Can Tarquin redeem himself?

[Smash_Gordon]

I know Giant has his bases covered, but while we're waiting for the new strip all I can do is baselessly speculate.

Just as Miko was used as an example of a Lawful Good antagonist, I feel like Tarquin (a similarly polarizing character, if this forum is any indication) may be capable of change of heart, assuming he survives into the next book.

If he re-evaluates what kind of story he's in, he may realize the (narrative) error of his ways. Just as Miko's role was to sabotage Soon's killing stroke, it might be a nice touch to have an arc villain turn into the hero's cavalry - and realizing the conventions of the story, Tarquin would know he is heading to his death but go anyway for the sake of his son.

Once again, Giant has a plan, and it probably involves something more creative and fleshed out than this, but I felt it was an interesting thought.

[Kish]

Tarquin is as capable of change and redemption as Xykon. His "love" for the son he hasn't murdered is utterly twisted and selfish; he does not truly love anything but his own ego.

I recognize that some people do not believe what I just said is accurate, but I will be utterly astounded if anything in the comic ever contradicts it.

[Friv]

Tarquin is about as likely to redeem himself as Roy is likely to betray the party and become the last boss.

[Landis963]

Pft. Does he want to? I don't believe he does.

[Smash_Gordon]

I understand that Tarquin is a complete sociopath, but once his ego is put aside he is nothing but pragmatic.

Sure, he's throwing a temper tantrum here, but wasn't everyone in a worse place before they grew as characters? - Basically, even if he does not love his son in the way that would result in some kind of sacrifice play, he understands stories.

My conjecture was - what if Tarquin realizes he HAS to help, or everyone dies? Sure, siding with the heroes against the God-eating abomination is pretty cliche, but it's also sane.

edit: I would also take 'being a sacrificial distraction so the heroes can get in close'

[Sir_Leorik]

Tarquin can not be redeemed. End of story. If you were to ask about Redcloak, maybe my answer might be different, but Tarquin? He's a petty and vain tyrant who murders people in horrific ways for his own amusement. Who does that remind you of? Here's a hint: Xykon.

[StLordeth]

Who does that remind you of? Adolf Hitler?

[Astroturtle]

Tarquin is going to end locked in a small room with Nale for the rest of eternity.

[Mammal]

Tarquin is going to end locked in a small room with Nale for the rest of eternity.

May I refer you to the last row of this strip? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html)

[The Pilgrim]

Sure, Tarquin can redeem himself. A shotgun shot in the mouth would do the trick.

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin is going to end locked in a small room with Nale for the rest of eternity.

How Book 5 should end:

:nale: Gosh, Dad, thanks so much for conquering the world with me. Our legacy will live on forever now.
:tarquin: Shut up, son.

[Ewig Custos]

Short answer is "no".
And you really don't need a long answer.

[factotum]

I don't believe anyone is utterly irredeemable. However, in this particular instance I would have to ask, what benefit to plot or story do we get from Tarquin having a change of heart? Unless he's planning to do a Han Solo and rescue them during the climactic battle scene, but I doubt the Giant would do anything that cliched.

[truemane]

I think he absolutely could be redeemed. Especially if he decided that the narrative arc required him to 'pull Vader' and die saving the universe. Even ihe did it for the wrong reasons, he'd still do it.

(thereby prompting, perhaps, a long debate on what, precisely constitutes 'redemption' but I don't want to go down that road)

And the main thrust of the story is that Tarquin is not occupying the role he thinks he is. The story isn't about him. He's only a bit player in a much larger conflict.

Once he realizes this? I could see him going full-martyr.

[Dodom]

I don't think Tarquin would stop being evil if he lost what he was evil over. The narrative goes to hell? If he doesn't die right away, he'll find a new game, and he'll cause as much misery over it, as if nothing had changed.

[Plactus]

The best I can see for Tarquin is deciding Xykon is a threat to his position as the central villain of the story and trying to take him out to cement his claim to that role. Then, maybe, when Xykon stomps him, having a Darth Malak-esque realization ("In the end, as darkness takes me, I am nothing.") in his final moments.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think he absolutely could be redeemed. Especially if he decided that the narrative arc required him to 'pull Vader' and die saving the universe. Even ihe did it for the wrong reasons, he'd still do it.

(thereby prompting, perhaps, a long debate on what, precisely constitutes 'redemption' but I don't want to go down that road)
No, please, go down that road. Redemption can involve assigning your agency to a trustworthy and trusted force or being other than yourself when you don't trust yourself to make a good decision anymore. The question that arises, if one actually accepts this as a redemptive act, is whether "the narrative" is a trustworthy force that is productive of decent behavior. Given that Tarquin has already invoked "the narrative" to justify anything and everything he's already done, I suspect not.

[BlackDragonKing]

On one hand, I think pretty much anyone can be redeemed, otherwise you are suggesting that Evil is stronger than Good, which I've never believed in. A big part of that has to be that the character WANTS redemption, however, and for the right reasons.

Miko can't do this because the first step in redeeming herself is acknowledging she is wrong, and her psychology just was not up to the task in life. People that blame others for their own shortcomings will never redeem themselves until they are willing to step outside their own perspective.

Tarquin's further along than Miko because he knows what he's doing makes him a villain but he considers what he does important, neccessary, and, this is important, enjoyable. Tarquin wouldn't seek redemption because it goes so against the lifestyle he is accustomed to and enjoys so much, and if he did it wouldn't work because Tarquin's thought process for performing good acts would be too cynical to truly redeem him. I feel like Nale and Elan were born because Tarquin tried to stop being evil for a while and decided long ago he didn't like it.

Nale is basically irredeemable for the same reason; he enjoys being an egotistical bastard too much and his spite and megalomania mean he'll never consider what he's doing something he should feel bad about or stop. If Nale could exist with people peacefully and let things go, he wouldn't be Nale.

Xykon's obviously the worst, since he exists for pointless acts of sadism to amuse himself and takes pleasure in being disgustingly, disturbingly vile to everyone around him.

Redcloak could have been redeemed once, but I think at this point he can't bring himself to turn aside; the ship sailed long ago, and his obsession will carry him on to his death.

Redemption requires an evil character to examine and act against their nature for good reasons; had Malack, for example, found that he could not bring himself to harm Durkon after they had become friends, even though it was clear there was no way to protect Durkon AND advance his own goals, that would have opened a window for Malack to be redeemed because he chose a good action and hurt his own ambitions out of friendship for another.

[Tass]

Tarquin is as redeemable as a saphire guard discount coupon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0287.html)

[ti'esar]

Heck no....

[Morty]

If Tarquin was redeemable, he wouldn't be Tarquin. Someone with even a sliver of hope for being better wouldn't have done all that he's done.

[Math_Mage]

It's theoretically possible that he might undergo a profound spiritual and philosophical conversion in the last years of his life and dedicate himself to atonement...but it's not going to happen.

[Heksefatter]

It's theoretically possible that he might undergo a profound spiritual and philosophical conversion in the last years of his life and dedicate himself to atonement...but it's not going to happen.

This.

I don't see it happening, even from Tarquin's character or what the story seems to be leading towards.

[DaggerPen]

I'm a firm believer that redemption is possible for anyone, but I find it vanishingly unlikely that it's going to happen for Tarquin. Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all, and Tarquin has done tremendous, systematic evil over the course of his lifetime, with absolutely no concern for anyone outside of his circle of friends and family, and a twisted, manipulative relationship with many of them as well. If he were to be redeemed, a simple cavalry arrival wouldn't cut it - that might turn him from an antagonist into an ally, but it wouldn't make him any less evil. It'd require actual remorse for what he'd done, and an effort to make amends as best as he is able, channeling his vast personal resources into actually improving the lives of those he'd conquered, freeing the slaves, etc., etc., handing the reigns over to a competent Good leader, and then living in poverty and atoning for the rest of his life.

I don't see that as a particularly likely path for him.

[jidasfire]

Usually, redemption is tied to at least one or two traits or actions which might lead us to believe the character in question is not utterly despicable or at least not set completely in their ways. Sadly, in Tarquin's case, he has generally shown signs of being both. One could argue the fact that he loves his sons shows he is not competely evil, but his love, sincere though it may be, is narcissistic and conditional. His goal of creating order from chaos, which could in some lights be seen as admirable, is predicated largely upon oppressing, murdering, and torturing anyone who is even mildly inconvenient to his goals, while pludering the system he creates to the fullest extent.

More to the point, there's nothing to indicate he is capable of any sort of change. Now, you might say that Belkar, who has long been the poster child for amoral murderousness in the comic, has recently begun to show signs of growth after years of nearly no humanity or depth, but Belkar is a major protagonist who has had real years worth of development, and even then, it's limited, incomplete, and, to some, debatable. Tarquin, the major villain of a single arc, is not likely to be given that much time in the spotlight. Elan suggested that Tarquin has likely only grown into a worse person in his old age, and his own hope that his father might change is utterly unrealistic.

So no, nothing in the text suggests Tarquin will change his ways, not even if he had more time.

[Oko and Qailee]

Tarquin is about as likely to redeem himself as Roy is likely to betray the party and become the last boss.

Less likely IMO.

It's a lot harder to go from Evil to Good than Good to Evil. Evil is tempting because you get so many positive reinforcements, but nothing really makes you feel good from altruism except for any happiness you derive from being altruistic

[King of Nowhere]

in theory tarquin would be redeemable; but would he want to be redeemed? he just enjoy the way he is, he has no reason to change. he may help the order against xykon (he already offered to do so), but that would not count as redemption.

[CaDzilla]

There's always the Sanctify the Wicked spell. Although it might not work on Tarquin.
Also:
Tarquin: Wait, if I'm not the main villain.... then I'm that one early villain that the writer forgets about and gets no comeuppance!

[Harbinger]

Can Tarquin redeem himself? Sure, anyone can. Does he have the capacity to admit he was wrong, or the empathy to feel bad for it and try to atone? No.

[Snails]

Tarquin's further along than Miko because he knows what he's doing makes him a villain but he considers what he does important, neccessary, and, this is important, enjoyable. Tarquin wouldn't seek redemption because it goes so against the lifestyle he is accustomed to and enjoys so much, and if he did it wouldn't work because Tarquin's thought process for performing good acts would be too cynical to truly redeem him. I feel like Nale and Elan were born because Tarquin tried to stop being evil for a while and decided long ago he didn't like it.

I agree with this reasoning.

I can imagine plausible scenarios for Tarquin to "reverse" himself, where he might choose to act as an overt ally to Elan. But I would not call that "redeeming", which implies a personal recognition that previously actions were wrong and new path must be forged for Good reasons.

[Snails]

Can Tarquin redeem himself? Sure, anyone can. Does he have the capacity to admit he was wrong, or the empathy to feel bad for it and try to atone? No.

That is the big problem, right there.

For a person who can choose to be quite chatty about his personal thought processes, there are amazingly few instances where Tarquin appears to suggest he himself is capable human emotions. The "best" evidence is how he admits that dunking people in acid could be worth a chuckle. It is also unclear whether his empathy skills rise above ability to observe the fact of suffering in others as proof of his ability to apply power.

Tarquin makes Spock look like a Betazoid. Which is why Tarquin finally getting mad in the last few panels is so noteworthy.

How can someone atone who cannot feel their own actions were wrong?

[FabulousFizban]

The best I can see for Tarquin is deciding Xykon is a threat to his position as the central villain of the story and trying to take him out to cement his claim to that role. Then, maybe, when Xykon stomps him, having a Darth Malak-esque realization ("In the end, as darkness takes me, I am nothing.") in his final moments.

Is Xykon the central villain, or is Redcloak?

[ti'esar]

Is Xykon the central villain, or is Redcloak?

I think they both are (in that neither would be as effective without the other), but if I had to pick just one, it's Xykon. But the point is that it's not Tarquin.

However, his current behavior suggests very strongly that he'd be unlikely to take that revelation gracefully - if he's even psychologically-capable of admitting it.

[CrispyCriminal]

I find that when one knows how to read a script and bend it to his will, that person tends to find ways to skirt the responsibility for his actions, or tries to depending on how well written the script in general is. Responsibility is the core point of redemption, to make up for your actions so the burden of past deeds be lifted. Not everything can be forgotten, but making sure it won't happen again will arguably suffice.

Tarquin is well aware of all of this, and it's why he is where he is now instead of on the throne where the albatross for blame and shame sits. Empire troubles? That's okay, ditch it and make a new one out of it's leathery heavily branded carcass and paint it black with a Rolling Stones finish to hint at how long we've been at this gig. It's not like the record labels can sue us and see a penny gp out of it!

[Harbinger]

Is Xykon the central villain, or is Redcloak?

It doesn't matter, because both of them are more plot-central and more powerful than Tarquin.

I really think it would be funny to watch Redcloak Implode Tarquin, by the way.

[Anarion]

Why? Just, for goodness sake, why would anyone want Tarquin to redeem himself? What purpose does it serve? The character has no history in this comic, having appeared as he is now only in the current arc. There's nothing to be gained for Elan, who has already learned his lesson about judging family and now about finding family. It wouldn't remove what Tarquin has already done or bring back the lives of those he's killed.

Why even discuss redemption? Like, the theoretical concept of redemption itself with a character like that? I have to think that it arises from an approach to literary interpretation that judges a character's rights and wrongs like the weights on a scale (feather calibration or no:smalltongue:). But that makes no sense for a character like Tarquin, who casts himself in a role with the intention of playing out that role. If he changed his role and suddenly became a paragon of virtue, he still would have spent years and years playing the role of vile secret dictator. Redemption as a literary concept is inseparably connected with the idea of a character arc: a person who acts, regrets, changes, and is redeemed. But Tarquin is written as actually incapable of that. He adopted a character arc that dies in a bloody finale in exchange for years of pleasure. To adopt a new character for himself would not be regret or change, it would be abandonment and, frankly, a form of madness.

[BlackDragonKing]

People seem to think that Tarquin would take it as some huge, earth-shattering revelation that Xykon is more powerful and a bigger threat than he is, but I'm not sure where people are getting that from aside from incorrectly associating his self-centeredness with stupidity. Which is understandable, as he is the replacement for Nale, who was both self-centered AND stupid, but when you think about it...

Tarquin WANTS a smaller-scale story because he weighed it up and likes his odds in one. "Xykon's a bigger deal in the big picture because he wants to rule/destroy the world" is not some huge, unthought-of revelation that would utterly shatter Tarquin's worldview; he knows perfectly well Elan is fighting someone with global ambitions and considers it in his interests to let Elan do so because that protects his REGIONAL ambitions. Being a smaller-scale bad guy that isn't widely known before he's ready to lose is FINE with Tarquin because that role lets him live it up for decades virtually unopposed before good triumphs over evil. Tarquin forced this fight mostly because he wants to make sure that Elan comes back leading a party of his own when things are done with. Tarquin doesn't INTEND to overshadow Xykon and he never did; he just has to OUTLAST him. He's perfectly fine with Elan focusing on Xykon while Tarquin and his team finish absorbing the continent, at which point things are fine as long as Elan comes back a hero in his own right instead of Roy's lackey.

This neatly encapsulates why Tarquin can't be redeemed; he's not a psychopath like Xykon who literally can't control his id for five seconds in a row, he's a sociopath who weighed things up and decided being a tyrant precisely THIS evil and THIS noticeable will make for the maximum amount of enjoyment for him before someone defeats him. A person who thinks like that knows full well what they're doing is morally wrong and doesn't see what's so great about being morally right. Strange as it sounds, Tarquin isn't just unable to redeem himself because he's too Evil to do so, part of his problem is that he's actually way, way, WAY too Lawful in his own horrible way.

[Amphiox]

For Tarquin to be redeemed, his character would have to move a LONG way from where it is now. He would need an arc as long, involved, and to which as much attention was paid, as Belkar's arc.

That would be a lot of time to devote to a non-primary character.

And would that actually be anything that anyone would want to see? Would it add anything of value to the narrative?

Tarquin as he is now might well choose to act against Xykon, but he would NEVER sacrifice himself deliberately in the doing of it. (I could see him trying some intrigue to hinder Xykon with the hope that Xykon never finds out he is behind it). Better the world be unmade than he not be the central figure of it, in his mind.

[ti'esar]

Why even discuss redemption? Like, the theoretical concept of redemption itself with a character like that? I have to think that it arises from an approach to literary interpretation that judges a character's rights and wrongs like the weights on a scale (feather calibration or no:smalltongue:). But that makes no sense for a character like Tarquin, who casts himself in a role with the intention of playing out that role. If he changed his role and suddenly became a paragon of virtue, he still would have spent years and years playing the role of vile secret dictator. Redemption as a literary concept is inseparably connected with the idea of a character arc: a person who acts, regrets, changes, and is redeemed. But Tarquin is written as actually incapable of that. He adopted a character arc that dies in a bloody finale in exchange for years of pleasure. To adopt a new character for himself would not be regret or change, it would be abandonment and, frankly, a form of madness.

Personally, I think it has more to do with the fact that he was introduced with a Darth Vader joke.

Also, BlackDragonKing, your scenario still has Xykon as basically an obstacle to be overcome before the climactic showdown with Tarquin. He's still at the center of the story. What Tarquin does not believe (and given his high capacity for self-delusion may be unable to believe) is not that Xykon is more powerful than him or poses a bigger threat to the world, but that he is less important narratively than Xykon.

[BlackDragonKing]

Personally, I think it has more to do with the fact that he was introduced with a Darth Vader joke.

Also, BlackDragonKing, your scenario still has Xykon as basically an obstacle to be overcome before the climactic showdown with Tarquin. He's still at the center of the story. What Tarquin does not believe (and given his high capacity for self-delusion may be unable to believe) is not that Xykon is more powerful than him or poses a bigger threat to the world, but that he is less important narratively than Xykon.

To be honest, basic psychology means "this is a story about me" is hard-wired into the human perception of the world. Someone that actually thinks they're a side character is insane, even if they are.

I'm merely commenting that Tarquin is not going to feel threatened or horrified by the notion most people would consider Xykon more narratively significant than him; Xykon has another narrative that only very tangentially interacts with the one Tarquin cares about, and it's one that Tarquin is reasonably confident will be wrapped up before his.

[balladfen]

If he were redeemed, the forum would explode with people explaining why he was even worse than before because of it. We have people arguing that he's stupid and uncharismatic, that level of detachment from reality doesn't care about his moral behavior. So if Rich Burlew ever wants to look at the forums without sighing so hard his organs come out his mouth, he won't have Tarquin redeem himself.

Characterwise? Unlikely. He's very self-aware, which makes sincere actions suspicious, self-aware enough to have thought his morality through. If he's okay with being a villain now, he's hardly going to decide in a week he's not okay with being a villain anymore, and he's pretty explicitly announced he's okay with being a villain. He's certainly more likely to redeem himself than, say, Redcloak (who had redemption handed to him on a silver platter and threw it away because it would have required him to admit he had done something wrong, for which I will always despise him), but still not likely to try.

[Cirrylius]

Tarquin's redemption would require a near-total breakdown of his psychology; proofs strong enough that he'd acknowledge either his core assumptions about Narrative Mechanics are wrong, or that he's applying them incorrectly or inappropriately. Given his ego, I can't imagine that threat of his own death, or even the destruction of the world, would be enough, because he'd never acknowledge that personal failure of that scope is possible for a protagonist, so he'd die (or world go boom) still trying to find another option that brings him out on top.

The only thing I could imagine that would act as a catalyst for Tarquin's redemption would be 1) the destruction of everything he's worked for in his life in an unexpected, non-narrative fashion, or 2)Elan's irrevocable death. One of his most important concerns would have to be taken from him, and it would have to be seen to be unambiguously his own fault.

[Maryring]

Can Tarquin redeem himself? Theoretically yes.

Can Tarquin redeem himself in a way that is satisfying to the audience, believeable, a positive addition and does not involve the "Mindrape" spell? Current projections place that as somewhere between "no way in hell" and "not in a million billion stories".

[plasmid]

the short answer:
:nale: this is horsecrap
the long answer:
maybe, but the only way i can see him turns is magic or death (and even if that happens, not even ellen will forgive him). we will have to wait for post-death redemption, and the only guy that is cruel enough to give him the first option is nale

[ReaderAt2046]

I believe that everyone is capable of being redeemed. That being said, not everyone who can be redeemed will be, and I see absolutely no sign that Tarquin will be redeemed.

[masamune1]

To be honest, basic psychology means "this is a story about me" is hard-wired into the human perception of the world. Someone that actually thinks they're a side character is insane, even if they are.

I'm merely commenting that Tarquin is not going to feel threatened or horrified by the notion most people would consider Xykon more narratively significant than him; Xykon has another narrative that only very tangentially interacts with the one Tarquin cares about, and it's one that Tarquin is reasonably confident will be wrapped up before his.

That isn't true. It might be the base assumption for many or most people, but its hardly abnormal for that perception to change. Most people live fairly normal, humdrum lives and are dimly or highly aware that bigger things than them are going on. This only gets stronger if you are around people who are particularly charismatic or impressive, or who for one reason or another dominates the show.

Besides, most stories are just snapshots of peoples lives. Elan knows full well he is a supporting character and that Roy is the real hero- but, there is a before and after for him that the reader will probably not see (unless there is a sequel, which is Tarquin's only hope). Its perfectly normal not to think the story is not all about you, and there are many scenarios where that is even more true (say...you are supporting someone at a sports event, for example). Its more like people are living through several stories (or story arcs) at once.


But I agree with what you say about Tarquin. He thinks Elan is the hero and thus, Xykon is an arc villain. That he is a bigger threat doesn't matter because Tarquin is more personal and, perhaps, more likely to succeed. If Elan was the main character we'd been following he might even have been right, even if nothing else in the story had changed. Of course, he is still narrow-minded- he should realize that even if Xykon is the main villain there are ways for him to come out of this (eg. spin-off; sequel; surviving this story arc and coming back later- which will hopefully still happen). He seems to think that Elan is Luke Skywalker (right down to the "I will cut off your hand") but forgets that Luke Skywalker wasn't the leader of the Rebellion, so he shouldn't have to kill Roy.

In fact, he probably doesn't understand story conventions as well as he thinks he does. His ideas are too rigid and formulaic.

[Wardog]

To be honest, basic psychology means "this is a story about me" is hard-wired into the human perception of the world. Someone that actually thinks they're a side character is insane, even if they are.


Really?

I'm sure plenty of people can accept that the world doesn't revolve around them, or that other peopel are more important.

[factotum]

What I said earlier about Tarquin being redeemable? I've changed my mind. If he wasn't insane before, he certainly is now after being denied by *both* his sons...

[Cirrylius]

I'm sure plenty of people can accept that the world doesn't revolve around them, or that other peopel are more important.

Most people know it, rationally. But when it comes down to it, people have much more intensive knowledge of themselves and their own motivations than of others', making them the most fully fleshed-out character in existence from their own perspective, and therefore the most sympathizable and compelling.

[Math_Mage]

That isn't true. It might be the base assumption for many or most people, but its hardly abnormal for that perception to change. Most people live fairly normal, humdrum lives and are dimly or highly aware that bigger things than them are going on. This only gets stronger if you are around people who are particularly charismatic or impressive, or who for one reason or another dominates the show.

Really?

I'm sure plenty of people can accept that the world doesn't revolve around them, or that other peopel are more important.
I won't attempt to prove Cirrylius' point, but you are both using terms like 'bigger things' or 'important' without giving them a context, when context is the whole point. Yes, I am a bit player in the world's story, but I'm still the protagonist of my story, and therefore uniquely important to myself. Barack Obama is way more important than me to a story about the world, America, or even my university, but he's not particularly important to the story of me, or the story of my family, or the story of my immediate cohort. So the question is in what frame people experience their lives, and to me at least, it seems intuitive that people would tend to experience the smaller stories more than the larger ones. (Awkward phrasing, but I hope I made my point regardless.)

[masamune1]

I won't attempt to prove Cirrylius' point, but you are both using terms like 'bigger things' or 'important' without giving them a context, when context is the whole point. Yes, I am a bit player in the world's story, but I'm still the protagonist of my story, and therefore uniquely important to myself. Barack Obama is way more important than me to a story about the world, America, or even my university, but he's not particularly important to the story of me, or the story of my family, or the story of my immediate cohort. So the question is in what frame people experience their lives, and to me at least, it seems intuitive that people would tend to experience the smaller stories more than the larger ones. (Awkward phrasing, but I hope I made my point regardless.)

I think I did give them context. In the following paragraph you didn't quote. People live multiple stories throughout their lives, sometimes several at once, and one man in his time plays many parts.

[Math_Mage]

I think I did give them context. In the following paragraph you didn't quote. People live multiple stories throughout their lives, sometimes several at once, and one man in his time plays many parts.
Mmm, fair enough. I didn't internalize the latter paragraphs at the time of reply.

[BlackDragonKing]

Really?

I'm sure plenty of people can accept that the world doesn't revolve around them, or that other peopel are more important.

There's a difference between that and "this thing I'm experiencing every day is a story about me".

People will generally be aware that they are not as significant on the world stage as, say, the President, but I don't believe anybody seriously thinks of their life as the background noise in someone more important's journey. I don't think that's the case even in things like OOTS itself; every last one of the Sapphire Guard that died in the same arc they appeared in likely considered their life a narrative about their trials and tribulations in the Sapphire guard, defending the fabric of the universe. Every single one of them thought of themselves as the hero of that story, albeit one of many. I would be ASTONISHED if one of the Sapphire Guard thought that their role in life is the 63rd blue guy standing behind O-Chul when stuff goes down, which is also where their life ends. More likely, they thought their role in life was being a guardian of Soon's Gate and vanquisher of those that would threaten it; the hero of their personal narrative.

I mean, hell, Kasumi and Daigo are a perfectly good example that people who "clearly are" side characters don't think of themselves as such, nor should they.

[ti'esar]

Thing is, I don't think Tarquin is either capable of or willing to admit that there are really any other "stories" in the world besides his own. The Giant has said before that in Tarquin's mind, the only two people at the meeting in the desert were him and Elan, and I'm all but certain Elan matters only inasmuch as Tarquin is "his" villain.

[Math_Mage]

Thing is, I don't think Tarquin is either capable of or willing to admit that there are really any other "stories" in the world besides his own. The Giant has said before that in Tarquin's mind, the only two people at the meeting in the desert were him and Elan, and I'm all but certain Elan matters only inasmuch as Tarquin is "his" villain.
Turn that around: Elan only matters inasmuch as he is Tarquin's rebellious son whose existence is defined by his relationship with Tarquin. (See also: Nale.) But I agree with the overall point.

[Sir_Leorik]

I think he absolutely could be redeemed. Especially if he decided that the narrative arc required him to 'pull Vader' and die saving the universe. Even ihe did it for the wrong reasons, he'd still do it.

(thereby prompting, perhaps, a long debate on what, precisely constitutes 'redemption' but I don't want to go down that road)

And the main thrust of the story is that Tarquin is not occupying the role he thinks he is. The story isn't about him. He's only a bit player in a much larger conflict.

Once he realizes this? I could see him going full-martyr.


No, please, go down that road. Redemption can involve assigning your agency to a trustworthy and trusted force or being other than yourself when you don't trust yourself to make a good decision anymore. The question that arises, if one actually accepts this as a redemptive act, is whether "the narrative" is a trustworthy force that is productive of decent behavior. Given that Tarquin has already invoked "the narrative" to justify anything and everything he's already done, I suspect not.

zimmer, do you mind if I cite that the next time you're slamming V's inability to achieve redemption for herself? :smallamused:


Tarquin makes Spock look like a Betazoid. Which is why Tarquin finally getting mad in the last few panels is so noteworthy.

It's a common misconception that Vulcans either lack emotions or lack the ability to empathize with others. In fact Vulcan emotions are so powerful that they need to be kept in check at all times, or they will be overwhelmed by them. (See e.g., Leonard Nimoy in "Amok Time", as Spock becomes violent during Ponn Farr; or Patrick Stewart in "Sarek", when Picard mindmelds with Sarek, to give the elderly Vulcan a portion of Picard's self-control, only to be flooded with turbulent emotions.) Likewise, not all Betazeds behave like Lwaxanna Troi.

If anything, Tarquin behaves like a TOS Klingon, especially Kor, Koloth or Kruge. Tarquin has a code of honor that he sheds when it becomes inconvenient for him.

[zimmerwald1915]

zimmer, do you mind if I cite that the next time you're slamming V's inability to achieve redemption for herself? :smallamused:
Feel free, but it's not exactly some kind of innovation or departure from my position. I've argued in the past that V could seek absolution from Tiamat, unlikely though it is that she might grant such a plea. I've also argued that her number one priority ought to be confessing everything to Roy, and that she could surrender her spellbooks and right to choose what spells to prepare as a manifestation of her recognition that she is not to be trusted with autonomy.

[Math_Mage]

Feel free, but it's not exactly some kind of innovation or departure from my position. I've argued in the past that V could seek absolution from Tiamat, unlikely though it is that she might grant such a plea. I've also argued that her number one priority ought to be confessing everything to Roy, and that she could surrender her spellbooks and right to choose what spells to prepare as a manifestation of her recognition that she is not to be trusted with autonomy.
I don't remember 'surrendering moral agency' being a prerequisite for atonement. Submitting oneself to the proper authorities is a Lawful form of atonement, but not the only one.

[Boring McReader]

It would take another 934 pages of character reversal and lots of profound meditation for Tarquin to begin dreaming about someday redeeming himself. It's not gonna happen. He could decide to help save the world in some manner, if he's still in the story by then. But it wouldn't redeem him.

(Darth Vader saving his son from the Emperor on an already-doomed Death Star is about as weak as redemption comes. It's a pet peeve of mine.)

[factotum]

(Darth Vader saving his son from the Emperor on an already-doomed Death Star is about as weak as redemption comes. It's a pet peeve of mine.)

The Death Star wasn't actually already doomed at the point he did that, so as far as Darth Vader was concerned, he *was* saving his son from the emperor--and that's the point as far as it being a moment of redemption, surely? My problem with that scene comes from the prequels, because not only do we find out that Vader pretty much got Palpatine into power in the first place, some of the stuff he did along the way to doing that was truly horrendous (e.g. killing all the children in the Jedi Temple). I just don't think a single act *can* atone for something like that, especially when said act could be said to just be fixing a mistake you made twenty years earlier.

[Thrair]

I'd say there's a better chance of V pulling the stick out of his/her/it's arse, or Xykon using proper strategy instead of whatever whim strikes him at the time.

[Ridureyu]

But Xykon demonstrated quite a bit of strategy when he fought uber-V. Sure, it was bludgeoning strategy, but he used his lower-level powers effectively. While delivering a speech about how.

[Boring McReader]

The Death Star wasn't actually already doomed at the point he did that, so as far as Darth Vader was concerned, he *was* saving his son from the emperor--and that's the point as far as it being a moment of redemption, surely? My problem with that scene comes from the prequels, because not only do we find out that Vader pretty much got Palpatine into power in the first place, some of the stuff he did along the way to doing that was truly horrendous (e.g. killing all the children in the Jedi Temple). I just don't think a single act *can* atone for something like that, especially when said act could be said to just be fixing a mistake you made twenty years earlier.

All true, and all reasons I don't consider his action redemption. Saving one's own child at the expense of a stranger is one of the most natural impulses in life. You could be the most brutal dictator in history and still take exception to someone killing your son before your eyes. It doesn't redeem you.

Clearly, the movie believes something deeper is going on inside Vader's head. He isn't merely saving his son when he hurls the Emperor down the shaft. He's rejecting everything the Emperor and Empire stand for. But the consequences of what he does are so minor, and his turned-around life so brief, it's a huge stretch to credit him with anything approaching a balanced record. He saves his own son's life, and the rest plays out the way it was already headed.

The best thing Vader ever did for the galaxy was to father Luke, who was instrumental in toppling the Empire. He also failed to shoot down Luke's fighter at a critical moment, but that was never presented as a moral decision. His conscious choices caused immeasurable pain and suffering. Even though he found his humanity at the end, rejecting his past didn't absolve him of his many crimes.

Back on topic, if Tarquin had a deep, sincere moment of insight that led him to reject everything he'd stood for, then gave up his life saving the world with only altruism in his heart, would he die a redeemed man? I don't believe he would. He'd die as a good-intentioned person with a lifetime of evil acts he couldn't begin to answer for, and he'd be the first to agree with that.

The ending of Planescape: Torment is relevant here. (Not joking, big spoilers here) Your character has lived many lifetimes, and in many of them he was ruthlessly evil and manipulative. Throughout the many hours it takes to complete the game, he chooses between good, evil, self-serving, altruistic, and neutral actions. He can win the game with his soul shattered and small, or heal himself and ascend to godlike insight. He can have some of his worst crimes forgiven by the souls he wronged. Yet every game ends the same way: he descends to Hell to fight in the Blood War for another eternity. His past crimes are so great, there is no other path for him, even with ultimate enlightenment.

[The_Weirdo]

Sure! A Helm of Reverse Alignment, billions of gold pieces in resurrection spells for the mass murders, and we're all set!

[Fish]

Tarquin has many allies and resources. Were he to become Elan's friend and patron, would it make the final battle against Xykon anticlimactic? I rather think so; thus, if Tarquin redeems himself and turns good, I reckon it wouldn't be for long.

Standard disclaimer: I'm not saying it can't be done, or that Rich is required to do thus-and-so. He often does things I don't predict, but which make perfect sense. This is my opinion only.

[ti'esar]

Tarquin has many allies and resources. Were he to become Elan's friend and patron, would it make the final battle against Xykon anticlimactic? I rather think so; thus, if Tarquin redeems himself and turns good, I reckon it wouldn't be for long.

Standard disclaimer: I'm not saying it can't be done, or that Rich is required to do thus-and-so. He often does things I don't predict, but which make perfect sense. This is my opinion only.

That's your biggest objection to this?

[Piedmon_Sama]

I believe everyone can be redeemed, OP.

[tulebast]

How Book 5 should end:

:nale: Gosh, Dad, thanks so much for conquering the world with me. Our legacy will live on forever now.
:tarquin: Shut up, son.

I have been deliberately not mentioning this ever since Nale died for fear that Rich wouldn't do it (well, that scene with different dialog, anyway). It would be a great ending, IMHO.

[Jay R]

Well, maybe. But for Tarquin to be redeemed, it would need to be a pretty big deal.

Maybe Malack returns to Tarquin in a vision, dragging the chain he forged in unlife, and tells Tarquin to expect three visitors, and then Tarquin is visited in a single night by three ghosts, who show him his past, his present and his future, then maybe, maybe Tarquin could wake up, and hire a boy to buy a turkey as big as himself and send it to Kilkil's house. He would then save Julio's ship, which was about to fall off of Mt. Crumpet, and pick it up with the strength of ten Tarquins, plus two. He would sail it back to the empire with all the presents, using his big red glowing nose to guide it on its way, defeating the Winter Wizard and the Abominable Snow Monster, and when he heard a bell ring, an angel would get his wings, while a little drummer boy played parum-pa-pum-pum. Then he would set lots of traps for Enor and Gannji while he was home alone, and give Elan an official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle.

Of course, the boy, who has worked for Tarquin before, would ruthlessly crush dozens of turkey eggs beneath his steel boot and then publicly disembowel the turkeys that laid them as a warning to others.

[Fish]

That's your biggest objection to this?
Yes. Yes, it is.

I find it incredibly presumptuous that people are willing to say "in the upcoming panels, this plot point CANNOT happen because..."

Do I personally think Tarquin is redeemable, or in the words of the title, can he? Yes, he can, if he had the time and motivation. I will not put it past the writing skills of Rich to put Tarquin on that path. It would be arrogant to say it categorically could never happen.

That's a different question than whether I think a complete redemption is likely to happen — also a question of can he? I don't, for reasons I have given, but there again I admit I could be wrong. Tarquin has much power; what role would he fill as Elan's ally that would preserve tension? Unclear.

[ShinyRocks]

Hmmm. I wrote this about Miko in a thread that had got locked by the time I clicked post, but I thought I'd save it in case redemption came up again. Sorry to drag her in, but I think it's on-topic.


I guess it just goes to show that you can't please everyone. I, for one, would have been hugely disappointed if Miko had been redeemed. The 'redemption arc' is hard to pull off, and only works comparatively rarely. It requires acknowledging that you were wrong - you can't be redeemed if you don't even realise that you need redemption. And nothing we saw of Miko suggested she would ever see that. She was so convinced of her own moral rectitude that she couldn't comprehend the idea of any approach that conflicted with hers being valid.

Also? Redemption is hard. V went practically catatonic when she realised the impact of Familicide. Her redemption for that is taking hundreds of strips. It involves her not only realising that her *actions* were wrong, but that her whole Disintegrate first, ask questions later approach to life was wrong. That there are other approaches. You can even see it in how her relationship with Blackwing has changed.

Now, personally, I think V's character progression is some of the best work in the whole comic. But for Miko to be redeemed would require at least as much introspection and soul-searching as V has had. And, on a purely practical level, who's got that many panels to spare for a secondary character? Especially one whose purpose (if I may presume to speak for Rich) was to show that no, not everybody can be redeemed? If Miko had just got to say a few words of 'I was so wrong! I realise that now. I hope you can all forgive me' and then just pop off to the Lawful Good afterlife, I'd have been really disappointed and thought it was cheap. But that's all she could get - Miko's redemption would require an entire spin-off comic. That she died unredeemed was right and proper, and, perhaps most importantly, entirely in keeping with her character.

I kind of see it a bit like resurrection. Whenever anybody dies in this comic, people leap to say that they'll be back. And yet how often do we actually see resurrection take place? Roy came back, but that took scores of strips (for us) and a huge amount of work and hardship (for the OotS). It's something that's possible, but it's not just a matter of clicking your fingers.

I mostly read OotS for plot/character reasons rather than moral lessons, so to speak, but if I take anything from it, it's that life isn't cheap, redemption isn't easy, and self-awareness and a willingness to change oneself are pretty damn vital. Those are all things I'm happy to subscribe to.

I kind of feel the same about Tarquin. It would never be impossible, but for somebody as sickeningly Evil as Tarquin, I can't imagine what it would take for him to ever be more than Evil Person Trying To Do Better rather than Actually Redeemed.

He shows absolutely zero sign of wanting to change, or considering himself to be anything other than right. The fact that he places this on some external capital-s Story requirement does nothing to change the fact that he won't, or even can't, accept any deviation from his plans for himself (and by extension for a whole lot of other people).

Properly investigating what it would take to redeem Tarquin would require a thousand strips in itself. Even if he makes it out of here (and I still see it ending quite soon with him realising he's a B-plot at best, then dying), even if he helps the OotS stop Xykon, he'll still just be evil dude who's being a bit less evil for a little while. Not even close to redeemed.

[Snails]

With respect to V, s/he quickly took several leaps forward towards a reasonable perspective on redemption once the key cards were on the table. V seems to be going in the right direction. There is a long path ahead.

With respect to Miko, at least she seemed to openly acknowledged that the gods were competent moral authority. Therefore redemption was quite possible, even if it would take entire book to handle properly.

With respect to Tarquin, he does not seem to acknowledge the existence of such a thing as moral authority. Nor does him seem introspective in a manner that is conducive to moral epiphanies. At this point in time, it seems that redemption of a duke of hell is more likely than redemption of Tarquin. It is theoretically possible, and it could be an interesting trip, but until he takes even one step in the right direction, he is nowhere and getting nowhere any time soon.

[Ridureyu]

Soon's ghost pointed out to Miko that a major thing she lacked was the ability to admit that she had been wrong, and repent. Yes, she recognized the authority of the twelve gods, but remained content to decide for herself what they wanted based on her own preconceived notions, and ignore any and all evidence to the contrary. All the way to the end, her argument was, "Well, I did what was right, didn't I?" when she had not.

[FatJose]

Well, maybe. But for Tarquin to be redeemed, it would need to be a pretty big deal.

Maybe Malack returns to Tarquin in a vision, dragging the chain he forged in unlife, and tells Tarquin to expect three visitors, and then Tarquin is visited in a single night by three ghosts, who show him his past, his present and his future, then maybe, maybe Tarquin could wake up, and hire a boy to buy a turkey as big as himself and send it to Kilkil's house. He would then save Julio's ship, which was about to fall off of Mt. Crumpet, and pick it up with the strength of ten Tarquins, plus two. He would sail it back to the empire with all the presents, using his big red glowing nose to guide it on its way, defeating the Winter Wizard and the Abominable Snow Monster, and when he heard a bell ring, an angel would get his wings, while a little drummer boy played parum-pa-pum-pum. Then he would set lots of traps for Enor and Gannji while he was home alone, and give Elan an official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle.

Of course, the boy, who has worked for Tarquin before, would ruthlessly crush dozens of turkey eggs beneath his steel boot and then publicly disembowel the turkeys that laid them as a warning to others.

I wish that was one of the pdf stories.

[Jay R]

I wish that was one of the pdf stories.

Note to The Giant: I'd buy this book.

He brought everything back, and the food that we crave,
And he, HE HIMSELF - Tarquin carved the roast slave.


"And that's what D&D is all about, Charlie Brown."

[Sir_Leorik]

Yes. Yes, it is.

I find it incredibly presumptuous that people are willing to say "in the upcoming panels, this plot point CANNOT happen because..."

Do I personally think Tarquin is redeemable, or in the words of the title, can he? Yes, he can, if he had the time and motivation. I will not put it past the writing skills of Rich to put Tarquin on that path. It would be arrogant to say it categorically could never happen.

That's a different question than whether I think a complete redemption is likely to happen — also a question of can he? I don't, for reasons I have given, but there again I admit I could be wrong. Tarquin has much power; what role would he fill as Elan's ally that would preserve tension? Unclear.

While I would not presume to say what The Giant will or will not decide to happen in his comic, I've been reading this comic for quite a few years, and I've read more than a few of Rich's author commentaries and the posts in the Index, and I get the impression that he wouldn't be interested in pursuing a storyline where Tarquin is redeemed. One where V, Redcloak or Sabine is redeemed? Possibly, but Tarquin? What benefit would that have to the overall narrative he's been telling? Elan has already come to terms with the fact that his father is an Evil man who will never change. That character growth would be jeopardized by Tarquin having an epiphany and repenting.

[BlackDragonKing]

While I would not presume to say what The Giant will or will not decide to happen in his comic, I've been reading this comic for quite a few years, and I've read more than a few of Rich's author commentaries and the posts in the Index, and I get the impression that he wouldn't be interested in pursuing a storyline where Tarquin is redeemed. One where V, Redcloak or Sabine is redeemed? Possibly, but Tarquin? What benefit would that have to the overall narrative he's been telling? Elan has already come to terms with the fact that his father is an Evil man who will never change. That character growth would be jeopardized by Tarquin having an epiphany and repenting.

Even of those three you mentioned, only V can be redeemed.

Sabine's an outsider, meaning no, she doesn't have a choice in things like living things do; she's MADE OF EVIL the same way Devas are made of Good, and the fact that she loves Nale is not a redemptive factor in her being a manipulative hedonist who kills for fun. Just as Tarquin shows that there really isn't a chance to redeem remorseless sadistic killers, the entire Linear Guild demonstrates that just as strongly. The only reason some people think any better of Nale or his buddies than they do of Tarquin or Malack is that we've known the Linear Guild longer.

Redcloak had a choice to stop doing this a long time ago, and was even emotionally ready to take that choice at one point in SoD if Xykon hadn't chosen the worst possible moment to return, but he's gone so far down this path at this point he doesn't dare turn back or admit it's not worth what he's had to do to get there. It'd rather subvert what I assumed Rich was trying to point out that claiming good intentions while doing evil things still makes you evil if Redcloak is able to finally buck his fallacies and be non-evil.

V being redeemed is a different story, however; starting with the incident with the dragon, it's a redemption arc from a neutral perspective that is led into evil behavior both by character flaws already present and from some of the biases many adventurers take for granted. V comprehends the magnitude of her wrongdoing, confronts her character flaws, and is making her way, at her own pace, from a very dark shade of Neutral towards someone that appears to me to be starting to understand what it means to be truly GOOD like the people that she has joined this quest with. V got into adventuring for the wrong reasons and failed a test of character, but it means something good if at the end of it V has become a good person and can work to undo or atone for the harm that was caused before the journey started.

[Guancyto]

Point of order, Outsiders can change their alignments (there are Fallen Angels for a reason). Sabine is pretty unlikely to have that in store for her character arc, though.

I can definitely see Sabine ceasing to be an antagonist and helping out the Order at some point, maybe even extensively. In a lesser work that would end up redeeming her, but Giant has said outright in the story that redemption in the OotS-verse is hard. Add this to the fact that it's even harder for [Alignment] Outsiders due to being made of [Alignment] and that Sabine is pretty unlikely to help the main characters for Good reasons and it almost definitely isn't going to happen.

Redcloak... definitely capable of it, definitely not going to happen because it wouldn't be an interesting story. Redcloak as a character is aaaaall about a completely reasonable Evil villain (as a foil to Xykon's completely unreasonable Evil villain). All of his character development and everything that makes Redcloak awesome gets cut off at the knees if he ever decides to bat for the other team (the Good guys, that is).

V is definitely trying as we speak. Might make it, might not. It's a good point of tension for hir. At this point, the redemption arc in OotS exclusively belongs to Vaarsuvius.

Tarquin... can he? Absolutely. Will he? ahahahahahahahahhehahaha no. No more than Xykon will.

[carrion pigeons]

Tarquin's defining characteristics are his obsession with story structure and his alignment. Any attempt to redeem him would have to put those two things in conflict, so that he'd be forced to choose between two things he plausibly cares about.

So, how could you get Tarquin to realize that his alignment is damaging his ability to make the story about himself? I'm not sure there's a good way. The plot currently seems to be running towards forcing the realization on him that he can't make the story about himself. And of course, we know that the story isn't going to be about him, so his goals in that regard are ultimately futile regardless.

Therefore any attempt to get him to feel conflicted in his goals is going to necessarily involve him either being completely fooled, or else rejecting the premise of OOTS as a story and extricating himself from it. Since the former can't involve redemption, we could look at the latter.

Maybe set up a scenario where he either has to either become subservient to some greater antagonist (thus damaging his story as he views it), or else perform a selfless act (like a suicidal charge or something). It'd be really hard to set it up as being anything but selfish spite, but Elan would certainly be there to help define it as positively as possible, and maybe at the last minute Tarquin could be convinced that there's some possibility of changing.

That's as far as I can see it going, though. There isn't really a route to redemption that is both in character for him and doesn't involve the story going through some major contortions for no obvious reason.

[Reathin]

Technically possible. Not even remotely likely. If he ever did start toward being good, he'd have to stop seeing people as pieces in his game and actors in a story. The most likely path that comes to mind is that he does something similar to Belkar, but with more Genre Savey: he realizes his current situation isn't going to end well, and decides to cut his losses and engage in a redemption arc. At first it's all a sham, of course, but sometimes people become the masks they wear.

Again though, not very likely. Elan himself realizes that for all his fantasies about having a happy and whole family, it's not something that's really in the cards. When he admitted in the illusion that his parents broke up for very solid reasons, that was a huge step forward for him.

And from a more meta-perspective, as Soon commented, redemption is rare and precious, not for everyone. The only people I expect to be redeemed by the end of the story are Varsuivius and maybe Redcloak (although given that Redcloak's goal is goblin EQUALITY, not dominance, at least as of a Start of Darkness, it's only his means that need tweaking). I'm still not sure on Belkar, one way or another. At best he might become chaotic neutral, maybe hang out on that plane of endless war for an afterlife.

[BlackDragonKing]

Technically possible. Not even remotely likely. If he ever did start toward being good, he'd have to stop seeing people as pieces in his game and actors in a story. The most likely path that comes to mind is that he does something similar to Belkar, but with more Genre Savey: he realizes his current situation isn't going to end well, and decides to cut his losses and engage in a redemption arc. At first it's all a sham, of course, but sometimes people become the masks they wear.

Again though, not very likely. Elan himself realizes that for all his fantasies about having a happy and whole family, it's not something that's really in the cards. When he admitted in the illusion that his parents broke up for very solid reasons, that was a huge step forward for him.

And from a more meta-perspective, as Soon commented, redemption is rare and precious, not for everyone. The only people I expect to be redeemed by the end of the story are Varsuivius and maybe Redcloak (although given that Redcloak's goal is goblin EQUALITY, not dominance, at least as of a Start of Darkness, it's only his means that need tweaking). I'm still not sure on Belkar, one way or another. At best he might become chaotic neutral, maybe hang out on that plane of endless war for an afterlife.

I believe Redcloak's goal WAS Goblin Equality, when he was an idealistic but angry teenager being given a vision by his god.

The Dark One has clearly come to care more about Goblin Dominance with time, and more troublingly both he and Redcloak seem to be more bent on revenge on the rest of the world at this point than fixing the problem. Right-Eye was interested in building a place for goblins to live in peace and learn to coexist with other species, but Redcloak's taken the approach of conquest while he's waiting to transfer supreme power to his deity; he doesn't care that if he fails Gobbtopia will likely be attacked by humans in response to the destruction of Azure City one day, because his actions paying off negates all the consequences. He doesn't care if the Dark One goes mad with power when this is all done and forgets his original goals; Redcloak can't afford to think like that anymore, not after everything he's done.

[Evandar]

I dunno, in real life I like to think that everyone is redeemable. Absolutely everyone.

Realistically I don't think Tarquin is going to redeem himself. The question was 'Can he?' to which I'd reply 'Of course he could, but is it likely? Not really.'

[Eugenitor]

Redeem himself? No.

However, it is possible- though unlikely- that in the next strip he'll realize "Now wait a minute here! I'm being foiled at the last minute over and over again, and now I'm hanging off a rail! The narrative structure of this is--! Laurin, hopefully you have enough for one more Wormhole, because we are going home NOW."

[MtlGuy]

Can he? Perhaps. Will he? No. His list of evil deeds is extensive. Murdering one of his children in cold blood is perhaps too far down the dark path (even though Nale was Lawful Evil and proud of it).He has to want to change and he doesn't. Could that change? I doubt it.

[Domino Quartz]

Can he? Perhaps. Will he? No. His list of evil deeds is extensive. Murdering one of his children in cold blood is perhaps too far down the dark path (even though Nale was Lawful Evil and proud of it).He has to want to change and he doesn't. Could that change? I doubt it.

I would argue that he was already too far down the dark path before any of this happened. And while I believe that, theoretically, anybody can be redeemed (for example, I believe that Miko could have been redeemed eventually if she had stayed alive longer), it simply isn't going to happen with Tarquin. He doesn't see that anything he does is wrong in any way, and is even baffled that anybody would care about the atrocities he commits on a daily basis. Coming to point where he even sees that what he does is wrong would most likely take longer than the years remaining in his lifetime.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Tarquin could redeem himself by killing all the mammals and then killing himself and thus allowing us herpetofauna to take our deserved place in the world without uppity mammalian scum taking up all the pagespace.

But he's not likely to do that; given that he's trying to take over the one herpetofauna nation (reptilia), so no. No redemption.

By this same logic, Elan, Durkon, O-Chul, Thog, Roy, Halley, V, are all spotlight-stealing mammalian scum who need to die so Rich can focus on the story that he shoudl be telling about non-mammalian life.

WHERE'S MY TRAGIC SLIME MOLD STORIES, RICH? WHERE'S MY CNIDARIAN COMEDIES AND MY GINKOPHYTA SAGA. WHERE'S MY DIATOM DIALOGUES AND KORARCHAEOTA KOMICS.

[TriForce]

tarq simply isnt important enough to the story to be redeemed, dispite his own views and opinions about it

[Ward.]

I know Giant has his bases covered, but while we're waiting for the new strip all I can do is baselessly speculate.

Just as Miko was used as an example of a Lawful Good antagonist, I feel like Tarquin (a similarly polarizing character, if this forum is any indication) may be capable of change of heart, assuming he survives into the next book.

If he re-evaluates what kind of story he's in, he may realize the (narrative) error of his ways. Just as Miko's role was to sabotage Soon's killing stroke, it might be a nice touch to have an arc villain turn into the hero's cavalry - and realizing the conventions of the story, Tarquin would know he is heading to his death but go anyway for the sake of his son.

Once again, Giant has a plan, and it probably involves something more creative and fleshed out than this, but I felt it was an interesting thought.

Tarquin is easilly my favourite character and I genuinly hope he never undergoes any of this "redemption" crap.
On that note, I was someone who felt bad when miko died.

[Evandar]

I felt bad when Miko died!

I feel bad when anyone dies.

I bought Assassin's Creed: Black Flag and Dishonored and feel awful every time I stab anything.

[Mike Havran]

:xykon: Redemption arcs are for sissies who are too wimpy to embrace their black soul.

[chibibar]

Can Tarquin be redeem? Sure!

Will he want to? or even come close of doing it? Not likely.

Why? His ego. In this realm, death is never "permanent" per se. There is always True Resurrection ;) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm

So, Tarquin is willing to destroy everything that Elan will hold dear and will not kill Elan (or maybe he would but resurrect him back).

A huge ego has always been a major downfall to many people. A person CAN change of heart, but we would need some significant event that is willing to start that change. Tarquin killed Nale in cold blood and hardly blinked. In Tarquin's case, blood is not thicker than bonds. Ego is thicker.

[multilis]

People can be redeemed in very short time or reverse can happen, life changing moments... not common but possible.

By redeem I don't mean mean fix all the wrongs, that may never be possible or take long time, but means flip to actively trying to be good. (Or in reverse could be a good person flipping to angry/insane revenge evil monster)

It can be a eurika moment, eg if Belkar seeing others in gladitorial combat as relationship like him and cat was bigger impact moment... we already early in comic had Belkar with "owl's wisdom" being a different person. Les Miserables has a little longer one where the hero is sinking into evil then flips because of an act of kindness and a saying "you must give more than you take".

It can also be a "brain damage" induced flip, eg movies like Regarding Henry, Total Recall where the new good version later discovers his old evil version and utterly rejects it.

While it is unlikely it is possible that T could flip to being a different person. For one example seeds are already planted to a degree "Half your problem is you think world revolves around you", in a short time T could be hit by a sledgehammer of seeing his own unimportance and drastically change as a result. (Eg finds that some minor person who does small act of kindness is more important to his party members than him... they leave him behind to save that "minor" person)