Rules Debate: Spring Attack plus dual strike

[thefoolish]

Hey, guys. I know this question should be obvious, but I need as many people to agree as possible. I spent an hour and a half trying to argue this.

Question: when using spring attack and you have dual strike, you do not get to use dual strike, correct? Dual strike specifically says it is a standard action and Wizards has said that you cannot use any standard action with spring attack other than one single strike.

His misunderstanding comes from thinking that dual strike counts as one attack just because you make one roll to hit. Please confirm.

Ethan

p.s. Hi! Glad to stop lurking to stop an argument.

[AstralFire]

RAW/RAI, they don't work together, but Dual Strike is a terrible horrible feat that should be printed out on extra pages just to be burned, so I don't see the harm in allowing it to be almost useful once in a while.

[thefoolish]

RAW/RAI, they don't work together, but Dual Strike is a terrible horrible feat that should be printed out on extra pages just to be burned, so I don't see the harm in allowing it to be almost useful once in a while.

I pointed that out, too.

[Particle_Man]

Hey, guys. I know this question should be obvious, but I need as many puerile to agree as possible.

Can I agree without being puerile? :smallsmile:

Anyhow, PHB II specifically has a feat chain to add extra attacks to the Spring Attack maneuver, if that is what floats your player's boat.

[thefoolish]

Can I agree without being puerile? :smallsmile:
.

Stupid phone!

[Greenish]

No, it shouldn't be allowed, for it might tempt some poor unfortunate soul into actually taking Dual Strike and Spring Attack. You should ban both feats. Replace Dual Strike with TWF rules that don't go out of their way to whack people on the noggin, and replace Spring Attack with Run-by Attack (modeled after Fly-by Attack, natch).

[thefoolish]

Just for clarity, because he demands clear answers: are you saying it shouldn't be allowed because that is not how it works? I know the answer, but clarity is a must for this argument.

[Greenish]

To spell it out, Dual Strike requires a standard action. Spring Attack does not allow you make a standard action in the middle of the move (to the chagrin of spellcasters and martial adepts everywhere). Therefore, by the rules, you can't combine them.

[thefoolish]

To spell it out, Dual Strike requires a standard action. Spring Attack does not allow you make a standard action in the middle of the move (to the chagrin of spellcasters and martial adepts everywhere). Therefore, by the rules, you can't combine them.

Thank you. I've told him that a dozen times, but he interprets dual strike as an attack action, despite saying it's a standard action. His logic and I quote: an attack action is a standard action. Dual strike is a standard action where you attack. Dual strike is therefore an attack action.

He also says that since you roll one die to hit that it is just one attack.

[Greenish]

His logic and I quote: an attack action is a standard action. Dual strike is a standard action where you attack. Dual strike is therefore an attack action.Charge is a full-round action where you attack. Full attack is a full-round action where you attack. Charge is therefore a full attack. Yay for free pounce to everyone!

[Edit]: Also, he should probably reread the feat. It repeatedly says things like "Both attacks use the same attack roll to determine success" and "Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each weapon attack".

[olentu]

Thank you. I've told him that a dozen times, but he interprets dual strike as an attack action, despite saying it's a standard action. His logic and I quote: an attack action is a standard action. Dual strike is a standard action where you attack. Dual strike is therefore an attack action.

He also says that since you roll one die to hit that it is just one attack.

Ah, there is the source of the confusion. Spring attack does not use an attack action, rather it uses the attack action.

[Emperor Tippy]

To spell it out, Dual Strike requires a standard action. Spring Attack does not allow you make a standard action in the middle of the move (to the chagrin of spellcasters and martial adepts everywhere). Therefore, by the rules, you can't combine them.

Unless you are a Factotum 8 who uses Cunning Surge to throw extra Standard Actions into the middle of a Spring Attack.

[Curmudgeon]

Dual strike specifically says it is a standard action and Wizards has said that you cannot use any standard action with spring attack other than one single strike.
That's not quite right. What you can use with Spring Attack is the (i.e., just one) "attack action", a term used but never defined in the game. It could be any of the following:

standard action attack
full attack action (the only option using the exact name)
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip
Now, with Spring Attack most of these are problematic. There's no provision for Dual Strike or any other random standard action unless it's described an an "attack action". You also can't take multiple attack actions. However, if you can get an extra move action, you could split that around a full attack action with Spring Attack.

Unless you are a Factotum 8 who uses Cunning Surge to throw extra Standard Actions into the middle of a Spring Attack.
No, that's not going to work. Only one of those (the attack action) can be used in the middle of the move action with Spring Attack. Other standard actions can be used before or after your Spring Attack, but there's just the one attack action per Spring Attack. Neither Spring Attack nor Cunning Surge has a provision for inserting extra standard actions into a Spring Attack.

[thefoolish]

That's not quite right. What you can use with Spring Attack is the (i.e., just one) "attack action", a term used but never defined in the game. It could be any of the following:

standard action attack
full attack action (the only option using the exact name)
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip
Now, with Spring Attack most of these are problematic. There's no provision for Dual Strike or any other random standard action unless it's described an an "attack action". You also can't take multiple attack actions. However, if you can get an extra move action, you could split that around a full attack action with Spring Attack.

No, that's not going to work. Only one of those (the attack action) can be used in the middle of the move action with Spring Attack. Other standard actions can be used before or after your Spring Attack, but there's just the one attack action per Spring Attack. Neither Spring Attack nor Cunning Surge has a provision for inserting extra standard actions into a Spring Attack.

The FAQ clarified by saying you can only get " one attack".

Thank you for your answer. It still answers my question.

[Scow2]

The official ruling on this matter tells me that 3.5's rulebooks really deserve to be burned. Sanity would say "If you're taking both feats, they should be able to work together" not from any Rules Lawyering, but because enforcing that sort of nonsense is a crime against humanity.

The proper answer is "If you continue to argue rules about Spring Attack not working with dual strike, I'm going to shove this rulebook [redacted for sanity]"

[ericgrau]

Spring attack allows an attack. Attacks include not only damage but also tripping, disarming, etc. Grappling too, though this only matters for a handful of huge monsters that can grapple without being grappled (spring attack yoink the PC). Incorporeal creatures can exploit it. Reach can exploit it. Etc.

It is what it is. People will always complain that whatever something does isn't enough. It can be nice and it could do more. It works with some things and not with others.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I agree with the crowd; Dual Strike doesn't work with Spring Attack. Not all attack actions are standard actions, and not all standard actions are attack actions. They're different entities.

Your player might be interested in Bounding Assault (PHBII). It's still a bit limited - as one would expect from the Spring Attack chain - but it approximates what he's trying to do while being entirely rules-legal. Of course, it has a ridiculous BaB prerequisite so he may not qualify yet...

[DarkSonic1337]

Would it be reasonable to houserule that spring attack allows you to take a standard action (other than spellcasting or manifesting if that's too OP) in the middle of your move instead of just an attack?

I mean...you're taking DODGE and mobility as prereqs. Even if you take one of the dodge substitutes...it's still a harsh feat tax.

btw dual strike can go die in a fire.

Tell him to dip Warblade and grab some tiger claw maneuvers or something.

[AstralFire]

Would it be reasonable to houserule that spring attack allows you to take a standard action (other than spellcasting or manifesting if that's too OP) in the middle of your move instead of just an attack?

I mean...you're taking DODGE and mobility as prereqs. Even if you take one of the dodge substitutes...it's still a harsh feat tax.

btw dual strike can go die in a fire.

Tell him to dip Warblade and grab some tiger claw maneuvers or something.

It would be entirely reasonable. Would also be reasonable to collapse all of TWF into one feat that adds an extra attack with your off-hand any time you'd get a mainhand attack, including iteratives.