Looking To Get a Friend Into OOTS

[Rabbit]

Hey all!

I've been following the comic for a very long time myself (I started twenty or thirty strips before Shojo was killed), but I don't have anyone in my personal life to enjoy it with or talk to about these things.

I have a friend who's an avid comic book fan, and has been playing Dungeons & Dragons for years. I can't convince him to read the webcomic itself, but I know if he had a hard copy of one of the books he would read through it to give it a chance. He's the type that's hard to sell on new things, though, and if he made up his mind on the book he would be lost forever. He's very big on intense, detailed stories - Watchmen, Scott Pilgrim, and Fables are some of his favourite comics - so I know he would fall for the series eventually, if he read enough of it.

So, my question for you all is - what better to start him off on; Start of Darkness, or Dungeon Crawlin' Fools? I haven't read SoD myself, so no spoilers please, but as I udnerstand it's a very high-octane, well-written read... but can it function as a standalone, or does it only attain that spine-chilling status when put in context with the rest of the series? I imagine its overall production value is higher than DCF, merely because DCF was Rich's very first piece, so I'm struggling between the higher quality that is SoD, or the higher relevance that is DCF.

Advice?

[NerdyKris]

Do not start with Start of Darkness. It assumes you've read at least the reveal by Shojo about the gates. It came out during the battle of Azure City. I'd hold off on it until then at least. But don't start with it, as it assumes you've already heard of the gates from Shojo.

When starting Dungeon crawling fools, I'd recommend jumping forward to the Linear Guild. The first 60 strips are extremely weak compared to everything after.

[dtilque]

When starting Dungeon crawling fools, I'd recommend jumping forward to the Linear Guild. The first 60 strips are extremely weak compared to everything after.

The Linear Guild showed up in #43. I'd say just warn him that in the first hundred or so strips, there's lots of strips that don't forward the plot; they're just jokes about D&D rules. If the friend's been playing for a long time, I'm sure he'd appreciate at least some of them. After that point, there are still rules jokes, but they're worked into the plot better.

[NerdyKris]

The Linear Guild showed up in #43. I'd say just warn him that in the first hundred or so strips, there's lots of strips that don't forward the plot; they're just jokes about D&D rules. If the friend's been playing for a long time, I'm sure he'd appreciate at least some of them. After that point, there are still rules jokes, but they're worked into the plot better.

Whoops. Don't know why I didn't double check that number. But yeah, my usual recommendation is to skim up till that point, since the early strips are basically joke of the day with no reason to keep reading. In my case, I tried multiple times over the years until getting hooked with the first visit to the Oracle. Specifically, the Elan's bedtime strip where Nale appears at the end, which made me want to find out who that was.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I don't see a problem with starting with 'Start of Darkness' . It is rather self contained, and the main story isn't needed to understand the plot.

[Excise]

I actually would start at Strip 1. If he's a big D&D player then he'll enjoy the D&D jokes, and even if it isn't heavy on plot, it is a good introduction to the characters and their personalities.

[NerdyKris]

I don't see a problem with starting with 'Start of Darkness' . It is rather self contained, and the main story isn't needed to understand the plot.

Because it completely and utterly spoils the reveal of the gates? It destroys all the suspense and drama of the mysterious assassin when you recognize her as a Sapphire Guard paladin, and ruins the reveal of why they just got dragged across the continent over a silly exploding gate.

The book simply isn't made to be read first. It breaks the flow of the story. It was clearly written with the intent that readers were at least up to War and Xps.

[Tengu_temp]

I started reading OotS when #70 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) was the latest one, and I have to say this:

Start him from the very beginning, with the first strip, but tell him to at least wait until Linear Guild shows up till he passes his judgement on it. That's when the comic starts to spread its wings, not only plot-wise, but also joke-wise: many of the jokes in the very early strips are simply not that good, even to DND players. But it gets so much better over time.

[Mith]

Although I haven't read SoD, based on what I know of the book, it reads better after DCF and NCPB because in those books, you discover what is already known in SoD, and as such it would likely make the new reader frustrated as he sees the mystery as a wast e of time.

[Ceaon]

Dungeon Crawlin' Fools has a few introductory strips that really feel like a good start to the story. I recommend starting there. To me, Start of Darkness is clearly a prequel, so it shouldn't be read first.

I'd go DCF > NCFTBP > OTOoPCs > W&XPs > SOD > DSTP and then follow up with the online strips if your friend is still hungry for more. Depending on how many books you have/are able to purchase, OTOoPCs and SOD are in no way obligatory reads, and as soon as your friend is hooked, you can direct him to the website instead of buying the books.

Edit: Qualitywise, yes, SOD is better than DCF, at least IMHO. However, starting off with SOD ruins a lot of the story of other books and lessens the impact of SOD slightly. It also doesn't really work as a stand-alone for various reasons, some of which Rich Burlew addresses in the introduction of that book.

[Kish]

If you're considering buying this friend a printed book...get him On the Origins of PCs.

Don't start him with Start of Darkness; assuming the "huh, the protagonists are a pair of morally ambiguous goblins and a sickeningly evil sorcerer?" thing didn't turn him off without context, if he read Start of Darkness and then went on to the main comic, his reaction would be, "Wait, who are these people, why am I supposed to care about them, and where are Redcloak and Xykon?"

[shockeroo]

DCF, without hesitation. You should start reading stories at the beginning. :)

[ChristianSt]

With the added introduction strips I think the answer is clearly DCF (if your main reason is to hook your friends). Also I don't know why all people bash those early strips (sure compared to newer ones the art isn't as great and they start with no plot), but imo they are still great and the plot thickens really fast.

Especially SoD is a great read (and should also be fine on its own), but spoils too much of the main story (also I think it is better if you know Team Evil already).
OtOoPCs isn't bad, but imo isn't a good starting point: in itself it doesn't has much of a story (sure it is how the Order came together, but has really not much plot).

[astralmeson]

Start him from the beginning

[StLordeth]

Origins. Not SOD.

[Jay R]

First, I agree with everyone that you start with the start. We all did, and we became fans, right?

But you may safely stop trying to figure out what he should read next. After he finishes Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, he will then devour the online comics no matter what you suggest.

[Bundin]

With the added introduction strips I think the answer is clearly DCF (if your main reason is to hook your friends). Also I don't know why all people bash those early strips (sure compared to newer ones the art isn't as great and they start with no plot), but imo they are still great and the plot thickens really fast.

It's the oneshot jokes in the first 50 that got me hooked. I'd not mind seeing a few of those every now and then, even if it'd not fit the current format of the comic. Too bad there's no 'sillies' like CAD did (does? havent read that in ages). I love the narrative and wouldn't want the story to slow down, but an occasional dnd related joke would be most welcome :)

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, I can't really see any point in starting anywhere but at the start. Sure, it's a bit shaky back then, but it has quite a few good jokes for D&D geeks if you take a lighthearted approach, and it establishes quite a few important details about the story. For example, Haley's attraction to Elan, Belkar's personality, Eugene floating around as a ghost, who the heck the Linear Guild are, etc. It even has Redcloak's great quote about MitD being as threatening as musty styrofoam, IIRC, and Xykon's comment that Redcloak is going to kick the bucket sooner or later, to which the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle responds, "I love you too, sir." Hilarious stuff, IMO. I always enjoy well-handled back-and-forth snark. :smallbiggrin:

SoD is not the spot to start. It's a great read, but it requires some pretty in-depth knowledge of the whole thing to be fully appreciated. Also, without the rest of the comic to perk it up, I'd think it would be kind of a downbeat introduction.

[martianmister]

Start with this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html).

[Kish]

It even has Redcloak's great quote about MitD being as threatening as musty styrofoam, IIRC, and Xykon's comment that Redcloak is going to kick the bucket sooner or later, to which the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle responds, "I love you too, sir."
Both in No Cure for the Paladin Blues.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Because it completely and utterly spoils the reveal of the gates? It destroys all the suspense and drama of the mysterious assassin when you recognize her as a Sapphire Guard paladin, and ruins the reveal of why they just got dragged across the continent over a silly exploding gate.

The book simply isn't made to be read first. It breaks the flow of the story. It was clearly written with the intent that readers were at least up to War and Xps.


No, start of darkness isn't that big of a spoiler. It mentions some things about gates, but not why the gates are that important. It just lets the reader know redcloaks plan for the gates. You can't even tell it will be the main goal of the OOTS. And the gates aren't really that surprising of a reveal. World destroying artifacts are a common fantasy trope.

It might spoil a little, but nothing that bad. At most it gives an interesting perspective while reading. And it can be a good way to get readers interested in OOTS, by showing off Richs story telling skills right off the bat.

The main problem I see is the early comic seems extra cheesy after reading start of darkness. Redcloack has had no character yet, the monster in the darkness has a different character. And after Xycon completely owns the situation in Start of Darkness, the way that the OOTS defeats him seems anti climatic.

[ChristianSt]

One thing that hasn't gotten mentioned here (haven't thought of it before):

Tell your friend to not read the commentary before he reads the strip, they spoil the content of the arc they introduce sometimes pretty hard. Foreword/Preface/Introduction should be fine - but reading the commentary while reading the strip for the first time is imo really bad.

So if you're friend is normally a person who reads all content in order (I'm normally doing that :smallwink:) a warning to skip the commentary would be better.



I don't think it is it worth to discuss whether SoD spoils the main strip or not (I think it does) - but even if it doesn't, it imo still has some problems introducing peoples to the strip: The tone of the story is SO much different.
The main strip is most of the time a somewhat light-hearted goofy action-adventure. SoD is a drastic different kind of story - In my opinion it is an extremely good read, and probably the best book, but it even doesn't share the type of story with the rest of the strip (besides from a few scenes - mostly featuring the MitD - there isn't really something to find funny). So if someone expects a comic that is similar to SoD that person might be disappointed after starting with the main comic.

[Copperdragon]

One thing that hasn't gotten mentioned here (haven't thought of it before):

Tell your friend to not read the commentary before he reads the strip, they spoil the content of the arc they introduce sometimes pretty hard.

I really want to chime in on this. As much as I like the comic, Rich's work and the books, but I think the books utterly fail at being stand-alone products for people who do not already know the story. You must not read the chapter introductions if you do not already know some about what comes.

It's like watching Star Wars the first time and then when Bespin starts in Episode V the movie halts, cuts to a Directior's Comment video where the author explains why he had that "Suprising reveal with Luke and Vader and how it played this and that on their characters and in the end it's all about how Vader...", then it cuts back and the viewers got spoiled about a lot of what is going to go on on Bespin. Yuck.

Putting the development commentary in the prints *before* each chapter it's about instead of behind is imo a, I actually go this far, work-breaking mistake. Of course your opinion might differ, but this one here is mine:

If you get the prints: Do not read the commentaries before you finish the book.

[ChristianSt]

Putting the development commentary in the prints *before* each chapter it's about instead of behind is imo a, I actually go this far, work-breaking mistake.

I wouldn't call it a mistake. If you know the content already I think getting the commentary before the arcs is imo the better reading order. I don't know if there is a disclaimer/spoiler warning in the Introduction, but if there is one I don't see something wrong with that approach.
Most often in tv-series dvd-bonus it is the same: Despite the bonus content being on disc 1, it is much better to first watch the complete season.

[NerdyKris]

Putting the development commentary in the prints *before* each chapter it's about instead of behind is imo a, I actually go this far, work-breaking mistake. Of course your opinion might differ, but this one here is mine:


The preface for each book points out not to read the commentary. And given that it's commentary, most people would know that it's going to spoil that section. Otherwise, what is it commenting on?



I don't think it is it worth to discuss whether SoD spoils the main strip or not (I think it does) - but even if it doesn't, it imo still has some problems introducing peoples to the strip: The tone of the story is SO much different.
The main strip is most of the time a somewhat light-hearted goofy action-adventure. SoD is a drastic different kind of story - In my opinion it is an extremely good read, and probably the best book, but it even doesn't share the type of story with the rest of the strip (besides from a few scenes - mostly featuring the MitD - there isn't really something to find funny). So if someone expects a comic that is similar to SoD that person might be disappointed after starting with the main comic.

I just remembered a great example. I was introduced to Rorouni Kenshin back in 2000 through the OVA first. For those that don't know, it's a similar dark story with a very negative ending. Then my friend and I found the TV show and watched that.

Completely different tone. The show had started as a light hearted upbeat show, and the OVA came out after it had taken a darker turn. It throws off the whole pacing of the story to watch something like that early, even though it's a prequel. It's the same thing with SOD. It's not the beginning of the story. It's just letting us see where the villains came from, which is meaningless without the 400-ish strips that came before it.

It would be like reading an Order of the Scribble story first because it came chronologically first. That's not how stories work.

[Sir_Dr_D]

It all depends on what your friend would respond to.

If you are certain that someone is dedicated to reading the comic, then yes, starting off with dungeon crawling fools , and the prescribed reading order , is the way to go.


If it is someone who only reads high quality material, then start of darkness is self contained story, that shows OOTS at its best. It is a good starting point for people who like character driven stories and would be turned off by the cheesy methods of plot resolution in dungeon crawling fools.

[Rabbit]

I guess I wasn't sure if Start of Darkness was a more natural 'starting' point, because it is, after all, a prequel; chronologically, it is what happened first, so starting at the beginning would be either that or OOoPCs, which - as I understand - is not nearly as powerful as SoD is.

I ended up going with Dungeon Crawlin' Fools to gift my friend come Christmas morning, and I purchased a copy of Start of Darkness for myself that I can let him borrow if DCF doesn't steal his interest.

Thanks for all the feedback, it helped a lot. :)

[Ceaon]

As a general rule, a prequel is never a good starting point. It is a wordplay on sequel and the affix "pre-", and, like a sequel, a prequel is written after the story it is a prequel to.

Good luck, it's a nice thing you're doing for your friend!

[Grogmir]

SOD IS Epic.. Seriously. Stop trying to convert your friend and grab a copy for yourself!. But its not a introduction book.

Start him at the beginning, inform him that it was a Joke a Day type comic that quickly evolved and watch him fly!