How to finish a non-precision damage two weapon fighting build (levels 8+)

[Dusk Eclipse]

I like to have my characters' builds ready when the game starts, it is just the way I like to play, but this is the first time in some time that I have no idea on how to finish my build.

Anyway, here is what I have so far

Dragonborn (base race undefined) Wings Aspect.
Here is my planed stats (32 point buy) but I might change them depending how do I follow this build or what race I end up using (mental stats are most prone to be changed)
Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 13

1 Ranger 1 Weapon Finesse
2 Ranger 2 Two weapon fighting
3 Fighter EWP (Dragon Splits) & Power Attack
4 Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian [Ferocity variant]
5 Ranger 3
6 Ranger 4 Weapon Focus (Dragonsplits)
7 Exotic Weapon Master 1

The main idea is to build a viable dex-based two weapon fighter that doesn't rely on precision damage (or similar) to be effective, for this purpose I'm taking EW master to get Uncanny blow and get a 2:1 returns on power attack (Dragon splits are One-handed weapon, but count as Light for the purposes of Weapon finesse and two weapon fighting). Wings aspect is chosen because first of all Ex flight is incredibly awesome and with it you can make Dive attacks which means double damage with the dragonsplits.

But as I said before I have no idea on how to follow after this, I've toyed with going warblade (subbing the fighter level) that way I can get 9th level maneuvers. Or even going for a Suel arcanamach build (flaws & otyugh hole to get the pre-requs) but it would introduce even more MAD and it would delay SA entry for a level which means the casting will come even later (why the hell does EWM needs +6 BAB?!?!)

I'm open to all kind of suggestions, but do keep in mind I want to be dex focused and to avoid sneak attack & the like.

[Emperor Tippy]

What do you count as like sneak attack?

Because throw on Decisive Strike Martial Monk (to take the tasty Weapon Supremacy without all of those pesky fighter levels) and 8 levels of Factotum and you have pretty much exponentially increased your damage.

End with 5 levels of Warblade.

Oh, replace Fighter with Exoticist Fighter (Dragon #310). You get to pick 4 exotic weapon proficiencies at first level while still getting your feat.

[Greenish]

Exoticist can also be combined with Hi-and-Run Tactics fighter (DotU), if my memory serves (the former swaps weapon proficiencies, the latter armour and shields).

[Callin]

Well if you want the higher level spells but dont want to bother with 1-3 lvl spells this is a trick I thought of that I am sure the Playground knows.

Start to level Bard and put the skill ranks to cover the prereqs for Sublime Cord (may have to do this before hand using CC or even going human for Adaptive Learner(ing? lol)).
Chaos Shuffle some feats around before you hit lvl 10. You need one of the feats that give some 0 lvl spells from Complete Arcane. Extend Spell (prereq to), Sanctum Spell (now your 0 lvl are 1st lvl), then Precocious Apprentice (your second is now lvl 3 due to Sanctum) Take one level of Sublime Cord and then Chaos Shuffle that crap back to what you had em as since you no longer need them because you have 4th lvl spells off the bat.

Now to find a decent PrC that progresses Arcane and a decent BaB... excuse me while I go check. Abjurant Champion would work well here. What else to finish out the 20 build... Spellsword 1, hmm I got nothing, only need 3 more levels.

I hope that was sorta helpful. If not disregard and have fun anyways :smallsmile:

edit: OH you need a decent Cha for this since those spells are based off Charisma. Actually you dont need those 0 lvl spells... that was a trick I had for another character completely. So ignore that part but leaving it there for completeness sake.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What do you count as like sneak attack?

Because throw on Decisive Strike Martial Monk (to take the tasty Weapon Supremacy without all of those pesky fighter levels) and 8 levels of Factotum and you have pretty much exponentially increased your damage.

End with 5 levels of Warblade.

Oh, replace Fighter with Exoticist Fighter (Dragon #310). You get to pick 4 exotic weapon proficiencies at first level while still getting your feat.

I've been meaning to ask how does cunning surge works with descisive strike since the former gives standard actions and the later needs a full round action/attack. Do you mean to trade two standard action from cunning surge to use decisive strike more than once per round? It is a cool combo, but wouldn't it work better on a single big attack (like say an unarmed strike with a couple of effective size increases?)

Secondly it would come online really late (17 at earliest if I add those levels to my current build) the game is supposed to go up to level 20 but since we will start at level 1 and we meet twice a month it would take a long time to get to that point.

Finally by sneak attack like I mean extra d6's from stuff like weapon enhancements, skirmish, dfi, etc.


Exoticist can also be combined with Hi-and-Run Tactics fighter (DotU), if my memory serves (the former swaps weapon proficiencies, the latter armour and shields).
Oh that definitely helps, I had forgotten about exotists and hit-and-run tactics, if they can be combined I will use them. Ranger and Barbarian cover my other proficiencies and it saves me a feat.


Well if you want the higher level spells but dont want to bother with 1-3 lvl spells this is a trick I thought of that I am sure the Playground knows.

Start to level Bard and put the skill ranks to cover the prereqs for Sublime Cord (may have to do this before hand using CC or even going human for Adaptive Learner(ing? lol)).
Chaos Shuffle some feats around before you hit lvl 10. You need one of the feats that give some 0 lvl spells from Complete Arcane. Extend Spell (prereq to), Sanctum Spell (now your 0 lvl are 1st lvl), then Precocious Apprentice (your second is now lvl 3 due to Sanctum) Take one level of Sublime Cord and then Chaos Shuffle that crap back to what you had em as since you no longer need them because you have 4th lvl spells off the bat.

Now to find a decent PrC that progresses Arcane and a decent BaB... excuse me while I go check. Abjurant Champion would work well here. What else to finish out the 20 build... Spellsword 1, hmm I got nothing, only need 3 more levels.

I hope that was sorta helpful. If not disregard and have fun anyways :smallsmile:

edit: OH you need a decent Cha for this since those spells are based off Charisma.


I'm already jumping trough a lot of hoops, don't get me wrong it is a nice idea, but it would be needlessly complicated and doesn't really mesh with my concept, furthermore while my DM is pretty chill about what he allows amd what he doesn't; I'm fairly certain he would draw the line at Dark Chaos Shuffle.

[Emperor Tippy]

I've been meaning to ask how does cunning surge works with descisive strike since the former gives standard actions and the later needs a full round action/attack. Do you mean to trade two standard action from cunning surge to use decisive strike more than once per round? It is a cool combo, but wouldn't it work better on a single big attack (like say an unarmed strike with a couple of effective size increases?)
Decisive Strike's most important line is in parenthesis and says "If the attack hits, it deals double damage (as does any other attack you make before the start of your next turn)."

Sure it doubles little things like Attacks of Opportunity but when combined with Cunning Surge its massive synergy. It's pretty much the best melee damage combo against a single target that can be applied pretty much all the time (at least until you get into more TO than PO). The nice bit is it tends to have quite good synergy in abilities (especially if you grab Kung Fu Genius and Chaos Shuffle Improved Unarmed Strike to make the whole thing feat neutral).

Grab Weapon Supremacy with your Martial Monk feat so that you can take 10 on your initial full attack decisive strike and combine with Cunning Insight to practically guarantee a hit (throw on True Strike from a Glove of the Master Strategist to really guarantee it).

If you make your stance Aura of Perfect Order then you can pick up another take 11 on an attack roll ability usable once per round.

Use Cunning Insight to offset the Power Attack penalty (as its not a charge you can't dump it on AC with Shock Trooper) and get your 4:1 power attacks. For extra fun and when you need something special, buy a Craft Contingent Surge of Fortune and a Kaorti Resin weapon. Use it to get a natural 20 on the attack and combine with Weapon Supremacy to take 10 on the confirmation roll (also use Cunning Insight if necessary). That gives you a nice little x5 damage while power attacking for your entire BAB at a 2:1 ratio. So PA for +10 and it becomes a +100 attack before you add in little things like Cunning Insight to add on Int to Damage for another x5 Int and Str, Greater Magic Weapon for another +25 damage, a Collision weapon for another +25 damage. All in all you can easily be looking at a +200 damage for your attack.


Secondly it would come online really late (17 at earliest if I add those levels to my current build) the game is supposed to go up to level 20 but since we will start at level 1 and we meet twice a month it would take a long time to get to that point.

Factotum 1/ Decisive Strike Martial Monk 1 (2 if you want Invisible Fist and another prerequisite free Fighter Bonus Feat) with Weapon Supremacy as your Martial Monk feat. That makes you quite well rounded for your first two levels.

Exoticist Fighter 1 to pick up your weapon followed by Ranger 2 to pick up Weapon Finesse and TWF.

Why are you taking more than 2 levels of Ranger? I could see Ranger 3 if you can Chaos Shuffle to pick up the extra feat but you've indicated that your DM is leery of that (which sucks because you have Track, Endurance, and Improved Unarmed Strike in here and without the Shuffle that sucks bad) so I don't see what the rest of the ranger levels really get you.

Now Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian and Exotic Weapon Master. That puts you at level 7.

Now take the next 7 levels of Factotum, which brings you fully online at ECL 14. After that you can start filling in other stuff, like Mindbender 1 for Mindsight and a good chunk of Warblade.

Race wise you might want to look at Necropolitan Gray Elf. That lets you dump Con entirely. Were stats rolled or PB? It also makes the Ritual of Shadow Walking a very good idea (at will 100 foot teleport for no cost) and picks you up a number of immunities while switching your HD over to d12's and letting you take Faerie Mysteries Initiate to get Int to HP instead of (your now nonexistent) Con.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is a really awesome combo, one I would like to try on a high OP (by my group standards) game, but sadly it is too much for this game. I'll bookmark this though in case I get a game where I can use it or if they let me DM again :smallamused: hehe.

Necropolitan is a great idea, though I would be leery to play one since another player mentioned he might go Dread Necromancer and while there is obvious synergy I am not sure he would resist the temptation to (at least try) to rebuke my character. Besides since we are starting at level 1 it isn't really doable for the time being (at least IIRC you need to be level 3 in order to survive the Ritual of Crumifixtion).

Those stats were generated with 32 PBt o cover the bare basics of the build, however the DM hasn't decided if we are rolling or buying.

[Raezeman]

i'd advice on the wildrunner prestige class. You have to be an elf or half-elf for that, but:
At level 2 you get primal scream, which temporarily gives you a +2 bonus on strength and +6 bonus on dexterity. Along with some other nice things. To get into it, you need endurance (which you get for free at ranger 3 anyway) and some skill ranks which should be no problem for a ranger.

Also, the dervish and tempest prestige classes can be handy for 2-weapon fighting, but they need lot's of feats to get into.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wildrunner is definitely a good class, though to be honest I don't see the point of taking it past 2 levels, none of the upgrades to Feral scream seem worthwhile to me.

Dervish is decent, but it's main benefit (full attack + moving) is redundant with pounce, tempest on the other hand sucks.

I was checking some ways to try and get rid of the Animal companion and I came across the Urban Companion ACF and it seem to be really useful, what do you guys think? 3/4 hit points and full bab would make it at least a decent flanker and it can be a pretty good scout.

[Greenish]

Urban Companion also gets skills, right? That ought to be handy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They work as familiars with some minor changes (like having 3/4 HP instead of 1/2)