Starcraft 2: Day 9 has the HotS for Kerrigan [Archive]

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-06, 10:18 AM

StarCraft 2 is a real time strategy game by Blizzard that was released on July 27th, 2010. This thread is for general discussion with no real focus within the game.

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Past Threads:
One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142825)
Two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158508)
Three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165601)
Four (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176154)
Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189933)
Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11112895)
Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214818)
Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232006)

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3) upload it to a file share site. http://www.sc2replayed.com/ is good, as is www.sc2rep.com , and so is others.
4) post link here.

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1) click on link
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Artanis

2013-12-06, 01:54 PM

I think this is the first time one of my ideas made it into a thread title :smallbiggrin:

Silverraptor

2013-12-07, 12:22 AM

You should probably put a link in the previous thread for this thread. Just to let everyone know its up.

Mutant Sheep

2013-12-07, 03:02 AM

Gandariel

2013-12-07, 05:45 AM

I'm pretty rusty myself (formerly Plat, right now probably Gold).
My main race is Toss, but i can play all three races to a degree.

Shoot me a PM and i'll be happy to play with any of you whenever you want :)

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-07, 11:04 AM

Watching Husky's casts... I find myself rooting for Zerg > Protoss > Terran > Taeja, whenever games are played.

Artanis

2013-12-07, 11:20 AM

Watching Husky's casts... I find myself rooting for Zerg > Protoss > Terran > Taeja, whenever games are played.
Just keep in mind that any major tournament will involve a Zerg losing the grand finals.

It's like Husky said, "It's not all about winning. It's about coming in second every time if your name is Jaedong." :smallwink:

Karoht

2013-12-09, 06:17 PM

Just keep in mind that any major tournament will involve a Zerg losing the grand finals.
It's like Husky said, "It's not all about winning. It's about coming in second every time if your name is Jaedong." :smallwink:
MLG for the first two seasons was nearly all Zerg all the time. Protoss were usually out before semi-finals, Terrans were usually out before finals, with the odd outliers like Naniwa and MarineKingPrime.

I find ZvZ battles to be kinda bland to watch, TvT to be slightly less bland, and PvP to be much more interesting if only for the pretty light show (and because Protoss are badass space jedi). Mixed fights are always the most interesting matchups for me.

ShadowFireLance

2013-12-09, 06:21 PM

Subbed.

Tiamat, Stupid 4v4s are either a curbstomp or a full out endless war.

Gandariel

2013-12-09, 06:52 PM

As i said in the other thread, people tend to root for Zerg simply because the first 8 or so minutes (excluding early rushes, which aren't really common) are about the zerg player getting 3 bases up, droning up and getting some creepspread while building as few units as possible to stay alive, while the other race is forced to attack them. Zerg is the best at expanding, if a Protoss tried to expand as fast as a zerg he would just die to 20 lings, or at least lose the expo in a second.

So yeah, all you see is Zerg getting attacked and trying to defend until the midgame, where the game is more equilibrated

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-09, 11:53 PM

I still root for them, because they always seem to be losing.

Karoht

2013-12-10, 12:49 AM

I still root for them, because they always seem to be losing.
They do often seem to be losing, right until they steamroll and win. Even if it doesn't look like it, they're usually ahead in some difficult to perceive manner.
"That's my secret Captain. I'm always secretly winning."

And as far as Barcraft is concerned, I think we have the most fun when ZvX.
I mean, when Banelings enter play, there is nothing quite like watching an entire bar chanting...
"Feed it to em! Feed it to em! Feed it to em! Feed it to em!"
...and then either screaming like mad when that acid burn sound effect goes off, or wincing in sympathetic caustic agony.

Of course, when Protoss get their deathball going, you get the entire bar singing:
"Op, Op Op Op, Oh Pee Protoss Ball" and doing the Gangnam Style dance. Look up the song by Viva La Dirt League

alexis66

2013-12-10, 05:33 AM

I like your good work.

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-10, 09:35 AM

They do often seem to be losing, right until they steamroll and win. Even if it doesn't look like it, they're usually ahead in some difficult to perceive manner.
"That's my secret Captain. I'm always secretly winning."

And as far as Barcraft is concerned, I think we have the most fun when ZvX.
I mean, when Banelings enter play, there is nothing quite like watching an entire bar chanting...
"Feed it to em! Feed it to em! Feed it to em! Feed it to em!"
...and then either screaming like mad when that acid burn sound effect goes off, or wincing in sympathetic caustic agony.

Of course, when Protoss get their deathball going, you get the entire bar singing:
"Op, Op Op Op, Oh Pee Protoss Ball" and doing the Gangnam Style dance. Look up the song by Viva La Dirt League

No, I mean, they actually usually lose the matches. They don't seem like they're losing; that's just what winds up happening to them. Maybe my perception of this is skewed somehow, I don't know.

Kyeudo

2013-12-10, 10:38 AM

Zerg are the most divergent of the three races. Both Toss and Terran have the same sort of supply issues, the same sort of production structures. They have different units, different tricks they can pull, but they still are playing by the same rules.

Zerg, however, have larva and that changes the game. Zerg can bank production cycles for the future by stockpiling larva, they never have a problem with queueing, and they have to build workers with the same production cycles they build soldiers with. They also need only one production structure to produce new unit types from all existing production structures.

Zerg's larva mechanic produces vulnerabilities and strengths that are more pronounced than other races by a lot. Early pressure on a toss or terran can only make him lose workers if he runs out of minerals to keep queueing a worker. Early pressure on a Zerg is going to force him to cut workers for defense. Late game, Zerg can switch army compositions as fast as they lose armies as long as they have enough resources and larva stockpiled, while Terran and Protoss are stuck with what buildings they have - Ground Toss cannot instantly go sky by building a Stargate and flooding Void Rays.

Thiyr

2013-12-10, 01:58 PM

I'd say that toss has a slight divergence from Terran. While the core rules are the same for the most part, warp gates throw a notable enough issue into that, imo. You can't stockpile warpins like you can larvae, but you also can't queue up anything, and it has to be an active use of time. But it comes with the upside of your units being anywhere you have power. Certainly a notable shift, though its for a more limited subset of units. It does throw me off considerably when I try to play terran and keep hitting W expecting it to do something.

Also, while i doubt it was what you were talking about, i started considering how each race gets its supply, which got me thinking of how buildings are made...and how bad terran throws me off. If I forget to make a supply building and get capped as toss or zerg, I can at least throw down 3 supply thinggies and be good for a while, giving me time to keep up with it. But...so many wasted SCVs sitting there building, esp if production ramps up. always leaves me feeling either under-supplied or under-workered.

In regards to zerg vulnerabilities, I'd think that's why mass queen defenses were popular for a while. Queens are stupid dense and don't take larve, and have transfuse if needed, or creep tumors if not. And the benefits of fast tech-swaps only matter if you remember to get the tech. For every late game I lose because that giant flock of mutas suddenly turns into 8 ultras backed with lings or hydras or...just about anything, I get a win where the roach hydra ball dies to colossi, storms, archons, and/or something else, only to get immediately replaced with...the exact same thing.

That said, when watching tourneys, I generally can't root for zerg. I've been on the receiving end of a creep covered map while I'm on 2 base enough times by now. I cheer for toss mostly 'cause of home-team pride.

Though I was so sad to watch scarlett lose to sOs at redbull NY.

deuterio12

2013-12-10, 02:41 PM

Zerg are the most divergent of the three races. Both Toss and Terran have the same sort of supply issues, the same sort of production structures. They have different units, different tricks they can pull, but they still are playing by the same rules.

No, they really aren't:
-Protoss can speed up production and tech with chrono boosts, Terran can't.
-Terran can get more supply instantly and for free with supply drops (not efficient yes, but even pros get capped now and then, and in those cases supply drop is a life safer). Zerg and Protoss cannot.
-A single probe can take care of all your building construction needs. Both terran and zerg need to invest multiple workers to make multiple buildings
-Protoss production stops dead if you destroy nearby pylons. Terran and Zerg production keeps working just fine as long as the building itself is still up.
-As already mentioned, Warp gates are a completely diferent world than queing up stuff like zerg and terran do.

Zerg's larva mechanic produces vulnerabilities and strengths that are more pronounced than other races by a lot. Early pressure on a toss or terran can only make him lose workers if he runs out of minerals to keep queueing a worker. Early pressure on a Zerg is going to force him to cut workers for defense.

And early pressure on a protoss means they need to spend chrono boosts to get out troops faster rather than probes faster. Terrans meanwhile can be punished for spending all their energy on MULEs by fast-teching some cloaked units.

Late game, Zerg can switch army compositions as fast as they lose armies as long as they have enough resources and larva stockpiled, while Terran and Protoss are stuck with what buildings they have - Ground Toss cannot instantly go sky by building a Stargate and flooding Void Rays.

No, but Ground Toss can chrono boost that single stargate to get void rays faster than either Terran or Protoss can get combat air units in the field.:smallwink:

EDIT: Or my latest favorite tactic, finish a Dark Shrine and drop half a dozen dark templars inside the enemy base on the next second (yay warpprisms!)

Thiyr

2013-12-10, 03:20 PM

No, they really aren't:
-Protoss can speed up production and tech with chrono boosts, Terran can't.
-Terran can get more supply instantly and for free with supply drops (not efficient yes, but even pros get capped now and then, and in those cases supply drop is a life safer). Zerg and Protoss cannot.
-A single probe can take care of all your building construction needs. Both terran and zerg need to invest multiple workers to make multiple buildings
-Protoss production stops dead if you destroy nearby pylons. Terran and Zerg production keeps working just fine as long as the building itself is still up.
-As already mentioned, Warp gates are a completely diferent world than queing up stuff like zerg and terran do.

And early pressure on a protoss means they need to spend chrono boosts to get out troops faster rather than probes faster. Terrans meanwhile can be punished for spending all their energy on MULEs by fast-teching some cloaked units.

No, but Ground Toss can chrono boost that single stargate to get void rays faster than either Terran or Protoss can get combat air units in the field.:smallwink:

EDIT: Or my latest favorite tactic, finish a Dark Shrine and drop half a dozen dark templars inside the enemy base on the next second (yay warpprisms!)

The thing is that at their core, chrono doesn't change how toss comes at actually making dudes. Ignoring warpgate for a second, making zealots and making marines are equally easy. Chrono speeds it up, yes, but that's not a change to how it works. Reactors let you double up on marines, but it still doesn't change how it works. push button -> dude added to queue -> dude pops out 20-120 seconds later. larvae are very different from that. You can't queue up units as zerg, becuase by definition there is no queue. The closest analogue is waiting for larvae to pop, but you can stock up on them even if you can't make units. And once your army dies, you can almost immediately remax due to that. Miles apart from "traditional" production, which is what terrans get. Warpgate is another departure, being cooldown based rather than delay-based, and being active, rather than passive, but that isn't the entirety of toss production, so while a major aspect of play, it certainly isn't the only part, esp because its hard for toss to succeed in the long run without some kind of robo or stargate in there.

Building structures differently makes something of a difference, as i mentioned in my above post, but its still leading to (overall) a lot of the same core problems. It only consumes the resources of the building and, for terran, some mining time. zerg's problem is that every building, supply,worker, and (non-queen) unit come from the same ultimate source: the larva. Every spine was a drone was a larva. Every roach was a larva. Every ovie was a larva. If I, say, cannon harass a zerg's natural, and they build 3 spines and a bunch of lings but push it off before i can kill the expo or too many workers, they're still super behind if i was making workers on the back of it. I may have been slowed down if i wasn't chronoing out workers, but production never _halted_. Zerg, on the other hand, WILL be halted so long as their larva are making other things. If they're idle aside from injects they're able to catch up, but larvae are a very real additional resource to manage that makes or breaks the race. I forget my chrono for about half the game and still manage to do fairly well for myself.

edit: Also, friendly tip, half a dozen DTs is generally overkill outside of specific situations. Paraphrased from dayJ, "1 or 2 DTs is going 'okay, lets see if they have detection and do some harass'. 3 is 'I hope they don't have detection.' 4+ is 'PLEAAAAAASE DON'T HAVE DETECTION!'". Its a huge investment that gets screwed up by one bad scan or some turrets/obs/cannons/overseers. One can rack up respectable kills and at worse you're out 125/125.

(says the guy who built 6 DTs to finish off a planetary fortress before an army arrived an hour ago. >_>)

Kyeudo

2013-12-10, 05:18 PM

Karoht

2013-12-10, 05:18 PM

No, I mean, they actually usually lose the matches. They don't seem like they're losing; that's just what winds up happening to them. Maybe my perception of this is skewed somehow, I don't know.Perception is probably skewed. Could be due to sample size (not sure how closely you follow competative play or if you are talking about actual play experiences), could be anecdotal.
Zerg were the top represented race in league play through Wings of Liberty (top 50% were Zerg, with the other 50% being shared among Terran and Protoss). As far as it currently stands, I'm pretty sure Zerg are still the top represented race in the competative scene right now, though the percentages are a lot closer together. Again, this is the competative scene (MLG, NASL, WCS, Dreamhack, GSL, etc) and has nothing to do with current or past ladders (Diamond, Gold, Silver, etc), or their representation.

deuterio12

2013-12-10, 06:48 PM

I prefer DT overload. Half a dozen DTs can perfectly rush down a cannon/orbital command/spore crawler before your opponent notices what's happening. Worst scenario you can spread them out over your enemy bases to force him to chase them around.

I didn't say that Protoss and Terran were entirely alike, but even warp-in still works largely on the same scheme as a Barracks - you get one unit per length of time per building. I've had twenty units building off the same hatchery before.

By that reasoning, I can also say that hatcheries work largely on the same scheme as a barracks - you order up units, wait some times and then they spawn fully formed next to the building in question. Both terran and zerg share a queue up limitation, one is fixed, the other based is the amount of larva you have-basically the same thing by your own standards.

Protoss meanwhile order units, get them in a few seconds in any position of the map where they have a pylon/warprprism regardless of distance, and then have to wait until they can do it again (shorter if they drop a bunch of chronoboosts). They're playing a completely diferent game.

Do protoss have non-warpgate production? They do. But your chances of winning whitout heavy warpgate usage are around the same as winning with queen spam.

Bottom point being, every race in SC is quite different besides the basic resource gathering minigame. That's what makes it a great game, despite "only" having 3 factions while fancier RTS have triple or more times that amount. Zerg have their larva and queens and creep, protoss have chronoboosts and warpgates and pylons, terrans have orbital commmands and add-ons and flying buildings, and a bunch of other diferences. A macro style that works for protoss simply doesn't work for terran and vice-versa, and neither fits zerg very well, because all three of them are diferent (altough if you purposedly focus in just one aspect, then yes they may look the same, if you ignore the remaining 90% aspects).

Karoht

2013-12-10, 09:04 PM

I prefer DT overload. Half a dozen DTs can perfectly rush down a cannon/orbital command/spore crawler before your opponent notices what's happening. Worst scenario you can spread them out over your enemy bases to force him to chase them around.Or you can stealth block them on a ramp.
Or you can just mix a DT or two in with your Zealots and have the opponent wonder why 8 zealots just up and ROFLSTOMPED the smack out of something they logically should not have been able to take down. Fantastic tactic VS Colossi and Ultralisks.

Protoss meanwhile order units, get them in a few seconds in any position of the map where they have a pylon/warprprism regardless of distance, and then have to wait until they can do it again (shorter if they drop a bunch of chronoboosts). They're playing a completely diferent game.Oh yeah, the other reason I greatly enjoy watching Protoss battle pretty much anyone. That fight for map control can be really engaging.

Kyeudo

2013-12-10, 10:51 PM

*snip*

You haven't really played Zerg much, have you?

Larva management is something that affects every stage of Zerg play, while warp-in tricks are reserved for early game and harassment.

Also, I've beaten Brood Lord swarms with Queen spam. You just need enough Hatcheries.

Gandariel

2013-12-11, 03:49 AM

I agree with Kyeudo on this one.
Yeah, Starcraft is so awesome because the races are SO different in so many ways, but in regards of production, Terran and Protoss are pretty much similar.

Chronoboost is not really a factor, it just means you have 1.5 buildings instead of one for a short time.

Protoss and Terran's ability to produce units is only dependant on the NUMBER of said buildings they have.
For EACH Gate/stargate/robo/barracks/factory/starport you have, you can produce 1 unit per period of time. (ok, 2 with reactors, let's not get picky).

Have 10 gates? cool, you can warp in 10 zealots, then in 30 or so seconds you can do it again.

Only have one gate? then you can only warp in ONE zealot.

While for zerg the number of units you can produce at a time is NOT limited by any means by the number of tech structures you have.

You only need 1 spire to make 40 mutas in one go (ask JaeDong if you want :P )
And really, you only need one hatch too.
If you wanted, you could stockpile larvae on one hatch for some time, then push 40 mutas off of 1 hatch.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, i'm saying this is completely different from Toss or Terran.

If a Toss and a Terran talked about a game, they could both say "The enemy went for air, and i didn't have enough stargates/starports to get enough of the right unit in time", but a zerg could not.

That is why the Muta switch is so dangerous, especially to Protoss. Toss can't just say "darn, i need some phoenix. Let's make 10 of them" and have 10 phoenix appear after 30 seconds. He has to build extra stargates and begin production, and wait several cycles before he has a reasonable enough amount of units to defend.

Thiyr

2013-12-11, 09:03 PM

I didn't say that Protoss and Terran were entirely alike, but even warp-in still works largely on the same scheme as a Barracks - you get one unit per length of time per building. I've had twenty units building off the same hatchery before.

Oh, I agree in that aspect. I apologize if it sounded like i was trying to put words in your mouth, I was agreeing with you for the most part. I just hold that warpgates are sufficient enough divergence that, were the whole of toss production like that, it would be sufficient to call it a wide divergence.

It makes a difference in terms of units with energy almost becoming spells of their own given the resources and WG cooldowns, and it makes active combat macro a good deal harder. Not impossible, but if you're trying to manage blink stalkers while warping in more guys, you need some really solid micro. That you can't automate by holding down a button, sadly (not trying to imply that, say, terran is "hold A to win", just that when trying to combat macro, that's an option). Its a basic macro skill that takes some amount of time to get down properly, though it was probably learned by a lot of older toss easier back when the game was 4gate 4lyfe.

And while you can cut out warpgate production at times, its not something i generally suggest unless you've got a LOT of other infrastructure and have a good read on your enemy. Warpgates are just too versatile to ignore 9 times out of ten, though.

(in short, where zerg differentiates in infrastructure, toss differentiates in execution, and terran differentiates in spamming marines I mean by being the most "standard" race. I agree that zerg is the widest differentiation, but I also contend that warpgate is a notable shift if you're not adjusted to it.)

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-12, 12:23 AM

I've gotten my bro to agree to download Starcraft II, on account of a few fun arcade games we found.

The wintermaul on Starcraft II is waaaaaay easier to play than the wintermaul on Warcraft III, though. You seem to be able to solo it without much difficulty!

Silverraptor

2013-12-12, 03:51 AM

So, I've been watching Day 9 starcraft again, and overall I pleased with how the meta seems to be now-a-days. I stopped playing because of the Brood Lord meta that I hated so much. I hated how necessary and ingrained it was into zerg play. I hated seeing people play against it and the way the zergs played with it. Its seemed just a bad outcome on either side with about the same amount of action as Goody playing in TvT. But now, there seems to be enough divergence (zerg no longer relying on Broodlords), Broken units seem to have been toned down (Hellbats), and new strategies (Skytoss).

So, I may get back into the swing of things again, I'll just have to relearn my mechanics and everything.

Gandariel

2013-12-12, 12:10 PM

I play Protoss, and i think ZvT nowadays is INCREDIBLY frustrating for both sides.
marine/mine/medivac vs ling/bane/muta is a prolonged 7-minute continuous skirmish where you MUST keep fighting and trading, knowing full well that one missed marine split can kill half your army, and that waiting for one more shot on your mutas can mean losing 5 of them to three marines.

It is REALLY entertaining to watch, but it must be SO hard to play.

BTW, if you haven't watched it yet, a freaking amazing ZvT, often considered one of the best SC2 games ever played (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwp1dZFwGak)

Kyeudo

2013-12-12, 12:43 PM

I play Protoss, and i think ZvT nowadays is INCREDIBLY frustrating for both sides.
marine/mine/medivac vs ling/bane/muta is a prolonged 7-minute continuous skirmish where you MUST keep fighting and trading, knowing full well that one missed marine split can kill half your army, and that waiting for one more shot on your mutas can mean losing 5 of them to three marines.

It is REALLY entertaining to watch, but it must be SO hard to play.

Mines and battle hellions have really made it so that Infestor/Zergling isn't a strong alternative to banelings anymore. I miss that style.

Artanis

2013-12-12, 02:01 PM

BTW, if you haven't watched it yet, a freaking amazing ZvT, often considered one of the best SC2 games ever played (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwp1dZFwGak)
Somehow, I already knew who the players would be even before I clicked the link :smallbiggrin:

Kyeudo

2013-12-12, 03:57 PM

Somehow, I already knew who the players would be even before I clicked the link :smallbiggrin:

It could have been MarineKingPrime instead of Bomber. :smalltongue:

Silverraptor

2013-12-12, 06:22 PM

BTW, if you haven't watched it yet, a freaking amazing ZvT, often considered one of the best SC2 games ever played (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwp1dZFwGak)

I remember watching Day 9 analyze that on a daily. It was nice to see the actual game though.

BobVosh

2013-12-12, 06:52 PM

Blah blah Starcraft is all HARD after not playing Ladder for a year.:smalltongue: Is the Saturday group play thing still a thing? Does it happen? I might show up tomorrow. ...probably not, but maybe!:smalltongue:

I'm in the same boat, just built a new pc after not having one for 11 months. I'm not looking forward to my first SC game.

It does amuse me to see the same people in this thread as there was last year though.

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-12, 09:29 PM

That was an interesting play by play deconstruction of the game by Day9. I thought it was pretty cool.

Gandariel

2013-12-13, 04:13 AM

I didn't really like that daily, I found it really subpar. The game was so good alone, stopping and analysing it is kind of the old "explaining a joke is like vivisecting a frog, you understand it better but it dies in the process".

Watching the game, though. That was amazing.
Like, SO amazing.

No idea why bomber didn't just put 5 missile turrets to defend the gold.
They would have all died without killing a single muta, but at least he would have had some time to get reinforcements / escape with workers.

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-13, 10:41 AM

I didn't quite understand why the two of them never attempted to snatch up any of the lower bases; they allowed themselves to run out of money producing units instead of seeking to claim the untapped bases. Perhaps they just figured they couldn't hold 'em?

Gandariel

2013-12-13, 02:25 PM

.. because the second Bomber would stop sending in Marines, Scarlett would have just swept in with the mutas, killing bases, workers, barracks.
Likewise for Scarlett.
Basically, the first one who would stop sending units would have immediately lost.

*maybe* Bomber could have tried to turtle, since Terran is so good at that. But still, even a circle of Turrets doesn't hold that well against muta's regen. (and if he moved his army to protect the new base, then again mutas in your main & natural)

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-14, 02:40 AM

He could have relocated his main base over to the bottom of the map, I guess. I don't really think that stopping the pressure and retreating his marines for a bit would have instantly lost a game.

Kyeudo

2013-12-14, 03:41 AM

He could have relocated his main base over to the bottom of the map, I guess. I don't really think that stopping the pressure and retreating his marines for a bit would have instantly lost a game.

I beg to differ. Scarlett was able to keep Bomber's 60+ marines running around like madmen with her 20ish mutas, dealing massive damage whenever Bomber let up on the pressure. Marines just couldn't defend his base well enough, Terran doesn't have anything like the Protoss phoenix, and turrets just wouldn't cut it at this stage of the game.

Likewise, the only thing that was buying Scarlett breathing room was her 20 mutas keeping Bomber defending his gold expo. If she had not landed two amazing, consecutive baneling landmines, she could not have fought Bomber's army head on and they both knew it.

Niether could spare the resources or the diversion of focus needed to establish another expo. They were alive only so long as the other needed to defend and both are smart enough to spot a paper tiger.

Gandariel

2013-12-14, 05:54 AM

the *first* landmine was a blessing, but i think Scarlett could have done it without the second one. She had lings, some banelings, 2 queens and some drones too. Plus the mutas.

Bomber had 30 marines and 2 medivacs.

How i picture the last fight if it weren't for the burrow:

Bomber engages scarlett's ground army. drones, lings, queen die only killing a few marines, banelings hit are a big deal, but with bomber's splitting he doesn't take much damage. Mutas though sweep in and kill the medivacs.

Remaining bomber marines, stimmed and with no recovery, get slowly picked off by mutas, which in turn don't die because of regen. GG

Somensjev

2013-12-20, 11:49 AM

any starcraft players online at the moment?

also, do i just put up my battlenet-name-thingy here?

Gandariel

2013-12-20, 01:28 PM

ah, too bad. I'm leaving now =(

Also yes, just type your bnet code and number :D

BTW. Just lost a cool game against a zerg.

I managed a SICK defense (40 army supply vs 100) but was ultimately massacred by 3/3 ultralisks :(

Somensjev

2013-12-20, 02:12 PM

DrizztFan24

2013-12-20, 11:45 PM

I just got HotS yesterday. I played my first matchmaking game today. I used to be high gold (2 years ago) as random. I figured I would give it a shot with the new unit balances and everything.

I got owned by a bronzie protoss. :smallfrown: My skills have slipped it seems. My zerg-fu is not as strong as it once was. Then I tried a TvT, which used to be my best match-up. I had exactly 1 loss with my qxc ghost opening. I tried it again. Little did I know that snipe has been smacked with a huge ban hammer. I guess that makes 2 losses.

If I am not on the list I can be added again. If anyone cares to mentor me a bit I would be much obliged. Need much help with meta and starter build orders.

LGND
926

Aotrs Commander

2013-12-21, 07:15 AM

Just poking my head in to say a) title is hilarious and b) ask if we have any clue - in broad terms - when Legacy of the Void is due out. (I am one of those terrible people who plays the single player campaign and that's it...)

Now, I know the answer is the typical Blizzard "when it's done" (which at least, usually it is!), but a rough order of magnitude, so I can start looking. I.e. are we expecting it next year? 2015? Later? (I gather that of November it "needs work" but I'm not sure what that equates to in terms of how far along they are.)

Gandariel

2013-12-21, 09:19 AM

@beating 160 marines.

Really depends on the skill level.
Marines are really really cost effective units, but they also have very definite counters.
A few colossi with some support can smash through marines without a sweat.
Or storms, which are my favourite option. Also, armor upgrades and Guardian Shield makes them do so little damage.

@ getting back in the game: heh, I too started playing again after quire a few months and the results are really underwhelming. I either lose or win but feel my opponent was so bad I don't even deserve to be happy, since he was so bad.
Still, I'm doing OK in gold (playing Toss).

I THINK I can perform at gold-ish level as Terrain and silverish at zerg, but I don't really know build orders, so I just sorta go towards a unit composition and try not to mess up my timings too much. I think I could do decently if I actually played a bit with the race and learned some timings and build orders, but for now I'm happy as a Toss. Can't beat that feel of using warp gates and storming down enemies. Also sky toss is a bit too strong right now IMO, I would be bothered to play against it xD

I'd be happy to play some games with you guys sometime. Not these days because I'm on holiday, but I'll post with availability when i can :)

@LotV : no idea. Probably around 2015 is my best guess.

thracian

2013-12-21, 11:00 AM

The wintermaul on Starcraft II is waaaaaay easier to play than the wintermaul on Warcraft III, though. You seem to be able to solo it without much difficulty!

Wintermaul was always pretty easy to solo, though. As long as you didn't pick certain "races", the increased gold income makes it mostly trivial past level 1-2.

Mutant Sheep

2013-12-22, 03:37 AM

I'm still a custom games guy, but I spent a good two weeks practicing my zerg against the AI. Got to hardest difficulty, moved onto unranked games, found them underwhelmingly easy. Now I'm a lvl 20 zerg, and ready to try ranked games.:smallbiggrin::smallamused:

(The account I've been using for its HotS had a Maxed out terran, but I have a decent enough mech to beat hard ai.)

I'd be happy to play against you guys, but since the HotS is my brother's account (and there's too many Nintendo games I've missed to get HotS for Christmas :smalltongue:), he's one more than I. But if I see someone in the gitp group, I'd be happy to play a game or two.:smallsmile:

I haven't had any serious issues with sky toss, but my regular Zerg is hydra/festor, so my complaints are all hellbats and collosus.:smallwink:

Tectonic Robot

2013-12-22, 03:38 AM

The recent Scarlett vs. sOs game Husky cast was really cool. It's rare you see Protoss go mass Phoenix against mass muta/corrupter. It's actually cool to see it play out.

Somensjev

2013-12-22, 03:40 AM

dont suppose anyone would be up for a game within the next few hours? i cant get any :smallsigh:

got one :smallamused:

Gandariel

2013-12-24, 04:33 AM

Haven't had the time to watch that game yet, but as Protoss, when your opponent goes muta phoenix is usually the best choice.

Blink stalkers deal with them decently, but stalkers slowly become a waste of supply.
Storms and archons are a great way of countering them , but storm isn't reliable and often ends up killing nothing as the mutas regen the damage.
Also, archons and HT are pretty slow, so mutas can keep you in your bases indefinitely while the zerg takes a million bases.

Stalkers and archins have the advantage of being built immediately, though.
If 10 mutas pop into your base, you can just warp in stalkers in an instant, while for phoenixes you need to build two stargates and begin producing two at a time, and you usually need like 6 before you can really defend.

So yeah, if you scout a spire in time you usually go phoenix. Requires some micro, but is extremely cost efficient, and you can use them to harass later.
After you do, the Zerg either goes Corruptor (then you have to get void rays) or Hydra (and you need colossus). So either scout or go for both :D

Gandariel

2013-12-24, 07:19 AM

That reminds me: one time I killed something like 6 phoenixes and 3 oracles with Feedback. It was AMAZING and incredibly satisfying to do :D

Silverraptor

2013-12-28, 03:33 AM

Watching Day 9 is making me want to try playing this again. Also alerted me to some changes. Pylons can't power up cliffs anymore. I now laugh at a majority of cannon rushers.

Gandariel

2013-12-28, 03:41 PM

anyone up now for games? :D

Gandariel

2013-12-29, 02:28 PM

Watching the ASUS RoG qualifier, i came across a really nice PvZ opening:

pylon and 13 gateway on the low ground.

Probe scout, use pylon block to delay hatch (cancel and build again if needed).

As soon as the gate finishes, chronoboost three zealots and send them in.
Hatch is denied, if you can send the zealots to block the ramp. Eventually the zerg gets one or two queens and more lings, and manages to drive you back.

Still, after those three zealots, you built a nexus (and then the usual stuff).

Basically, i watched this thing happen in a PvZ, and the Zerg only managed to start his natural at 5:40 (while the Toss' nexus was like 2/3 complete)

The three zealots were driven back by 8 lings and a queen (maybe 2), and just returned home.
BTW: the Zerg had gone 15pool => 15 hatch. If it was hatch first it would have been even worse.

What do you guys think? i'll try to use this thing when i can and tell you how it went

Karoht

2013-12-30, 10:55 AM

Due to a nostalgia twitch, I've been playing through the campaign from start to finish.
I started with old Starcraft + Broodwar (there is an excellent map program you can download from scmapster, has all 6 campaigns remade in SCII, quite faithfully), moved on to SCII WoL and HotS.
Old Starcraft + Broodwar-Plays like WoL/HotS on Hard difficulty. Also, the computer is way more blatant about cheating. Units will magically appear from time to time, in places they had no means of getting to even. I watched as literally 2 dozen Guardians spawned within sightline to my base. And by spawned I mean there was a teleport visual effect even.
WoL on Hard-Not as bad as I remembered, probably should have tried Brutal.
HotS on Brutal-Wow. Easier than I remembered. If you just use replay and have all your tech, it isn't all that noticeably harder than Hard. Timers are shorter for timed stuff, and the game won't warn you about anything. IE-Shuttles inbound to Warp Gates on that one mission, you probably won't even get map pings nevermind direction of travel like you do on lower difficulties.
I'm now down to the more micro intensive missions (Kerrigan + some minions), I think I have 3 left and I have Brutal complete.

Yeah, good times.

Gandariel

2014-01-02, 12:30 PM

Campaign is indeed pretty cool :D

I did like it myself, but i really only saw it as a cool thing you play once, maybe go back to it later to get the achievements and stuff, but ultimately not what i got the game for. The 1v1 ladder is what i'm most interested about.

But really, SC2 is an amazing game: you get the ladder, the Arcade, the Campaign, each offering dozens of hours of gameplay. Gotta love all three =)

Tectonic Robot

2014-01-02, 01:43 PM

Y'know, I think a lot of zergs would be happy if creep tumors could spot widow mines burrowed in creep... although some might argue that'd be imbalanced?

Gandariel

2014-01-07, 10:35 AM

I don't really think mines detection is the biggest concern for zerg at the moment.
They could get a buff in the form of the queen gaining some small extra anti air damage, to keep up with protoss air.

Anyways, I was thinking about PvP and I realized that it's the rock paper scissor matchup : Robo opening beats Twilight council opening (immortals kill blink, observer kills DT).
Stargate beats Robo (robo has no antiair)
Twilight beats Stargate (blink stalker rushes kill small numbers of void rays)

(We could also say that cannon rushes and proxy gates are Lizard and Spock :P )

Silverraptor

2014-01-07, 08:22 PM

Karoht

2014-01-08, 12:01 AM

So, I've watched some prop TvT games, which I don't get much of a chance to do, and I'm wondering, why do they not get a nuclear missile for when they are having a tank standoff? It should clear out the group because they have to move, or if they try to scan and get the ghost, they are in range of the tank range.

What do you guys think?
Nukes. So much silliness, a weapon where you literally throw resources mostly at some minor area denial, and occasionally damage things.
I prefer to break a Siege stalemate with Banshee's personally. Lest costly, more effective in the long run. Or just scatter your Ghosts out so one scan won't get all of them.
PST-Mixing a Ghost or two in with a pack of Marines/Marauders can be extremely lethal VS Zerg. The downside is that they won't keep up with your Marines when they Stim, the upside is that they don't really have to. And they'll keep you pretty safe from Banelings.

Cerlis

2014-01-08, 02:26 AM

So as a total newb is there a decent intermediate guide.

I'm not talking about intense macros i'll never be able to use. Or stuff like "you need to build buildings to make stuff.

I got the double click to select all units, putting stuff in ctrl groups, tabbing to switch between ability frames.

I think the biggest help would be like...intrium stuff you dont really "get" without sitting there for a long while comparing and contrasting dmg/range/resource management, ect

Like for instance I recently learned that Marauders have a good 125 hp, while before i thought they where basically just AoE marines who hit harder and die horribly to ranged units. Though i got zerg rushed in the end my last game utilizing bunkers for defense and using marauders 1 at least in each bunker really eviscerated their ground attacks.

Its like unique physics stuff like that i think i need. How many SCVs/drones should be active. When is it worth it to start expanding. How often are banelings worth it since you are turning , what ? 100 recourse into a kamikazee attack. Tips like THOSE. Stuff like what i THINK i found out...i'm not entirely sure. But i think i found out "Siege tank's range is alot further than you can actually see through fog of war, so you can set up tanks and then use a spotter to allow them to kill things." i was on the wrong end of that. I knew about spotting for the sake of attacking stuff ABOVE you, but I think that fight the other guy was probably amused that i wasnt attacking his stuff with my tanks when i had fliers and a satellite command center.

Things like Do those towers only provide visual and not stealth detection. Should i dedicate the first 3 or 4 builds from the airship factory to 2 vikings,a banshee and raven just for the sake of self defense? How quickly can a missle turrent take out an enemy flier and is there any point to building one by itself?

These are all things the people i'm fighting know but arent really spelled out in game. I've looked at the units listing on the website and that has answered a few questions. Though most of the help involves tactical strike teams and maneuvers and i have never been on offense except against computer opponents on easy. (and am at a frustrating area where i totally overpower Easy computers but need a bit more practice to not get overwhelmed by medium.

Somensjev

2014-01-08, 08:03 AM

snip

i find that making two supply depots (or whatever the race you're using has) then filling those up with workers (and if necessary some minor defences) seems to get some early game minerals, and you should have enough workers for a while, then just add some more if you feel that you don't get minerals fast enough

of course, people much more knowledgable than me will soon come along and give much better advice

Artanis

2014-01-08, 08:07 AM

Silverraptor

2014-01-08, 11:09 AM

Day 9 also has some excellent Newbie Tuesday videos that may help.:smallsmile:

Gandariel

2014-01-08, 06:40 PM

@ Nukes: I personally think Terrans should be using them, at least in lategame, but in TvT as a siege-breaker, not that much.
You spend a lot of resources for essentially nothing.

There are plenty of ways to break a siege line:
- unsiege your tanks, then drop marines between the enemy tanks. The enemy will have to unsiege or have his tanks kill each other. While he unsieges, you move in and attack.
- Drop somewhere else
- have more air units than your opponent: if you have the ground control you can easily defeat him in various ways (banshees, have viking land on top of tanks, Seeker missile from the Raven).
- Just expand and out-macro him.

@Cerlis, "Things people get to know after a while":
While i am definitely not a pro, i do know some of those things. I can tell you the ones on top of my head, and ask me for whatever you wish to know in particular; But really, play and learn :D
So, let me think of what you can need to know:

Have 16 guys mining minerals at each base. A couple more is fine, but 24 is definitely too much. (3 guys in each gas, ofcourse)

Expanding: What race do you play? Terran, right? depending on race and matchup there are very different strategies: For example, in PvZ Protoss can usually expand when they have 16-17 workers, while in PvP if you early expand you DIE.
I suggest you look up openings on liquipedia or watch pro games (you don't need to do that perfectly, just realize more or less what do you need to do).
Or just tell me what race you play, i can tell you one or two easy safe openings :)

So, other stuff.
workers blindingly attacking each other, SCV > Drone > Probe. But, if you're paying attention, Probe can run away for a while and regen his shield quickly and defeat the others.

One unupgraded marine barely kills one zergling, when both are just sent to attacking each other.

3 marines are more or less equal to a stalker (when they're just sent attacking each other) (Stalker can just kite and regen shield, though, since he's faster)

When defending a cannon rush, you need 4-5 workers continually attacking a constructing cannon to destroy it before it finishes.

Colossus can be attacked by anti-air units like Viking and Corruptor.
If you're not Toss and you play against Colossus, be sure to use viking/corruptor, otherwise Colossus deals a TON of area damage to your stuff.

ALWAYS research stim.

Learn the art of stutter stepping :D

Don't waste time on your starport for all those defensive units, get right on with double Medivac production/viking if you see colossus.

Also, Reactor takes the same time as a Starport.
So you finish your factory, have it start a Reactor and at the same time start your starport next to it. Both finish at the same time, lift the factory and have the starport lift and land next to the reactor to immediately start double medivac.

Medivacs with boost can escape Mutalisks.

Turrets are good, they give detection, have very nice DPS, and you can have your workers repair it during an attack.

[Again, i'm assuming you're Terran, if not then just tell me :D]

with Combat shield Marines survive one siege tank shot.

Keep up with upgrades, they're ridiculously important.

Scout, or scan, and try to make your army good against what the opponent has.
Marauder is awesome against all armouored units, you need marines and mines against mutalisk.

tanks are really frail, they die very easily.

I could go on for some time, but really tell me what you want to know exactly :D And tell me your race, i can tell you a vague idea of opening to do :)

Karoht

2014-01-08, 07:26 PM

There are plenty of ways to break a siege line:
- unsiege your tanks, then drop marines between the enemy tanks. The enemy will have to unsiege or have his tanks kill each other. While he unsieges, you move in and attack.
- Drop somewhere else
- have more air units than your opponent: if you have the ground control you can easily defeat him in various ways (banshees, have viking land on top of tanks, Seeker missile from the Raven).
- Just expand and out-macro him.
Want a lulzy way to break a Siege Tank line/cluster?

1-Get line of sight.
2-Drop MULE's.
3-Enjoy the fireworks, as your opponent SHREDS his own tanks.
4-Move in with Marines to mop up. Possibly unnecessary if your opponent ragequits.

I got to about 20+ uses for a MULE back in WoL. I'm honestly very surprised that no one ever uses them to drop in rapid repairs for things like Thors.

Cerlis

2014-01-09, 04:04 AM

*snip*

I have most experience with Terran (I did most of the campaign for Terran for starcraft one years ago and Normal campaign with only 1 loss before the final level. And that is with having no idea about control groups , how to select multiple units without click and dragging, and making the mistake of having the zerg mind controller but going to the ground level.). All their stuff feels Natural. I'm a big Lore-zerg fan and i love the ease of setting up their "turrents". Last time (i think it was against a.i.) i was a bit frustrated by the fact that lack of decent air units. My mutalisks died so quick, the other one can only attack air and the other-other one can only attack air. Though i learned my lesson when an enemy player tested and tested my ground forces forcing me to bunker up and then **ped my main base with the....ground attacking....air unit...things. And apparently Mutalisk regen is a thing? I know all zerg grow back but I only know about the major roach regen -when burrowed-with the research.

And that is my second thing. It seems like if i spend resources on researching early i have no resources to make units to defend myself from getting zerged (by terrans no less, though sometimes zerg. my 3rd game against a player i shortly lost about 5 mins in to a guy who i saw as my scv where getting hunted down and my barracks mauled had apparently just set a rally point to my base and was mass sending as many as he could) But if i play defense to get "necessary" upgrades (like cloak for banshee, or seige mode for tanks) then by the time i get swarmed in the end (by terrans, no less) they have 3 or 4 bases set up.

Sometimes i feel like i should focus on the small units (as i get swarmed by those alot) but then i get hit by yamatos. I remember one time i think against a player i'm not sure At about the usual time i get swarmed it involved like 3 walkers, a few force field thingies, alot of the shadow stalker-mini things and a freaking mother ship.

This one game i DID enjoy losing too had me eviserate half his offensive force he was massing near my base ( i realized later after he used his command center to allow his siege tanks to spot my siege tanks that i could have destroyed them with the same tactic. but i thought tank's range was same as visual fog of war range). Anyways later we where playing cat and mouse with me setting up air defenses and hunting own his cloaked banshee's. he finally used strike forces to take out all my detection (other than command center) and took out my base like that.

In a recent game with protoss against an AI. I was doing ok against a Medium AI. Basically eviserated anything that came into base for first 3/4 of game. My 2 assault forces to pick at his defenses got ended by marines (walkers and phoenixes got ate up) and their offensive force came and destroyed my second base being set up. Things i felt here, where that with the speed boost of protoss base i felt having 2 Starports and 2 armories was a waste. And i REALLY felt the fact that the only thing heavy that could attack both ground and air where those big air ships. (I dont have HotS yet). Stalker/walker just got owned by lots of marines and maraders. Phoenixes got owned by marines. Super laser things got owned by marines.

----------------

I'm guessing the biggest thing i can take from this is indeed to focus on medically backed up marines with stimpacks , backed up by maraders and keep control of them to Kite units and only lose marines one at a time. Or something.

-----------------

But yea, i can read all the abilities and get the jist of strategy but its stuff like.... not knowing that a siege tank's range is farther than a player's fog of war visual range. or that X unit has a high range and is DOG FOOD if fighting like a man, but killer when kiting. I mean like I love all the potential that all flying units have in regards to attacking enemy bases. But what is the point if every base has missile turrets and like 6 fliers to defend it. No point in dark zealots if i cant go on the freaking offensive and target all their detectors first....

beh.

Gandariel

2014-01-09, 12:10 PM

Ok, so i'll make it simple :)

The campaign is TOTALLY COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the actual game.
Zergs often build a second base as their first building, just for example.

I highly suggest you to watch some pro games and learn stuff like build orders, and what counters what.

But still, here's my tip:

Start building SCVs, and don't stop until i tell you :D
Build a supply depo, then build a Command center (you should be having 14-15 supply when you build it) and then a barracks. These three buildings should block your ramp (dispose them so that your ramp is blocked and safe from scouts or zerglings).
After barracks and command center finish upgrade both command centers into Orbital commands, and start building marines from your barracks.

After the orbitals are done, lift your Command center (the one on the ramp) and set it down at your natural. Build a Supply depo to block again your ramp.
Now have both CCs build SCVs. you'll always keep building SCVs with both bases until you have 16 in each mineral line. And don't forget to drop MULEs.

Now send a worker to scout their base. if it dies it's ok. Based on what you see, you can know what the enemy is going to do: bunkers/cannons? he's not gonna attack you soon. Zerg has three bases arleady? not gonna attack soon.
A swirling Spawning pool / very early roach warren? gonna attack you soon.
Zerg has no natural? gonna attack you very soon.
Terran has or is building 3-4 barracks? he's attacking soon.
Protoss has or is building 3-4 gateways? he's attacking soon.

Respond appropriately: you'll need to make more units and bunkers if he's attacking soon, obviously.

In any case, build (in whatever order you prefer) a Bunker defending your expansion, a refinery, and a second barracks. the first barracks is still building marines, mind you.
(Also, keep building depos when needed!)

You'll wanna add another gas refinery in a couple minutes, but it's not that important.

With your first gas, build a tech lab on your first barracks, and a Reactor on your second.
If you have extra money, build a third barracks.
As soon as your tech lab finishes, start Stimpack. You'll want all three of the upgrades eventually (maybe give your third barracks a tech lab so you can research two at the same time).

When you have 100 spare gas (you should already be having your second gas) build a Factory, then a Starport. From here on, it's really up to you.
A common thing is having the Factory build a reactor, then switch places with the Starport. As the starport starts building double medivac, the factory gets a tech lab and starts tank production.

Drop a scan on the enemy, to figure out what units they have, and how many. You'll want to adjust your composition to beat theirs.

Whenever you feel ready (as early as possible) move out, and fight. Terran can kite and run away if you're outnumbered, so you won't lose much even if you lose the battle.

On two bases, you'll eventually want five barracks, one factory and one starport building stuff. Also remember to build engineering bays.

If you've won a battle (or generally if you're not in danger right now) and have spare cash build a third base.
And so on.

One thing you may wanna do is load units into medivacs, and drop at your opponent, killing workers and key structures (spire, robotics bay, starport, etc)

I can't be more specific, you'll have to figure out your style on your own. Feel free to change or rearrange any of the tips here.

And hit me up if you wanna play me!

DraPrime

2014-01-11, 02:48 PM

Hey look, I got myself onto LAGTV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j6bH9P-5J0) (I'm the Protoss). Now I just need to get myself onto Day9's Funday Monday and I will have gotten onto my favorite SC2 shows.

Gandariel

2014-01-12, 10:30 AM

LOL, very funny game.

I was literally shouting at the screen at some point because you kept spending money instead of saving 400 for a nexus, but hey, still a LOLworthy game game :)

Cerlis

2014-01-20, 03:19 AM

well ideally what i was looking for where little tricks concerning the physics of the game that arent in tooltips or easily discovered.

For instance i just realized that after my first match that a ramp might allow line of sight, so i shouldnt necessarily put my barracks right behind my supply depot wall. I'm assuming that assessment is correct.

And then like any units that have particularly long range. Like i know vikings and that new protoss warship have longer than normal range, as do the brood lords (a recent ai game changed in my favor when i finally evolved some broodlords)

I know reapers are great for harassing stuff. But have piddly health. So i guess its not really possible to ever accomplish this with their main base. Probably for taking out extra bases they make that arent well defended?

Stuff like that.

Kyeudo

2014-01-20, 04:09 AM

For instance i just realized that after my first match that a ramp might allow line of sight, so i shouldnt necessarily put my barracks right behind my supply depot wall. I'm assuming that assessment is correct.

Ramps don't provide line of sight. Units have to be on the ramp to see to the higher ground. Most Terrans use their first barracks as part of their wall-in.

And then like any units that have particularly long range. Like i know vikings and that new protoss warship have longer than normal range, as do the brood lords (a recent ai game changed in my favor when i finally evolved some broodlords)

Other things with longish ranges: Siege Tanks, Carriers, Colossi, Battlecruiser Yamato Cannons, Nukes

I know reapers are great for harassing stuff. But have piddly health. So i guess its not really possible to ever accomplish this with their main base. Probably for taking out extra bases they make that arent well defended?

Reapers, in their current incarnation, are excellent early game harassment units. They move too fast to be pinned down by zerglings and zealots, regenerate health if out of fire for more than a few seconds, and are brutal against workers and most basic units.

Terrans rarely get more than five Reapers, though, because they don't do well in large groups.

Gandariel

2014-01-21, 04:52 AM

Also, don't bother using reapers for now. They require some micro.

When against terran, though, make sure you can defend one or two reapers.
If you're zerg, just make a queen per base ASAP and you'll be fine.
If you're Protoss, make a stalker and/or a mothership core ASAP and you'll be fine.
If you're Terran, you'll need 3-5 marines ready to defend.

Mutant Sheep

2014-01-23, 12:44 AM

Free Arcade. It happened. ... *never leaves computer again for all the HOTS -updated games he hadn't played in ages due to the expansion break*

Tectonic Robot

2014-01-23, 09:00 AM

Are all heart of the swarm units free for the f2p crowd, too?

Gandariel

2014-01-23, 10:55 AM

Mutant Sheep

2014-01-23, 07:54 PM

Free arcade! :D

Suggested games: Nexus Wars, Desert strike, IMBA LEAGUE (only on US server i think, but you can connect to any server from anywhere anyways), Aeon of Storms (if you like MOBAs), Raynor Party (lots of minigames) and my personal favourite, Micro Tournament(you have to compete in a lot of balanced micro SCII battles against each other).

Advice for IMBA LEAGUE: don't get huggerlords, they win every game. EVERY game.

(and it gets even more ridiculous if you have zombie mode on: Then they win every game even earlier)Generally agreed, though i prefer Hero Attack to Aeon. Aeon is far too LoLish to really justify itself, and its almost as elitest.

IMBA League should almost always have zombies, theyre just too fun.

There are some personal favorites of mine (Marine Arena, Phantom Mode), but they aren't very wide in their appeal base.

BobVosh

2014-01-24, 10:08 AM

Are all heart of the swarm units free for the f2p crowd, too?

If you play with a friend who has the expansion, yes.

Cerlis

2014-01-26, 05:42 AM

Spent about an hour trying to look through Arcade games i might enjoy. Most of them are multiplayer though. The few that werent and tried had a que and where actually multiplayer. I tried one, died horribly at the beginning and stopped (2 of the reviews said it was bad. well one said it wasnt good, the other said it was horrible). I dont know. there are so many games, half of them are the same thing and others sound so confusing the descriptions themselves dont seem to tell you anything about the game.

I guess i just wish Starcraft Universe would come out already :(

(though i'm considering doing the DBZ RPG, and if you can replace the units with sprites you add to the game yourself i need to find out about that so i can tell my friend who would be very interested in such a thing.)

ShneekeyTheLost

2014-01-26, 11:38 AM

LOL, very funny game.

I was literally shouting at the screen at some point because you kept spending money instead of saving 400 for a nexus, but hey, still a LOLworthy game game :)

Hey, at least he was SPENDING his cash. I've seen some games where both players were sitting on 2k+ resources and doing nothing with it.

BobVosh

2014-02-15, 12:20 AM

Anyone want to play Sunday, in the evening US time?

Gandariel

2014-02-15, 04:11 AM

I would, but that means late night for Europe..

In other news, the best Starcraft pick up line EVER:

Hey, did you use an extractor trick?

Because you're 11/10 !

BobVosh

2014-02-15, 03:50 PM

What time would be convenient for you? I work nights, so typically I sleep until 5pmish central but I'm off Sunday so I could get up early.

ShneekeyTheLost

2014-02-15, 04:19 PM

I would, but that means late night for Europe..

In other news, the best Starcraft pick up line EVER:

Hey, did you use an extractor trick?

Because you're 11/10 !

I suppose that beats:

"You must be a Queen, because all I wanna do with you is inject some larva into your Lair."

Gandariel

2014-02-18, 03:05 PM

I also heard a fun one about performing a Baneling bust all over your face. I mean base.

Kyeudo

2014-02-18, 05:41 PM

So, I've gotten back into the swing of things playing for a while. My build orders are outdated and out of practice, so I do stupid things like misread bio as mech and end up feeding mutas to marines, but I can still out macro most people in Silver and win by just having more stuff.

Anyone still up with the meta enough to explain the major builds going on right now? At least vs Zerg.

Gandariel

2014-02-19, 01:56 PM

ZvT => Ling/bane/muta (/infestor-ultralisk in the late late game) against Bio, roach/hydra/viper/infestor against mech
ZvP => roach/hydra, of heavy mutas and just enough lings to survive. Also, mass Swarmhost works (get many queens!)

ZvZ => Can't help you, sorry. Mutas are always good, as are roaches in the early game

Kyeudo

2014-02-19, 02:54 PM

ZvT => Ling/bane/muta (/infestor-ultralisk in the late late game) against Bio, roach/hydra/viper/infestor against mech

Question: Why is ling/infestor considered not good vs bio?

ShneekeyTheLost

2014-02-19, 05:05 PM

Am I the only one here who puts a Reactor on a Factory to either crank out spider mines (defensively) or Hellbats to tank for my BioBall?

Karoht

2014-02-20, 03:30 PM

Not the only one. Loves my Hellbats. Widow Mines are hit and miss for me.

Silverraptor

2014-02-20, 04:18 PM

I'm just sad that tanks have taken the back seat in most terran strategies. I actually like them better than mines, even though mines do shoot up.

ShneekeyTheLost

2014-02-20, 09:23 PM

I'm just sad that tanks have taken the back seat in most terran strategies. I actually like them better than mines, even though mines do shoot up.

Yea, the whole reason I like mines is that a couple can take out a drop BEFORE it actually drops, losing everything IN the drop as well as the vessel itself.

Of course, try putting your tanks right behind mines. They try to charge the tanks and get blown up for their troubles. Not perfect, of course, but that's why you've got marines mixed in with your tanks, right?

Tanks and mines are for different situations. Tanks are for artillery duels and leapfrog advancing to slowly push an opponent back. It's the 'take and hold properly' thing.

Mines are more of an anti-snipe method. You leave a few around your bases where surprise sneak attacks are likely to occur to discourage things like Fly By Muta or Surprise Warp-In.

The former is an offensive unit which can push effectively when combined with sufficient anti-air. The latter is an anti-harass defensive unit.

Gandariel

2014-02-25, 07:14 PM

Oh god.

I just came up with the most stupid-but-awesome-if-it-works-thing.

Blinding Cloud + Fungal Growth + banelings = kill anything!

Kyeudo

2014-02-25, 08:02 PM

Blinding Cloud + Fungal Growth + banelings = kill anything!

You'd need to drop the Blinding Cloud first, or the tanks/mines/marines will kill the Infestors as they advance. Even then, you only have 1.5 seconds where they can't run or shoot back, so the Banelings would need to be hot on the Infestors' heels. Very micro intensive and very gas heavy.

Deliciously satisfying if you pull it off though.

Gandariel

2014-02-26, 10:32 AM

I'm sad i'm not decent enough at Zerg to try that. Would be hilarious.

Still, Banelings + one of those two things are still good 8 i think

Karoht

2014-02-26, 10:50 AM

Oh god.

I just came up with the most stupid-but-awesome-if-it-works-thing.

Blinding Cloud + Fungal Growth + banelings = kill anything!
Tricky to pull off, but highly effective.
Even with just a bunch of speedlings (IE-You don't have time/gas for banelings) or some Hydra's spitting at them from range, its quite effective.

Ionbound

2014-03-07, 10:52 AM

Well, I've been watching Totalbiscuit play Ladder and Day9's old Newbie Tuesdays, and I have been inspired to start trying to SC2 again. Behold, my first build of delicious cheese:

Note: This does not include Supply Depots beyond the first two, or timing. I'm not that good at builds yet, just wanted you guys to tell me if this is even viable. Also, everything after this point is theorycrafting.

Supply Depot
Barracks
Supply Depot
Double Gas
Tech Lab
Factory
Tech Lab
Starport-Move to Factory's Tech Lab
Orbital Command
Command Center
Orbital Command
Expand to Natural
Double Gas
Bunker
Bunker
Starport
Tech Lab
Starport
Tech Lab
Tech Lab
Fusion Core
Weapons Refit
Armory
Vehicle Armor 1
Vehicle Weapons 1

The idea here is to build Marines until all three Starports are producing BCs. After 3 production cycles, you have 9 BCs, which ought to be enough to melt just about any AA your opponent throws at you, especially with Marine support. However, since this is a very, very cheesy tactic, it relies on the element of surprise, so the initial wall-off is very important. The nice thing about it, is that if the initial push doesn't work for some reason, it's theoretically fairly easy to transition into Mech or Bio.

Kyeudo

2014-03-07, 11:26 AM

Terrans usually start their Barracks before their second depot and use it as part of the wall-in.

Why do you get an add-on on the factory when you aren't going to be using it for anything? Shouldn't it be building your starport add-ons for you?

This build seems very gas intensive. Are you sure you can support producing three BCs at a time on two geysers?

When do you take gas in this build?

Ionbound

2014-03-07, 11:52 AM

Terrans usually start their Barracks before their second depot and use it as part of the wall-in.

Yeah, I just messed that up. It should be the typical Terran wall-off.

Why do you get an add-on on the factory when you aren't going to be using it for anything? Shouldn't it be building your starport add-ons for you?

It should, but it's there to make it easier to transition to Mech should it be necessary. Although it's probably better to have the factory's Lab be last, all things considered. But, like I said, this is something I haven't optimized a whole lot, I just want to know if it's viable.

This build seems very gas intensive. Are you sure you can support producing three BCs at a time on two geysers?

When do you take gas in this build?

I totally forgot to add an expo and refinery timing. I'm editing them in now.

Kyeudo

2014-03-07, 12:14 PM

It should, but it's there to make it easier to transition to Mech should it be necessary. Although it's probably better to have the factory's Lab be last, all things considered. But, like I said, this is something I haven't optimized a whole lot, I just want to know if it's viable.

If you are planning for your tactic to fail, it will fail. Go big or go home.

If you need to transition to mech, swap the factory in on a techlab after you've decided BCs aren't cutting it.

I totally forgot to add an expo and refinery timing. I'm editing them in now.

You are trying to build a Tech Lab before you take gas. This is physically impossible.

What matchup is this build for? How are you defending your natural from hellions/banelings/zealots?

Where are your orbital commands?

I'd skip Weapons Refit until you actually have some BCs floating around. Yamato isn't useful right away.

Ionbound

2014-03-07, 01:14 PM

Like I said, I don't know a whole lot about builds. This is just an idea I put together that needs a lot of refinement, but I'm not sure how to actually add the refinements it needs, notation or timing wise.

Kyeudo

2014-03-07, 01:38 PM

Try it against an easy computer opponent. Do your best macro, so don't forget to build scvs, build depots on time, build out of all buildings as constantly as you can, and so on. That will get you the basic timings and show you if it is actually economically feasible.

Gandariel

2014-03-09, 06:37 AM

I think you *should* be able to support three starports on two bases. Not sure of how many depos/marines you'll be able to fit in though.

Try to do it against the ai and time yourself. When you get your first x BCs, what can an enemy have? do you stand a reasonable chance to beat it?

ShneekeyTheLost

2014-03-09, 12:15 PM

Ionbound

2014-03-09, 12:57 PM

Are BC's really all that viable? I don't see how their damage output is really worth the cost and tech tree to get them. Corruptors eat them for lunch. So do Blinkstalkers if you have an obs to spot for 'em. It's almost impossible to get them in sufficient quantity to be viable.

That's sort of what I'm trying to get around by rushing. BCs are so far out of the Meta for the reasons you listed above, the idea of this is a more-or-less shock, and getting the BCs in before they realize what's up. That is why the walloff is so, so important, because this definitely is relying on the element of nobody ever playing BC, and maybe not getting enough AA up before you can slip in the cruisers.

Grytorm

2015-01-21, 12:23 AM

Well I decided to try Starcraft II because it was an opportunity. And I probably will buy it at some point. Any advice for which race to flail around with while I fail horribly?

Silverraptor

2015-01-21, 12:29 AM

Well I decided to try Starcraft II because it was an opportunity. And I probably will buy it at some point. Any advice for which race to flail around with while I fail horribly?

Which one would suit your style more? Do you like deathballs or having mobile fast troops moving around? Each race plays differently.

Grytorm

2015-01-21, 01:06 AM

... :smalleek:

Questions. I am no good with questions, because I am bad enough at most games (not that bad, but most E Sports I lack a lot of experience with) the answers I would give are nonsensical. But actaually thinking about things gives you your own answers, so I should probably go Terran because it relies less on special powers and Marine Marauder is at least decent. I know to build Probes and Pylons and will focus on that.

I have improved a little from when I was younger, when I get to playing I will actually try and use hot-keys.

Silverraptor

2015-01-21, 02:05 AM

Gandariel

2015-01-21, 03:59 AM

As for race, Terran is fine. Protoss is fine too, for Zerg you need some more dedication/talent.

Best way to learn: go easy.

Start with an incredibly simple build.
Some say, try ONLY MINERALS.

Never build gas geysers.
Just build bases, depos, barracks, and mass marines. win with those.
It's obviously a stupid build, but one that does win if you macro right. Also, this is mostly to learn how to keep up with macro: Keep building depos without supply blocking, keep your cash low, control your army, expand.

A couple quick things:
Don't worry if you get supply blocked sometimes. It happens to everyone.
when you see you have too much cash spend it. No matter how. Seriously.
Build 10 depos, 6 barracks, or 3 new bases if you want. The point is, SPEND ALL OF YOUR MONEY.

Then, slowly add Marauders, tech lab upgrades, regular upgrades, medivacs.

When you feel good enough start experimenting (mech, drops, etc). Also, try to adapt your build to the opponent (build marauders against stalkers and roaches, hellbats against zerglings and zealots, etc)

Also, ping me for a game if you want!

On sc2 => FleetBacon number 241
On bnet => Ciabatta #2958

Silverraptor

2015-01-21, 04:14 AM

When people say spend your money, unless you are specifically saving for one or 2 crucial things, they really mean spend it. There is no such thing as saving for your kids collage in this game, because in the future, all the collages have been nuked, vaporized, or infected with tentacles, so use that money. There is no worse feeling to losing to your enemy when you have 2-3k of minerals in the bank unused.

ShneekeyTheLost

2015-01-21, 08:56 PM

Starting off, don't try to get fancy, and don't worry about complicated tactics. Start with the basics. They will be the foundation upon which you rest your future strategies. But if your macro skills are off... it won't matter how fancy you get, someone with good macro is going to stop you cold most of the time. If you want to compare this to martial arts, then consider your macro skills to be your stance and breathing work. Without a good stance, you have zero chance of winning any kind of competition. Period. Will not happen.

I would suggest starting off against a computer AI. Not because it is good enough to give you a challenge, but because it is bad enough that you can concentrate on your first steps here. Basically, the AI is your punching bag, not your sparring partner. You're going to be watching yourself in the mirror and working on your basics. By the way, I cannot stress this enough, WATCH YOUR OWN REPLAY. I've had so many that I thought I was doing pretty decent with... then I watched the replay of the game, and I absolutely cringed. As an observer, you aren't so focused on everything, and you get a chance to step back and see where you need to improve.

As others have said, start off with the basics: Resource management. Getting a solid mineral supply line, and making damn sure that you spend your cash. If you have more than three hundred minerals at any point, check to see if you have missed any opportunities to expand your military. Odds are, you have. If all of your production facilities are full AND you STILL have a resource surplus, that means you may need more production facilities.

Start with building and growing your infrastructure, when you see your supply one or two off from cap, send out an SCV to build another one. Make sure your mineral field is fully saturated. Produce barracks and marines. Then more barracks and even more marines. Then some more barracks and more marines. Or rather, make some barracks and make sure that every single bunker is ALWAYS producing a marine BUT not more than two in the queue including the one currently in production. Trust me, that's not as easy as it sounds, but it is so essentially critical to learn as a skill, because that same skill will be pressed into building other units as well.

Oh, and please, avoid the rookie mistake I made that set me back enormously that I had to un-train myself: DO NOT QUEUE UP A TON OF UNITS. It's like not spending resources, only you don't have that financial reserve on hand either. Basically, the worst of both worlds. Assume your buildings can only queue up one unit in addition to the one it is building, never exceed this. Get into the habit now, and it won't bite you in the ass later.

Grytorm

2015-01-22, 12:18 AM

Yeah tried multiplayer. One game against a gold level player and one against a newb. Lost the first easy but, although it was a complete stomp I could have done worse. Against the newb, I did win. But the real question is it better to be the newb who builds 20 SCVs and keeps the money low or the newb who floats 30000 minerals?

Also, it is interesting that I might fix the little things rather than the big gaping wholes in my gameplay. Such as not building more buildings to make stuff. We need orks in this game.

ShneekeyTheLost

2015-01-22, 12:34 AM

Yeah tried multiplayer. One game against a gold level player and one against a newb. Lost the first easy but, although it was a complete stomp I could have done worse. Against the newb, I did win. But the real question is it better to be the newb who builds 20 SCVs and keeps the money low or the newb who floats 30000 minerals? The answer to your question is: none of the above. Keep cranking out more units until you steamroll your opponent.

Grytorm

2015-01-23, 11:50 PM

Hmm. Why can't I see early drone production on the build order screen for the recaps? I am trying to figure out how I am being crushed effortlessly so I just want to know I guess.

Tectonic Robot

2015-01-25, 02:56 PM

I've seen Battlecruisers used in hyper lategame sky terran comps. A build which utilized them was showcased by Day9, one time. Battlecruisers, banshees, and vikings, working together to control the skies.

Gandariel

2015-01-25, 03:38 PM

yeah, but that's more like late late late LATE game.

@Grytorm: feel free to add me / ping me for a game if you want to practice or you want me to tell you what to improve on

ShneekeyTheLost

2015-01-25, 09:27 PM

So, any thoughts about the new expansion? Looks like the devs are wanting a more micro-intensive combat, so you can't just A-Click your way to victory. Which is a very decided change from the past two expansions, where you could pretty much A-click through the entire campaign. Hell, the first campaign, all you needed was marines, marauders, and medics... the very first three units you ever get. From there, form bioball, put foot to arse. Same thing with the zerg campaign... roach/hydra escort around Kerrigan, and proceed to curbstomp. Supposedly, the Protoss campaign is going to be a tad bit more difficult to micro-manage. Not just the macro of keeping resources coming in and used, but the actual combat. Like every other unit is a caster unit of some sort, or at least has an ability that needs to be activated to function.

Looks like they are trying to attract more of the top-tier players back rather than cater to the casual gamer. That's gonna cause some real rude and abrupt wake-up calls.