Giving someone a forced vision

[Raezeman]

Hey,

i'm looking for a way to give my players a vision, but a fake one. I don't mean in the way that when they use divination spells, they get untrue results. I mean in the way that, for example, when the person sleeps, he suddenly become very aware that he is dreaming, his god appears to him and gives him information, but in fact, the god had nothing to do with it, the dream was fabricated by an evil guy, and the information received from it is false and might lead to the distrusting of someone actually trustworthy.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Hey,

i'm looking for a way to give my players a vision, but a fake one. I don't mean in the way that when they use divination spells, they get untrue results. I mean in the way that, for example, when the person sleeps, he suddenly become very aware that he is dreaming, his god appears to him and gives him information, but in fact, the god had nothing to do with it, the dream was fabricated by an evil guy, and the information received from it is false and might lead to the distrusting of someone actually trustworthy.

The spell dream lets you appear to someone in their sleep to deliver a message. As to fooling them into thinking its from their god... bluff.

[Sith_Happens]

The spell dream lets you appear to someone in their sleep to deliver a message. As to fooling them into thinking its from their god... bluff.

A good Disguise check might help too.

[Raezeman]

Ok, i can definitely use this.
Also: it doesn't have to be a dream, that was just the first way i thought would be possible.

[Crake]

A good Disguise check might help too.

Bah, gods can take whatever form they want.

Max ranks in bluff, glibness and a decent cha, you're looking at somewhere in the vicinity of +50 bluff, even with the maximum +20 sense motive bonus for outrageous lies, the player would be almost incapable of passing their sense motive, unless they had been maxing it and have some sense motive magic items.

[Raezeman]

Actually, the sense motive does not have to be un-passable. It will not be easy, i can tell you that, but if they have a good check and good modifiers, they should get rewarded for that and see through the deceit. If they fail however, they might chose the wrong side to help when they see 2 supposed friends battle to the death.
Of course, if there is a way that would avoid bluff and sense motive, that would be better i think. Leaving it up to the player to think, would Moradin really come to me in my dream to tell me not to trust this guy?

[hymer]

If I were you, I'd make sure to insert some subtle clues that something was wrong. This is mostly to avoid damaging a classic plot hook, possibly to the point of uselesness.

Regarding the Bluff vs. Sense Motive: If you mention it, you'll alert the player. I suggest you run it without the mechanic unless the player asks for Sense Motive, and let them decide on their own whether to believe or not.

[Raezeman]

Regarding the Bluff vs. Sense Motive: If you mention it, you'll alert the player. I suggest you run it without the mechanic unless the player asks for Sense Motive, and let them decide on their own whether to believe or not.

I have thought of that already. In these situations, i would just say: roll a d20. I have all the modifiers of my players that this applies to so they don't know they are actually doing a sense motive check, and the bluff would be rolled beforehand.

[Lord Vukodlak]

A good Disguise check might help too.

I'm not actually sure how disguise works in a dream you send them a message in the form of a dream it doesn't actually say you appear to them.


Regarding the Bluff vs. Sense Motive: If you mention it, you'll alert the player. I suggest you run it without the mechanic unless the player asks for Sense Motive, and let them decide on their own whether to believe or not.
He should have someone outside the dream try and bluff him for some trivial reason. (say running fake toll booth) so he can find out his sense motive modifer and roll it secretly.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm not actually sure how disguise works in a dream you send them a message in the form of a dream it doesn't actually say you appear to them.

It does in fact say that.


The messenger then enters a trance, appears in the intended recipient’s dream, and delivers the message.

[Crake]

for the bluff vs the sense motive, just roll the player's sense motive behind the screen. If he fails, then just describe the dream as is. If he passes, then describe the dream, but give some flair that says to him that something's not quite right. If he passes by a decent enough amount, tell him the whole dream seems off or something.

[Raezeman]

for the bluff vs the sense motive, just roll the player's sense motive behind the screen. If he fails, then just describe the dream as is. If he passes, then describe the dream, but give some flair that says to him that something's not quite right. If he passes by a decent enough amount, tell him the whole dream seems off or something.

Roughly what i am thinking. Just that i won't roll for my players. I think that, a little before they go to sleep, i'll have them all roll a d20, not say what it's for, only take the one i need and calculate the check (i have his modifiers). And then, when he has the dream, tell it based on the check.

EDIT: at least, that is my idea so far, many thanks for all the advice to everybody, but if anyone has a better idea to deliver a forced vision, through other means than a dream perhaps, please, do tell.

[Duke of Urrel]

In regard to "unbeatable" Bluff checks:

I have often considered, as a general rule, neither rolling Sense Motive checks for players nor having them roll Sense Motive checks themselves, but instead allowing all Sense Motive checks made to detect lies to take 10 by default. I would also allow all Bluff checks to take 10 by default. Players would, of course, be allowed to choose to roll Sense Motive checks rather than take 10 if they suspected that somebody was lying to them. Everybody would still have to roll Bluff and Sense Motive checks when distracted or threatened, following the usual rule.

This is on the one hand fair in terms of mechanics, on the other hand allows me, the dungeon master, secretly to craft a few well-bluffed lies that the players themselves probably won't notice right away, because the liars are just a little more skilled than the PCs' lie-detectors.

I haven't field-tested these rules yet, but I think they would work well.

[Arc_knight25]

@Duke of Urrel

That seems very similar to the 4e Insight and Perception (10+skill mod) for passives of each. If you want to make an active one then you roll your d20.

[Raezeman]

Alright, thanks everybody, i have a clear idea of what i can do when trying to do the 'bluff inside the dream' scenario, and how to keep the bluffs/sense motives secret. So i'm good with that.

If anybody has a different idea to make someone have a vision, i'm still open for options. The moment where this will happen is probably few sessions away, so plenty of time.

[AstralFire]

You definitely should plot subtle cues that won't be useful at all to telling the PCs that it was false all along when they do figure it out, but will make sense in retrospect. Easier said than done, but if you make it too completely believable, it can engender total paranoia in your players.

[Raezeman]

If they fall for it, they will probably kill a (in their eyes) traitor to save a (in their eyes) good person. But in the end, the (in their eyes) good person will reveal himself as the bad guy and if they player then loudly wonder: 'but Moradin told me to protect you?', the bad guy will reply with: that vision came from me, you divine idiot!

[SethoMarkus]

The big question that popped up for me is whether Moradin would allow such a false vision to take place in the first place?

If the character receiving the false vision is a Cleric of Moradin or otherwise has a close connection to the deity and ranks in Knowledge (Religion), I would think that it would be very difficult to fool them. At most, Moradin or one of his divine servants would try to set things straight with the Cleric, at the very least another Cleric of Moradin should be sought out to compare notes.

If it is just some random follower of Moradin, say a Dwarf Fighter or some blacksmith, then maybe it would slip past Moradin's notice, but to me it seems like a deity would take it pretty personally if they were impersonated to mess with one of their divine followers.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The big question that popped up for me is whether Moradin would allow such a false vision to take place in the first place?

If the character receiving the false vision is a Cleric of Moradin or otherwise has a close connection to the deity and ranks in Knowledge (Religion), I would think that it would be very difficult to fool them. At most, Moradin or one of his divine servants would try to set things straight with the Cleric, at the very least another Cleric of Moradin should be sought out to compare notes.

If it is just some random follower of Moradin, say a Dwarf Fighter or some blacksmith, then maybe it would slip past Moradin's notice, but to me it seems like a deity would take it pretty personally if they were impersonated to mess with one of their divine followers.

Deities are not omnipresent he might not know about the false vision. Also Moradin might want his cleric to figure it out himself. If deities were in the habit of handing out information they wouldn't grant divination spells.

[Raezeman]

Also Moradin might want his cleric to figure it out himself. If deities were in the habit of handing out information they wouldn't grant divination spells.

Paladin actually

[TuggyNE]

Deities are not omnipresent he might not know about the false vision.

*coughPortfolioSensecough*

[SethoMarkus]

Deities are not omnipresent he might not know about the false vision. Also Moradin might want his cleric to figure it out himself. If deities were in the habit of handing out information they wouldn't grant divination spells.

I more meant it as a generalized statement. Divine/extraplanar beings of Moradin's realm might intervene, or other particularly high level clerics/paladins, or even another party member. Basically, just that impersonating the deity itself probably wouldn't go unnoticed, especially if the deceived worshiper started talking about the vision. "Oh wow, Moradin came to you in a vision? He came to me, too, and said that we shouldn't trust so-and-so. Maybe we should ask him for clarification?"

Although, if it were a so-called "Prophet" of Moradin that came to the player to be deceived and claimed he had a message from Moradin for the player, it might be a bit more subtle.

Of course, this is all my 2cp; make of it what you will.

[Raezeman]

Well, i think it would be a good thing if my players start to talk about the vision, and if they decide to be careful and not trust it, very good, have some rewards!
But i don't think that Moradin would interfere. I mean, for a god, or one of his highly divine extra planar beings to directly interfere in the mortal world, it would be for 'fate of the universe hangs in the balance' type situations, not 'hey, don't use my name you punk' type situations.
And if my player get's the (false) visions and asks if gods often visit the mortals for advice, i will say "Gods don't usually visit the mortals for mundane things."
If the player then reacts with: This must be really important then! well, he just got fooled. If he reacts with, then there maybe something more behind this, great for him, it might spare an innocent life.
i mean, they do live in a world with gods and magic, they know things aren't always as straight forward as they seem.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the Paladin should also be abusing Detect Evil like his life depended on it. When the vision says 'don't trust the noble and true being over there, and help the chaotic evil guy over there', but the chaotic evil guy blips on the old evildar, he might get the idea something's wrong.

Remember, the Paladin Code will still bite you in the ass and leave you powerless for being careless if the false vision makes you slay a Lawful Good being...(or any good being, really...)

[Raezeman]

Well, the Paladin should also be abusing Detect Evil like his life depended on it. When the vision says 'don't trust the noble and true being over there, and help the chaotic evil guy over there', but the chaotic evil guy blips on the old evildar, he might get the idea something's wrong.

Remember, the Paladin Code will still bite you in the ass and leave you powerless for being careless if the false vision makes you slay a Lawful Good being...(or any good being, really...)

Well, solution is (not something i just made up now, but has been going on forever): both the one the vision says to not trust, and the one the vision says protect him are friends of the players. The actual good one is more neutral, and the evil one knew the players long before he became evil, and always has an undetectable alignment on himself, because he knows the paladin's detect evil ability.
So basically, both are not what the players would expect to be evil, and neither would register on the detect evil scale. So basically², the vision would say: "don't trust this guy, he is not a friend, he is a traitor. Protect this guy, he is a friend and the traitor will try to kill him" Of course, in a more mystical vision kind of way

[Baroknik]

What level are the PCs/villain? I can think of several mechanics, but most are pretty level dependent for non-dreaming.

[Lord Vukodlak]

*coughPortfolioSensecough*

Still not omnipresent

[Techwarrior]

In regard to "unbeatable" Bluff checks:

I have often considered, as a general rule, neither rolling Sense Motive checks for players nor having them roll Sense Motive checks themselves, but instead allowing all Sense Motive checks made to detect lies to take 10 by default. I would also allow all Bluff checks to take 10 by default. Players would, of course, be allowed to choose to roll Sense Motive checks rather than take 10 if they suspected that somebody was lying to them. Everybody would still have to roll Bluff and Sense Motive checks when distracted or threatened, following the usual rule.

This is on the one hand fair in terms of mechanics, on the other hand allows me, the dungeon master, secretly to craft a few well-bluffed lies that the players themselves probably won't notice right away, because the liars are just a little more skilled than the PCs' lie-detectors.

I haven't field-tested these rules yet, but I think they would work well.

I have tested the idea myself. It's very similar to the idea of not rolling for AC and taking ten. It works very well in practice at my tables. I tell characters to roll for Bluff, but don't for Sense Motive, so they don't know they are being lied to unless they succeed. If I'm running an NPC who Bluffs, I typically allow them to take 10 unless the situation wouldn't allow them (in a real hurry, affected by Fear, etc. )

I did wind up hacking the rules for perception skills onto Sense Motive regarding actions when my players started asking for them all the time (requiring a Move action to roll an active Sense Motive).

[Raezeman]

What level are the PCs/villain? I can think of several mechanics, but most are pretty level dependent for non-dreaming.

Not sure when this will happen yet, but i'm open to suggestions. You don't have to completely explain everything if you don't want, just what mechanic and where i can find it.

[Angelalex242]

My Statement about the Code stands.

If the Paladin slays a good being, he's SCREWED. Period. No questions asked, no quarter given from heaven. (See, Miko right here in our very own order of the stick. Ya know what episode I'm talking about)

That said, you said the guy they were told not to trust is neutral. So it's not QUITE so bad if he gets his face stabbed off, and he probably won't lose powers over it.

Also, it's best to decide to how the undetectable alignment works, be it ring of mind shielding, spell cast, angelskin armor, whatever. Give the players a fair chance to thwart the anti detection stuff. It rewards investigative dispel magics.

[Baroknik]

All right, here are some of the things, I'm AFB at the moment, so will just give the general ideas.

Combat Sleep-based mechanisms -- Note that these could work under the assumption that sleep time is different than real time

*Drow Sleeping Poison (delivered by a follower of BBEG) followed by Dream
*Sleep (or any other spell) followed by Dream
**Note any sleep mechanism mid-combat could work for this (once again, if you rule that dream time is not 1:1 with real time)

Other mechanisms

*Separate the Paladin from his group (funny noise he investigates, etc) followed up by a disguise or illusion
*Magic Trap that will go off under the conditions of a LG Dwarf being near that causes a Magic Mouth or something similar along with an illusion to create the scene -- bonus points if you stun the Dwarf somehow so that he is in awe the entire time
**Make this one some sort of Phantasm custom-researched spell even and then only the Dwarf can see the illusions
**Make the trap cast see invisibility on the Dwarf and have the illusions be cast with invisible spell so that no one can see it but him. Have the message be delivered telepathically or via a Sending
*(This one I have used as a BBEG theme) Have the player find a precious looking gem of unknown make that is shaped like the Hammer of Moradin. He will likely carry it with him for some time. In reality, it is a preciously shaped/cut psicrystal for the BBEG. Over time, the psicrystal uses its telepathy to talk to the Dwarf (as well as relay information to the BBEG). The crystal can whisper things in his mind -- generally being helpful until it is ready to set a plan in motion (that is, once the Dwarf trusts the voice in his head and believes it is the voice of Moradin himself -- this one is really dependent on you selling it to the player)

Honestly, the last one was one of my favorite iterations of being evil to a player. It was a pretty high intrigue campaign with no magic/psionic transparency and psionics fairly rare (they were considered heretics, so the party couldn't find any easily to realize the crystal was psicrafted). It eventually led to the Barbarian (who loved shiny things) killing the Wizard (by mistaking a bodyswap) in the final battle with the BBEG. Ultimately, only the barbarian survived the fight and was recognized as a hero, but lived the rest of his life in a dark haze realizing what he had done to his comrades (the early death of the Wizard was likely responsible for the deaths of the bard, warblade, and FS in that fight).

[TuggyNE]

Still not omnipresent

I think you're missing my point, which is that pretending to be, say, Moradin, is almost sure to trigger Moradin's Remote Sensing* (because, you know, someone is likely to spill the beans by saying his name), at which point he can simply say "hmm, that little blip 30 seconds ago looks interesting, let's see what that was" and determine that someone is impersonating him.

What, if anything, Moradin might choose to do about this knowledge I am less sure about, but the knowledge would be there.

Also, the word you were looking for was not omnipresent, but omniscient, since it doesn't matter if the deity is there as long as they know about it.

*I had thought it was a part of Portfolio Sense, but it isn't. So correction made

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think you're missing my point, which is that pretending to be, say, Moradin, is almost sure to trigger Moradin's Remote Sensing* (because, you know, someone is likely to spill the beans by saying his name), at which point he can simply say "hmm, that little blip 30 seconds ago looks interesting, let's see what that was" and determine that someone is impersonating him.[/COLOR]

Hundreds perhaps thousands of people would be saying a greater deities name everyday he wouldn't have time to look in at all of them.

[watchwood]

My Statement about the Code stands.

If the Paladin slays a good being, he's SCREWED. Period. No questions asked, no quarter given from heaven. (See, Miko right here in our very own order of the stick. Ya know what episode I'm talking about)

That said, you said the guy they were told not to trust is neutral. So it's not QUITE so bad if he gets his face stabbed off, and he probably won't lose powers over it.

Also, it's best to decide to how the undetectable alignment works, be it ring of mind shielding, spell cast, angelskin armor, whatever. Give the players a fair chance to thwart the anti detection stuff. It rewards investigative dispel magics.

Miko didn't kill just anyone, she killed her unarmed and defenseless liege lord in cold blood, specifically rejecting the option of giving him a fair trial for his alleged crimes. That's right out on the far end of the extreme scale, for murder.

[TuggyNE]

Hundreds perhaps thousands of people would be saying a greater deities name everyday he wouldn't have time to look in at all of them.

How convenient, then, that such a deity can use their remote sensing on up to 20 locations at a time, and that most such uses will be clumped (i.e. in temples), with dozens or hundreds of uses in the same general area. And since it only takes a standard action to start, that means they can check on up to 14400 locations a day, and that's before action economy shenanigans, which deities should generally be capable of anyway.