eight goblins. We were talking at about three in the morning after working on a film shoot for hours and then packing everything up, and we were all dead, and one girl said something like 'and the fighter killed like eight goblins in one turn', so it easily could've been like three in one turn, then three in the next turn or something, just remembered incorrectly.

Thank you for all the help everybody, I haven't built a character in a really long time, and I don't think of myself as good at optimization or anything close to it, so I really appreciate all the feedback :smallbiggrin:

Ahhh, I am starting to think she meant "in that fight", that is reasonable since killing minons is kind of what a fighter/barbarian does the best at. And will probably fight anything else given the right buffs.

Yeah, I feel for you. I am actually figuring out what to build if the 3.5 starts up again.

[Gwendol]

Why should I look at shatter? I agree that I think the plus four enhancement bonus line seems overrated....I don't really much feel the need for that, especially with our obviously op fighter :smallwink:

Look at what the spell does:


Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

Sundering any solid object, weighing up to 10 pounds/CL (30 lb in your case, unless I'm mistaken) has countless of uses. Target the enemy spellcasters component pouch, for example, or the rogue's bandolier of potions and acid flasks, or simply an armor or weapon you want to get rid of.

[GilesTheCleric]

Look at what the spell does:



Sundering any solid object, weighing up to 10 pounds/CL (30 lb in your case, unless I'm mistaken) has countless of uses. Target the enemy spellcasters component pouch, for example, or the rogue's bandolier of potions and acid flasks, or simply an armor or weapon you want to get rid of.

It's a great idea, but you might be careful not to over-use it. Otherwise a zealous DM might decide to use the same tactic against you :smalleek: