Making "Good" Awesome

[Falcon X]

I don't know if you guys are like me, but I scan the Book of Vile Darkness regularly and plot out new things to do with it's evil contents.

Let's face it. Being evil is fun. You have less restrictions than good. You don't have to think about how you can kill the CEO of the evil corporation without hurting innocents. You just blow up the building he's in, and laugh at the people who go down with him.

But does this have to be the case?
Can Good be just as creative, and free, and fun as Evil?
Can I do a task, then sit back and grin to myself, "Muahaha! I can't believe how beautifully Good that was." ?

This thread is for ideas. Likely one of these:
1. Personal stories of Good acts you have done that were awesome.
2. Ideas for Good acts.
3. Creative use of the rules or homebrews that make awesomely Good characters.

I'll start with a few:
A. A homebrew class built around divination: Every night, he goes to sleep and dreams of a person that he will meet tomorrow or soon. The dream may not even show who the person is, but it shows something related to the inner-most desires of his heart. Your class abilities are based around helping these chosen people achieve (or if they are evil, foil or reverse) their desires.
Just realized this sounds like that "Early Edition" TV show. Well, mine has magic and is cooler.

B. Redemption: I was one playing a paladin of sorts. He went the extra mile in encounters. For example: We were attacked by brigands. He detected evil and found that only half were Evil and the other were Neutral. He stepped in, killed an Evil guy, then stalemated himself with a neutral one and said, "Look, I just killed one of your evil companions. You will likely follow. I know you aren't evil. I don't know why you took up thieving, but join me and my crew. I'll split my treasure with you and drop you off at the next town so long as you promise to take up an honest trade."
It worked. He ended up being redeemed over time and was a life-long friend.

C. Tear Down Hell: I mean, pick a layer of the abyss or 9 hells and make it a goal to demolish it. This could even mean going undercover until you can assassinate a Demon Prince or something.

D. Give a puppy to everyone: Come on guys, you know this is the secret to world peace. You could stab that BBEG in the face, OR you could see how he reacts when a puppy leaps up onto his evil throne and licks him in the face.

E. Mindrape, Inception style: Okay, so arguably this could still be Evil, depending on your definition.
Mindrape the BBEG, then find those moments in his life that made him Evil. Don't change those memories, but insert in fundamental perspective-shifts that allow him to see that even those foul moments can be turned to good. Like in Inception, the guys memories weren't changed, he was just made to realize the other side of the story.

[ryu]

I prefer good as silly over the top without actually doing any evil acts. For example the high level wizard casting exalted spells to make ambrosia for his crafting... inside the holy flavored brothels he owns. Basically good doesn't have to be serious business. If however you can turn something as simple as that premise into the thing that sets up one of the most intense yet ridiculous campaigns of all time? Awesome. Still have to work on first draft of first section to start that thread later.

[Spore]

I love being a good guy, I really REALLY do. But this isn't bland old white this is either greyish white (gritty) or over the top celestial exalted angel trumpet white.

First one is a poor everybody who just tanks the shots with his body. He suffers for the weak, he will gladly take a sword for an innocent HD 1 commoner with no significant name. If the thugs want to round up the shop keep the everybody stands in their way even if he is not up to the challenge. He still is clearly good and no doubts but he suffers for it. A lot. He makes Not running an agenda rather than an option. He would build up the house he destroyed in a fight by hand rather than paying for it (even if he could).

The second one is a shining knight with superior ressources and backup. He is capable of taking on most challenges, and on those where he cannot help he helps women and children to flee. He will delegate work and coordinate paths for fleeing civilians. He will spend money on donations to charity but won't use up his time to build a house.

I just like both approaches to the theme. Most realistic and more mediocre characters end up being neutral for me anyways (because heroes are rare). A opportunistic rogue would be CN, not CG and an unbiased scientist wizard would be N, a trust worthy fighter would be LN. My LG characters are a pinnacle of knighthood, NG and CG characters are humanitarians with slightly different goals (NG the guy who aims for the "perfect" ending, the CG guy aiming for freedom even if it costs lives).

[MonochromeTiger]

I'll start with a few:
A. A homebrew class built around divination: Every night, he goes to sleep and dreams of a person that he will meet tomorrow or soon. The dream may not even show who the person is, but it shows something related to the inner-most desires of his heart. Your class abilities are based around helping these chosen people achieve (or if they are evil, foil or reverse) their desires.
Just realized this sounds like that "Early Edition" TV show. Well, mine has magic and is cooler.
so essentially you grant everyone's secret desires unless you disagree then you find some way to forcibly make their life goals crumble before their eyes or change to fit your views? this sounds oddly like a paladin with a candy mace...



B. Redemption: I was one playing a paladin of sorts. He went the extra mile in encounters. For example: We were attacked by brigands. He detected evil and found that only half were Evil and the other were Neutral. He stepped in, killed an Evil guy, then stalemated himself with a neutral one and said, "Look, I just killed one of your evil companions. You will likely follow. I know you aren't evil. I don't know why you took up thieving, but join me and my crew. I'll split my treasure with you and drop you off at the next town so long as you promise to take up an honest trade."
It worked. He ended up being redeemed over time and was a life-long friend.

wouldn't going the extra mile include trying to redeem the evil one too instead of using the threat of death to convert the guy who may have only been following orders from a tougher person?



D. Give a puppy to everyone: Come on guys, you know this is the secret to world peace. You could stab that BBEG in the face, OR you could see how he reacts when a puppy leaps up onto his evil throne and licks him in the face.

well if they're anything like the evil characters in my group they'd probably react with disgust before setting the puppy on fire and asking what damage it does as a thrown weapon against whoever set it on them.



E. Mindrape, Inception style: Okay, so arguably this could still be Evil, depending on your definition.
Mindrape the BBEG, then find those moments in his life that made him Evil. Don't change those memories, but insert in fundamental perspective-shifts that allow him to see that even those foul moments can be turned to good. Like in Inception, the guys memories weren't changed, he was just made to realize the other side of the story.

this feels remarkably like the point of view gun from hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.

in response to your original question, good being fun can be rather hard. part of why evil is fun is because it doesn't get held back by the moral considerations "good" characters have to worry about. where some things that are interesting may be forbidden in a polite society evil can freely pursue them, where an impulse or idea may be shot down because it puts someone or something at risk evil can ignore that issue with a big pointy toothed grin. good CAN be fun, but it takes a lot of logic to point out how some things we label as "evil" are things we consider "good" done in a different way.

[purpenflurb]

There are a lot of different ways to be "Good". The one you talk about seems to be more of a Kantian/deontological philosphy of not letting ends justify means. However you could always look at some other philosophies...

A utilitarian character is also perfectly reasonable, a character who attemps to achieve the greatest good overall. A single life might be worth sacrificing it if helps many. I could be worth destroying an entire town if it means the big bad can't take over the entire kingdom.

Alternatively, you could go with more of a virtue ethic character, who believes that the good is something which must be constantly pursued. Every action must be carried out with the goal of making the world, and by extension yourself, a better place. But you don't need any sort of strict code of what exactly you can and can't do.

That being said, there are plenty of other ways to have fun being good. Dominate the evil cleric and force him to go use his spells to heal the innocent. Kill two birds with one stone, and laugh as he loses all of his power. The possibilities are endless.

[OldTrees1]

One way to make Good Awesome: Be Better

What I mean by that is think of all the examples of Good that you can think of. And then one up them/take them to the next level.

A Paladin helped a Neutral person resist the temptation of Evil? Then you should seek to redeem Evil people. Wait there are paladins already doing that? Then you should seek to redeem Fiends and others considered irredeemable [According to RAW nothing is irredeemable].
(Note: No evil "Good" acts like the BoED version of the Mindrape spell)

[ryu]

One way to make Good Awesome: Be Better

What I mean by that is think of all the examples of Good that you can think of. And then one up them/take them to the next level.

A Paladin helped a Neutral person resist the temptation of Evil? Then you should seek to redeem Evil people. Wait there are paladins already doing that? Then you should seek to redeem Fiends and others considered[According to RAW nothing is irredeemable] irredeemable.
(Note: No evil "Good" acts like the BoED version of the Mindrape spell)

Nope. There's not only redeemed fiends but a freaking paladin succubus. Wrap your brain meats around that.

[MonochromeTiger]

Nope. There's not only redeemed fiends but a freaking paladin succubus. Wrap your brain meats around that.

I'm still confused how people are shocked by this when "fallen angels" are a commonly accepted evil creature... love and lust are both aspects of affection, one is the physical where the other is the emotional and both have an effect on each other. is it really so astounding that when one is labeled as evil and the other as good a creature capable of both might lean towards the one they aren't known for on occasion? alternatively in the words of my wife "love is a legally binding contract granting me ownership of your soul, but with hugs".

[ryu]

I'm still confused how people are shocked by this when "fallen angels" are a commonly accepted evil creature... love and lust are both aspects of affection, one is the physical where the other is the emotional and both have an effect on each other. is it really so astounding that when one is labeled as evil and the other as good a creature capable of both might lean towards the one they aren't known for on occasion? alternatively in the words of my wife "love is a legally binding contract granting me ownership of your soul, but with hugs".

Fallen angels don't make sense either and for much the same set of reasons!

[MonochromeTiger]

Fallen angels don't make sense either and for much the same set of reasons!

eh, guess it's just cause people think that since something is created with a specific purpose in mind it's incapable of deviating from that purpose (which again is odd when you see how many movies we have of AI meant to help humanity killing everything with 2 legs that isn't a kangaroo.) look at the divine creatures in D&D and pathfinder, we give them motivations, personality, goals and agendas, is it that much of a stretch to say that in following those they won't change from our narrow views of what they can do?

[OldTrees1]

Nope. There's not only redeemed fiends but a freaking paladin succubus. Wrap your brain meats around that.
I am confused at the "Nope" followed by repeating the material (LG Succubus) I referenced when I said nothing is irredeemable by RAW.

[ryu]

eh, guess it's just cause people think that since something is created with a specific purpose in mind it's incapable of deviating from that purpose (which again is odd when you see how many movies we have of AI meant to help humanity killing everything with 2 legs that isn't a kangaroo.) look at the divine creatures in D&D and pathfinder, we give them motivations, personality, goals and agendas, is it that much of a stretch to say that in following those they won't change from our narrow views of what they can do?

Except in universe it's not fluffed as these creatures being good or evil as some extension of societal biases and cultural lag time. It's explicitly called out as a physically necessary part of their being to the point where even a ''redeemed'' succubus still pings evil. Expecting anything that deep into the scale to change realistically would be like assuming a human to survive after having all of the water manually removed from their body with no magical health assistance at all. It doesn't make sense.

Oldtrees: it was in reference to the general point that took up most of his post and not the last sentence.

[OldTrees1]

Except in universe it's not fluffed as these creatures being good or evil as some extension of societal biases and cultural lag time. It's explicitly called out as a physically necessary part of their being to the point where even a ''redeemed'' succubus still pings evil. Expecting anything that deep into the scale to change realistically would be like assuming a human to survive after having all of the water manually removed from their body with no magical health assistance at all. It doesn't make sense.

Probably not as bad as that (since supposedly "Always alignment X" is WotCspeak for "99% alignment X")

[ryu]

Probably not as bad as that (since supposedly "Always alignment X" is WotCspeak for "99% alignment X")

That's for things which live on the prime and aren't physical embodiments of the elements they represent. A good succubus or an evil angel is like a dry water elemental.

[MonochromeTiger]

That's for things which live on the prime and aren't physical embodiments of the elements they represent. A good succubus or an evil angel is like a dry water elemental.

*cough dry-ice elemental cough* (it comes with its own concealment bonus!)

[Vedhin]

That's for things which live on the prime and aren't physical embodiments of the elements they represent. A good succubus or an evil angel is like a dry water elemental.

That'd be a salt quasi-elemental.

[ryu]

*cough dry-ice elemental cough* (it comes with its own concealment bonus!)

Dry ice isn't frozen water. It's an entirely different material.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's for things which live on the prime and aren't physical embodiments of the elements they represent. A good succubus or an evil angel is like a dry water elemental.

Actually, the entry in the MM for the alignment subtypes say plainly that even creatures with the subtype are capable of changing their alignment. It's just remarkably unlikely and unusual.

There's also the fact that good and evil in D&D aren't just ideas, but physical elements of reality, as much as electromagnetism or gravity are in real life.

Outsiders aren't so much required to be of the alignment of their subtype to live as much as they are physically composed of that element in such a density as to give it material form. A demon isn't an embodiment of chaos and evil so much as it is a creature composed of chaos and evil in their physical forms. Their alignment and their physical makeup are as separate as they are for any other creature and as a consequence they don't absolutely have to match. Thus, fallen angels and sainted demons.

[MonochromeTiger]

Dry ice isn't frozen water. It's an entirely different material.

it was a joke cause everyone thinks dry ice and ice are actually related in any way other than being cold... I respect your right to mercy-kill my bad joke.

[OldTrees1]

That's for things which live on the prime and aren't physical embodiments of the elements they represent. A good succubus or an evil angel is like a dry water elemental.

And yet there is a whole section of official devils that are fallen angels and have their own hierarchy/promotion track.

[ryu]

it was a joke cause everyone thinks dry ice and ice are actually related in any way other than being cold... I respect your right to mercy-kill my bad joke.

It wasn't in blue so I assumed you were serious and didn't know chemistry.

[prufock]

I love playing the good guy! I find it much more rewarding and fun to be the guy that will do what's right. Maybe it has something to do with the other members of my group, who - even when playing "good guys" - are often selfish, excessively violent, prideful, rude, callous, misanthropic anti-heroes.

[MonochromeTiger]

I love playing the good guy! I find it much more rewarding and fun to be the guy that will do what's right. Maybe it has something to do with the other members of my group, who - even when playing "good guys" - are often selfish, excessively violent, prideful, rude, callous, misanthropic anti-heroes.

....well I don't think playing good out of spite would hold up with a paladin but good job.

[NichG]

The way 'awesome' is used in this thread and the various anecdotes given suggests to me that it's being considered synonymous with 'chaotic'. Thats fine, I can get behind that, and furthermore it suggests the solution - aim for 'the results are generally better than what was there before' and you have your Awesome[Chaotic] Good.

Kingdom that enslaves people for their debts, treats half its populace as chattel, and schemes to rule the world? Give every slave a scroll of Wish and a moment to use them - simultaneously. Its not about helping people, so much as its about giving people the chance to help themselves as cataclysmically - for the bad guys - as possible.

The Awesome[Chaotic] Good guy is the guy who sneaks into the convict-worked mine and unchains and arms all the prisoners, just so he can see the expression on the overseer's face when he walks alone into their midst and starts to push them around. He's the guy who traps the bad guy in an eternal timeloop of the moment his plans fell apart because its funny.

He's probably an awful person in a lot of ways. Cruelty masked in the form of ironic punishment is his bread and butter, but he only does it to bad guys, and he really has saved four countries. Many would call him evil, and perhaps rightly so, but somehow he generally manages to make things better - two steps forward, one step back.

The main thing you can't have is a 'moral high ground'. But whatever, he's too awesome to care! Just look at that explosion - are you telling me that isn't worth a few morally questionable things swept under the rug?! The philosophers can debate whether or not it's strictly ethical to fire the BBEG out of a cannon into the orc army's privy, but for now there's villains to mess with!

The above is half-serious, half tongue-in-cheek. Once you relax the requirement of 'every action I do must be for the sake of Alignment' then there's a lot of leeway to implement various kinds of 'awesome'. Just don't be surprised if its not to the taste of others, or doesn't read as 'Good' to them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'll direct you to the best paladin story ever (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8359242).

[Slipperychicken]

You can do plenty of "neutral" awesome things in support of good causes. Like ramming vehicles through the walls of enemy compounds, tricking opponents into helping you, or causing huge explosions.

Quite a few good acts are awesome, like risking your life to carry a still-living comrade out of danger, or baiting enemies to keep your allies safe. A heroic final stand is only heroic if you're doing it for a good cause.

Many good acts are heartwarming, such as consoling victims and helping them rebuild their lives. Demonstrating emotions and concern for others can help build your character. This kind of thing can lead to awesomeness. Even relatively small things like making your teammates a delicious dinner, or buying a new pair of shoes for a homeless person, can be memorable.

Playing a "hammy"/over-the-top good guy can be amusing at times.


I'm still confused how people are shocked by this when "fallen angels" are a commonly accepted evil creature...

The rules say that fiends are irredeemable, and that's the reason why killing them is always a good act, and why making deals with them is evil. Succubi Paladins contradict pre-existing canon.

[Falcon X]

I once played a game where "The Paladins" was an organization as well as a class. We had a party of 5, and 3 of us were affiliated with "The Paladins".

- I was a NG Witch Hunter (Consecrated Harrier) who was openly defiant of my superiors, and generally just a teenager who thought hes way of "Good" was the right way. Everything is black and white. Think Edward Elric.
- 2nd person was a Nun (Cleric) who was mostly there as my babysitter.
- 3rd person was a fallen paladin (to chaotic) who wasn't a member of the organization anymore.

Throughout the game, I would be the dynamic one, looking for ways to help people and destroy evil. The Fallen Paladin was passive and had mostly given up on life.
Yet, despite everything, he had kind've the Wise Ronin vibe to him. He would reign us in when we went too far. He said little, punched hard, and was able to see the difference between the grey areas, which were many, and when it was truly black and white.

In the last session of the game, we encountered a brothel run by an Incubus. We were there to free the slaves. Yet, what we found were that the ladies there were locked into death. If the incubus died or willed it, then they would all die. There were still other prostitutes who were succubi, and loved it. We had no way to reverse it. What's more, the evil that went on in the place was so thick.

We left the brothel willingly. My character was completely discouraged, because there was nothing he could do or was willing to do. We could destroy the whole place, killing innocents. But none of us could wrap our heads around that. Except for the Fallen Paladin.

The Fallen Paladin, as we were walking away, took our explosives and said, "There is something I need to do."
He walked back into the brothel, and a second later, the whole place blew up, him included.
He viewed destroying this place of evil and putting the innocents out of their misery worth taking his own life.

Was what he did "Good". I don't know. Tough question. But I guarantee that witnessing it made my character re-examine his life. that was the day he grew up.

[Slipperychicken]

We left the brothel willingly. My character was completely discouraged, because there was nothing he could do or was willing to do. We could destroy the whole place, killing innocents. But none of us could wrap our heads around that. Except for the Fallen Paladin.

The Fallen Paladin, as we were walking away, took our explosives and said, "There is something I need to do."
He walked back into the brothel, and a second later, the whole place blew up, him included.
He viewed destroying this place of evil and putting the innocents out of their misery worth taking his own life.

Was what he did "Good". I don't know. Tough question. But I guarantee that witnessing it made my character re-examine his life. that was the day he grew up.

Wait. Couldn't he have just plopped the explosives in without suicide-bombing it?

[MonochromeTiger]

Wait. Couldn't he have just plopped the explosives in without suicide-bombing it?

shhh, it's a paladin, if they used logic they wouldn't fall for handing someone a letter that gives them a paper cut.

also no, he just blew up a bunch of people who aren't evil to spite a few demons that are instead of even trying to look for a way to break the enchantment that would kill them...and took himself out in a way that completely removes any chance of him actually atoning for his actions (self sacrifice =/= stupidly killing yourself while ignoring other solutions that can save lives).

[Falcon X]

Wait. Couldn't he have just plopped the explosives in without suicide-bombing it?

That's what I was thinking as I wrote this. It's been to long. But it made sense at the time.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's what I was thinking as I wrote this. It's been to long. But it made sense at the time.

It does to a certain extent.

Depressed, fallen hero normally unwilling to harm innocents pushed by his conscience to do -something- about the absolutely unconscionable situation he's just seen chooses to martyr himself to put an end to it and simultaneously atone for the deaths of the innocents he couldn't save.

There's a certain poetic and narrative sense to it even if it's not the most rational decision for the character to make.

[Falcon X]

also no, he just blew up a bunch of people who aren't evil to spite a few demons that are instead of even trying to look for a way to break the enchantment that would kill them...and took himself out in a way that completely removes any chance of him actually atoning for his actions (self sacrifice =/= stupidly killing yourself while ignoring other solutions that can save lives).

While objectively, I absolutely believe you're right. In context, it sort of made sense to the character.

This is a guy who, like you or me, is entirely non-magical and doesn't run into this kind've thing everyday. This is major stuff going on that he assumes few mortals can handle.
In his mind, this was worth his life. He wasn't the most knowledgeable guy in the world. He couldn't conceive of finding an alternate plan.
This death gave his life meaning, to him. If he could "save" these innocents, then all of this life would be worth it.

It was kind've a euthanasia question for him. He was the type that would say that putting people out of their misery is a "Good" act.
Whether it is or not. That is a bigger topic.

[Lord_Gareth]

The rules say that fiends are irredeemable, and that's the reason why killing them is always a good act, and why making deals with them is evil. Succubi Paladins contradict pre-existing canon.

1. The rules are stupid.

2. Those rules contradicted pre-existing canon.

3. See 1, but with a side order of Screw BoVD/BoED

4. Falls-From-Grace wants a word.

[Falcon X]

It does to a certain extent.

Depressed, fallen hero normally unwilling to harm innocents pushed by his conscience to do -something- about the absolutely unconscionable situation he's just seen chooses to martyr himself to put an end to it and simultaneously atone for the deaths of the innocents he couldn't save.

There's a certain poetic and narrative sense to it even if it's not the most rational decision for the character to make.

Yeah, that was precisely how the members of our party felt when it happened. Weather or not it should have been...

[OldTrees1]

The rules say that fiends are irredeemable.

Sorry I missed this earlier but: What and where?

[Lord_Gareth]

Sorry I missed this earlier but: What and where?

BoVD and BoED state that killing fiends is always an evil act and the latter gives them gigantic bonuses vs. redemption checks.

[Slipperychicken]

1. The rules are stupid.

2. Those rules contradicted pre-existing canon.

3. See 1, but with a side order of Screw BoVD/BoED

4. Falls-From-Grace wants a word.

I consider the Succubus Paladin to be, like many other example NPCs (which often have the wrong number of feats or don't qualify for their PrCs), a rules oversight. If they were trying to change the rule, which I doubt, WotC could have at least acknowledged the rule and said something like "Okay we screwed up in BoVD. Fiends can be redeemed now, so we'll list some implications of that". Or put out an errata, or something because the way they did it is just contradictory. So I just treat this character like the mistake she probably was and ignore her.

1 and 3) Not arguing with you there.

2) Canon was the wrong word. I meant "rules precedent". Because when I get two books for the same game, I expect them to at least avoid contradicting each other.


Sorry I missed this earlier but: What and where?


BoED page 8 "Redeeming Evil"

Of course, good characters recognize that some creatures are
utterly beyond redemption. Most creatures described in the
Monster Manual as “always evil” are either completely irredeemable
or so intimately tied to evil that they are almost
entirely hopeless. Certainly demons and devils are best slain, or
at least banished, and only a naïve fool would try to convert
them. Evil dragons might not be entirely beyond salvation, but
there is truly only the barest glimmer of hope.

This makes it pretty clear.


BoVD page 17 "THE MONSTER"
The monster villain craves killing, lives in filth, and seeks to
destroy everything that he encounters. More depraved than
psychopaths or sadists, this creature is beyond redemption.
This villain is practically a demon or a devil in his own right.
He drinks the blood of his enemies and allows it to run down
his chin and over his chest. No act is too distasteful for him.

This text implies heavily that demons and devils are beyond redemption as well.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ah, a clarification here - Falls-From-Grace is not a paladin. Falls-From-Grace is a CN hedonist who lives and works in Sigil and has been canon since 2e.

[OldTrees1]

BoVD and BoED state that killing fiends is always a good act and the latter gives them gigantic bonuses vs. redemption checks.

I knew that. I was wondering where it said they were irredeemable. (Since all I have seen from the books is that not only were they redeemable but 3/8th of 1% of them were Good)

Is it merely an inference from a massive bonus against redemption? A +9999 vs redemption means that they are not irredeemable.

[Slipperychicken]

Sorry I missed this earlier but: What and where?


I knew that. I was wondering where it said they were irredeemable. (Since all I have seen from the books is that not only were they redeemable but 3/8th of 1% of them were Good)

Is it merely an inference from a massive bonus against redemption? A +9999 vs redemption means that they are not irredeemable.

I ninja-edited my previous post to answer your question.

[OldTrees1]

Ugh. Why Wizards? Why?
"Most creatures described in the Monster Manual as “always evil” are either completely irredeemable or so intimately tied to evil that they are almost entirely hopeless"

In order to reconcile this(BoED) with the history in the Fiendish Codex (fallen angels), either [Evil] is more powerful than [Good] (since [Good] beings did fall) or Outsiders follow the 2nd half of the OR clause(including the word "almost").

Sidenote: Now I really need to waste my weekend looking for the Always=99% quote in the books.

[MonochromeTiger]

in defense of the "fiends can be redeemed" group, BoVD and BoED are both flavored to make things as black and white as possible while ignoring any room for middle ground established by the rest of the various D&D materials. they kind of exist as those big looming signs saying "we think this is how good and evil should be played and we're judging you for playing an individual like we said you could" where they never bothered to see if what they had written before disagreed....they're a paladin/anti-paladin players handbook and power list and not much else really..

and yes, I am implying that shockingly wizards of the coast are not omniscient gods who re-read everything they've released before handing off fluff justifications for new content to someone. consider all the MECHANICS contradictions they've had that they never did anything about. forgetting a major bit of game lore isn't exactly unlikely next to that.

[Sam K]

While objectively, I absolutely believe you're right. In context, it sort of made sense to the character.

This is a guy who, like you or me, is entirely non-magical and doesn't run into this kind've thing everyday. This is major stuff going on that he assumes few mortals can handle.
In his mind, this was worth his life. He wasn't the most knowledgeable guy in the world. He couldn't conceive of finding an alternate plan.
This death gave his life meaning, to him. If he could "save" these innocents, then all of this life would be worth it.

It was kind've a euthanasia question for him. He was the type that would say that putting people out of their misery is a "Good" act.
Whether it is or not. That is a bigger topic.

In a setting where afterlife-according-to-your-alignment is a known fact, killing innocents who are suffering AND being used to further evil could be considered the most humane option. Especially if breaking the enchantment that kept the innocents alive was far beyond the power of the party, or anyone the party could reasonably expect assistance from.

One could further argue that he accepted the same fate for himself that he chose for those captured; current existance is painful, and it's better to end life fighting evil (while reducing the risk for your companions) than to have the entire party risk their lives.

It's not a clear cut case by any means, but if he was genuine in his belif it might get him into the nicer part of the afterlife.

I tend towards anti-heros or plain evil characters, so I dont have many examples of awesome good. I did once play a templar (in a completely different setting than D&D - was an old MMORPG where we had a very strong RP community) who was part of a VERY strict, militant church: imagine one where Miko would be considered softcore.

Everyone in the order was either a purist (no temptations, living life only for their god) or a purist inquisitor (burning other people for not living life only for their god). Yeah, they wouldn't be considered LG in any D&D setting, but they were the only organization on humanitys side in this setting.

My char was a former mercenary who had converted at swordpoint and really taken to the cause, but not the lifestyle, of the church. He'd curse, eat like a pig, get smashed and plow any prostitute he could afford. And then he'd quote scripture to justify it: "The red saint said 'Take comfort in your nature as the gods chosen race, be strong and plentiful, and divert your minds from the wickedness of the elves'. Well, a roast pig keeps me strong, the girl gives me comfort, and when I'm passed out with one hand on her tits and a empty bottle of wine in the other, I'm not dreaming NOTHING of elves!" He was, however, flawless in the execution of his duties (which often involved executions). He'd lead the charge against the infidels, constantly place himself in harms way to protect another member of the church, and he kept winning battles.

Even then, I mostly got away with it because the way to treat a templar who was suspected of being corrupt was by trial of combat. I simply fought better than most of my guildmates.

I have no idea if that chracter qualifies as awesome good. I like the idea of holy warriors that have a definition of good that's not 100% based on the great judeo-christian guilt trip, though. Go forth, smite the infidel, protect the helpless, uphold the law, and storm the gates of hell... but feel free to smoke a joint and have an orgy on the way there, because the allmighty wouldn't have given us all this great stuff if he didn't mean for us to enjoy it!

[bluntpencil]

Badass self-sacrifice is always cool.

In a couple of Dark Heresy games I've played, I've done that.

I was playing a Penal Legion Guardsman, the ones with the deferred executions, and we found ourselves up against some horrific daemonic monstrosity.

On seeing it, everyone was soiling themselves in fear, to which the Legionnaire says,

"Drug me, sir."

He was referring to the cocktail of drugs he had ready on autoinjectors which could make him angrier, tougher, and fearless.

When the remote control got flicked, he rushed forward, pulling the pins on the half-dozen grenades he was carrying, and tackled the beast (an Obliterator), exploding with it.

--

In another Dark Heresy game, played on this very forum, my badass Arbitrator dived onto a grenade to save his subordinates.

He then stood up, dusted himself off, and chewed them out for letting it get to that stage.

To be fair, he's not a 'good' guy, what with the torturing prisoners and all, but that was some heroic good guy stuff.

[Falcon X]

Anybody ever played around with Silverhair Knights (Sin Eaters)?

They seem pretty neat. A sect of mostly mostly drow who seek to redeem their race from evil. Often through capture, infiltration, or other means.

Their key spell is Awaken Sin, which is a [Good, Fear, Mind-Effecting] spell, that reminds them of their sins and also shows them the pain of those who were hurt by their sins.